Os Segredos Dos Criativos White Que Mais Vendem | Guilherme Serraglio - Segredos da Escala #166

The first thing I do when I validate a creative is test new hooks. And what's the actual goal of testing these new hooks? Usually, I will either keep the copy and vary the format, or I will keep the format and vary the copy. Which one's gonna get results? For me, in all the cases I've seen, it's creative adaptation. You're an expert in white creatives. So how do you actually make ads, man? What's your very first step when you start building a creative? I break the creative down into three parts: hook, content, and call to action.

The best creatives I've ever made didn't come from that process we're doing here. The creatives born from that process are the ones that'll sell a little bit, like, sell more consistently. But that breakout creative that truly differentiates in the Market usually comes from this. Does a creative like that actually perform well? It really does. oh, really? It's one of the best performing ones. I don't know if it's too much, guys, to do an example live on the spot. We had a creative that was talking about... Guilherme Serraglio He's an expert in white creatives and helps

info-product creators double their ROI by making ads that don't even look like ads. In total, he's already generated over twenty million reais in sales with his copy. I already understood how you make the hook, and we debated a lot of interesting things here. Now once we have the hook ready, this content part right here, how do you structure that? Three essential things inside the content. First: so for me, as long as the content has those, no matter how it's being made, it's right on point. Man, I think I extracted something really interesting here, guys. Something

I was never able to get from anyone on the VTurb podcast. And man, I've recorded a lot of creative podcasts here. Another thing I also do that I see very few people doing, man, and this always improves CTR, plus it's the laziest thing in the world to do... Today I'm sitting down with Guilherme Serraglio. Guilherme has been writing copy for almost five years now, and he's already helped generate over twenty million reais. That's for several big operations in the market. And after that, right, after going through pretty much every type of funnel, every type of

operation, he reached one conclusion, the ad is the real eighty twenty of any operation. And that's exactly why, because of that belief, he decided to specialize in creatives for the white hat info product market. And in this episode, he showed exactly how he creates a winning ad, from audience research, to choosing the format, to building out the big idea behind the ad, so many different things, how he uses content trends, how he uses AI to speed up the whole process. Basically, he walked through step by step how he builds ads that actually sell. So look,

if this is something that interests you, something you think could add real value to your operation, check out this podcast. I think you're gonna Like it a lot. And of course, if you don't know it yet, it's called Scaling Secrets. Every week we bring on people who've already scaled their businesses, already scaled their offers, so that you, at home, can walk away with one, two, maybe even three tips, if the episode's a good one, and go apply them in your own business and scale it too. This podcast was created by VTurb, a company that I,

João Campos, helped found. And VTurb is a video hosting platform built one hundred percent to boost the conversion rate of your sales video. We've got eleven thousand companies, actually, more than eleven thousand companies using VTurb every single day to boost the conversion of their videos, everything from the biggest companies in Brazil to the biggest companies in the world, including, get this, Mindvalley, the biggest VSL advertiser on the entire Planet. So look, if you've got a VSL and you wanna make more money, host it on VTurb. And to help you get started, I'm gonna give you

fourteen days free, so you can test out everything VTurb has to offer for two full weeks. And after that, I'll give you fifteen percent off for two months, so you can keep using it, save a little money, and just be happy with VTurb. And of course, to grab this exclusive price, just click the link down in the description, you'll find it right there. Just create your account. And all the perks I mentioned will already be applied automatically. Sound good? Alright, enough talk, here he is, Guilherme Serraglio. So Guilherme, welcome to the VTurb podcast. Welcome, man.

So it is... Guilherme... Serraglio? That's right. Serraglio. Serraglio. Exactly. Hey, everyone... it's not Guilherme Serraglio. It's Serraglio. Alright. Okay. Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling? Nervous? Man, I'm chill. All good? The idea is just to have a cool chat. Share what I've learned, and help people out. Nice, that's what I'm hoping for, man. So, man, you know why I invited you? Why'd you invite me? You don't know? No idea. I have no clue. It wasn't just to buy you lunch, okay? Even though being with you and Luana is nice. But man, I've been

noticing a lot lately, this whole movement happening now in 2026, that thing I mentioned to you at lunch. And the podcast audience already knows, but I think, right, I'm not totally sure if it really is. But I'm pretty confident it is. That there's this movement of people who either used to do black stuffs, like black direct marketing Or just ran product launches for info products. There's a lot of these people coming into the direct marketing space to sell info products. And, man, I realized that, and VTurb also grew in that area. And I thought, man,

