O Experimento de Milgram

Hello I'm mr. Williams thank you for coming please you are Fred Miller you must be Wallace James Wallace great please now before we do anything else allow me to pay you please check the book names are spelled correctly you understand that this is your simply for coming to the lab from now on no matter what happens the money is yours I don't have to have you sign a receipt Now psychologists have developed several theories on how humans learn for example it might help to reward a person sometimes it helps to punish them we do know

that punishment of thank you very much is a powerful incentive towards learning for example when a parent spanks a child however in fact we actually know very little about the effect of punishment on learning because almost no scientific studies have been done of it on human beings now one of You will play the role of the learner who will receive a mild punishment the answers incorrectly to a series of questions and that punishment will be administered by a teacher what kind of punishment are we talking well first let's determine which of you will be learner

and which will be teacher if you'll just choose one teacher guess I'm the learner huh good this is the machine for generating electric shocks now let's set up the Learner to receive some punishment if you'll just follow me into the next room is it okay if I leave my hat here yes that's fine now you might want to remove the jacket go ahead and have a seat now when you push one of these four buttons this box will signal light and the other room telling the teacher how you're responding to the questions know what kind

of questions multiple choice word pairs a strong-armed black curtain and so forth now we want you to memorize Them the teacher will first read them as word pairs strong arm for example and then he'll read only the first word strong followed by a series of word choices back arm branch and push now your job is to remember which of those words was originally paired with the first word strong arm right now you would indicate that by pushing one of these buttons here if you had thought it was the first word I had read back you

would push this first button here if you Thought it was the second word I had read arm you would push the second button so on so forth for the third and fourth word choices now if you get the answer incorrect you will receive an electric shock would you please roll up your right arm sleeve please and would you just help me strap him in to live in any excess movement nobody to limit any excess burns or blisters and you know I should say that a couple of years ago in the West Haven VA hospital determined

that I had a slight heart condition nothing serious but how dangerous are these shots well although the shocks may be extremely painful they cause no permanent tissue damage well we'll be communicating from the next room the lab coat I decided to make it gray white would seem to medical okay thank you know if you get the answer incorrect you administer the Shock by flipping one who switches here see each switch has a little red light above it now to give you the teacher an idea of the amount of shot the learner will be receiving we

think it's only fair that you receive sample shock yourself is that all right life can only be understood backwards but it must be lived forwards good now I'll ask you to close your eyes and just estimate for me the amount of volts you think you're receiving and close Let's buy this but it's Batman really begins know if you'll just use this scale here to tell me the amount of volts you think you received in the sample shock 195 no actually that's incorrect it was 45 volts all right okay learner I'm going to read you the

words and then I'm gonna repeat the first word and you're gonna tell me the pair for that word okay oh he doesn't have a microphone but he can't hear you okay keep it moving understand remember That each time he gives the wrong answer you move up one switch on the shock generator it is important that you follow the procedure exactly okay here we go blue girl nice day fat neck green ink rich boy fast bird blunt arrow soft hair cool cave gold paint in the first word blue boy girl grass bat correct soft rug he

finally into hair with increasing confidence he finds a rhythm that groove that is incorrect until 90 volts And we go gold dollar necklace moon paint incorrect 120 volts gold paint hard stone head bread work incorrect 135 volts wet night grass duck cloth incorrect 150 volts wet duck how do you know when a change a true and lasting change but it's about to overtake you eighth floor please are we going to the same party probably you know Doris iseman Saul Horowitz invited me Never heard of it should we continue talking and wait till it properly introduced

they're dancing well I study here in Paris what are you what about you Miguel I'm at a dance consol though I did spend some time in Paris what are you studying at you I teach some social relations did you just got that guy my phone number so if I wanted your number I could get it from him social relations what does that mean It's combination sociology anthropology psychology you know basically covers everything from the way people talk in elevators to the study of role-playing conformity Authority soft rug pillow hair grass incorrect 165 volts strong shock

please continue teacher he says he doesn't want to go on well whether the learner likes it or not you must go on until he's learned all the pair's correctly please continue teacher Calm down concentrate sad face music clown girl incorrect 180 volts he went all the way most of them do sharp axe needle stick blade no response from the learner must be interpreted as a wrong answer still laughing trying to hide face with hand something's happening to that man in there you please go check everything's okay not once we've started please continue teacher she accept

all responsibility The responsibility is mine correct continue please wet night grass doc cloth clenching fists pushing it onto table hey holding up on the necklace moon paint 375 volts dangerous severe shock let me out of here let me out damn me out of here you can't hold me in here get me out [Music] just like the picture colors thank you yeah Pick it seems I don't see no that's we could leave it here and you can move in that'd be easier wouldn't wet night grass duck cloth wet duck 435 volts okay brave woman soldier dog

