Joe Rogan Experience #2314 - Hal Puthoff

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. All right. All right. Now, hey, what's happening? Oh, lots happening. Really? Lot. Thank you so much for being here. I'm very excited to talk to you. Um, I've been thinking about nothing but that since that dinner that we had a few months ago. Oh, yes. Thinking about it a lot. Yeah, you told me a lot of crazy Stuff. So, yeah. Well, it just seems like that that's been my my thing in life is get involved in

the crazy stuff no matter where it comes from. When did that start? When did you start getting involved in the crazy stuff? Well, actually, I began early on. I was uh, you know, a ham radio operator as a teenager and I went to vocational school. I didn't think I'd ever go to college or whatever, but I got all involved in uh learning about uh radio Uh transmission and all that kind of stuff. So, I finally, okay, I'm going to go to college and and uh really concentrate on electrical engineering and physics and all that kind

of stuff. But the weird stuff actually began uh kind of by absolute accident. At the time I was uh involved at uh Stanford University getting my PhD. Uh I was just doing cool things. I had I'd invented a broadly tunable infrared laser uh one of the first of its kind. Even got a patent as a graduate student. Wow. and uh co-authored with my thesis advisor uh uh textbook graduate level textbook fundamentals of quantum electronics published in English, French, Russian and Chinese. So I was I was on a cool role just doing the normal physics kinds

of things. But interestingly enough, once I was there writing a graduate level textbook, I realized, you know, There's something I don't know. And that is what about consciousness? What about living things? I mean, is it still just atoms and molecules all the way down? We just don't know about it or are there some additional fields or whatever? So it turned out I came across uh uh some publications by a polygraph expert who taught polygraph to the CIA and FBI and so on. And one day on a lark he connected his polygraph up to his plants

and he saw signals coming out That looked like what you see out of people and then he decided to threaten the plant like he would a person and he got a big response. Whoa. And so he then went on to connect up a couple of plants to polygraphs and he would find that if he affected one the other one would respond. So I thought okay well maybe this is some new fields that we don't include in our physics. So I came up with what for me was just a pure physics experiment. Uh I was going

to grow some Algae culture split it up put half of it at a laser link site far away and zap the local culture and see if it responded. and I could measure velocity propagation so on. So I sent that off to this polygraph guy, Cle Baxter is his name. And so he said, "Well, that that'd be a cool experiment." Well, here's one of these things where your life takes a lefthand turn, totally at random. He goes to a cocktail party in New York City and There he runs into Ingo Swan who turned out to be

so-called psychic famous artist but fellow that did remote viewing so-called and so he invited him over to his uh to his uh lab and said see if he could affect the plants and so on. While he was there, he saw my uh write up about the experiment I proposed, which for me is just a pure physics experiment. And so he then wrote me a letter and said, "Well, if you're Interested in the borderline between animate and inanimate physics, why deal with algae culture? They can't tell you anything. You should be dealing with somebody like me."

Well, I mean, I couldn't care less about dealing with quote a psychic or whatever, but attached to his letter, he had a big uh report that had been generated at City College in New York where he' done some experiments where he would raise and lower the temperatures of temperature, Sensitive temperature measuring devices across the lab. And so I read that and I said, "Well, that's that's pretty interesting." So Justin Alark by this time I I' I'd headed over to Stanford Research Institute to do my to do my laser work. So anyway, I invited him for,

you know, a weekend just to see what else he could do. And of course, I talked to all my physics colleagues and said, "Oh my god, these guys are all frauds and charlatans. You better you Better know what you're doing." Well, it turns out that I had a great experiment for him because we had an experiment set up at Stanford that was a very sensitive quantum chip inside of electrical shielding, inside of magnetic shielding, inside of superconducting shielding, completely acoustically isolated from the environment. No way anything on the outside could affect that little chip. They

were only looking for quarks and stuff like that. So anyway, I brought Him over to the lab. I said, ' Remember that thing you did with the with the uh thermisters there at City College in New York? Well, this is sort of that like that on steroids. And so he said, "Okay, well, I'll see what I can do." Well, it turned out he generated all kinds of signals in in that little quantum chip. And of course a graduate student whose life depended on this not being you know affected by anything outside said well maybe there's

some bubbles in the Hydrogen line or something something but no he was able to do it but what was most interesting was and I asked him well how'd you know what to do he said well I didn't know what to do so I just looked inside looked inside through all this shielding and and he drew a diagram of what was inside there that never been published and he said, "Well, this is when I put my attention on it." That just happened by accident. So, you drew an accurate diagram of all the shielding That you had

around this equipment and the little quantum chip and its circuitry deep inside. And when you say he was able to affect something, what in particular was he able to affect? Uh, well, in general, there was a big oscillating signal coming out of the thing that ran about 30 seconds or so. And then when he affected it, it just stopped oscillating. And then like and then he said, "You want me to do something Else?" And then he made it oscillate fast. And that's when the quant with when the graduate student sort of went berserko. And uh

so he said, "Wait, let let me see what's wrong here." And he couldn't find anything wrong. So he said, "Well, I'm sure that was just some kind of coincidental glitch." And he did it again. And so he said, "Okay." He's doing it exactly when he's saying he's going to do it. Exactly when he say he's going to do it. But anyway, the reason I'm trying to get get around to answering your question was that I then wrote this up and circulated around to other physicists and pretty soon the CIA come landing on my doorstep and

said, "Oh, have we been looking for you?" And I said, "You know why?" Yeah. Well, they looked in my background. and they saw that I had uh between my uh master degree and PhD, I'd been a naval intelligence officer at the National Security Agency, I had lots of uh high Level clearances. And he said, you know, we have a problem. and they popped a big report down on the desk about like that and said, "Look, the Russians has been spending millions of dollars at their best institutes trying to use ESP for espionage purposes." And we

don't know how to evaluate it. I mean, no scientist in America even believes there is such a thing. And yet you did this experiment And it looked like this guy could actually get inside this device and describe it and affect it and and here you're at SRRI. We have lots of black black projects here anyway. So we'd like we'd like to check him out. Uh can you can you bring him back and let us come and do some experiments with them? And by the way, we're hoping that we'll find this is just all BS and

uh we don't have to think about it and that'll be the end of that. So anyway, brought him back. They spent a day hiding things in the boxes and envelopes and he would describe what was inside and uh they were totally blown away. So they said, "Okay, we want would like to give you a little project here. I know 50 or 60K and see what else he can do." So anyway, that's how I got started on doing quote weird stuff. And so as that many would know that project ended up being very productive and it

went over uh more than 20 years and so on highly Classified level and well maybe we'll get to that separately because I think the UAP stuff is kind of more interesting to to start with but anyway that's that's how I got started in in weird physics you might call it and then sort of like in Ghostbusters. Well, if you got some difficult problem, who you going to call? I'll put off. There I am. So, what other things did you do with Ingo? So, he was able to affect the oscillations. So, he able to affect the

Oscillations. So, there's some he had some sort of an ability. Did he describe first of all like what this ability was, how he perceived it? He said that for some reason, starting when he was a little kid, um he would, you know, try to focus on some news item or whatever and he'd suddenly get some kind of picture in his mind about what was going on and later he would check it out and it turned out to be correct. So he just said, you Know, I just he stumbled upon remote viewing them, right? But remote

viewing and then being able to interact with the equipment and change the oscillation seems very different, right? It is very different. And uh as we might discuss later, I've got some ideas about, you know, what some of the quantum mechanisms might be involved in that. But anyway, as far as the CIA was concerned, they were most interested in this ability to see through shielding. And they said, "Does that mean if we have all kinds of classified documents and a superconducting safe, the Russians might be able to, you know, reach in and see them?" And so

that that that's what they were most worried about. And so anyway, did you find out to be true? That started a whole program when we found out that uh it was true that uh we started out doing what you would think, you know, just hiding things in the next room. and can you describe them and Stuff like that. And uh but then he got bored. He says, "Well, if you want to know what's in the next room, go look. You want to know what's in the envelope or the box? Open it up." He said, "So

he said, "Uh, well, you know, what do you have in mind?" He said, "Well, just send somebody out into the San Francisco Bay area and I'll describe where they are." And so that's how what we call remote viewing program got started. We started doing Experiments which each I gota I got to say I I I I I resisted this stuff every inch along the way because as a physicist I had no idea how this could possibly be. But nonetheless we began working with him. uh our lab director who's always concerned about was this some kind

of hoax between the subjects and the experimenters and he'd make up a long list and store them in his safe and we'd go get an envelope out of the safe leave SRI drive to wherever the envelope Said and he would give give a description. That's how that whole program got started. When you are experiencing this and you're initially very skeptical and you start seeing these results, what kind of a shift does that have in your world view? It was very challenging I got to say because as a physicist and as a quantum physicist where I've,

you know, written equations for all kinds of interactions, I had no clue how anything Like this could possibly be. And I'll be be honest, I still don't really have a clue about exactly what's what's going on other than consciousness seems to be expandable out into the environment in a way that we don't usually uh consider could possibly be the case. You know, there there are people who get into meditation, all that kind of stuff, but none of that was uh in in in my background. And so I just found this a challenge and uh it

was only That CIA was paying us to look into this that I kept going the next step resisting every inch along the way. To give you an example um along the way there was a little bit of uh PR in the newsprint newspapers about our exper experiment. So, we began getting people calling in and saying, "Well, I have some of that ability, too." And and whatever. And so, uh, one of the people that came along, uh, that way was Pat Price. He was, uh, ex police commissioner Burbank, and he said, "You know, when we were

solving crimes, I would get an image of where the culprit might be hiding, and it would turn out to be correct. So, maybe I have some of this ability." Well, I I had no reason to necessarily believe that, but it turned out that right at that moment, we were being challenged by the CIA to prove this wasn't just some kind Of a hoax between the experimenters and the subjects. And so they came up with coordinates because as it turns out when we sent people out to a site and Ingo or somebody else had to describe

it they would describe not only the site as being observed by the outbound person but also what was inside the building and what was on top of the building. So we suddenly realized okay that person is just a beacon. It's not that he's sending something back Telepathically. So once we realized that Engle Swan in his neverending challenge uh said well just give me coordinates you know latitude and longitude and degrees minutes and seconds and I'll look wherever that is and tell you what I find. So in fact uh okay I found that hard to believe

also but we did a lot of experiments and started targeting on things. Anyway Pat Price shows up. We do some local experiments and he's doing very well as Well. And so again, our CIA contract monitors are worried that there's some kind of, you know, trickery trickery and and so that so they came up with coordinates of what turns out to be right next to Sugar Grove facility, which is a highly classified NSA facility picking up Soviet satellite transmissions. So I just I I had no idea what it was. I mean, we always kept ourselves blind

to what the target was so no one could say. We just gave him The data. So Pat Price uh decided to, you know, to follow our instructions and go to those coordinates and say what he says. And so he describes this place. But as part of that, what he does is he says that he merged his mind, whatever you want to say, into a safe and a whole bunch of words popped up into his mind. So he gave this whole list of words. Okay, fine. So he wrote them all down, sent them off. Pretty soon

the entire law enforcement Apparatus of the country landed on us and said, "How'd you get this information? this is highly classified project titles. Do you have a source inside? And no, we were we're just doing this experiment and that's what he got. And so eventually 20 years later, you can find the the paper that was published by the CIA about what a deal this was. And so anyway, at that time, we were at a point we're about ready to get the next year's contract. And we had Um a deputy director uh John McMahon said, "Okay,

well, let's not waste it on our science for God's sakes. Do a Soviet site." And so they gave us coordinates of a Soviet site. Turned out to be an R&D facility at Semipalatinsk in the Soviet Union. And so we targeted Price on that. He turned out to be a really a good remote viewer along with Engine. And uh he described this giant crane that rolled over the top of a building and uh I mean It was it sounded like science fiction. I I've got some examples here of the drawings of that. And so uh it

turned out that from satellite imagery what he drew was correct. And so that finally started. Okay, this stuff is real. It can be used. Let's go to work with it. So, that's what started the whole, you might say, espionage oriented uh SRRI program on remote viewing. It went for, I don't know, like 23 years or so. What are the Meetings like when you're explaining this to the CIA and you're showing them results and you've got these, you know, hard-nosed individuals who are pretty rational, right? Trying to figure out what you're saying. This episode is brought

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no stores. You can switch to Visible right from your phone. It only takes about 15 minutes. And then you Manage your plan in the app. Ready for wireless that lets you live in the no? Make the switch at visible.com/rogan. Plans start at $25 a month. For the best features, get the new Visible Plus Pro plan for $45 a month. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. There really basically two levels of response. For example, some of the early work when we went to to to brief uh we had 10 or 12

people and We're talking about the work. Pretty soon a guy in the back of the room jumps up and he says, "I know what this is. This is some kind of scop test of our gullibility and I want you to know whoever's, you know, putting this out, I'm not buying it." And he stormed out of the room. So that that was one response. But there's a second response we got which uh turned out to be interesting. At a certain point after we had done a Number of years of successful work in in doing the remote

viewing, we had to keep briefing higher and higher. As you can imagine, I hated briefing higher because if you brief a highle guy and he says, "Oh, come on. This is nonsense. This is BS." You know, that's the end. That's the end of your programs. So I got to the thought point where for example uh I briefed uh Bill Casey who was director of CIA under Reagan and we had 45 minutes with Him and so went through stuff like I've been describing for 45 minutes he got so entranced with it that he dismissed the rest

of his afternoon calendar and we spent five hours briefing him on that. So there was this funny thing where a certain level of people would just h this this can't be and then really high level people seem to be more open to it. So actually we came up with a hypothesis and that is okay people who make it to the top of the Food chain might be people who at some level inside themselves are you know they're always making decisions based on insufficient information and they end up making the right decision. That's how they got

to where they are. So maybe this is uh some aspect that's at least at the unconscious level happening all the time. Well, that finally got put to a test because there were some parasychologists who did some experiments uh with a meeting of uh CEOs Of I think it was 67 CEOs of major corporations and had them try to guess the numbers that were going to be generated on a computer the next day. And so they did that and it turned out that those who scored quite positively significantly so when we interviewed them it turned out

they were the people who had the businesses that were really doing well and the people who scored poorly had businesses that were kind of failing. So these uh investigators would Ask them well you know what uh are you using do use ESP or something? Do you have some glint of the future? Said, "No, no, no, no. I don't believe any of that nonsense." But I realize that when I trust my gut instinct, I'm usually right. So anyway, that sort of leads to the eye that this this is a a broadly uh available phenomenon that Yeah.