I should start making content about this to help more people out. So, man... You're a specialist in creatives, right. Which I thought was really interesting. So basically I invited you here so we could talk a bit about that. Sounds good. So look, I wanted to learn more about this, right, I wanted you to teach me. And as a result, teach VTurb's audience too, the whole digital market really. And today this is one of the biggest podcasts in the digital market, if not the biggest, all thanks to you guys watching us right now. So... a lot

of people are gonna see this. So this is why we're here today. But man, before anything else, okay? I remember we were talking. And you told me, like, man, before this I was behind the scenes. And then eventually you became a specialist. Now I know you've got your own products. You do mentorship too, stuff like that. And honestly I think it's cool, this whole thing of people starting to sell their knowledge, you know? Especially for me, I think it really helps VTurb because it means more people educating the market. So the more people like you

are out there educating the market, the better it is for me, because it qualifies the end customer. And that brings my churn down, right? Yeah, that's a great, a really great point. So man, how... How does that whole process work? Going from being behind the Scenes... to becoming an expert? Is that something that's hard to do? Do you think there's a specific entry point people should take? I see a lot of people doing... Just a launch and that's it, you know, using the audience they already built. Or through referrals, or even here on VTurb's podcast,

people come on and open up a... I mean, do some kind of launch. So what did you learn from that whole process, going from behind the scenes to becoming an expert? Alright. So man, honestly, it's been a long time that I've been behind the scenes, right? I spent five years just working for other people, just providing service. Inside operations, basically. And I see it as a huge pain point for people who Are really good at providing service, you know? Because especially in the traditional market, like launches, or even evergreen, for people who came from launches

and now do evergreen. It's a pretty tricky market, especially for copywriting. Why? Because people pay badly. So the copywriter does a ton, delivers a ton of value, especially in launches, which was where I really learned the craft. Man, it was late nights writing messages, emails. The same thing, over and over, and making next to nothing. Why do you think people pay so little? Do they not see the value, or does the copywriter just not generate value, or what's going on? Man, honestly, a lot of it comes from the launch school of thinking. That the copywriter

doesn't really impact the final result that much, because you think, come on. The guy's over there writing pages, writing and writing, messages, emails, even the creatives, which wasn't seen as that important back then, right? And kind of the specialists, or even the co producers, saw the copywriter as just a demand killer, basically. And honestly, for a long time, I was that demand killer myself, I'd just get the request, write it up to make it look nice, knock out what needed doing, and that was it. So I think a lot of it comes from not being

able to see. the kind of results that good copy can generate, you know? A lot of launches happen live, so a lot depends on the expert being good—being a strong Communicator, delivering a solid pitch, addressing different levels of awareness, and being able to move people out of the emotional state they're in and into the one they need to make a decision. And those kinds of things weren't really that tied to copy itself. But of course, there are exceptions. I know there are some major players who pay launch copywriters really well. But in general, it's always

been a role that. That always gotten paid less, Like, there were times I was running four launches at once and making only two thousand reais fixed, you know? Damn, man. And that's not... That's still common today. Yeah. Well, first of all... look, apologies to everyone in the launch space Especially because I don't know if I have enough experience to speak on it since I've never actually done launches myself. But I kind of feel like... the launch copywriter doesn't have as much leverage, you know, as a direct response copywriter does. Because of what you said, right?

You're doing a live event, and the expert has this huge connection with the audience. So to me it makes sense that people earn less. So... Yeah, honestly, as a copywriter, I'd much rather work with direct marketing, a direct response funnel. Yeah, one that pays commission. Instead of working launches, which might have commission too, but it's not something ongoing, you know? Exactly, and the natural path for a launch copywriter is to become a strategist later on. That's usually the move. So they can earn more, get a percentage, that kind of thing. But then, you end up

taking on a bunch of other tasks that have nothing to do with copy at all, right? It's more on the management side, stuff like that. But there's a lot of that. And in general, man, generally speaking, traditional launch companies, back in a time like, say, 2022. Man, you could pull anyone out of an in person job, bring them in, pay them a little, and they'd still deliver crazy results. But people never updated that pay scale over time. Especially for copy. So going back to what I said before, that's a real pain Point for people behind

the scenes. Man, this creative I made, this video I made. Sold five hundred thousand, but I'm only seeing three thousand. Yeah. What's up with that? Like, man, I built this crazy tool with AI that saved the company fifty thousand a year. But I'm still making like two and a half. It doesn't make much sense. I even see it from people who worked with me on operations, who come ask me today, man, what do you think I should do to break out and start selling my own knowledge too. Because these are seriously capable people. But they're