horse brave woman 450 volts okay what now I'm at the end of 450 volts continue please the last switch again yeah buddy buddy could could you could be a dead in there the experiment requires that you continue go on please And it and his help doesn't mean anything well whether the learner likes it or not we must continue I'm sorry look I don't mean to be rude sir but I think you should go looking on I mean all you have to do is look in on him I'll look into that door cuz I'm not I'm

not getting any noise we're not getting no no sound here we must continue go on please the next word is white white cloud horse Rockhouse white horse for 150 volts again fair price rule skin sky wrong 450 again alright thank you we are um done with the experiment now I'm just going to speak with the learner I think you might be a little upset in the meantime my assistant would like to ask you a few questions if you don't mind yeah surely dr. Milgram how do you first I'd like good no thank you like to

ask you some questions yeah surely Oh why did you give him the man in the other room the learner the shocks well she she I I wanted to stop good cuz each time he gave me a shock the Chi hollered did it sound as if he was in pain yeah did he say he wanted you to stop the experiment yes did he have a right to stop the experiment I don't know why didn't you stop at that point when he asked you to stop why didn't I stop well cuz cuz he told me to continue

why did you listen To that man enough a man in pain well cuz cuz I thought the experiment depended on me ain't nobody told me to stop he asked you to stop that's true but but he's the UM you know the subject shall we say who was the who bore the responsibility for the fact that this man was being shocked could you fill out items 6 through 18 on the questionnaire in front of you please it's a pen I get a little skittish Nervous as I explained to mr. Wallace in the other room this shock

generator is actually used with small animals for laboratory experiments mice and rats and so forth the visual designation is actually misleading this shock generator has actually been adjusted so that the shocks were just slightly stronger than the shock you experienced are you all right I'm fine no hard feelings I probably would have done the same thing myself Each subject has a reconciliation with the learner that's the subject to maintain a secrecy so the future recruits aren't tipped off down the line we get more candid first thing I want to tell you is the men in

the other room wasn't being shocked the only real shock was the one that you felt early on we're really interested in studying your reaction to having to inflict pain on someone you don't know the experiments about obeying orders the Man in the other room works with us as a team Jim you can come out now he wasn't really being shocked he's perfectly fine we weren't trying to fool you we're just interested in studying your reactions I was worried sick I thought it was a good fella no hard feelings no hard feelings but you thought you

were really shocking him what do you want to make a noise anymore that's that's when I was worried I Didn't I didn't want to go on with it you did go on yeah yeah but I did not want who you saw you so how was how I was fighting it well you understand why we had to do it this way we wanted to get true reactions from people you see well you'll receive a copy of the report and the projects over until then we asked you not to say anything team ended up talking to someone

who is a potential participant how do you feel uh Having come down here done this now that you know I mean I know the truth um I don't mind well thank you very much for coming down we certainly do appreciate you giving us your time yeah Alan here will help your op we think you'll find the report very interesting Thanks yeah still get nervous you're cool as ice Oh maybe all those years of teaching high school give you sort of poker face Oh discipline I was thinking like a Gravedigger think you mean Undertaker domino effect

starts to kick in I teach his mind once he assumes the role get some women in here and my wife in this seat so we got nine kids first squawk she'd stop the whole shebang nine kids you sure about that oh yeah I have enough saved up to give them each a pair of socks if the electricity gets me brave man Jim all right like subjects [Music] I was born in the Bronx 1933 my father's from Hungary my mother Romania Jewish immigrants it was a matter of chance that they arrived in the US as children

and managed to raise a family in New York instead of being swept up into the extermination camps and murdered by the Nazis like millions of others like them in Eastern Europe that's really what's behind the obedience experiments the inkling I was chasing the thing that troubled me how Does civilized human beings participate and destructive inhumane acts how was genocide implemented so systematically so efficiently and how did the perpetrators of these murders live with themselves [Music] my daughter Michelle precocious child who at this point the story hasn't yet been born used to tell the kids at

school my dad's a psychologist but not the kind of talk to people lying down He's an experimental psychologist does experiments [Music] first let's determine which of you will be learner and which will be a teacher teacher so they both say that no one's caught on not a soul manager at the bank at the plumbing good Yuma man the Good Humor man was actually vicious crude mesomorphic obviously limited intelligence the script has kind of momentum carries them all man only every Hour tend to be a blur really so you lead them both but the teacher and

learner into the electric chair well we don't call it that but yes if you follow me into the next room please really does give you sort of authenticity I think well I think I'm a better actor than I am account maybe an hour shall we join enough to give you the teacher an idea of how much shock the learner will be receiving we think it's only fair that you receive a sample Shock yourself is that all right fair enough you write on please this is the only real shock right mm-hmm have you done it in

shock like that literally yeah uh-huh now if you'll just use the scale here to estimate for me the amount of votes you think you've received in sample shock I don't know you tell me well that was only 45 volts so go ahead and begin test he doesn't have a microphone but he can't hear you just speak into the microphone the rooms Are partially soundproof are you ready learner continues with robotic in passivity gardius - experimenter he seems to derive no pleasure from the actus incorrect the correct answer is box Curt an officious one saying correct