Do you think that this is an emerging aspect of human consciousness or do you think that this is something that maybe We developed a long time ago but lost because of communication because of the written word because of our ability to express ourselves that we stopped communicating with the mind. I think your second uh interpretation is is is the correct one because probably you know when you're out in the jungle and there's a tiger coming down the trail that you don't know about quite you know it would be a thing that you Would could really

help you exist and survive. But once we get into language and technology and so on, you know, that sort of nonetheless, we we found I'll I'll tell you what was the most mind-boggling thing in the whole program was the following. We had a few people who did really well. So, of course, CIA wanted to know, well, we we'd like to find people in CIA who could do this. So uh give us a full Medical roundup of these people. So we got a full medical including seven layer brain scans. Uh and they came back and said

well these are just normal people. So oh well may maybe it's psychological or neurological or whatever. So they did all those experiments and they said these are just normal people. So we wondered well does that mean that normal people could could do this even if they didn't know about it. So about that time Uh we said okay well let's let's just bring in some people from SRRI uh labs uh who never thought about ESP who never thought about any of this stuff. So I remember we had a woman Hela Hammed and we asked her to

uh come uh volunteer for an experiment. She said what kind of experiment? said, "Well, it's sort of like an ESP experiment." And she give me a break. I don't I don't believe in that stuff. And okay, but but do it anyway. And so, uh, one of the first experiments We did with her, and we have a wonderful diagram of of of what she did, we sent somebody out by our usual random protocol to a overpass over a freeway that's uh, all fenced in with a very interesting structure. And she made a drawing of all of

that and said uh, you know, this kind of trough up in the air, but it's got holes in it, so it couldn't carry water. there's something going by really fast. I mean, she really nailed the place. And So, we got the idea, and that was the biggest discovery in this whole thing was that apparently, as with say, athletic ability or uh musical ability, there's a bell curve and you got superstars at one end, you got duds at the other, but to some degree, anybody could do it. So that had a lot of uh outcome later

on in the program when finally well to give an example of a real world world Result a Soviet plane went down somewhere in Africa. That's all we knew. Somewhere in Africa plane went down. So Stansville Turner who was Carter's uh CIA director knew about our remote viewing program. And so he said, "Uh, well, you've got these quote, remote viewers are supposed to be so good. Why don't they find the plane for you?" So, in fact, uh, we had a remote viewer at our lab and at that time we were working with uh, Wright Patterson Air

Force Base, Foreign Technology Division. They had a remote viewer. So, we target these two remote viewers. All they knew is a plane went down somewhere in Africa, hundreds of thousands of square miles. And uh make long story short, they describe how it looked and put an X on a map that was 3 miles from where the plane landed. We were told that would never be revealed to the public. But it turned out that after Carter got out of office, he was giving a speech in uh Georgia someplace and somebody said, "Well, anything happened while you're

present?" That was really strange. He, oh yeah, we there Soviet plane went down in uh Africa and was full of electronics and we wanted to get it and nobody knew where it was and the satellites couldn't find it because of all the vegetation and but we had some remote viewers so-called and they pinpointed where it was and we went in and got it before the Russians could find it. So I mean the Real world consequences came out of this stuff. So when Carter said that, was that a breach of confidence? That was a breach of

security. But a president can they're allowed to do that. They're allowed to do that. Don't tell Trump. Right. So So you the the United States was able to go and get this jet and Right. So by then TU Tu22 bomber I think it was. Yeah. So this has realworld uses. So this this remote viewing so do they invest more time and more effort Into this now. Are there still skeptics? Well, we pretty much handle the skeptical problem. And let let me let me give you an example. I mean, as we're turning out these results, as

you can imagine, anybody, you know, didn't have direct knowledge of this would would be skeptical. And rightly so, by the way. I mean, I was skeptical every inch along the way as we plowed our way into this stuff. So, one day, uh, a guy shows up From CIA and says, "Okay, uh, I'm here to find out what the fraud is. I'm sure this is absolute nonsense." So, I said, "Okay, fine. So, show me one of your experiments." So, you know, we put him in the lab with an interviewer and another and a remote viewer. And

uh in this case, I'm sent out someplace and uh for 30 minutes and I come. It turns out that the remote viewer described it really well. And he said, "Well, you probably told him where you're going to Go." Uh let's do another experiment and I'm going to go and we'll go in my car because you might have had a you know transmitter in your car transmitting where you're where you're going. So I'm going to pick the side. So we do another experiment, get a great result. So finally he says, "Well, I got to figure out

what's what's wrong with this." So my colleague Russell Tar and I sat down to know this guy's a hard case, but we got the bell curve. Who knows? Maybe somewhere in the middle of the bell curve. So he comes in the next day and we say, "Okay, um, today you're going to be the remote viewer." And he said, "Give me a break. I don't believe in this BS. He said much more strongly than that actually. And I said, "No, okay. Well, just just try it. You'll see we're not stressing him out and whatever, whatever, whatever."

And he says, "Okay." And uh when you go to your place, I want you To take pictures and do a recording, and when you come back, show me your stuff before I show you mine. Okay, fine. Well, it turned out we went to a playground with a merrygoround. Meanwhile, back in the lab, he's drawing a picture of a playground with a merrygoround. And he sees the results and he says, "Okay, you've convinced me." So, it was that kind of thing that would push him Over. Yeah. There there's an example. Now, he misinterpreted what it was.

He thought maybe it was a cupula or whatever. But anyway, that's his drawing on the right and that's where we were on the left. And so he said, so so he went back to CIA and said, "Okay, this stuff really works." And uh he became one of their star remote viewers over the years. Wow. So a skeptic became one of their remote viewers. Yep. Sure did. What is the process? What is the process For a person to remote view? Like is there a state that you have to go into? Is there a method to getting

into that state? There is a method and it's different from what you might think. You might think uh you would say to somebody, okay, we've got somebody to decide kind of imagine where they are and see what it looks like and tell us what you find and all that kind of kind of stuff. They're usually wrong when they do that because their imagination Comes into play and they make up something or whatever. But what we found out in the research, you it took years and a lot of trials was that you get a visceral response

to a site. It's not that you get necessarily get an image. So in fact, we we we told them, you know, if if you get an image, just put it down the right hand side of the paper because it's probably wrong. Instead, just kind of put down your feelings as you get into the site. And so, you know, If it's like water, they might do waves. Or if it's a mountain peak, they might uh, as Jacques described in one of your previous broadcasts, uh, a mountain peak, and they just feel like drawing something like that.

So, bit by bit, the process is very much a visceral feeling process. And so the training procedure has them sitting with pads of paper and just making sketches and drawings and not trying to interpret what it is. And also being very uh not in a rush about It. It's sort of like you've got a door and you drill a hole through and then drill another hole through and another hole through and then finally the door crumbles and then you've got a pretty good feeling for what the side is. So, so the process that we use

to train people involves this multi-stage process where they're to go by feelings, colors, flashes of things. You see a flash of piece of metal, don't try to turn it into a car or a bicycle or whatever. So Anyway, it was a whole training procedure that we developed and eventually when we uh briefed uh the assistant uh chief of staff for intelligence, assistant director of intelligence for the army, they said, "Okay, well then we need to have our people get involved in learning how to do this." And so they sent army intelligence officers. They picked out

a bunch of them and said, "Hey, you've just Volunteered to become a psychic spy." and say, "Oh, okay." And they sent them out to SRRI and we ran them through this step-by-step training procedure and they learned to do really, really well. I mean, u Joe McMonigle, who anyone who follows the literature is is known to be really an excellent remote viewer. And so, uh, give you an example. Uh, one time he said, I mean, we trained them and and and and so they learned to do really Well. We set up a whole program and uh,

he said, "Okay, the there's this site in the Soviet Union and they're making this unbelievably giant submarine and it's made out of titanium or something. I mean, it's bigger than any submarine that anybody's ever heard of." And it's strange because the missile silos are on the top rather than along the sides. And so I gave this whole description. Of course, we had to at That time we were briefing all the way up the National Security Council. And so they looked at this. This is this is nonsense. But about a month later out rolls this unbelievably

giant submarine, the Typhoon class submarine, the largest submarine ever made. Uh indeed uh there are his sketches and a lot of description that went along with his sketches. There's a submarine on the right. And so finally the people of the National Security Council said, "Okay, We better start taking this seriously." So, make a long story short, he eventually Joe McMongle got a uh National Merit Award uh for over 200 great viewings he did for CIA, National Security Council, uh FBI, I mean, you name it. So, anyway, that grew into a whole industry. This episode is

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of a mis mystery even to you. Even someone who has studied this for this long, you know that it works, but you're not exactly sure how it's working. Is that a fair assessment? That's a fair assessment. I mean, when we as physicists, we hate to Say, "Oh, don't have a clue." So well we now know there's so-called quantum entanglement which is that things are seem to be connected at a quantum level across great distances and so the easy answers well it must be quantum entanglement but you know that doesn't just words it doesn't really tell

us how it works but but to give you an example we wondered how far you could go so we did an experiment again with Ingo Swan who was such a really top level remote Viewer to view Jupiter, planet Jupiter before the flyby, before the NASA flyby. And uh so he did and he described Jupiter the way anybody might, you know, red spot and all that kind of stuff. And but he said, "But but there's a thin ring around Jupiter. I wonder if I went to Saturn by mistake, but I really see a ring around Jupiter.

And nobody knew about any ring around Jupiter. Carl Sean happened to Come by in the lab. He said, "Oh, what do you think of this? We we got this result." He said, "Ring around Jupiter? That's nonsense. There's no But when the NASA flyby finally got there, it turned out there was a ring, small ring around Jupiter." And so we got that in publication in in a book we wrote about all this stuff before it was known in in the scientific community. So that's what we find out that Apparently even distances is not a big deal.