just not being valued enough. You know? So how'd you actually land those clients, man? Because you've got a presence there on Instagram. And I know you also put together an offer, right, a low ticket one. And you have mentorship programs too, so, without a doubt, you had to start somewhere, right, to make that transition. Yeah. I mean, the standard approach is to start with your existing network and contacts. You think, "Out of all the people I've worked with before the connections I've made at events, and people I know who I can offer this to and

genuinely help get results. You can take whatever your specialty is—whether you're a copywriter, an Editor, web designer, developer, a programmer... whatever it may be. What I was told to do, and what I ended up doing... Like, for example, at the beginning, Since we're not on payroll, for example, when someone leaves an operation, You walk out empty handed, basically. You've got the knowledge, but you don't have severance or some cash you're guaranteed to get, you know? Usually people leave these operations pretty broke. So what I was advised to do was pretty much what I ended up

doing, and it worked out great, basically going through your line of, your network of contacts. Picking a few people you know you can add a ton of value to, you know that if you step in, apply everything you know about copy, everything about management, about development. You know you can seriously boost that person's results, and then you charge them a bit more. It's not the ideal world, because you're gonna be delivering... Like... I was doing an implementation that was honestly a killer deal, charging way less than it was worth, but man, for a guy who

was making three. Four thousand reais a month. Charge an implementation of six or seven thousand and manage to save that money. So he can start testing other things later, that's a solid move. So the first step I took was that, basically looking through my network, figuring out who I could bring value to with the knowledge I had. So, man, I knew a lot of agency people, for example. So I closed a few creative packages, for example, for someone's agency. People who were running paid launches. I talked to them and closed a few creative packages. Clients

from friends, from experts I'd already worked with. I knew there was demand for it, so I went out, reached out, and started selling it, you know? Because people already knew me, already knew what I was capable of, already knew the results I'd generated. Man, when you show up with an offer that's priced below what you're actually gonna deliver, it's pretty hard for the guy not to. Not want it. But I think the main challenge, man, at that point. Is your ego, man. How so? Accepting that you have to charge less than you're worth. You know?

That was something I really struggled with. Even with Luana, back then, and when people told me it was an ego thing, I was like, damn, that's true. Which is basically. Accepting that, man, you're in a rough spot right now and you're gonna have to work. For less than you'd like, you know? Which is a necessary step to make that transition smoothly, so you don't end up like, in debt, taking out loans, that kind of thing. Yeah, right. So yeah, that's the tricky part, because even though sometimes you know that if you reach out to that

guy to sell him something, he's gonna want to buy your service, he's gonna want your help. But sometimes the... I don't know if it's humility, but... You have to put yourself a step below and say, no man, I'm in a tough spot right now, I just left my last gig, I need to save up some money, I think we can generate real results together. What do you think? Like, saying that, being in that position, is sometimes hard for a guy who knows he's really good. Who was maybe getting a lot of praise at his last

operation, that kind of thing. So that was a struggle I went through myself, and I see a lot of people going through it too. Interesting, man. Especially because if he already has results, like you said, at first. He's gonna... Have to, like you said, humble himself in order to find these. These other opportunities. But... You mentioned that... You'd go through your network, right, to offer that up. And you had a solid network to actually pull that off. Well, it wasn't exactly huge, but I had like three or four people I knew I could help, like

I said, agency owners, or clients I'd already worked with in the past, stuff like that. That's kind of a thing that... That's something everyone ends up having, once you start working in the digital Market, because you're gonna meet people, right? Yeah, the goal at that stage, man, besides saving up money, is to build a few case studies so you can later sell for what you're actually worth. Because at that point the guy's looking at you like... For example, in my case, You worked as a copywriter for other operations and You're charging me for a specific

service here, You don't have experience with, like, you don't have a company built on this yet, so maybe you don't really know what you're doing. And honestly, at the start, you really don't know what you're doing. So it's about proving to future clients that you can deliver results, but also proving to yourself that you can actually deliver for this guy. Got it. So the goal, besides saving up some money, is also getting your first case studies, right? Got it. And how'd you actually build your following on Instagram? Did that come from content. Or from that

low ticket offer you ran that brought in followers? Because when you run an offer, you gain followers too, right? I know that's kind of a side effect. So, I spent like. Let's say from November through January of. Of last year. December 2025 through January 2026. Producing content. Two months, basically every single day. And in those, I don't know. Ninety days. I must've gained like three hundred followers. So honestly, the content barely made a dent. And then, once I actually started running the low ticket offer, within two months I gained ten thousand followers. So it was