75 volts each time he administers a shock lips drawn back bares his teeth sweet candy girl taste pickle wrong sweet taste 120 volts look sadly at repairman Tori hearing continues rating wet wears wrong true Story 135 volts slow walk afterwards if alliance has music he agreed to it and therefore must accept responsibility wrong slow music 150 volts the Mon he seems to be getting hurt there is no permanent tissue damage yes but I know what sharks do to you I'm an electrical engineer and I have had shocks get real shook up by them especially if

you know the next one is coming I'm sorry it's absolutely essential that you do Continue I won't not with the man screaming to get out you have no other choice well I don't I have a choice I came here on my own freewill I thought I could help in a research project if I have to hurt somebody if I was in his place no I can't continue I've probably gone too far already I could have wept I mean he looked like he wanted to slug me out of gratitude you do understand I mean wept because

All day we've been getting nothing but wrong you do realize I have to sit and listen to you scream all day well so do I he was Danish Dutch thanks Lee wasn't his nationality that caused him to stop was it it was the fact that he worked with electricity they all seem to want to impress you for some reason mm-hmm but why why do so many the vast majority push all the way through to the final switch why is the Dutchman's defiance the anomaly instead of the norm all the Psychiatrists and psychologists I consulted were

convinced that we'd have trouble finding a single person that would go all the way through to the end I've been better off consulting the guy from Pepe's pizza oh you mean Pepe I think his name is Carmine yeah well you get my point the butcher the baker the candlestick maker I'd like to try it Sascha I don't even think of that and I've been in there supposedly getting Zapped to the maximum this really isn't necessary oh yeah but it's not harmful either right I just want to understand it better I designed a series of variations

25 and all and continued the experiments over the next two semesters we adjust the script so that the learner bangs on the wall that says nothing we ask the teacher to physically press the learners hand on a copper plate forcing him to receive the shock wrong 135 volts we Moved the experiment to a shabby office in Bridgeport to deduct the potential intimidation factor of Ivy League prestige and back at Yale we include women what did you just do he said ow did you turn off the machine I I thought that if it seemed like I

you know turn [Music] oh sorry machine please continue teacher okay short sentence movie time skirt I'm sorry that's wrong it's a short time In early every case the essential result of the sand they hesitates I trembled and grown but they advanced to the last switch 450 volts dangerous severe shock xxx because the politely told to the results are terrifying and depressant they suggest that the kind of character produced in American society can't be counted on to insulate its citizens from brutality in nu main treatment in response to a malevolent Authority Milgram Milgram is Hebrew for

Pomegranate so it remains one of the seven fifths of the Bible do you Jewish same with me you seem upset am i upsetting you I have office hours you can make an appointment you don't like surprises nothing thinking about the experiment a lot really rattled my wife but what it said about me she was me she'd like to thank you she wouldn't pull the switch do you know what what do you never know that's The thing how can you know you can't write know again look if it's any consolation a great many participants were prone

to nervous laughter but my wife actually is waiting for me at home for dinner what's leftover grant money we filmed the last two days of the experiment May 26th and 27th 1962 four days later paid off Eichmann is executed in Jerusalem Eichmann architecture the Holocaust responsible for the deportation and murder and Millions of Jews escaped charged in teen after World War two he was living with his family under the name Ricardo Clemente and employee Mercedes Benz when Israeli Mossad agents captured him in 1960 and brought him to trial Mike Minh didn't deny his crimes showed

no trace of guilt or remorse said he was merely a transmitter I never did anything great or small without express instructions from my superiors the Cradle rocks above an abyss and common sense tells us that our existence is but a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness let me out of here hey that really hurts I told you I have a heart condition I will not be in the experiment anymore nice day to wrap up in obedience I should tell you about ash Solomon Asch you ever saw my thesis at Harvard and I

worked for him diligently and miserably at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton ash did the lines about a dozen years ago the study you were taking part in today involves the perception of the lengths of lines as you can see there are a number of cards and on each card there are several lines your task is a very simple one you are to look at the line on the left and determine which of the three lines on the right is equal to it in length this is a recreation from a film I made in

the 70s Five of the six participants are Confederates the single true subject in the white t-shirt here's everyone else's answers before announcing his decision - so very good let's move on to the next card same thing gentlemen three three after the first few rounds members of the group choose the wrong line - - the subject denies the evidence of his own eyes and yields to group influence - very good thank you in a language of social science the experiment was known As the effect of group pressure upon the modification and distortion of judgments great title