The other thing the other thing we wondered uh I can tell you what it isn't. Okay. We thought maybe it was brain waves. The Russians came up with an idea. Well, brain waves are low frequency, long wavelength. Um, they can seemingly get through some some aspects of the environment. So we came up with a series of experiments and one of them was okay let's let's put our remote viewers on submarines take them to the into the depths of the ocean because it turns out seawater is highly conductive and so at the even at low frequencies

even at brain wave frequencies uh it would be a complete shield for that. So we we we piggybacked on somebody else's experiments, Steven Schwarz's experiments using remote viewers to go find archaeological wrecks and uh shipwrecks and so on, which turned out to eventually be a successful experiment. But anyway, we got to do two experiments. We got pristine results even with them under there under the ocean water. So we know it's not ordinary electromagnetic functioning. So we can strike one thing off the list. Not that we know what to put on the list in its place

other than you know it's It's it's got to be some new field some quantum aspect that we don't understand. Jen, we don't understand but yet you could repeat it. But we could repeat it. Wow. Now I I'll give you I'll give you another example of of of the skepticism that we got. And and by the way I I can't blame them. Uh we had some psychologists at uh SRRI and they said uh you've got that stupid ESP experiment stuff going on and you know this is going to ruin our Reputation. People think that we're you

know we're a non we're a nonsense place and so it's hurting our reputation. Of course they didn't know it was a highly classified CIA program. So anyway uh so our director said well what do you think? I mean, h how would you know if this is false or whatever? And he said, "Look, make a list of all experiments, places that have been uh investigated for those viewings, and don't tell us which ones go with Which ones, and we'll try to rank rank them for each place." And so they did that much to their chagrin. Seven

of the nine were first place matches in a nine experiment series. Give you another example of of and by the way I I I can't I can't complain about uh the skepticism. I mean even as we're doing all this uh we haven't lost our skepticism about how how could this be. Um, but we finally we got into a spot where the only thing that was secret about this program was that it was secret. People heard that we had these people coming in and doing experiments, but we weren't publishing anything. So, I went to the CIA

contract minor and said, you know, you you've got to let us publish something because the only secret about this project is there's a secret project. So, if we publish something that that that'll handle that. Did you want to do that to get more scientists involved? Yes, that was our personal uh right aspect so that if there was actual data, more people who were on the outside skeptical would say, "Well, hold on. Why am I skeptical? Maybe perhaps there's something to this." And then you start considering your own life. These moments of intuition, weird coincidences. You're

thinking about someone they call you. Yeah, we All have this idea that there's something there, but we don't know what it is. And but we're very skeptical of someone who tells us that they can do it. And that's that's reasonable to to think that way. And so in this case where we got permission to publish something since we're engineers Russell Tar my colleague and I are you know engineers and physicists we wrote it up for the uh proceedings the le e institute of electrical and electronics Engineers. This is an engineering journal where we had published

technical papers. So I said well we have a better chance there. Sent it off to them. the editor was head of communications at Bell Labs and he comes back and says, "Well, I don't I don't know." And we said, "Why are you getting bad reviews?" And he says, "Well, actually, I'm getting good reviews, but one really heavy hitter just gave me a one-s sentence review saying, "This is the Kind of thing I wouldn't believe in even if it were true." What does that mean? So, anyway, we said, "Look, look, I I understand your problem. look,

let us come and present this stuff to your engineers. If they throw tomatoes, okay, don't publish our paper, but if they like it, then then publish it. So, we went to Bell Labs, presented our data. The engineers were all excited trying to figure out what the mechanism could be and so on. So, we figured we Were home free. He said, 'N I I still So then we pull out our trump card as always, which is, okay, look, do your own experiments at Bell Labs. Pick people from your engineers. Pick people from your offices to be

to make up lists of targets. Pick people here to be your blind match group to see if they can match them up. And if you get results like we got, then publish it. If you don't, don't. He said, "Okay, that's that that's fair." So it turns Out he did the whole thing, got the same kind of results we got. Our paper got published 1976 proceedings of the Ile E. And so that suddenly got other people saying, "Okay, well maybe there really is something to this." So it turns out that for those who follow the field

know that Robert John and Brenda Dunn, Robert John was uh head of engineering at Princeton. He had a student who wanted to do these kind of experiments and he thought it was nonsense but they came Out and heard our briefing and he went back. Long story short, he set up a I don't know 20-year program uh completely replicating our remote viewing work and also doing uh effects on random number generators that were quantum driven. And so so the so-called PAR lab, Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab, replicated all of our work. And so pretty soon it

it's all over the place. So, by the way, at the end of the uh sort of cold war there where there was a Day taunt, some of our remote viewers went over to Russia to talk to their remote viewers and they traded war stories. They they uh lived through the same kind of kind of thing. So, there it is. It's so interesting that we almost didn't consider that. Just imagine you not running into Ingo Swan. You not asking him to affect that quantum chip. Imagine where Russia's doing all this stuff and the United States never

gets Involved in it at all. That that could have happened. That could have happened. I mean, it was really, you know, the tiniest flip of a coin that that that happened. So, so what that means is uh for me personally is that even though I had no interest in in all that kind of stuff, this totally random event happened and then once I've built up a reputation for being willing to take on things that are impossible, then that's why uh when the UAP the UFO issue uh Kind of rose up again, who you going to

call though? Al put up. Al I I get my call. So what was the initial introduction to the UAP phenomenon and when was this? Well, there was an early introduction in uh 2004. Uh well may maybe a little earlier in in the 90s I was doing work for Robert Bigalow at Bigalow Aerospace and uh in addition to his you know aerospace stuff he put Two units uh circling the earth and he made the uh module that got attached to the space station all that kind of stuff. but he was also very much interested in UFOs

and that kind of thing. And so I was I was uh you know involved with him. And around that time I had gotten a call from somebody I knew in Washington DC, head of a think tank. Uh I can't name him, but he said, "Uh, I need you to come to Washington to be part of a Little project, a little briefing." And I said, "No, I don't have the time right now. I'm just I'm just too busy." He says, 'Look, come and it'll be the most important meeting you've ever had in your life. Well, since

I had him calibrated because I had done other work with him and for the Navy and so on, I said, "Okay, I I'll I'll come." So, so I showed up there And I saw people some of whom I knew, including my ex-contract monitor from CIA, people from DIA, uh, a lot of military people and so on. So, he sat us all down and he said, "Okay, here's the deal. Here's why I've invited you all here. Let's just say he says that the United States, Russia, and China have obtained ET craft that have Crashed and we

have proof of that. Bodies that aren't human. And so the question is, can this be released to the public? What effect would it have? So I and and the other people, I found out by talking to him later, we thought, "Oh, this is cool. I mean, maybe we can get, you know, some kind of disclosure here." And uh so he said, "Here's here's what we're Going to do. We're going to make up a list of what would be affected in the culture with this kind of a disclosure. And by the way, at this point, we

still didn't know is is he saying that that's true stuff or is he this a hypothetical or anyway? So anyway, make a list. So we came up with a long list like I don't know 60 items or something. You say, "Oh, wow. uh Stock market might be affected, religious might be affected, uh you know whatever government government affected, policies be affected, you know, politics would certainly be affected and then for each item we had to go give it a score from plus 9 to minus 9 as to how intense the effect would be and whether

it's positive or negative. So anyway, we broke up into groups and our group had our list of eight or so. And so we went Down our list and it turned out that we ended up saying getting negative numbers. And let let me let me tell you why you you can get negative numbers. One of the things down toward the bottom of the list and we really got into the weeds was well suppose materials from a crash retrieval of a non human craft was given to corporation A but corporation B didn't get any samples and then

years later corporation A is making lots of Money based on what they got meanwhile corporation B has gone bankrupt and and Then they find out they were excluded. Well, they're going to end up suing the corporations, suing the government. I mean, it really gets gnarly when you get get into the weeds and into the details. And so, as it turns out with our group of eight or so, we said, you know, this this we get a negative number. Well, it turned out that all the groups got negative numbers. So, the outcome of That exercise was

if you're thinking about disclosure, forget it. That's Was this during George Herbert Walker Bush's? No, it was during Bush 2. Bush too. George Bush, rather. George Bush. Yeah. W. Um, so when this was all going on, you still didn't know what they had. Didn't know what they had. This was just they were saying this could be hypothetical or he could be trying to tell us something, but he wouldn't say. So interesting. And how long how much time did they give you to compile this list and to generate these numbers of plus and minus? It was

two or three days. I I don't uh recall right now. How did you attribute numbers to things like the stock market? How did you figure out how that would be negatively or positively? You know, it was just a gut response basically. Uh you remote viewed it. No, no, didn't do that. No, but did you? By the way, in the remote viewing Program, one of the things they told us, look, you guys that are running this program, don't you ever think about remote viewing yourself. We learned in the LSD days that if the experimenters get involved

in the subject they're researching, they lose their objectivity. And don't think you can sneak away and get away with it because we'll get you on the polygraph. And so, so no, never never did. Don't remote view yourself. What What a bizarre thing To tell someone. That's what they that's what they said. So So anyway, but anyway, back back to this uh we so we came up with our numbers and and said, you know, this does not look like a good idea. So at that time, that that was the viewpoint. Now, as we'll get into at

this point, I have a different viewpoint. I think there should be more disclosure than than uh is apparent in Well, I think that's that's much more common much more common. thought is more More common with not just academics but even government people even government people right I think more in fact I have I have a great example of that and that is uh Edward Teller father of the Hbomb uh involved in the Manhattan project you'd think if anybody wanted to keep secrets about national security it would be him one of the strongest statements he made

which actually was kind of a driver in my shifting my viewpoint about well Should we come out with this or not he said you know in exploring uh nuclear energy we had the Manhattan project highly classified but nonetheless we and the Russians kind of marched along step by step but in electronics we didn't classify electronics you know circuit boards and all that kind of stuff and we took off like a rocket and left Russ Russia in The dust So his viewpoint was that having more openness even in national security areas is a better bet. And

so that made me think even though I'd been part of, as it turns out, decadesl long, highly classified not for the street UAP investigations. uh that that sort of affected my thinking about it and I became more uh open to the idea that uh you know we Should do that. So but the way uh the way I I got actually more officially involved was that as it turns out in 2008 I think it was Harry Reid who was at the time Senate Majority Leader. uh Daniel Inui from Hawaii, Ted Stevens from Alaska. Uh they're part

of the gang of eight, so-called, so they get better briefings than most people on what's going on behind the scenes. So at that point, you might Think, well, UFO stuff, I mean, that's all dead. Let me give you a little background first and that is you know back in the 50s and 60s we had project sign project grudge project blue book and then they had the condant committee at University of Colorado examine the area and say uh he came out with this thing saying oh there's nothing here it's not not worth the air force spending

any time on it actually the Condan report if you read it there's a Deep report showing all kinds of reasons why this is real. And then there's the forward which most media read in which he said, "Oh, nothing here. Don't worry about it." So after 1969, which is when that report came out, if you called uh Air Force uh public affairs off and said, "Well, what's going on with UFOs?" Oh, no, no, we give up all that stuff. uh back in 1969. The truth of the matter is that the very memo that cancelled Blue Book

by General Bolander Uh had down the fine print, but anything that might affect national security, we should keep track of. So, so now we come up to, you know, 2017. These senators who knew that there was still stuff going on decided there should be a new program. And so they asked uh the top physicists at DIA, Jim Latsky, uh who is one of the top physicists on propulsion and rocketry and so on to put out a request for proposal. And so that Went out and so actually Robert Bigalow picked it up and he said, "Okay,

we'll we'll do this." And so, uh, he then got the program and since I'd been involved with Bigalow, he asked me to be part of the program. So, that's when I got, you might say, officially involved in and really digging into the the issue. And what was your perspective at that point? So, you you had this thing during the George Bush administration and what was your Perspective after that conversation? Did you think what maybe they do have something the crash Roswell site maybe something else? Did you know more from other talking to other people? Had

you heard whispers? Like what did you know? What I knew was not much. I mean yeah I heard whispers. Uh but I didn't get you know really involved in in thinking about it. I mean, you know, a good physicist realizes this is tinfoil hat conspiracy Stuff, you know. But you had already had experience with remote viewing seem already got that problem. So uh but when they came up with the idea we should do another deeper dive into this and by that time I was uh you know I mean as a physicist I mean through the

years I mean I was a Star Trek fan and you know Star Trek fan and all that kind of stuff and uh as a physicist uh I would hear about these UFO sightings and So on. So, I always wondered about, you know, how how how can this uh you know, could somebody really have any kind of propulsion that that would look like that? And so anyway, uh so when this program got set up, it turned out my particular assignment was okay, let's look at all the physics and engineering that might be behind this stuff. And

by the way, we will arrange for you to get access to some Materials. Uh okay, fine. So that that was my tasking and so I said, "Okay." So I can't get into a lot of detail, but I did uh do a lot of uh back and forth with some aerospace executives about getting access in case they had any materials and that kind of stuff. And it's very So they finally said, "No, it's uh if that were the case, it would be too compartmentalized. We we we can't share This even though you have an official program.