one hundred percent because of paid traffic, basically. Yeah, that's a total cheat code, right man? Would you recommend someone go that route? Building an info product? Or do you think the very first step should be those mentorships or services he's gonna have to provide people. And, something that... Actually, I'm not totally sure. Well, it's possible making the info product is harder, right, than doing the mentorships. I think the... Mentorships, consulting, or services in general are gonna be an easier thing for Someone to do, right? It's also easier to sell at the start. I mean, it's

not necessarily easier to sell, but it's worth more. Because, man, you'll be racking your brain trying to sell a fifty dollar, a five hundred dollar product. How much would you have to sell just to save up enough to cover one month, two months, until you land your next thing. So, I think it's like this... You have to think about it, in my case at least, and I think this applies to most cases. Always thinking about the top product you're gonna sell, you know? Like, the best consulting you can deliver, the best mentorship you can deliver,

the best service that generates the most results for the client and that You can charge the most for. And then use both your content and your network, and later the low ticket offer too, or any kind of info product. As an acquisition channel for that top product. Because at the start, that's what's gonna put money in your pocket. Sure, there's that dream of running the low ticket, hitting a three x, four x ROI, and scaling like crazy, that dream exists. But the rule of thumb is usually that these products help more with Boosting your visibility.

Getting people into your funnel so you can sell the other stuff later, sell your higher ticket product down the line. And man... This whole thing, right, this structure. Like, oh, I'll have a low ticket, the mentorship, whatever else. How'd you actually learn that stuff? Was it just by osmosis? Like, were you in an operation that already had this set up, or did you take a course, something? Because on its own, that's a... That's real knowledge, you know? It's an achievement too. This whole structure you've built. How did you actually put that together? Man, I got

lucky, on my first project, we'll talk about this later. The guy really followed Russell's philosophy, so I ended up reading, I read the trilogy, like, four years ago or so. Russell's trilogy. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember the names of the books? Yeah, Traffic Secrets, Expert Secrets, and Dotcom Secrets. Nice, It will show up on the screen, okay? All these Russell Brunson books will show up on the screen. And there's also... You said Traffic Secrets, Dotcom Secrets, and which other one? Expert Secrets. Expert Secrets. That's the one I was gonna mention. It's got the perfect webinar

framework in there. Russell Brunson's Perfect Webinar framework. Which is the framework I actually used to sell a VTurb webinar. I had an ad I used to run, not sure if you ever saw it. I was saying like: 'did your VSL die? Something like that... you know? Man, I actually bought Upsell Secrets back then. Ah, Upsell Secrets. But I haven't seen this other Webinar. Upsell Secrets, I think it was... I'm not sure what it was. Not sure if it was a low ticket. It was a low ticket. I think it was forty seven reais, something like

that. Yeah, something like that, right? But the idea was to generate customers for VTurb, though in the end it didn't. Actually. It could still work, I'm not sure. Right. But I get it, man. So this guy, this first guy, was the one who taught you this whole funnel thing. To help you better understand the. The digital market business. Exactly. Actually, not quite that much, it was... It was more that he introduced me to Russell, he didn't really teach me that Much about funnels directly. So after that I went and studied on my own. I bought

a course from a guy. I don't remember the name. Of the course itself, but it was kind of a translation of the books, just in lesson format. So I studied that stuff back then. Did you buy it from Brasão? Fernando Brasão? Man, it was from José. From Mamba? That's the one. Ah, okay. I don't remember his last name. The, José's last name, I don't remember it either, but shout out to José. That guy's amazing. He's really good. Yeah. Totally. Over at Mamba, those guys are really good. I bought his course back then, and that's where

I learned, like, he basically walks through the whole book in there. And after that I picked up the actual books and started reading them. I don't Remember much, honestly, I remember Dotcom Secrets the most, that's the one I applied the most. But that's where my whole understanding of funnels started, basically. But more so in the last, the last few years, in the last operation where I worked as a copywriter, that's where I actually got to apply it in practice. That's where my job was testing funnels, writing new products, creating offers, that kind of thing, and

that's where I really got to apply and master it. So, like, for me. It was already kind of obvious. Man, I need to start out with a value ladder already... Basically I need to start with a higher ticket product right away to be the top product. So why did you... decide to go down this whole ads route? That whole... "oh, I'm Gonna"... You take what people teach over on the Black side, and translate it for the white crowd, for info products. Why not sell something else. Yeah. Man, this comes from the last operation I worked

on, like, out of my six years in digital, I spent four years just doing launches. So, for the last two years, I've been focused on evergreen funnels. That was the main type of operation I got into. But I came in still with that launch mindset. Like, I was doing some things... What's that mean. Man, I think it's that task killer mindset, you know. Not really thinking about how much this is actually moving the needle, like how much this headline I Tested is affecting the results. how much this creative I tested is moving. So I got