MA - famous among social scientists it always bothered me that the experiment was about lines I wanted to do something more humanly significant tell you what a miserable time I had working for ash Princeton bureaucracy the institutional arrogance not permitted to use a scrap of paper Without it becoming an issue to be settled behind closed doors candy bar in the office and I was reported for a formal letter I assumed he'd introduced me to the leading intellectuals of the day this did not happen I assumed that he acknowledged me in the book that I was

researching for him a book on conformity he did not finish the book it was like drinking from a glass with a false bottom I thought there'd be more I was thirsty in an elevator Really they met an elevator and some please pacify the dog Here I am I'm still trying to impress him human nature can be studied but not escaped especially at all well I was on my way into this party and I could feel somebody walking behind me as I went into the building and we both got onto the elevator and it turned out

we're going to the same floor and one of us said I don't remember which are we going to the same party my Favorite was sealed he didn't leave my side the whole night and he drove me home and it turned out we we had a lot in common we were both from the Bronx my mother was born in Russia so my sister's friends her parents in Vienna had sent her and her brothers to New York during the war but when I was over there visiting they had just claimed their Factory and it was a coat

Factory and that's where I got this so yeah Well-traveled American girl born in Switzerland who took dance lessons in Paris isn't wearing a Viennese coat why haven't we met before why do you feel compelled to dwell on the negative aspects of obedience why must you focus on its destructive potential obedience isn't necessarily an instrument of evil I think we can both agree looking at recent history the history that brought you to this country a history in which we see abuse of power Assuming unprecedented murderous dimensions why does your experiment give me a dirty feeling he

didn't expect these results he tried to change the conditions so that people would refuse to obey we met in the library oh not him the whole time I'm sorry this is startling out of 780 subjects not a single person got up went to the door and looked in to see if the man screaming was alright not a single one sascha goes back to school smith college For a degree in social work my first obedience papers submitted almost two years ago to the Journal of abnormal and Social Psychology is finally published in October 1963 just after

I start a new job at Harvard assistant professor department of social relations am i impressed with myself being at Harvard well I got my PhD here Harvard is the best place to be subjects were seen to swear tremble stuttered bite their lips dig their fingernails Into the flesh and these were characteristic responses not exceptions and yet despite this behavior the majority complied yes how do you justify the deception I like to think of it as illusion not deception semantics you may say but illusion you know as a revelatory function is in a play illusion can

set the stage for revelation to reveal certain difficult to get at truth but still when you go to see a play you pay for a ticket you know You're seeing a play these people didn't know it wasn't real you tricked them hello today we'll be doing an experiment about blind obedience to malevolent Authority I'd like for you to pretend that this machine is delivering painful shocks to a person in the other room how truthful do you think that would be but if you think of it really you were delivering shocks to your subjects psychological shocks

and the anxiety ethically for one year if your facts We're solid is your imagination you'd realize that this is a false analogy and Kierkegaard says take away paradox from the think and you have a professor an assistant professor for the moment dr. Milgram and myself are only assistant professors it's true the gentlemen in the elevator now is a candid star these folks who are entering the the white shirt the lady with the trench coat and subsequently one of the member of our staff will face the rear and You'll see how this man he looks at

his watch but he's really making an excuse for turning just a little bit more actually it's true there's an element of illusion and almost all my work candid camera was a reference point I never deny them you can see that plainly enough in the last letter technique which I conceived of it Yale and was refined at her leave a letter a sealed stamped letter but unmailed to someone Else defined leave it on a sidewalk inside a store a phone booth put it under windshield wipers of a parked car with a note saying found near car

all letters are addressed to the same post office box but they're evenly split between four different intended recipients friends of the Communist Party Friends of the Nazi Party Medical Research Associates and mr. Walter Carnap all fictitious the innocuous content of the letters if anyone's Curious enough to open and read is a simple message from max to Walter proposing an upcoming meeting [Music] karna aadmi like the philosopher in two weeks out of a hundred lost letters to each addressee 72 was sent to the Medical Research Associates a 71 Ascenta mr. Walter Kona but a mere 25

to the friends of the Communists and the same number 25 to the Nazis we can deduce from this that the American Public has an aversion to Nazis and communists results that are reasonable and even comforting though not startling why not take it further takeda Mirada another student drive to Charlotte and Raleigh North Carolina to lose a new batch of letters [Music] [Music] when the letters come back the percentages once again confirmed expected prejudices pro-white letters Get mailed more often in white neighborhoods more Pro Negro letters get mailed from black neighborhoods the variation the Piper Cub

the flight low for Worcester Massachusetts spilling lost loads they land in trees ponds on rooftops not all my ideas have brilliant [Music] this patient panel Yale experiment shows many distraught over cruelty that did not start hard to see one's name in the paper objects have Been studied under 24 different experimental conditions I talk to him for over half an hour and I don't see a single direct quote dr. Milgram pointed out that from 1933 to 1945 millions of persons were systematically slaughtered on command gas chambers were built death camps regarded corpses were produced with the