I mean, you got Top Secret, SCI, Gamma, HCS, it's got all these clearances, but if we had materials, it'd be too highly classified. We We couldn't share them. Geez. So, a lot of negotiation went on. I'm a lot of time with the vice president unless there's something to negotiate about. Exactly. If there was nothing to negotiate about, you'd say, "How? We don't have materials." You Wouldn't say, "You don't have enough clearance for us to even discuss this." Exactly. And so already they're tipping their hat. They're already tipping their hat. So anyway, the second uh place

to go then was okay, they're not going to share their materials. I'm almost assuredly have them. Um suppose they had shared them. What would we have done? Well, we would have gone to subject matter experts all around the World. We'd give them some materials. We'd say, you know, this came from a Russian sub or, you know, whatever. Give us your best output and so on. So I said, "Okay, since we're not able to get materials and share them, um, let me go to all of the subject matter experts that we would have gone to and

say, we're doing a survey for Bigalow Aerospace. He wants to know where were your field Be in the year 2050." So, we figured, okay, we'd get the best sort of assessment of possible futures for their fields. And and uh I realize you probably don't uh have immediate access to this, but just to give you an idea some of the papers that we got by going out to these people. I mean, and you'll see how serious we were. A neutronic fusion propulsion, superconductors and gravity Research, posetron aerospace propulsion, warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, advanced nuclear

propulsion. Jamie's got it up here. Yeah. So, so this is just the first few of 38 papers that I uh arranged for leaders to to come up with. So this is based on projections from where technology currently sits to if you extrapolate where it's going to be in 2050 based on what they're working on, right? Spacetime metric engineering, traversible wormholes, stargates. So you see, we weren't uh kidding around. Well, when you started getting the warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, brain machine interfaces. Now, did you ask any of these? So presumably, this is just me

from a civilian's perspective. Presumably, you have some sort of a crash thing, you have to bring in people who make spaceships. You have to bring in people who Make military jets, advanced propulsion systems. Exactly. That's those are the people that would be able to the people we had uh working on those papers were people from those communities. How did they ch this is the the conundrum that if they did disclose and the companies that weren't given access to these materials did fall apart and that the companies that got access to these materials advanced and had

spectacular businesses. How do they decide who it Just assuming you would have something? How would you decide? Was it based on relationships like knowing that someone could keep a secret? Like cuz you're dealing with outside the government now. Presumably if you if you have a defense contractor, they're that's an independent company. It's not necessarily even though they work handinand glove with the the government, they're not necessarily a part of the government. So So in fact, if you put Your thinking cap on, you would say, okay, this would be the way if you want to keep

it out of the public because you don't have to disclose it. Yeah. You don't have to give it to a contractor. Say, "Okay, this is this is your stuff and uh from now on you own it." But how do you control that though? You you'd have to have government agents embedded deeply in that, which I assume they do anyway. But you'd have to have intelligence agents deep I hope they do Deeply embedded in these defense contractors where they would make sure that they maintain some sort of intense level of secrecy. That's exactly right. And uh

when you think about okay uh these days well suppose we have some kind of disclosure uh what are these companies going to do? They've been hiding things or various parts of the government been hiding things um misappropriating funds lying to Congress lying to Congress. So it's You can see why it's such a big problem at this point. Well, that was that um disclosure documentary that uh I saw you in as well that appeared at uh South by Southwest, which was excellent. What is it called? It's called uh The Age of Disclosure. Amazing documentary. It's amazing

documentary. Really hope that gets released somewhere big like Netflix or something like that. So people Well, I think uh I think Dan Farah, who's the uh director and producer of that, by the Way, a very well-known producer, you know, he he collaborated with Steven Spielberg on Ready Player One, which is the big hit, and so on. And the approach he used which is really very clever uh he contacted people like me people uh like Lou Alzando on and on and on and uh said you know many of you don't want to come out really and

reveal too much podcast by podcast by podcast. So tell you what my goal he says I'm going to Approach 38 of the maximum insiders and by maximum insiders I mean it includes people like you know Senator Rubio of course secretary of state um Clapper who's you know and I'm going to get all of you to collaborate on saying what your involvement was to agree you can and you know, not say something and they ended up going to jail. And uh and then we'll put out maximum disclosure evidence all at one time in This film and

it'll include uh people coming forward like Jay Stratton who is head of the UAP task force. Uh he's been involved in this field for 16 years. By the way, he has a book about to come out also, which will really be a disclosure. So, anyways, we'll put this together. We won't talk about it along the way. And so, 38 of us ended up being interviewed for the film. Um, telling whatever role we felt we could tell. So, In fact, when that film comes out, that that's going to be disclosure on steroids. I think that's going

to be the maximum. And well, you saw the film, so you know, it's it's pretty pretty revealing. It's very well done. Yeah, very well done. So, for your own personal journey into this stuff, you're initially introduced to it because they're talking about disclosure. You rate the pros and cons and then when do you get introduced to it again? Well, it was when basically when Robert Bigalow uh got the contract that uh Harry Reid and the other senators uh asked. And how many how much time has passed? Well, that was in 2008. So, a couple and

so that went up through 2012 and then ATIP, which you may have heard of that Lisando ran sort of picked up there to keep the ball rolling forward. And now it's been revealed by the way uh only only recently that when The funding dried up, it dried up for the reasons you might think of and that is it was so highly classified that when congressional statements came down that okay we need so much money for this it didn't actually describe it was just advanced propulsion and all that kind of stuff. So another group picked up

the money and said oh well that's what we're working on propulsion things So you know but it wasn't the real deal and so you know what do you do at that point do you go now wait a minute this was really for this well no then you'd be re revealing what this was really for so so anyway that sort of uh ended that way but anyway so based on that we then as a group went to as a turns out the department of homeland security to set up a whole new program and uh it was

going to be a special access Program. It was under a name which can now be revealed because arrow the advanced aerospace or let's see advanced anomalies aerospace resolution office has revealed it. It was called Kona Blue. And uh we built up a stack of documents that would go to the ceiling here about what needed to be done, what we were going to do, how it should be done, who should be involved. Uh so at this point, you're convinced that this Is a real phenomenon. At this point, I'm convinced that there's a real phenomena. I mean,

you know, how far can I go? I mean, I can I I can say I interacted with, for example, Dave Grush that you've had on your program before who is really a highlevel intelligence officer. People in the public can hardly have any idea how high a level intelligence officer he was. He prepared briefings for the president. He was uh top UAP investigator for NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office, and then transferred over to NGA, the National Geospatial Intelligence Office, and so on. And so in that role, he was asked, he was an official part of the

UAP task force, asked by Jay Stratton to find out what's going on behind the scenes at these superclassified levels. And he did. And uh so that's why, you know, he eventually came out in that August 2023 congressional hearing under oath saying, "Yep, I've talked to more than 40 people who are directly involved in the program." Well, I know Dave. I know many of the people. I know many of the programs that uh he's involved in. And so, there really is something to it. And uh it's only a matter of time before it comes out. I

don't think I don't think you can put the toothpaste back into the tube, frankly. Well, it seems like people don't want to. Uh, and I think there's so many more people that are Openly discussing the possibility or what this is, maybe not even the possibility of it, but but addressing that there's something going on. So, what is it? Is it interdimensional? Is it intergalactic? Like, what is it? That's that's just such an excellent question because the problem is there's an embarrassment of riches these craft you know which in the old days you Know farmer in

the fields that someone was streaking across the sky and you know I don't know what to think you know you could sort of blow it off but because our own detection equipment has really marched up into unbelievable sophistication. Uh and so now we have these really advanced sensor systems. Fleer forward-looking infrared radar, high quality radars, satellites. Ratcliffe has ad Mention has has admitted that satellites have picked up uh evidence of these of these craft and these craft have interfered with uh military exercises as we all know from uh say the Nimtts and the gimbal and

the go fast videos that you know made it out into the public in in 2017. Um, so it's it's really out there now at this point that there that there's that there's a reality here. And so, Uh, that's where we are at this point. One of the more spectacular ones you um talked about the Nimtts, the the Commander David Fraver experience. So they're flying over the water out outside of San Diego outside San Diego and they think they see something below the surface and which is large and then this 20 foot tic tac looking thing

that's hovering over the water that seems to turn towards them and recognize that they're uh it jams their radar. It Does something to block their ability to detect it. They have it on screen. They have video of this thing. There's eyewitnesses of this thing. They track it on radar going from above 50,000 feet down to sea level in a second. They they don't know what it is. It takes off at an insane rate of speed. It goes to the cat point where they were supposed to meet up. So, they have all this data about this

thing that behaves in a way that's impossible with our current Understanding of propulsion systems, right? And of course in the program we interviewed uh the pilots about their experiences and so on and and so you can't blame a pilot. He says look this thing was at you know 80,000 ft or whatever when he first detected it. Suddenly it's down there right above the water and then it takes off and does a right angle turn at Mach 3. Uh you know this stuff is just way beyond our physics. Of course to a physics nerd Like me.

So yeah now wait a minute if it's real it's physics. right? Can't be beyond our beyond our understanding, but it's beyond our engineering. So, in fact, in that series of uh papers I showed you that the 30 38 papers, by the way, um there's a little side story there. It's interesting. And those 38 papers were then posted. None none of these people who generated those papers had any idea it had to do with ETSs or UFOs or whatever. Uh they all went up on what's called the Jaywick server. It's classified server for the Pentagon and

uh intelligence officers and aerospace contractors uh you know could get access but nobody in the public could and usually those things go up and they're up for you know a little while and a month or so and they take them down. This was such a popular set, this 38 papers, such popular set that everybody screamed every time they tried to take it down. And so it was posted there, you know, like forever. Uh but eventually uh through Freedom of Information Act and so on, most of those papers have have have uh been released. And I

I was concerned that oh my god, these guys are all going to call me up and say, "What? You didn't tell me this had anything to do with ETSs or UFOs or but actually no. Nobody seemed to uh yeah not not complain about it. So back to the question that you mentioned a little Earlier though about you know what's the source of this? Like I said it's an embarrassment of riches. There's so much observation uh you know the idea that it may be a scout coming by from some other planet and checking us out and

heading off uh or whatever. I mean there's much more than that. And of course, as you know from interviewing Jacqu Valet, he dug into the literature and found out, you know, you can go back millennia and see Descriptions of exactly what we're talking about today. So as as far as where they come from, what they're doing here, I myself have written a paper called ultraterrestrials where I try to cover the gamut and I cover everything. Yeah, they could be spacecraft from some other galaxy whipping through here. Uh or maybe there's some Atlanteans left over from

Eons ago. and they're just kind of hiding out in the seabed or on some mountain range someplace. Or maybe some ET group uh showed up here thousand 2,000 3,000 years ago and they're hiding out with some bases locally and so on. Uh and of course we have a fellow by the name of a professor by the name of Masters who who thinks that well maybe it's uh time travelers from the future coming back. And then there's the whole idea since physicists like to talk about In additional dimensions you know maybe they come from another. So

anyway then in my ultraterrestrials paper I list every one I can think of and say you know we should be exploring all of these. So at this point I would say we know it's NHI non-human intelligence but it's not clear what the source is. maybe at a higher level of uh classification than I had access to. Maybe it's it's known. But right now, I I'd say we we we don't Do you have a Suspicion? I guess my suspicion that it's likely non-human intelligence from some other galaxy or far out in our own galaxy that have

come here but some time back and that there are stations here. Uh, you know, I mean, one of our remote viewers that was that was really good came up one day and said, "I was looking around and and I think I found a UFO Base on Earth." This is during the remote viewing era. And uh, you know, oh my god, I've I've got to report this to my CIA contract monitor. Do I want to tell him that? And so I did. And the play one of the places he came up with some but one of

the places he came up with was uh Mount Zeal in Australia. And so my CIA contract monitor says well I know this station keeper CIA station keeper out in Australia. I think I'll call him and uh I won't tell him why I'm asking but I'll ask him about Mount Zeal area. So he gave him a call and he said uh I'd like to ask you about that Mount Zeal area. He said, "Oh, you mean where the UFOs are always flying around?" Whoa. So, I thought, "Oh, gee." You know, so I Anyway, I This was from

Pat Price. I I take him seriously. Let me give you an anecdote. I mean, I know it's hard to believe that this some of This stuff could possibly be real. But here was a real game changer for me. One day Pat Price during the remote viewing program came in the office and he said, "Uh, I got bored last night." So, I started looking around and I decided to look at the Oval Office. And as I kind of did my way around the Oval Office, I realized there's something in the Oval Office that will harm him

and he will not get through his second term. And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh my god, you know, I have to report that to a CI contract man, which which I did." And so they sent a team over and looking for, you know, hidden microwaves, hidden toxic substances, and they didn't come up with anything. Of course, as we now know from history, it was the tape recorder that did him in. And he couldn't make it through a second term because he So this is during the Nixon administration. Nixon Administration. Oh, and so interesting enough when

he reported that to oh my god that means um Spyro Agna will be president because he was the vice president and he says no he goes first. Now it turned out he did go first because of some money laundering scheme. So when I sit down and try to say, okay, what are the statistics of having somebody see that a president is going to make it through His next term and his vice president is not going to take over because he goes first. I mean, the odds of that, I mean, there just no doubt that that

that means it's really something. Well, especially when you consider Nixon was one of the most popularly elected presidents ever, right? I mean, he won by an enormous margin. That was the whole where the vice president's or the the other uh candidates vice president had electroshock therapy that hadn't been Revealed. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it turned out people were very concerned that he was mentally ill, but it was too late to replace him. They didn't know what to do. They finally replaced him, but it was too late. That's right. I remember that. Yeah. That was a

big part of the whole thing. So now one thing you may be surprised to learn and you you you've asked me from time to time well you know what did I think as I'm facing into all this Stuff we obviously as physicists think about time going forward reasonable way and as I mentioned the Princeton lab got involved uh Robert John at Princeton was very good in quantum theory and so on. And he knows that in quantum theory, time is kind of a slippery slope. Uh you know, we have the space-time metric and the possibility of

maybe seeing something in the future or something in the past. And so he did a series of remote viewing experiments very much like like what we were doing, but sometimes he would have somebody go to a site and then wait a week and have somebody describe where the person went or he might have somebody describe where a person went, but the person didn't go until a week later. And so he did a lot of experiments which by the way were good enough. He also got it published in the proceedings of the ITLE E Institute Of

Electrical Electronics Engineers a couple years after our paper like 78 or so. And so it it turned out that the results either looking a bit into the future, a bit into the past didn't uh the results were just as good. So that sort of helped solve another problem for us because we were always uh I mean I can't blame the skeptics coming forward. In fact our our favorite phrase is as far as remote viewing goes there are two outcomes. People Investigate it know it works. people who don't and know it can't and that sort of

so anyway you know a big thing that we always got pushed on was well if these people are so psychic why aren't they rich why aren't they at Las Vegas why aren't they doing silver futures or whatever so well it turned out I had a chance to test that because uh as it turns out my wife uh Adrien Kennedy was uh on the board of uh a new uh grammar school that was being set up in the Bay Area where we were at the time. And uh so I uh was trying to raise money because

they were about $25,000 short. And so uh I uh went to a wealthy dentist I knew of and said, uh you know, would you mind giving $25,000 for this school that's just being set up? We're short. And he says, "No, wait a minute. I know who you are. You have that ESP program over at SRRI, don't you?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "Tell you what, I do Silver futures. If you can get your ESP people to tell me what's happening each day the next day in silver futures, I will follow what you tell me."