in there, and there was a bottleneck in the funnel, upsells that weren't converting, order bumps with low conversion. checkout converting low. And I kept tweaking things, and it'd go up a little, a little here, a little there. But no, I just wasn't hitting the targets they set for me. for improving results, and so on. And then I started noticing, man, that every time. I nailed a new creative... the funnel broke records. So, every time, like. The creative, actually it's even worth telling you about that before I say. how the launch people, how the launch copywriters,

and how I saw creatives. Man, it was a necessary evil. The expert probably wasn't gonna film it. So we'd have to run the whole launch on static creatives, using whatever the expert filmed. Damn. And that's exactly it. It was the last thing you'd think about while writing a launch. Oh, everything's ready. Cool, now let's make the creatives. even though today we know the creative's the tip of the funnel. And so. I entered the evergreen space still carrying that mindset. And then I started seeing, man, that every time we managed to validate new Creatives... we'd get

the funnel to scale. So we'd validate a creative, and it'd sell, I don't know, five, six, seven grand a day. Then a new creative would drop, start selling ten, eleven, twelve for a week or two, and I'd think, man. Why am I sitting here worrying about the email someone gets after buying the thing, thinking about the checkout banner, what's gonna be on it, thinking about the order bump copy, what it's gonna say, when that's already kinda within the benchmark of what we expect. Like, you can optimize it, but. it won't move the needle much. But

if I put my energy into creatives, we could sell way more, I could blow past the numbers they're setting. And that was it, Man, so I started studying creatives hard. And what... I mean... Go ahead. And... And actually, that's even when I started watching the VTurb podcast. Oh nice. Nice, man, that's awesome. Was the podcast good. It was good, real good. Cool, man. Yeah, so I'm guessing you learned about creatives here on the VTurb podcast, at least a few things. Yeah, most of it honestly. Most of it. Like, what really changed the whole way I

made creatives was actually Kobata's podcast. Oh, Kobata's. Yeah, exactly. When it dropped I was like, damn. It'll pop up on screen, guys, the Kobata podcast. Which I forgot that... I remember he had that transition thing where he'd say something totally absurd. and then he'd soften it and build the tension. He'd say something like...how Did it go... "Fat women deserve to be cheated on." Yeah, like that. ''That's what people say, right? But the truth is..'' and then, he says a different idea. So that technique of his stuck in my head, man, just shows how it leaves

a mark, right. But yeah, real good. And, man... So, when you first started studying about this stuff... Yeah, here at VTurb, the biggest podcasts we've got, on creatives specifically, honestly the vast majority of them, they're creatives made for physical product funnels, funnels for... For nutraceuticals, stuff along those lines. We've got some podcasts that... and by the way, it's not like these things don't apply to info products, okay, of course they do. So how'd you go about translating the creatives you saw over there into info product ones, is that hard to do.... how's that work? Man,

so... So at the start I made a mistake that I think most people make too. trying to make everything exactly the same. So I would... I mean, I knew the offers those guys had. Stuff they mentioned on the podcast. I'd go digging through swipe files, the library, and I'd think: gotta do it just like this now. But then, man, we'd test it. We'd throw in, yeah, a catchy hook, something along those lines too. We'd make the visual hooks with, maybe something satisfying or some random video that'd just grab attention. And that just didn't work. I'd

try to follow more or less the structure of the, the creatives out there, I'd grab a creative from, from Nutra overseas and try to adapt the structure for our products, and some worked, some didn't. I saw that what actually got results was doing kind of like, upgrades, you could call them, taking the creatives we already had and adding in elements I picked up from other creatives, you know. So, for example, man, this creative we've got here, it's got no demonstrative proof element. Man, let's throw that in. So I'd add it, and it'd sell more. This

creative here, it doesn't have... I don't know, No list of benefits after the first CTA. I'd go re-shoot it, add that in, and it'd sell more. So it was kind of adapting bit by bit, things I was learning, elements inside the creative. bringing them into what we'd already validated, into what was already selling. That worked out really well. And then over time it got kinda like that whole boat thing, right, where you swap out all the planks, is it still the same boat or a different one. Got to where nothing was left of what we

used to make. But it was kinda... It was selling well, selling more than before. A totally different way of doing things. That's so interesting, man. Wow, that boat analogy is really cool. You keep swapping piece by piece, and eventually it's a whole different boat, right, the material, even though it's the same concept. But yeah, got it. Yeah, and man. So you picked it up, you learned about ads, then you decided, you saw that this, that this, the... oh man! You saw this was the thing with the most leverage, so you started to. specialize even more