same efficiency as the manufacturer appliance in this quote anyone else treats paper President Kennedy has been shot he was Shot in the motorcade in Dallas he was shot in the head it smell bad that's just experiments on stricter fake broadcasts like Orson Welles I wonder what that's really about this is real [Music] he gave me a deal when he realized he couldn't take it with him to London it's making a kind of a funny noise maybe you can have a look lives right across the street we just applied for financial aid Oh Jaguar right what's

he gonna who cares what he thinks I didn't say that well I didn't say that it's cheaper than you think oh I understand it creates the wrong impression do you I do are you just doing an imitation of someone who listens who's reasonable well we're gonna need to class is that the thing well maybe it'll impress the Harvard team okay thank so you return the car I did sensible hmm I don't know a single Tenured professor drives a Jaguar I didn't like the color well if you get turned down it won't be because of an

automobile but it's got to sting here it taxed criticisms the violent reactions that one man was going through a divorce it turns out they didn't take it personally I'm going through a divorce I don't spit people true that I am possibly more than commonly on edge but how would you feel If you picked up a copy of American psychologist who found yourself attacked in an article called some thoughts on ethics in research a response to Milgram's behavioral study of obedience psychiatrists many of you in this room predicted that only one person in a thousand would

deliver the shocks across the board an estimate that was off by a factor of 500 so what happened in the lab was discovered a plant but you expected you knew you were going to Worry some people stress in fact was a part of it well every every extreme stress every experiment is a situation where the end is unknown indeterminate something that might fail the indeterminacy is part of the excitement ethics the undertow wanted to ask I wanted to ask a question a series of questions about the psychological function of obedience the conditions that shape it

the defense mechanisms it entails the emotional forces that they Keep a person obeying as someone with pretensions as a moral educator let me suggest that science must enhance our moral personhood not not diminishes you force people to torture other people no to see you more no no that is alien to my view no one was forced right the experimenter told the subject to perform in action what happened between the command and the outcome is the individual with conscience and a will who can either obey or disobey I don't See how you can seriously equate victimization

in a laboratory con with a willful participation in mass murder victimization look when the experiments were complete all the subjects were sent this questionnaire there's some examples eighty-four percent said they were glad to have been in the experiment fifteen percent indicated neutral feelings 1.3 percent indicated negative feelings 1.3 percent four-fifths thought more Experiments of this sort should be carried out and 74 percent said they had learned something of personal importance about themselves and about the conditions that shape human action a year after the study a psychiatrist dr. Paul Aurora was hired to meet with subjects

who might have suffered possible negative effects this is not another experiment there's no trick here I can see why you may have your doubts this is a debriefing meeting we're here To assess the after-effects so tell us how you feel I'd like to know what the point is of it she learned something about human nature that was the aim professor Milgram I hope that I sincerely hope that basically you don't have the feeling that you would rather not have been a part of this experiment it's an interesting life experience I don't like hurting anyone and

I can't understand myself going all the way it left me Feeling guilty I told my husband I know I wasn't supposed to but I didn't do everything I'm told he said he wouldn't have done the shocks he would have refused I wanted to cry but I started to laugh I think I did both yeah I was quite frightened and I was quivering it's I I actually tried to memorize the word pairs myself so that if they switched it around I wouldn't have to get those shocks there's a tendency to think that everything a person does

is Due to the feelings or ideas within the person you haven't had your coffee coffee yes cream sugar I'll take two sugars both please yes thank you but sometimes person's actions depend equally on the situation you find yourself in and in this case the power of the situation overwhelmed your personal power I'm an understanding person okay I'm an intelligent human being speak the truth to me And I'll cooperate gladly even if it's a bitter truth but don't lie to me well the purpose was to advance science learn something maybe do this kind of experiment if

you have to deceive what you can deceive other people who don't deceive me we had half a dozen sessions with Aurora and invited subjects the meetings were sparsely attended full of confusion and complaints but we concluded that no one showed signs of harm no one had been traumatized Stanley Tom Shannon Tom did the wiring on the shock generator at Yale the shock box gonna dead at 49 sat down don't know he had nine kids maybe shouldn't I'm not such a large brood in the world no offense she's taking us to Paris for a stamp on

her passport Sasha thinks I need a vacation yeah they roughed you up pretty good about those results for tenure if I still go to work On you gotta finish your book now publish or perish right actually I got sidetracked working on the small world problem for the small world problem we asked people in Kansas and Omaha to mail a packet to a person in Sharon Massachusetts instructions is simple there's a target person in this case a stock broker named Jacobson Sharon mess assuming they don't know this person people are asked to mail the folder to