And uh and I'll bet on it and see if I make money based on that. And tell you what, whatever money I get, I'll give your school 10% of what I make. and don't worry if I lose money I won't charge you something. So anyway, that that was interesting. Well, by now in the program, we recognize that okay, there's The bell curve sort of anybody can do it to some degree. So, I simply went to the board of directors of the school and uh said, um, we're going to go into silver futures to make our

missing $25,000, but I'm not going to ask you what you think the market's going to do the next day because that'll depend on what you've read or what you hope for or whatever, whatever, whatever. We're going to do something different. I'm going to pick a couple of objects, objects that are very different from each other. I'm going to label one of them mark it up. I'm going to label the other one mark it down. And I want you to describe to me today the object I'm going to show you tomorrow, which would depend on what

the market does. And so, uh, okay. And for a crash course, I gave him this Uh shortened version of how, you know, don't don't try to image it, just try to get it's a visceral thing. How do you feel about it? What is the sort of texture of it? And so on. And uh Jamie, can you can you pull up that uh first of the it shows the uh the figure wooden figurine and the uh tape measure if you could show that. Yeah. So on a given day I have two objects and of Course they're

different as they can be in case you get a lousy description or whatever. So on a given day, that's a couple of objects I picked out. And I labeled the one to myself. I labeled the one on the left, mark it up, the one on the right, mark it down. But they have no idea what my objects are, right? So the next day, you get the following slide. That's the last slide. Do you have the following slide? Um, I Have I have a previous slide. Yeah. Is that it? Is that what you're looking for? That's

it. Okay. And so, uh, I had seven viewers and on this particular day, five of them didn't turn out much, but one of the viewers said, "I've got something all squirreled up in a can, all wound around, and I hear the words one, two, three," said rhythmically. Tape. Oh, yeah. The second guy, same thing. and cans all something all around it. So that's what I go with. Anyway, Make a long story short, 30 days in the market, we made $260,000 for the investor. We got our 10% which is $26,000. So you got a bit of

a bonus there for the school. Why didn't you guys keep going and get rich? Well, that I know everybody asked me that. The truth matter it was it was almost a 24-hour a day job to do this. And meanwhile, we're back over at the lab training army intelligence remote viewers how to how to remote view. So, Uh, clearly that wasn't your ambition. Your ambition wasn't to get rich, but you proved your point. I proved my point. So, so now when going into the future, you're you're reasonably certain that these things this is a real phenomenon.

Do you ever get access to these materials that you were discussing earlier? Did you have you ever seen anything? Uh yes I have. Um one example I can talk about one sample I can talk about is uh Are there things you can't talk about? There are things I can't talk about. Right. But there's there's one sample I can talk about which you could put up on the screen. That would be that this right here. It's right here. Yeah. Right. Uh it turns out that uh an army uh person said that his grandfather had been involved

in picking up debris from the Roswell Crash and and so he sent it uh of all places he sent it to Art Bell of the of the radio podcast the great Art Bell. So Artbell turned it over to Linda how Linda Linda so she's you know got it and so she said she'd make it available and so on. So about this time uh I had already had my viewpoint shifted as I say by Ed uh by Edward Teller about you know we should have more uh openness going on. And so in fact Tom Dong came

along and uh you know the punk rock bleak 182 and said uh you know we we we should be by the way this is before even things came out in the New York Times in December 2017. He says you know I've been talking to people at some aerospace corporations and they're saying how hard it is to get students to do their engineering and come to work for us. And so he said, "Well, you know, if there's anything to quote the UFO area, you know, maybe it Could generate some interest that way." And so, long story

short, he got Jim Simovan, now retired high level person at CIA, got me. Keep that up, James. And so, uh, so anyway, we started to the stars academy of arts and science. And so we were part of what was behind uh helping Leslie Keane get that story out in the New York Times to to break out that something was really going on behind the Scenes. Back to this material. This anyway on this material layered she had came up with this material. How big is this what we're looking at? Oh, it's about it's about this big.

So 4 in something like that. Okay. Pretty big. And so it's got all these layers. So on the one hand you can say well this is just a guy sending in some stuff. uh there's no chain of custody, right? You don't know if he's a fraud making it up or whatever. But anyway, it turns out Those are layers of titanium and bismouth. So anyway, we uh Tom Dong got got a hold of a copy and so we said, "Okay, we're going to we're going to do everything we can to nail this down." So, we actually

set up a contract with uh an army office and then they uh arranged for Arrow, the all domain anomalies resolution office to consider taking this seriously. And uh so they arranged that this could be analyzed by Oakidge National Laboratory. And so we provided this uh to them to to analyze. Okay. And what were the results? Well, the results were that there's no obvious proof that it comes from out of our solar system because there are various isotopes would be different if it came from some other solar system. So that would be the first thing you'd

look for to say, "Oh, this really is ET." So that that didn't wash. The second part though was a little more Interesting and that is these layers of magnesium and bismouth. I mean those are the size of a human hair some of those layers and they said uh well we can't find any evidence in the history of development of materials of of materials like that and can't even imagine anybody want to make it. Uh so it's just it's an anomaly. So, no proof that it's ET, but one of the things we did do, he says,

"Okay, well, how hard is it to Make something like this?" And so, we got an aerospace corporation to say, "Can can you bond Misizabeth and magnesium together, you know, sort of like what we see in this sample?" Well, they got two layers bonded. Cost them over a million dollars. Broke down their instruments to do it. So, it's still basically a mystery. So, we we got to read the report. Uh it was uh not totally provided to the public, but anyway, was this about a quarter Inch thick? Is that what we're looking at here? Yeah. Yeah,

it's about So, how many layers did they estimate? I think we had in uh might have been 18, something like that. We could probably count them. So anyway, so that that that's uh a possible example, but no no conclusion we come to. So this is something that is of terrestrial origin in terms of materials when you measure the isotopes, But it's of a construction method that's not currently available. That is a a perfect description of the situation. And and by the way, certainly wasn't available back in the 40s and 50s when this supposedly was found.

supposedly that's the problem. So when was this is analyzed in what year? Well analysis started taking place um by Linda how at other laboratories I think in the years in the 2000s and we got back yeah we we got it uh I don't know maybe 20 uh 2020 something like that. So, but whoever if if the chain of analy we got it analyzed we got it analyzed only a couple years ago but if the chain of custody is accurate it goes back far enough where this is impossible right right and seemingly given the effort that

the aerospace corporation put in they can't even manufacture this today right in that that level so this Roswell crash is the big one right that's the One that everybody knows out and it was in 1947 in Rosville, New Mexico and the wreckage was flown in two separate planes to Wright Patterson Air Force Base which is unusual in and of itself and the idea was that it's flown in two planes just in case one goes down that this stuff is so important that we have to analyze it. That's correct. What do you think that was? I

think it was a True non-human intelligence craft that um crashed. Uh we've talked to one of my colleagues, Eric Davis, is one of my senior scientific adviserss. He interviewed General Exxon, who had been head of Wright Patterson Air Force Base. and so on and also uh Deose. So he's interviewed a couple of people that were involved back in in those days and they they say it was the Real deal that this uh was a real unidentifiable crash and these materials were really really from out someplace. And what did they say was done with the wreckage

that had been taken to Wright Patterson Air Force Base for analysis? And did anything come out of that analysis? Not that the public would hear about. Not that you can disclose. Not not that I could disclose. That's where it gets Frustrating. So there was Well, it gets it gets frustrating even for I mean the compartmentalization in this area is is really obscene. So you can have people sitting at this desk and someone else sitting in that chair and they don't have access. I can't tell him what I'm working on. He can't tell me what he's

working on. And so that's uh our going forward with this is uh very very slow and not opportune I would have to say. And of course we have data can't go into detail. We have data about crashes in other countries. So, it's really clear that uh we're not the only ones on the planet. So, that's something to be concerned about because for example, here we have our capitalistic uh competition, aerospace corporations, electronics corporations all being very hushed up and not sharing which stifles innovation. stifles innovation. Meanwhile, in China, you got you put all The labs

on something like this and say, "And by the way, don't say anything outside that you're not supposed to say or you know, you're done." Uh, and so the competition that potentially could uninhindered. Yeah. Yeah. So that's part of what's behind our not revealing what we've learned because there might be some aspect that we've learned which in principle you'd think well you could reveal but it might be the missing piece that some potential Adversary said oh that's what we've been missing right so I'm so even though generally speaking I'm of uh the feeling that there should

be more disclosure I'm also very tight on, you know, anything that could be potentially helpful to an adversary uh in this area. You know, we're not going to reveal that would be a mistake. So, how do these things keep crashing if they're so good? If they can get here from somewhere else, why do they slam Into the desert? Some of them have just been left in the desert, not crash. Some of them some of them have just I talked to Diana Pasoko about this. Oh, okay. And she refers to them as donations. She said that's

how they were described to her. Yeah. So in fact uh you know maybe maybe some of them are donations uh to help us accelerate our forward motion or maybe They donate something here, something in China, something in Russia and see who is best at moving forward, right? Just as part of their ISR evaluation of us. I mean, let's let's let's face it. We've had uh as as is known in the public, we've had UFOs come over our missile silos. Uh one at Mount Air Force Base that uh Salace has talked about, Bob Salas, they turned

off all of our missiles. There's no way it could be Launched. In Russia, there's even a worst case. They started the launch sequence in Russia. at a missile silo, nuclear missile silo, and the people at this at the location could not stop it, could not turn it off. So they thought, you know, World War II is about to stop. Fortunately, it was turned off. So anyway, you've got two things. So they whoever was doing that, whoever was manipulating it turned It off. That's right. So there's a big question is there are two ways to look

at that. Yeah. Right. They're friendly and benign and they just want us to know that if we get too frisky down here and think about having a nuclear war, they can stop it. Or they might not be benign and the armada is on its way and they just want to test that they can stop our use of nuclear weapons against them. So it's from a security standpoint and from A DoD standpoint, from intelligence community standpoint, you always have to have the worst scenario in your mind, right? And see where you go. Yeah. Well, I would

imagine from a security standpoint, it's a nightmare because you're not secure at all. If something can fly over your airspace and you can't do anything about it and it can shut down your missiles or turn them on, you're in a very strange situation. That's true. Where you're completely Helpless, dependent upon the whim of these beings. Exactly. Or whatever their mandate is, whatever they're trying to do, right? What do you think they're trying to do here? I have thoughts going in many directions in answer to that question. Um all the way from well they seated us

here you know millennia ago and they're just seeing how their pet petri dish is doing human beings the product of accelerated evolution. Yeah something Like that. Uh but I mean it's it's really hard to know. I mean, we it may be that we're a very special planet because we have all this water, which generally speaking is kind of rare. So, you know, maybe they'd like to slowly build up a connection with us so that they could take advantage of direct access to some of our resources. Don't know. uh by and large interactions Uh have not

been what you might call negative. I mean, even when we shoot missiles at them or whatever, but there were a series of exper of events in Calleris Island in Brazil back in the 80s, I think it was. And as part of our program, we investigated that in some detail where over some long period like weeks and the Brazilian Air Force got Involved. They got thousand hours of film and and uh they put their a big air force group down there and the UFOs were coming over and sending out beams that were actually harming people. That's

our one example that that stands out of there being apparent experience uh episodes where UFOs there's no way to interpret it but but as negative. So that makes you wonder well you know maybe they're Just one particular group of right oh euphanauts that are that are negatively disposed but the rest of them are okay or so anyway that's well they're probably just like humans in that regard right there's humans that are involved in scientific research expeditions they go there not looking to do any harm at all and then there's humans that will go into an

area where they're looking to extract resources and all they want to do is do that and anything that gets in Their way you know is casualties. Yeah. Exa. Exactly. So, there's a lot I mean it's still a big area that needs a lot of look see. And uh interesting enough even though uh this has been a tinfoil hat crowd kind of thing up until around 2017 when that New York Times story came out. Uh suddenly that really made a difference because the people that were coming on board that there's something real here were people like

Senator Harry Reid and other senators and so on. And so that sort of broken open that okay there there really is something here. And so as a result of that that's how some of these programs u have gotten you know pushed forward and re reignited. How many of these crashed crafts do you estimate there are that human beings have recovered? More than 10. More than 10. More than 10. How many of them are in possession of people in the United States? I I meant more than 10 in possession of the United States. What about worldwide?