in that, and then you built your whole ecosystem there, right, mentorships, info product, all of it. Got it. And man. So, uh, how do you do it, dude, when making ads. What's the first step for a creative. There's two... There's two scenarios, right. So we've got the scenario of. I'm gonna test an offer, create a new product. How do I make creatives here. And then there's the scenario, you've got a validated product, that's already selling, already scaling, and I'm gonna make new creatives. Let's imagine we're in... let's imagine we're in the new product scenario. New

product. Yeah, I'm thinking of doing it like this... look, let's talk about this new product thing, since eventually we'll have to renew that offer. Then we would talk about the second scenario. But imagine I'm gonna make some new creatives for. For VTurb's low ticket. Actually now I kinda wanna make a low ticket too, because you bought that Upsell thing. So. I could teach the launch crowd something, man. To bring into VTurb. Might even bring back that Upsell offer. But anyway. But imagine, man, that we've got... An expert over here. We're gonna launch his offer. and

we gotta make some creatives for it. What's the... What do you actually do? Nice. So, thinking about this situation where we've already got the product defined, the mechanism defined, what's the... Like, where we're positioned in the market, right. What are the other offers out there... We already know all Of that. That's something you research then. Yeah, that's the whole research and product creation part, really. This whole research part, alright, that people actually have to do. Once they... Once they've got a mechanism. So. that's already there, since it's from the VSL. And all that extra market

research, and so on, is that something you always do when you're starting a project. Always do it, and it's a... It's a living organism, man, every week we're adding stuff, taking stuff out, tweaking it as we go along. Actually, I think before we move on to... the methodology itself, of creating... Now that you mention it, gotta talk about research, man, research. Yeah, was gonna ask you that. Audience research, mainly. And market research too, but mostly it's audience research. Because here we need to understand, like, in my offer testing method, for my first creative tests for

an offer. I want to find three things. First I wanna find out which mechanism's gonna sell the most. Or rather, what's the mechanism angle that'll sell the most. What persona archetype is most likely to buy this product. and also which format's gonna work best. Hold up, man. Just take it easy, that's a lot of info, I'm lost here. Yeah, so in the research to kick things off, to start actually making your... your creatives. In this research you wanna find three things: the mechanism angle, the best seller. the archetype of the person buying, And the third

thing you mentioned, I forgot. And the third thing you mentioned, I forgot. It's the format that'll sell most. The format. Right. That's not... That's not something I find in the research. In the research I'll find the options for the mechanism angle, the options for the persona archetype. And in this first test I wanna find which ones are the best, you Know. Got it. So, before we move on, man, explain to everyone what... What are these... What's this whole thing about a person's archetype. What is that. Man, let's think about it, because like, when we're gonna

make a sale, there's audience research. You'll have the info there, the age. the person's gender, whether they're married, whether they've got kids, what problem they're dealing with today, what's causing it in their life, what problems they've got, pains, desires, the basics. But when we wanna create a product. that's gonna reach a lot of people, that's got scale potential, we gotta start thinking about persona archetypes. In other words, what types of people might also buy this product, that's the personas, right, that we usually talk about, but why do I like looking at the archetype. Because, for

example. Archetypes, for anyone who doesn't know, are kind of like a stereotype, you know? Like when you're walking... You're walking down the street, and you see a blonde, blue-eyed girl in a private school uniform. She's got that rich-girl archetype, you kind of already know how she's gonna act, how she behaves, the way she talks. You already have that sort of pre-programmed naturally. And archetypes, we've got some archetypes that are universal, and we could get into Jung here. But in this case I wanna understand what the archetypes are within my target audience. So if I'm selling

weight loss, I could sell it. to the woman who's engaged... and getting married in three months, I could sell to the mom of three who wants her body back after pregnancy, I could sell to the sixteen year old comparing herself to her friends who are... who are skinnier than her. So, like, understanding what these archetypes are, you know. Like, knowing exactly how to use it in the creatives. Because, usually, there'll be one, two, or three archetypes that stand out. Within that whole general audience, that's where you'll make a ton of creatives to... to sell. Got

it. Alright, makes sense. So, when you say archetypes, Actually, let me see if I got it, okay. When you say archetypes, are you kind of trying to say. It's kind of... the type of avatar, the type of... The person over there who's gonna be buying, and they might buy weight loss, but for different reasons and in different contexts. There's the mom wanting her body back, the younger woman comparing herself. And it's important that we map out all these options. Because in theory, one of these options we mapped out, one of these archetypes, is a good