someone who might know him they can send It to a friend relative or acquaintance but they have to send it and this is key to a person they know on a first-name basis is a roster to fill out and a batch of postcards to mail back to Harvard to track the process well it worked we don't know a woman in Omaha sends the folder to a high school friend a bank clerk Council Bluffs Iowa she sends it to a man in Belmont Massachusetts a publisher who sends it to a Tanner and Sharon the Tanner Sends

it to his brother-in-law a sheetmetal worker also in Sharon sends it to a dentist who sends it to a printer who sends it to mr. Jacobs seven links in the average chain in fact involves 5.5 lengths that is we determined that less than six degrees of separation exists between you and several million strangers who you may or may not encounter in your lifetime when we understand the structure of this Communication net we stand to grasp a good deal more about the fabric of society maybe it's not necessarily justified this common human complaint the feeling that

we're all cut off alienated and alone I don't need to go into detail do I do the things I remember when I was 16 in Bucharest the killings torture terror why are you bringing this up now it's relevant the man was just turned down for tenure at Harvard you wish to give The tragedy some perspective it's not just earth because bear with me they took people to the slaughterhouse and strung them on meat hooks still alive cut open the belly slit Carol a five-year-old boy and they watched the entrails spill out of blood drain and

they wrote notes and they came the papers to the bodies kosher [Music] search was just giving me a lesson and reality the pogroms and Romania during The war the Iron Guard they need people on fire threw them off buildings this is my charming way of saying your husband's work is very important and timely because the techniques change the victims change but it's still a question how do these things happen how are they institutionalized deal Jerian war the tortures do you know about this in the States yet course you should do the obedience experiments in Europe

Stern France Germany we create them will it be different I don't who would fund them the experiments are unethical remember no tenure no funding and the IR B's the IRB is yes basically you cannot do these experiments without submitting something to the internal review board he'll finish his book and then Stanley wants to move on from the obedience experiments why not you look under a rock ugly things crawl out and we have to face them you're the experiments do The letters the maps clever you have to get back to the obedience experiments I do I

have to yes Stanley you have no choice my new job at City University in New York involves a jump in pay and full professorship headed the Department of Social Psychology city in New York it's a major laboratory to be utilized in the research and training of graduate students in social psychology that's from the CUNY brochure I wrote it sascha finds an apartment for us in Riverdale with a great view of the Hudson mark was born in 1967 he hardly remembers Cambridge even or especially when nothing decisive is happening time refuses to stand still [Music] I

walk to the station every morning take the train into the city I enjoy the routine today's assignment get on a local bus and then with the bus in motion and loud enough to be heard by your fellow Passengers sing your favorite song any song we want just as long as you know the words and can sing them loud clear para non-singer takes notes and switch roles you may say so what singing a song anyone can do that or I don't have to do that I'm an individual not a conformist or this is silly it doesn't

change the world to sing a song my answer to you is simply this get on the bus and sing now go right now come on no humming My next guest his professor of psychology at the Graduate Center the City University in New York he's written a fascinating book a disturbing book obedience to Authority an experimental view just published by Harper & row please welcome a very creative very controversial socio psychologist Stanley Milgram so your subjects they thought the shocks were real that they were delivering 450 volts for 65% of them but they were not Particularly

aggressive or sadistic people they were a representative cross-section of the average American citizen living within range of Yale University I thought yes we do the experiment in New Haven and there be very limited obedience and then we'd recreate the experiment and say Berlin and find the rate of obedience to be much higher safe a bit on airfare did you so let me get this straight you did the experiment in the early 60s and here We are 1974 and your book still feels like news why is that people don't have the resources to resist Authority that's

what the experiment teaches us but people don't want to hear it the experiment explains the kind of flaw in social thinking a deadening a suspension of moral value what would you say to your critics critics who would insist the moral lapse is yours and one of them cites the extremely callous deceitful Way the experiments were carried out another calls them morally repugnant vile um no broom belongs on the other end of the shock machine there's a certain kind of cough gas quality to experiments cough gas the experiment taught me something about the plasticity of human

nature not the evil like the aggressiveness a certain kind of malleability 65% of volunteers were obedient that left 35% who recognized a moral breach took Responsibility for their actions and resisted there is no permanent tissue damage that's your opinion if he doesn't want to continue I'm taking orders from him the experiment requires that you continue you have no other choice if this were Russia maybe but not in America but obedience compliance is more common you tell yourself I wouldn't do that I'd never do that but then what did Montaigne say we are doubling ourselves but

we believe that disbelief and we Cannot rid ourselves of what we condemned [Music] [Music] another one of my experiments Hank the CUNY grad student is the designated crowd crystal staring up the fixed point in space looking up at a non-existent something as you multiply the Confederates the people who stare up because we've recruited them to stare up the number of people actually stop and Look increases exponentially meanwhile obedience to Authority gets translated into eight languages and nominated for a National Book Award October 24th 1974 for twenty five pm Sheila Jaco J a c h o