Worldwide. Uh do we have any data on that? We have data, but it's it's it's classified. There's no way to really talk about it. But so there's more though. You could safely say it's not just the ones in the United States. Not just the ones in the United States. And and these uh are they equally distributed? My I I I actually I don't know for sure in terms of of data. I mean we have our best data of course on our own retrievalss um but more than 10 retrieved in the United States. More than 10

ret. What is your take on Bob Lazar? Well, we looked into the Bob Lazar story and uh but only, you know, from a certain relatively superficial uh level. Uh looked at uh well, we found Out what his clearance levels supposedly were and so on, which came back saying it was not high enough to be doing what he says he was doing. On the other hand, it may just simply be, yeah, it was better than that, but we didn't have the access to see that. So, when I when I hear his physics descriptions, uh, it it's

it's a puzzle. It it seems not exactly as I would anticipate u might be the technology behind the craft, but I can't absolutely write them Off. So, it's just it's an enigma and I and I don't have any hard data to prove one way or the other. So, it's uh I I I know you've you've talked to them and Yeah. Um it's a fascinating puzzle. It is a fascinating puzzle because that would be the place S4 would be the place where they would do that kind of work. I mean, if you wanted to do something

like that in complete privacy and secrecy, you'd do it in the middle of the Nevada desert. Very protected. That's true. Right. outside of Area 51. So even when people that have high clearances go and say, "Well, tell me about this. What what's what's behind this?" Who knows if it's a special access program, an SAP, it might be say, "No, we're going to tell you that." You know, he he didn't do anything of significance here. In fact, he might have done something of significance. There's just no way of telling from from the outside. Yeah. Yeah. So

the the Actual generator, the thing that powers the craft that Lazar talked about, what was your take on that? This idea that it was element 115 that when it encounters high radiation, it has some sort of an anti-gravitational effect, some warp effect. Well, there are two two aspects. One is what is the material or mechanisms that generate the effects and then the other is are the effects being described reasonable descriptions of the Kind of effects you think are associated with with such craft on the element 115. As you know, in the general scientific community, we

finally we've seen element 115, but you know, it's very short-lived. So, it's hard to evaluate that. And at this point, there's no evidence that that that that's it. So, it was we should explain to people it was theoretical at one point until they detected it using was a large collider or another particle collider. you know, Right now I think it was a particle collider in in Soviet Union or in Russia and it's very shortlasting, but the idea is that what Lazar was in possession of or what the craft was powered by was some sort of

a stable version of element 115. That's that that's what he says. So in general it was known that and predicted that there was an island of stability as we call it on some of these higher uh elements in the periodic table that are that are beyond uranium and so On. Uh but really no data predicted as to what their lifetimes would be. And so element 115 is is is in that bunch. And when he first discussed it, it hadn't been seen yet. Or this is way back in 1989. Way back. That's right. But eventually that

element was detected. Although the version of it that was detected had a very short lifetime, but of course there may be some other isotope of that element that could have have the long Lifetime. Who knows? So it's it's just hard to evaluate. So it sits in my gray box, as I say. Uh but his description of the anti-gravity effects and so on, that's an area that that that is well described as as what you might expect. As it turns out in that series of 38 papers, one of my own papers uh that I provided was

one called space-time metric engineering. And when the pilots came to me and said Uh you know drops down takes off right angle turn at Mach 10 uh you know this is this is way beyond our physics and I said earlier you know I think it's not beyond our physics beyond our engineering but what I did on the physics level was all of our electronics that we have here for example this microphone uh the recording uh that you're making and so that's all based on electromagnetic kinds of technologies all of which come Out of Maxwell's equations.

Maxwell's equations clerk Maxwell way back in the 1800s developed the equations for electromagnetism and basically any kind of electromagnetic device you name it uh h Wi-Fi whatever can be traced back to this equations. So what I said to myself was okay we have these apparent craft operating with this unbelievable kinds of activity. Is there any way to account For that in our physics? Well it turns out so what I did I took a sheet of paper and the left hand side of the paper I wrote down all the weird effects that have been claimed. You

know right angle turn at Mach 10. Uh, I got close to the craft and suddenly it wasn't the same size as it seemed to be when I was further away. Um, it was a certain uh color, but when I got close to it, it was it was a different color. You know, all these Weird things. To me, to me, the weirder the better because if somebody was just making up a BS story, they wanted to sound rational. So you don't come up with things like, well, I got in the craft, five minutes went by, I

came out and two hours had gone by. I mean, you know, you're just not going to make make that up. Then on the right hand side of the piece of paper, I said, okay, we have Einstein's equations in general relativity, and we use them to talk About black hole mergers or neutron star mergers or whatever. Uh, and all these things are massively energetic events. Suppose I could engineer Einstein's equations the way we engineer Maxwell's equations for electromagnetic effects. What would I expect to see? And I find out I got a hand and glove match between

what was claiming to be observed and you know what Einstein's equation if you could engineer them. Well, why can't we engineer them? Well, it what we at least what we know today is the energy density required to engineer those equations is just way beyond our ability to do so. So, can you give me a comparison to what the energy requirements or something like that would be like? Yeah. Uh people have have in fact uh Alcubier warp drive. I don't know if you've heard of that but a Miguel Alcubier um was a researcher in general Relativity

and kind of a Star Trek fan and so on. He said I wonder if we could really have warp drive. And so uh he used Einstein's equations to say okay under what conditions could we do a warp drive? And he actually came up with solutions from out of the equations. Okay. What would it take to drive that? Oh, it would be hundreds of times more than the energy of the sun. I mean, wow. Just out out of sight energy. So, uh, you know, until we have a new energy Source or until there's some backdoor that

we haven't, uh, you know, sewered in on, it's it's just really outside of our our expertise to to think of. There could be conceivably some breakthrough and an understanding of this backdoor like whatever it could be, some new type of science, some new kind of understanding. And one of the things that I've looked into myself is well what about vacuum energy so-called uh as a quantum Physicist we all know that uh you know like you push a kid in a swing and it you know it it comes down and stops. But at the quantum level

you get something going it doesn't stop. It always comes down to a certain level and it just it's still there. So it turns out that what we call empty space is not really empty. It's full of quantum fluctuations. And in fact, one of the difficulties of modern physics theory is that when we go by using our standard Quantum theory to calculate, well, what's the energy density like right here or way out in empty space, what's the energy density of those quantum fluctuations? It's 120 orders of magnitude. greater than could possibly be according to all of

our other theories. I mean it would collapse gravity and everything else. So, so we have this conundrum that that energy that is everywhere somehow all is random and Cancels out. So, you know, it's just not having an effect. So the idea is if you could somehow access that energy um and cohhere it so to speak maybe you could get to the energy. I mean I What would that look like? Well, if I if I go off on a weird tangent, I could tell you what it might look like. Uh along the way in the uh

remote viewing program where we're kind of looking at physical effects, we decided to take a look at Uh so-called levitating saints. Okay. And so, you know, you'd think, okay, well, that's just that's a Catholic church trying to pretend it's got these magical people and whatever, whatever. But when you dig into the data, you find it's that that isn't it. It's that the church hated the idea that some individuals were levitating because they might be in the middle of giving mass and suddenly they, you know, float up or whatever. So it turns out that Even looking

in the uh uh deep literature of the Inquisition and so on, the evidence is really solid that there have been levitating saints. And uh what the Catholic Church usually did is they squirreled them off into some monastery where nobody see them because there When you say levitating, like what do you mean? You mean like how far off the ground? Sometimes Jaime's got something here. Notable example happened during a visit To Italy from the Spanish ambassador. The ambassador had visited Joseph in his monastic cell and was so impa impressed that he wanted to return with his

wife. Joseph entered the church where the couple hoped to meet him and upon seeing the statue of Mary elevated 10 ft into the air, flew over the crowd to the statue, prayed, flew back to the door and returned home. The church later took depositions from a number of people who were there that day And their stories were consistent. And the year, what year was this? Long time. 1628. 1628. So there are enough stories like that with lots of observers and the reporting under really excellent conditions. Okay. Now that guy didn't have a nuclear power pack

on his back. So how did that happen? Well, the only uh thing I can think of in terms of the physics we know today would be that somehow the vacuum energy which can be very high if you cohered it and uh and If you made it non-random uh you know may maybe maybe that could do it. So perhaps he was able to access this with states of consciousness because he was so devout in his faith that upon seeing this the experience was so overwhelming that he was somehow able to access this energy right and that

ecstatic state is but it would take this extreme belief this extreme commitment this state of mind that's very rare exactly that that's what it would take and you would Follow that when you did the experiments with the quantum chip, you would say, well, if someone's able to control oscillations, you're doing something with your mind that shouldn't be possible, right? And you're affecting a physical thing that shouldn't be possible. And this is just someone who' never thought of doing that before, someone who didn't know that they were going. This is so this is a physical manifestation

of the Manifestation the power of whatever unknown ability of the human mind. So since it's unknown uh you know there's no way we would know how to tap it right and if these are very unique moments where this is a extremely devout person who obviously was a monk was probably meditating and achieving this insane state of consciousness that's almost impossible to get to unless you're committed as long as he was unless you're as dedicated as he was and Then he has this overwhelming moment right and I've no way to you know connect the physics to

it now. The idea is that if there is energy that's allowing a person using their mind to do this that somehow or another if this energy could be accessed through science through physics through engineering we tried to look into that uh for example uh Andre Sakarov a very famous Soviet physicist said you know I don't think Gravity is its own thing I think really it's a manifestation of the underlying quantum fluctu situations and so uh so I and some colleagues from Lockheed Martin and elsewhere kind of looked into that uh option and u you know

if we're just sitting here uh talking and so on uh you know universe is full of quantum fluctuations why don't I notice it on The other hand if you get into your uh fastmoving car and you suddenly take off, you're pressed back in your seat. Well, what is it that's pressing you back? I mean, it isn't the wind. You've got a windshield and a cover. Well, there's there's some modeling that says, well, maybe it's because if you try to accelerate through the vacuum fluctuations, it will push back on you. So that might be our first

little touch that okay uh under conditions of Acceleration we do notice the background vacuum fluctuations. Well since to a theorist uh inertia and gravity are you know connected somehow then it makes you think okay well maybe there's some way of accessing vacuum fluctuations to control gravity. That's what what we would like to think. And so one of the things we did in the program was just collect every bit of data that we Could. So for example when I went through my uh analysis of well if we could engineer general relativity what we'd expect to see

a number of things came out of it. So for example in this room most of the electromagnetic energy we don't see. It's in the form of heat and we don't see heat. You know you get an infrared detector you can see it but we we don't see heat. Well, it turns out that under the conditions in which You're controlling gravity the way these craft appear to be doing, one of the consequences and one of the attributes that goes along with it is the frequencies get raised. And so the heat of a craft that you ordinarily

wouldn't see can get raised up into the visible spectrum. And so that's why they might look so bright. That also has certain other additional Consequences. That is if it's powered up and it's sitting there in the ground and you get too close uh the ordinary heat spectrum which isn't harmful or the visible spectrum which isn't harmful can be shifted up frequency into the ultraviolet and soft X-ray. So, if you get too close to a landing craft that's powered up, you might get a sunburn, which is one of the things that has been reported, or you

might actually, in fact, get uh Radiation poisoning from X-rays and and and so on. So, those kinds of things seem to go hand inand give us some clues of where to look. What is your take on the Travis Walton story? I think the Travis Walton story is right on. I I think that's a solid story. It's a very I don't I I don't have any as I have a bobblehead specific bobblehead. Oh yes. Okay. That's him. He gave it to me. I see. Okay. No, I think I I all aspects that I've seen of his

story. I I take that as for people that don't know the story, I'll give you a brief synopsis or brief uh breakdown of what it was. They're loggers. They're driving through Arizona. They see this craft moving through the sky and it goes into the woods. Um, Travis gets out of the truck, runs towards it, gets too close to it, and is hit with some sort of a beam, flies back, falls down. The other guys panic. They take off in the truck. And As they're taking off, they're arguing that they need to go back and get

him. We need to go help him. We need to go back and get him. They're all freaked out. They decide, "Yeah, we we got to go back." So, they turn around and he's gone. They get back to the spot. The craft is gone. and Travis is gone. Um, they reported, everyone's freaking out. No one knows. They suspect they might have killed him or something. 5 days later, Travis appears wearing the same Clothes, looking none the worst for wear with this fantastic story that they took him aboard this craft. And they communicated with him and fixed