one, that when we talk about it, we'll hit the nail on the head with the market, and then that's gonna, in theory, right, make the whole thing work. Is that right. Exactly that, it's because, like, thinking about the... The... the skeleton of the target audience, man, there's age, there's demographics, there's pains, desires, but each one of these archetypes is gonna have totally different info, you know. So sometimes you're just focused on one audience, and you're missing out on a huge, huge chunk of the market, a ton of scale you're not using because you never stopped

to think, okay, besides this audience, who else could buy this product, who else would care. Who else relates to what's in my VSL. Man, why do you use that term archetypes anyway? When you said archetype I thought you were gonna talk about that thing from... you know, the archetype of the wizard, the teacher, whatever, thing X, thing Y. Why'd you use that term, archetypes. Nice. First off it's pretty. It's a nice word. And second, man, because I think it's something that really... that really got to me. I feel like it really captures what I'm trying

to say, you know? Like... In that operation I mentioned. The one where we started working with evergreen funnels, When I moved from launches to evergreen... We were selling an archetype assessment. So it was an area I studied a lot, that I really dove into. Oh, I see. And it's kind of these... these persona types, stereotypes, but it was the easiest way I found to translate that concept. I see. That's it. Do you even use that definition from... Actually, using the... the standard archetype context, like the wizard archetype, does that not fit into your method? when

it came to creating creatives and thinking about the target audience, no. It comes in more when we talk about how we wanna position the expert, or position the person themselves, you know. But when it comes to the audience, it's more about... about what kind of person they are. Not whether they're, like, the lover, or the wizard archetype, or the caregiver, stuff like that. Which is wild. Lover of the wizard? That's a real thing? The lover archetype... The wizard archetype... Oh, okay. the caregiver archetype, stuff like that. Cool, nice. Yeah, man, I got the archetype part.

So you're looking for, you know, who the possible buyers are here, and what their context is. Got it. And then you also mentioned this mechanism angle thing too. which is another thing you're looking for too. Mechanism. I get what that is, man. The way that... the vehicle by which delivers the benefit to the person, gives them what they want. But when you say mechanism angle, what I'm picturing here is the way you actually sell that mechanism. But tell me a bit more about that, what actually is this mechanism angle. Man, basically it's the way we

connect the main element of the creative with the mechanism. So, for example, I could bring my... my solution mechanism, my unique mechanism, and compare it against other mechanisms the guy already tried that didn't work out. I could bring my mechanism by telling the story of how I discovered it. I could bring my mechanism telling the story of a student who applied it and got results, you know. Basically it's the way that... I'm gonna connect my whole creation there. The main element of the creative with the mechanism. The way I present this. This new solution to

them inside the ad. That makes a huge difference, man. I've tested that a ton. Usually one or two stand out, and then you just keep replicating Them in other creatives that work. Let me see if I got it. I had to say that line, right? Wasn't gonna get through this podcast without saying it. So, what you're really looking for is the way to sell the mechanism inside the creative. Exactly. And there are ways to talk about the... The creative side. Not the creative, but the mechanism. And there are ways to talk about the mechanism in

a way. Different ways. One of them is telling a story about how the mechanism was discovered. Another one is just, I don't know, just announcing the mechanism outright. So You're looking for that kind of thing, right. Exactly. Like... How can I make this clearer so people understand it better—and, as a result, it sells more? In practice, what is this exactly? You... Like, is it a line you write down? Is it an idea? How does that actually happen in... In real life, like... If I was watching in some way, like, if I was a little bird

on your shoulder watching, what would I actually see, you know. Got it. I'll give the example from my product, where I tested this most. For example, the product is a library of fifty validated ad formats. So, how could I present this? Over the last few months I cataloged the fifty formats that scale the most and put it all on this panel. That's it. I brought how I actually found out about the thing. And I could also say: man... I dove into operations overseas and found out the fifty formats that scale the most, and put it

all on this panel. So, in a different way. And it could also be kind of like this too. I tested, I experimented, spent six months testing formats around here. And I found everything. Everything that works best. So I presented my discovery story, presented my mechanism in three different ways, one of which will probably sell more. And then there's a lot of other variables inside that too, tons of other ways to bring it, but basically. That's how it works. Got it. Those three seem to be about discovery, right? Like, I discovered this thing. So, from what