working on the mental maps project comes in and tells me errors were made in the neighborhood map already duplicated in some 500 copies a facial expression captures the attitude that she's shown all along and her capacity as research assistant I was really very close Together on the whole both men and women are highly critical when studying photographs of themselves the vanity fact is extraordinary when people judge their own image do you ever worry that everything's sort of an anti-climax since the obedience experiments and that your work really everything you're doing is just a flash in

the pan the truth is you're invested in the idea of authority and you love lording it over all of us me and the other students and even your Wife me [ __ ] yeah I work here because I get paid for it and I actually think it's kind of fun Sheila what's wrong with you just keep doing what he tells you to do I don't get along with all my students a flash in the pan how many people can manage even that flash I've done some psych experiments but in my mind I'm still about to

write my great Broadway musical 427 p.m. Paul Hollander looking tenant fit pays a visit for Massachusetts and miserable I am so sorry Paul huh another marriage down the drain should have seen it coming good Oh sweetie she's erected a Berlin wall between me and my daughter nice place you got here isn't Harvard but thank you Harvard would never have given you an office half as grand as this I found us bewitching a secretary scarlet Marcus so I'm sure going to take my picture dinner I'm considering it You feel invincible one moment and then worthless the

next [Music] the camera begins to attract its own subject matter passive recorder but actively attracts the people of records Stanley Milton how did I get to be so old there's a chicken guard cause life you can always only understood October 24th 1974 4:29 p.m. conversation with paul Hollander interrupted by the arrival of a Messenger bearing at last the German edition of obedience to Authority with crass Bob we're covered his own mine what's her name Thomas shine my participating my experiment pinch this wants to take your picture everybody's doing it ok he's interested in unacknowledged power

of photographic images life can only be understood backwards but has to be lived forwards around this time I was also working on the familiar stranger We take photographs of commuters on a train platform each figure in the photographs are given a number the photographs are duplicated in a week later the students follow up hello I'm a student at CUNY would you mind filling out this questionnaire okay so do you recognizing those people No well that's me yeah anyone else not by name most neuters recognized on average for individuals that they see in their daily routine

but never speak to Familiar strangers amongst these are sociometric stars figures that they not only recognize but even fantasize about [Music] they wonder what kind of lives these strangers lead but their jobs are life and if they ran into each other in another place for some emergency jolted them out of this routine they might start to speak actually know one another I teach a CUNY and I see you out here you know all the time and I wonder about The things you must sing familiar what to teach Social Psychology City New York is a vast

laboratory I had no idea you were English you're English something that accent is real that isn't accurate he's very controversial have you read my book have you I don't get a chance to read as much as I would like so I read the review well there were many reviews what was the times wasn't it yes it was it was harsh it was nominated for an award but yeah who cares why disabuse Yourself what oh I don't want to make you angry ma'am just have a nice day okay it was a pleasure meeting you I was

bowled over when I first read about it and you in The Times and then I read the original material in this scientific journals and I mult multi mold and this moly produced the idea to do a TV play of a hopefully high caliber For an accepted show of a decently adult level treating in fictional form the kind of experiment you performed in its aftermath using it as a springboard for my own characters and situational inventions I I kept this you see how yellow Stan you're sorry help me I was just wondering your name its derivation

Milgram means pomegranate in Hebrew it's one of the seven fruits of the Bible I'm Jewish that's what she asked you Apple this is Another right face grapes olives they're a fruit anyhow when you point out the parallels the connections hannah arendt the banality of evil the My Lai massacre all that I see where you're coming from I'm here because a serious situation is pending with regard to the drama I propose Playhouse 90 the Columbia Broadcasting System CBS [Music] Michelle ma belle so though hi I was just gonna get some ice cream Now go I'm a

plane like this which is a lot he died that's right in his sleep luckiest way people say not to know what's happening mmm heart disease so before you got born before your mother could meet him here's a baker specialty what cakes maybe for me basically there are three types of people that's what your research confirms there's the person who makes things happen the person who watches things happen and the person who says What happened right I'm a dramatist I was explicit not a scientist no work is a springboard for revealing basic human truths you get

two consultants fee what's the problem it isn't about the money tell her to relax excuse me yes excuse me okay so you sold him the rights no it's a gray area it's your book it's your work it's your experiments so either you did it or you sold it or You didn't in the opinion of Harper's legal department we don't have a supportable claim not on the basis of copyright infringement because the show is fiction we finished with this they gave me a consulting fee is that enough your father's turning into a fictional character why yes

why why do they have to make you a [ __ ] it's not about me I'm just a springboard I don't know oh I say so you had no choice because I could just give the money back but they just Make the show anyway why don't I give the money back I'll give the money back that's a good idea you know what they don't just come in and statistically pull these switches Bingbing day you have an inner struggle not to obey and her pain is the evidence to it Steven what you're doing is very important

and I love the design its audacious and I am being careful which is why I've got tenure around here long before black became popular it's Tricky very true big criticism of anything breaking new ground there are times when your life resembles a bad movie but nothing prepares you if your life actually becomes a bad movie here's dr. Stephen Turner Stephen Stanley Turner Milgram Rutledge University a bachelor and wasp being played by William Shatner four years after his last star trek episode as he Davis plays his colleague And best friend you may find yourself teaching in