his body that something happened to him upon the impact of whatever that ray was that hit him, that he was going to die. They repaired him and they communicated with him and brought him back. Five days later, he has this story. And he's had the same story for decades. And one of the reasons I accept that story Is that, for example, the other people who left the site and then went back, they eventually uh did polygraphs on them and they passed the polygraphs. I mean, they weren't making up that story. Polygraphs are manipulatable. You can

manipulate. Yeah, you can. But would I expect that some uh unsophisticated loggers? sophisticated loggers would do it. You know, particularly one of the guys didn't even like Travis. One of the guys, Travis, got into a fist fight with The actual day of the event. Oh my. Yeah. And he also told the exact same story, right? Yeah. So, there was a lot going on with that one. Um, and then there had been frequent sightings in that one particular area, which is also weird. Like, what is it about certain areas? I mean, there's the area that you

discussed in Australia. Well, that would kind of make sense if There really is a base somewhere, you know, and the the real thought that Keeps getting brought about in the zeitgeist is the ocean. That's the that's what people bring up all the time. If you wanted to hide in plain sight, where would you hide? Well, you hide in threequarters of the Earth's surface that we very rarely examine. and the observation of UFOs coming up, non-human intell intelligence craft coming up out of the ocean are they're all over the place. So, uh Tim God, who's uh

uh ex-Navy admiral who had or He's he's a Navy admiral now retired who was in charge of Noah, the National Oceanographic, whatever it's called. uh he's really big on the idea of collecting data about UFOs emerging from the water and so it seems like uh the data on that is it's just all over the place. Also observing UFOs in the water zooming by submarines right at uh 400 knots 500 knots or whatever without any cavitation. I mean, it's just it's just really so the the the data we're buried In data. Uh really uh we're just

not buried in in how to explain it. Have any of these remote viewers tried to look at the bottom of the ocean? Um not that I'm aware of. Why wouldn't Now remove viewers have have zeroed in on on on UFOs although turns out not at the bottom of the ocean. Let let me give you an example. Uh but we we should probably do that. I mean since now these days I'm not involved in the remote viewing uh Programs. So you maybe there are some but there are remote viewing programs that are still going on right

now. I would say that's likely. I when you have an asset that works to some degree even though it's dismissed publicly. Even though it's dismissed publicly. So, so even after the SRRI program got shut down um and after I came out to Austin in what 85 to set up Earth International and the Institute for Advanced Studies In Austin. uh starting to pursue my physics stuff because I really wanted to pursue my physics. I didn't want to stay in looking at remote viewing forever. Uh but I got calls from certain intelligence agency asking me if I'd

be willing to set up another program in remote viewing. And so I figured, okay, I I turn I turned them down because I liked the change I had made. But so if they ask me that, chances are they asked Somebody else that and they probably got somebody to to agree to do it. And from time to time, many of the remote viewers that we trained uh in army incom for example have have now you know retired from the army and they're teaching remote viewing classes and they often get tasked by somebody back in the intelligence

community to check out something. I mean they they've been very uh prolific in for example uh Detecting say cargo ships coming across the ocean where certain containers full of dope really that's been released on the CIA site about remote viewing results and so you can find it. Of course, I I I tell any remote of viewers I know, you know, you don't don't want to advertise that because you don't want cartels nearby putting check on your back. So, yeah. But what what I'm interested in is that Is the possibility of things under the ocean and

and I would imagine if I was running a remote viewing program and I had suspicions that there's activity under the ocean like that craft that was seen that goes 500 knots under the water that I would start looking under there. I can well imagine that that somebody is you're just not aware of anything. I'm just not not aware of it. But there was there's this structure that exists off the coast of California at the bottom of The ocean that looks odd. Very odd. It looks very um constructed. It looks man-made or or intelligent in in

its construction. And uh I was just looking at something on Google Earth the other day where people are having a hard time finding it now. And they're they're thinking that it's perhaps obscured. Obscured. Yeah. See if you can find that because I I know what you're talking about. You saw it as well. I saw as well and I It was certainly interesting. It Looked very weird. You know, it looked like it looked like some sort of a base. It was flat on the top and it looked like it had openings in it. See, I lost

your sound. Is there Oh, you did, Jamie. Um maybe it's your headphones or did you step on something? You hear me now? No, I mean I just hear you through the air, but not We got to take a break right now because I got to use the restroom anyway. Jamie will fix it and We'll be right back. Had a little tactical snafu. Use the restroom and we're back. Um, so I I forget exactly where we're at, but I know where I wanted to go. Where I wanted to go is we're talking about potential sources of

energy, potential sources of propulsion systems. How much do you consider the possibility that the things that people are seeing are ours? They're they're made in some Top secret program using some advanced propulsion system, some advanced energy system that is not publicly disclosed. I wouldn't rule out the fact that we may have some pretty fancy things uh running from our own labs. I I know that what gets developed in the dark labs uh some of which I know about are really advanced, but it just can't cover the whole observation that we're seeing with what we call

NHI craft, non-human Intelligence craft. Do you think that some of this stuff has been backgineered from these non-human crafts? Uh some of the materials I would say yes. I think we've got some uh I mean there it's it's it's out on the web uh these days that uh for example Battel Institute um has uh supposedly were given some materials from from um from the Roswell crash and uh we always hear the descriptions of this Foil that you could crumple up and then you let go and it just flattens out again and so on. So material

of that type was uh provided to Battel and they worked on it uh for some years to try to see if they could reproduce it and and the claim is that and it it's it's in the public domain that night came out of it which is that material that uh can be heated and then it'll reform uh into its original sorts. It doesn't exactly reproduce the effect you saw, But some of it uh is kind of in the direction of that. And it turned out that the some of the main material engineers that worked on

that at their deathbed, they told their relatives that they were working on pieces from the Roswell crash and and they made some progress, but but not a lot. You you can look that up in on the internet and see that that's the case. is part of the limitation this thing that we're discussing earlier about Compartmentalization and the the the the lack of ability of other scientists to get access to this material so they can collaborate. Yes, the compartmentalization I would say is the biggest impediment to making really good progress. Uh for sure I I think

that's the case and this conundrum has sort of existed for quite a long time. Quite a long time. This is something also in line with what Bob Lazar said. Bob Lazar Said the big frustration when he was working, he was tasked with trying to figure out the propulsion system, but he had no access to the metallurgists. He had no access to anyone else that was also working on similar things. And he's like, "Science just can't progress this way. It needs to be collaborative." Absolutely right. That's 100%. And it's even worse than you would think. I

mean, one of the stories that I ran into was Um a corporation had materials from crashes in their basement. They couldn't even bring them up to the top floor for their own scientists to look at because it was so compartmentalized. And so that was part of the deal where we said, "Okay, well, give them to us and then we'll come in the front door and give them to your scientists and we won't say it came from your basement and we won't say what it had to do with and You know, maybe that would work." But

that that got shut down. So it was so compartmentalized. So compartmentalization is really a death now on on much of this stuff. As I say, as I go back to my uh teller story, um more collaboration, even though there are faults that can happen and material can leak out and information can leak out and that might help an adversary, still I think more openness would be would be A better idea. Oh, for sure. Well, definitely for you and I who are fascinated by this thing, right? What have you had a personal experience with anything that

you can't explain? No, actually haven't. So for you it's I mean I mean one time I saw what appeared to be a satellite make a right angle turn. So that like falls into that kind of a category but who knows who knows what it was. Right. So no nothing profound. Nothing profound. So, you've Never been hopped in a jet and flown to the wreckage and had a chance to look at things? No, haven't. Don't you want to? Well, I sure would like to do that. Uh but that's that that's still that's still uh we had

this discussion earlier about uh you know well for example in the remote viewing or quantum entanglement or you know what's going on that in our physics that we don't understand that that these kinds of things can be Happening and uh you'll be interested to know that uh someone you know John Paul Deorio uh uh and I are in partnership to explore a new means of communication uh quantum communications. And so I'm actually now at this point uh directly involved in a program to examine quantum communications. And so it turns out that uh whereas ordinary electromagnetic

communications you know Can't get through barriers metal door or whatever. Well why is that? It's because the electromagnetic signal when it gets to the metal door uh the electric and magnetic field generate counteracting effects and so the signal can't get through. So it turned out that uh some years ago uh when I was digging around to try to find out how to explain unusual effects, I dug deeper into electromagnetism down into the quantum levels and recognized That there are some additional quantum processes where you could end up suppressing the electric and magnetic fields, but you

would still have a quantum signal which in principle could get through barriers. And so that would mean okay uh if that's the case and you could communicate to submarines. So whereas the saltwater is sufficiently conductive then electromagnetic signal can't get down There and communicate if you are able to pull out the electric and magnetic components but you still have an underlying quantum aspect to it you could get through. Or same thing with uh you know spaceships you know when our spaceships came back from when the Apollo spaceships came back once they started in our atmosphere

and are surrounded by plasma we have this period where there's no communication well for the very reason That electromagnetic signals can't get through to charge plasmas but this quantum communication aspect could. What would you use to how would you encode the information quantumly and how would you project it? What kind of machinery would be involved in something like that? Well, it turns out that the machinery to generate the signals would be very explicitly designed antenna structures that are put together in such A way as to prevent electromagnetic components from being transmitted. It's the detection part

where the secret to the technology is because it turns out then okay if electromagnetic signals aren't there how are you going to detect s such a signal because all of our detectors are you know electromagnetic signal comes in and generates a current and whatever. Well, it turns out that the Special kinds of signaling at the quantum level can only be detected by quantum devices. Quantum devices can detect these quantum communication signals uh even if there's no electric and magnetic effects associated with them. So that's what we're that's what we're looking at. And so when I

think about uh okay well you know what areas does this have application for? Well, of course, it's got a lot of application for things like communication and under Conditions where you'd like to overcome shielding, but it may have something to do even with some of the consciousness stuff because ordinarily, you know, when you hear about uh people trying to think, well, what about consciousness? Is it still just all molecules and neurons whirling around or are there some additional fields? There are a couple of physicists, well a physicist and an anesthesiologist, Uh, the physicist Roger Penrose

who got a Nobel Prize for general relativity stuff and Stu Hammeroff who is an anesthesiologist. They coupled up and started saying okay is there a possibility that there are quantum aspects in ordinary life in ordinary consciousness because sounds kind of reasonable. The anesthesiologist says well when I give somebody a certain anesthetic they lose consciousness. So There must be something about the anesthesiathesia that grabs onto whatever is responsible for consciousness. So make long story short, they came up with a model where they felt that there are in fact quantum processes occurring within the brain that in

addition to the stuff we all read about, know about like neurons and all that kind of stuff. There's also a distribution throughout uh our brain and nervous system of what's called Microtubules. And turns out microtubules uh have such a structure you do experiments in lab to show this that they can detect quantum signals. So the idea that even in our consciousness there are mechanisms for detecting quantum signals is like a whole new area to investigate. And so there are some uh you know biological and consciousness oriented uh experimenters that are taking a look at This

idea that okay instead of just saying quantum entanglement that's how information get from here to there maybe we can actually find out okay well what's the mechanism though and so this is a whole new area it turns out that uh I developed proof of principle for this subrosa quantum communication stuff uh on a classified contract back in the '9s actually. So I got proof of principle in That in that situation. However, you say okay well if you got proof of principle then why aren't we using it? Why isn't it all over the place? It turned

out that quantum detection quantum detectors were very uh you know new kinds of uh circuitry and not nothing ready for prime time. So I put that whole thing on the shelf, let it uh sit there for a while. And now because of quantum computing, it turns out a lot of research effort is going to develop Uh cryogenic circuitry near absolute zero to be used in quantum computing. So I said, okay, they got uh these Joseen junctions working, which is exactly what I want to use for my detection scheme. And so I find time decide to

take it off the shelf. So uh I approached uh JP and uh showed him what the potential was not only in just communications but maybe it has implications for you know biological things or medical things or whatever because of this other work on Microtubules. So so he said okay well let's let's let's go for it. So we we have another major lab that is actually putting together circuitry for us uh that obsolet operates about 3.7 degrees above absolute zero. I mean this is this is really quite a technical challenge but uh he and I are

working in that together. He's my he's my uh collaborator. Fascinating. Um quantum entanglement is is that what you think was going on with the algae? So if you Were able to do something to the algae in one area, this this same colony of algae when you had separated by long distances, they instantaneously recognized that something was happening. That's the only thing I can imagine at this point based on the physics we know. How far were they separated in distance? Well, I was going to separate. It was about five miles. As it turns out, I never

actually got to do that experiment because the CIA came and and scooped me Up and said, "Well, we got to look at this remote viewing." And so even though I proposed doing the experiment, the polygraph said that guy said this would be a great experiment, never got around to doing the experiment because along the way Ingo Swan, you know, visited his lab, came out and perturbed the tiny quantum chip in the super shielded environment that brought the CIA on my doorstep and so then we went Off in that direction. So I never got to do

the experiment. So as you consider all these technologies as these innovations occur and technology becomes more and more powerful like quantum computing like many of these things that we're seeing now. Do you think that these are all steps to further understand how these crafts could possibly work? and we're getting closer and closer to it where Disclosure would accelerate that and we would have to get over this. We'd have to get we'd have to have some sort of amnesty. Amnesty towards the people that that misappropriated funds and lied to Congress. Amnesty towards whatever defense contractors were

given access to this equipment or this these materials and other ones. There has to be some executive decision that's made where like look for the greater good of the human race, we have to bypass all of These blockades that are involved in us being able to truly understand what's going on here. And one of them is we have to have disclosure. Yes, exactly. And in fact, uh we're not alone in thinking that way. uh as you may as many in the field are aware of uh in 2023 then majority leader Senate majority leader Chuck Schu

Chuck uh yeah Chuck Schumer and a Republican uh Senator Rounds got together and they put together an outline of an amendment to be attached to the National Defense Authorization Act called UAP Disclosure Act 2023 and it's pages and pages long. And it's hard to believe, but within this uh document, they outline how you would go through disclosure. And uh it's it's it's very detailed. I mean, for example, this is An official government document. You can go find it on the internet. Nonhuman intelligence phrase is mentioned more than 20 times. Whoa. And the document said, look,

what we need is a presidential panel, president say officiated panel of people from several different uh areas. who and and all those people out there who have materials and so on. We're going to practice imminent domain, which is turns out to be one of The things that turns people hair on fire when they think they've got something and don't want to share it. But anyway, that we have to come up with a process whereby corporations that have been involved in this can begin to share their history and their data and their materials. And the National

Archives will be set up to make this information available as is safe to do considering security Concerns. And so this is a multi-page document uh that you can find you can find it on the internet. Okay, it passed the Senate but the House killed it. So you might think, okay, well that's the end of that. Surprisingly so, and it makes you realize the intensity of this. After it was killed, both Schumer and Rounds got back up on in the Senate floor and said, "Okay, it got killed, but we're not giving up. We're going to get

it in There next year." And so the following year, 2024, they included it again. And most of it got killed. The only thing that got killed was okay, the National Archives will make available uh whatever information is provided them on on this subject area and the National Archives has started to do that. But as you can imagine, anybody who's got some really juicy stuff isn't going to give It to the National Archives. So that's it's still dead in the water. So anyway, recently uh I was asked to come in and brief Senator Rounds, who was

one of the two people who pushed this, and he said, "We're not giving up on this. Give me what you found so far about the physics of this because when we try to push it, we always get the push back that well, you know, we're not going to make any headway. The pilots say this is way Beyond our physics, but I understand that you and your colleagues have worked on this and felt that you can provide some of the physics. We may not get the engineering yet, but we have someplace to start. Is that true?

Because I need to push back on the push back. So I gave him a long lecture on on the physics which I've also presented to the Senate select committee on intelligence, the Senate Armed Services Committee, Arrow, the old domain anomalies resolution office. So the information is coming out into those places and um and so though there are those people in high positions of power in our Congress who are really pushing it. So for example, as it turns out, tomorrow there's going to be a big meeting. Uh I think it was set up by Representative Luna

or Yeah, I think it's Representative Luna. you know, when They put out that official document saying, "Okay, JFK files are coming out, RFK files are coming out, MLK files are coming out." In that list, UFO files are coming out. Well, they haven't gotten there. The Epstein files are coming out. Okay, so it's officially on that list. So, in fact, as it turns out, tomorrow there's going to be a big thing in Congress where they're going to have an open hearing uh with people coming forward uh to talk about Uh that there should be some release

of some steps forward to release this kind of data. So, it is not a dead issue. I mean, it is hot and there are a lot of really powerful people behind it. But you've got the resistance uh buried. I mean there are people within the uh intelligence community and uh the DoD who do think we need more openness. They see the same issues I see that we're not making much progress because everything is so Compartmentalized. Right. So, uh, is there a concern? It's an ongoing thing. When when you talked about during the Bush administration, you

were tasked along with others to try to figure out what are the pros and what are the cons and what what outweighs what and you they your group decided that the cons outweighed the pros. When it comes to disclosure today, with the risk of espionage and with the risk of this information, if it becomes Disclosed and everybody has access to it, clearly if it's disclosed to the general public, it's also going to be disclosed to our our enemies, right? And so this becomes an issue of national security. Yes. So it's got to be done correctly.

How would one do that? Well, this write up that Schumer and Rounds and and some other people, Gilibbran Gillibran and Rubio uh put together said, "Okay, we're going to have to lay everything out in the table at a high Classified area. We're going to have to sort our way through of what can be released that doesn't take the chance of giving our ad potential adversaries data they need to to leap ahead of us. But nonetheless, we've got to have more collaboration so that we can move ahead faster. So that's that's the job of uh at

least in that document of a nine-person panel to figure out, okay, what could be released without jeopardizing our national security so Much, but nonetheless accelerating the kind of collaboration we need to make headway faster. And then there's the issue of when it does get disclosed, like what happens to the general public's perception. If this is like a national disclosure, if the president, if Trump gets on television and discloses everything we know so far, we are in possession of 10 vehicles, however you want to call Them, of non-human intelligence that are not ours. We have been

working on this for decades in secret in secrecy. But because of the fact that everything has been so secret and everything's so compartmentalized, innovation has been stagnant. Our understanding of it has been stagnant. The only way forward is to disclose. But this is going to come with a radical reimagining of our place in the universe. What you've just described is what I Think has to happen. I mean, because you have whistleblowers like Dave Grush coming forward and he basically says, "We've got craft, we've got bodies, we've got uh aerospace corporations working on this behind the

scenes." But in the end, that doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't really solve the problem. And you have people uh come forward and said, "Look, I can give you the address of Where the stuff is stored, so we can take this out of the discussion area and really prove something." But it would take it would take, I think, a presidential uh executive order or something to to to light a fire under that process to have it happen. So, but that's all possible. It's all possible. And when I compare, you know, where are we today as compared

to where we were in 2004 or whenever that Uh other disclosure discussion took place at that time there was a lot of stigma. There was no proof you could kind of put your hands on. Uh there was in fact purposely designed misinformation by the intelligence community so-called Robertson panel went out of their way to you know say this is all nonsense. So that was something you're dealing with. So there you realize well if I come forward and say there's really something to this I'm I'm Really blasting through quite a brick wall here. But in the

intervening in intervening uh decades, I think we've gotten to a point where the reasons we had to not do it then are no longer applicable. But some of the concerns we had discussed then are still applicable and have to be we have to pay attention to them. So I think uh for example this uh film that you saw that had its Premiere at uh South by Southwest that uh Dan Farah put out and a upcoming book coming out uh by Jay Stratton who was in charge of the UAP task force. These kind of things are

going to accelerate that option. And so I think it's only a matter I mean I would find it difficult to believe that within a decade we're not going to figure out how to do this and that there will be what you and I would call disclosure but in a responsible way Where we're not uh providing the enemy uh you know information they need. I mean, I recall when the when the when the DoD program was set up out of DIA, they said, "Well, we need to investigate this to find out whose craft there are, you

know, what how do they run and whatever, whatever." And then the second reason was what if our potential adversaries get access or figure this out from their data collection before we do and they leap ahead of us. So it Turned out that whole program was not based on one. They couldn't care less where these things were coming from, what their intentions were. They're really worried about the possibility of an adversary getting ahead of us. So that was the driving force behind the whole program. Well, now having all these intervening years go by and uh you

know, there hasn't been any obvious super breakthrough by adversaries, I think, now is the time we Could have a kind of a reconciliation process. Uh make sure we don't put everybody in jail and anything to do with covering this up. Provide uh proper lanes to bring various aspects of information forward. And so that's uh that's what I and colleagues that I interact with uh are trying to do today. I would also think that if I was looking at civilization particularly United States civilization and thinking what kind of an impact would things have in 2004 with

with disclosure and what kind of an impact would they have in 2025. I think that this gradual acceptance and this understanding that this is probably a real phenomenon is much more widespread today. So the the concept of it it wouldn't be as shocking as it would have been two decades ago. You know, two decades ago, by the way, is when the the tic tac vehicle was was observed, which is 2004, which is really kind of crazy When you think about the technology that was required to do something. And then imagine that that technology being ours

in 2004. It seems preposterous, right? It seems almost outside of the realm of even whatever top secret programs could have been running, some black programs could have been running. That seems too much. It is too much. It seems too crazy. So, as the I think a big breakthrough and I think you probably agree with the New York Times, that 2017 Report in the New York Times was huge because here it is in the most prestigious newspaper in the United States in the world, right? And it's saying, look, there's there's real things happening here and there's

real people who are a very high level who are talking about these things, whether it's Commander Fraver or Ryan Graves or all these different fighter pilots that have encountered these things that are just doing something that is beyond Explanation. This is more in the zeicist now. Yes, there's and the more you have people like James Fox and Jeremy Corbel and these documentaries that get out and more and more of an understanding and appreciation of fact that these aren't cooks. The these are real people and we need to take into consideration the very obvious possibility that

we are not unique. There's too many planets, there's too many solar systems, there's too many galaxies, there's too and then Dimensions. Yes. And then just the potential of like what what do we look like in a million years? What do we look like in a million years? And if we, you know, existed in this form for hundreds of thousands of years, it's not inconceivable that a species like us could keep going with its innovative trajectory. Yes. And achieve some state a million years from now that is just beyond our imagination currently. and that we might

be experiencing that, Right? But I I think you have laid out an exact map of the real situation and what the future probably holds for us and the fact that now is the time sooner rather than later to begin to have this become part of our total philosophical fabric to face into this and to accept the reality of you know nonhuman human intelligences, for example, and recognize that uh our own technical development is moving so fast That the kind of things that we find to be so mysterious are pretty much likely in our not that

far off future. Well, just what we see with the leaps that quantum computing exactly is able to achieve equations that would take standard computing billions of years. It could do it in four minutes. Exactly. Just just you hear that and you go, "What are you even saying?" That's right. In fact, my son this morning uh brought up that article uh and you know It's just it's it's un kind of unbelievable. So, uh it's unbelievable and it's real. It's unbelievable and it's real and it's happening right now. And then just imagine taking that 50 years. Yes.

50 years ago that was science fiction. Complete science fiction. That's right. I mean I I love my example of uh in fact I got it into the New York Times article. Suppose you gave Leonardo da Vinci a garage door opener. You what could he do? Well, Right. First of all, plastic. He doesn't know what plastic is. Secondly, when he opens it up and sees all these little tiny things, he'd never heard of electromagnetism. Uh I mean, there's no way that even okay or give Einstein an iPhone back in 19 45 or something, you know, right?

What what could he do with it? So that's sort of the position that we kind of have been in to see these craft that we get access to either Through crashes or quote donations and uh you know it's it's it's really mysterious but nonetheless uh we should do our best and these days because of the development of quantum uh technologies and so on we have better tools we have AI on our side to move fast through some calculations and stuff. So I so I think I think this is the time where uh disclosure is going

to happen and relatively soon. Well, it's if it does happen, it's thanks to people Like you that stuck their neck out for many many years and I'm sure you experienced a lot of ridicule and side eyes. Sure did. Right. In fact, I remember uh when I was involved in the remote viewing program, uh one of my sons was attending a uh grammar school and uh one day uh another father's kid came over to play with him and when the other uh professor actually at Stanford came over and said, "Uh, I brought my kid over to

play with you, but his last Name is put off. are you associated with that put off at SRRI and that remote viewing? I said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I am." And he said, "Okay, my son's not going to come over and play with you." Anyway, so you run into that run into that. But I don't know. Some people Why would he want to talk to you? If that was my kid, I'd be like, "Let's hang out." Yeah. Tell me, Al, what the heck are you doing? Yeah. So, anyway, uh that's what we used to run into.

Close-mindedness just but that shows how things have changed. Right. Uh uh in general when we talk about uh the remote viewing aspects people just say okay uh I accept that now how can we apply it and we talk about technologies associated with uh crash retrievals. Okay fine but you know what can we learn from that? How can we apply it? So I mean it's a different world we're in now and I'm I'm really excited about it and uh you know I'm not going to stop. Well I'm very happy you're out there. I really really appreciate

you and I really appreciate your time. So, thank you for coming in here and talking to us. Certainly welcome. And I appreciate the fact that you're willing to be pursuing these frontier areas and bringing them to a large audience. That's that's a real gift. I I really appreciate that. Well, it feels like a gift for me because it's so fascinating and I've been obsessed with it my whole Life as I think a lot of people are who look into it at all and realize there's some there's something of substance there. Right. Right. Well, thank you,

Hal. Thank you. It was a real pleasure. Pleasure for you, too. All right. Bye everybody. [Music] [Applause] [Music]