Siberia this has to be somewhat weird for you well I've made some films myself actually documentaries I think gauzy may have meant and I was wondering also do you have a best friend who is you know a brother I mean this tradition of a black best friend where did that come from we don't have a black best friend bill no do you this character isn't man I'm just a spending Did you know I did the first interracial kiss in u.s. TV history ah Star Trek sure I kiss Michelle Nichols on network TV controversial hmm but

you did it the network was nervous they insisted wish you an alternative version after in the close-up I did this first time 1968 in the history of TV I read about your experiments done you're having to use any black book yes of course They're the results they fed the same as everyone else roughly a 6% compliant you didn't force her threaten anyone right you know you know twisting one's arm no no you know the gun to anyone's head she brings to mind when I was six or seven years old coming home from school two policemen

called me over from their car come over here boy come on over no they tell me to get into the car and they take me to the precinct station Then one of them takes a jar of cane syrup and pours it over my head and they both laugh like it's the funniest thing in the world I laughed too and they're give me hunks of peanut brittle and let me go took me thirty years before I told anyone down south no it doesn't matter where and that's my point so you don't have to go to Germany

to learn about obedience to Authority was in the book actually it's the tenth chapter which people get To the agenting state in which the demands of the democratically installed Authority inflict with conscience the banality of evil I don't take responsibility do you take responsibility I take responsibility now count that is wrong no response counts is wrong you pull the switch stand down come on you pull the switch mr. Dahlquist that's your job no I won't nobody can learn anything like this was a time I suspect when men and women Could give a fully human response

to any situation when we could be fully absorbed in the world as human beings but more often now people don't get to see the whole situation but only some small part of it there's a division of labor and people carry out small narrow specialized jobs and we can't act without some sort of direction from on high I call this the agenting state the individual yields to Authority and in Doing so becomes alienated from his own actions mr. Dahlquist you agreed to the rules the agenting state is store policy it's I'm just doing my job or

that's not my job or I don't make the rules we don't do that here just following orders it's the law in the agenting state the individual defines himself as an instrument carrying out the wishes of others soldier a nurse an administrator an actor a corporate employee or even Yes academics and artists please continue the person has a choice he or she chooses to become agenting but once you assume the role it's almost impossible to go back can you please we always asked is there anything the man could have said to stop you from administering the

shocks and they would always say no I don't think so No I'm sorry to say 2,000 times a minute every time mark turn around in your seat PJ no one else translating PJ I hit this line about child development and it's the specific point when the growing child because they able to recognize the gap between what exists and what might exist and it occurred to me we choose our reality when we choose another person what does that mean marriage is not a fantasy no no right but but it is a choice you have to know

that I choose you every day I choose you 1984 1984 was a big year for me my Lecture fees peaked that was asked to speak all over the world about the obedience experiments of course in relation to Orwell's prophetic book a book that describes a totalitarian world where people are very good at thinking for themselves who can explain it who can tell you what fools give you reasons wise men never try 1984 was also the year that I died [Music] I was 51 [Music] excuse me we need to see a doctor immediately it's family Malcolm

this is my ID doctor - that's who treated me last you need to fill this out the agenting personality [Music] [Music] [Music] no one can truly know what they might or might not do when presented with the demands of a particular situation In 2008 a professor at Santa Clara University replicated the obedience experiments and got roughly the same results over 60% of volunteers delivered the full shocks in 2010 the experiments were duplicated on a French reality TV show Mizzou d'amour The Game of Death participants were egged on by a live studio audience over 80% went

all the way Alexandra Milgram Sasha continues to live in the apartment we shared Riverdale our children live with their children near Boston and Toronto Sasha never remarried the obedience experiments has cited and discussed in nearly every introductory psychology textbook worldwide my obedience film is screened for every incoming class at West Point and my methods and results continue to be challenged scorned debunked yet every time a new outrage is unleashed into the world sanctioned and systematic acts of Violence the obedience experiments reenter the conversation reframing unanswerable questions you could say we're puppets but I believe that

we are puppets with perception with awareness sometimes we can see the strings and perhaps our awareness is the first step in our liberation [Music] [Music] charity You may see a stranger you may see a stranger across a crowded [Music] you know even [Music] that somewhere you'll see again [Music] some enchanted evening someone maybe laughing you may hear him laugh night after night as strange as it seems the sound of his laughter will see your dream who can Explain who can tell you [Music] [Music] when five when you feel him Oh [Music] what you have once

you have found [Music] [Music] [Music] you