I'm getting... When you're looking for mechanism angles, that's really just different ways to open the ad, and they might even be from the same vein, like: they're all discovery, but I discovered it through the American market, or discovered it some other way. But either way, you end up with several different ways to kick that off, right. Exactly. But man, here we've got a, a ton of different ways to start, right. Like, you could do, I don't know, fifty? Don't you think? You could. You could do infinite ones, but that's where the research comes in. How's

the market presenting its mechanism. Are you gonna stray far from that? Probably not. You'll do similar things until you find what works better.... Of course you'll adapt it for yours, but... I usually look for how the market's presenting it. And bring it my way. I see. So look, the first thing you're gonna do, when we're about to make an ad, is that audience research, and there's those three elements you mentioned. which is, what are the possible personas I'm selling to. what are the ways to present the mechanism. And finally you mentioned format, right. Explain it

to the folks at home, okay? They probably know, but just to be safe, that's the phrase, right? Or not? It is, right. Yeah, explain to everyone what format is and why it matters. Man, format's basically just the way your content is packaged up. So, for example. If I start my creative by answering a question box. That's in a question box format, I'm answering a question. If we're here, and I record a creative on the podcast talking with you, then make a post out of it, that'd be a podcast clip format, for example. It's more or

less the way we're delivering the message. In other words, I could have the same copy, here with you, us talking, but I could do the same copy pretending I'm on a FaceTime with someone. I could do the same copy with Luana interviewing me. I could do the same copy with me talking to a clone of myself. Anyway, lots of ways. Wow, it's true, there's that clone thing. Yeah. And it works well, man. Really? it must work, right? Like, there's that entertainment part, no doubt about it. but man, so you want to do those things there.

And then you want to find those three things. The archetype, the format, and the mechanism angle. I already get what that is. But how do you find that in the first place? What is, you know, like, what's the actual source of truth you use for research? Back in the day, right guys, I mean, back then, you know, I'm from the era when there was no AI. So nowadays we Have this thing, this so-called AI, that does a lot of cool things for us. And back then, I did it the hard way. I'd go on YouTube,

I'd type in the niche keywords. and I'd think like: "Man, look, I'm a woman who wants to lose weight. what would I do?" I'd put in there: "How to lose weight?" But I want to lose weight fast, so how to lose weight fast, without dieting and without exercising. And then I'd find a bunch of stuff there, and that would be the foundation of my research. Do you have these places you go to, that you consider to be superior, or ways for you to research? Man, today I do a lot of research with AI, right? So

I input a lot of the answers I already have, what has already been tested or not, but in this case, we're creating a product from scratch, right? So we're going to do standard Research, we go to the YouTube comments, go to the Instagram comments, understand what the main players in this market are saying about it, what are the most hyped videos on this topic. Except that nowadays you can outsource all of that to AI, right? You make a mega-prompt there, it's going to research all of that for you and bring you a massive report on

the main stuff. The key thing here is for you to know what you want to look for, exactly what you want it to hunt down, because today you tell it to search, and it's going to search. So it's important for you to know the list there of what you need to know so you can build this thing. I use AI a lot in the process. Which one? Today I use Claude, but I used to use GPT a lot. I've used Manus, but today, since I'm more familiar with it, I use Claude, and for research, Gemini

is also Very good. I think it's very good, because I don't know if it's because it's inside Google, whatever, but it brings more precise information based on my analysis. Yeah, everybody has that copy, right? Like, "Oh, Gemini, since it's from Google, it works better." I fell for that too, okay? I use Gemini for research, Claude for basically everything else. Yeah, exactly that. but your filter will be those three, I mean, those three pillars here, right, man? Like, what are they, how do I go about presenting the mechanism, who are the people who might buy, which

are the archetypes, and what are the ways we are selling. But you send that to the AI then, and the AI gives you the result. Yes. In that case, like, in that specific case, the mechanism, usually we'll find those angles, those things, during the research phase when we're creating the Product. So when it's time to make ads, that's already kind of ready, you know? You already know what the core mechanism is there, how your market is pitching this to people, so it's already kind of like: "Okay, yeah, this is pretty much what I'm going to

test." And then you can even ask the AI to give you, right: "Hey, this is my mechanism. Give me, let's say, 10 ways to present it here based on everything we've already seen, etc., etc." It ends up bringing some good ideas, some bad ones too. And the output yeah But you have to go filtering there, seeing what is like... Yeah, I would assume that the output would be garbage, if someone asked me, because of the lack of context. Then this— It can be, okay, like, in the same conversation where you did everything Else, you know?

Theoretically, it has the context, but even so, it puts out some nonsense there. Like, the context you're going to give it there, I think that... well, actually, you know more than I do, right? You're the one doing the thing. But, yeah, probably, by the way, what do you think about doing spying, like, using spy tools to find those ads that people are running, you know, out there? Because at the end of the day, like you said, we're going to need the ads of the people who are running them. Then a great source for that are

spy tools, right? Or is that not in your process? yes it is. But it comes in way more during the product creation phase, because to create the product, you have to see people's ads too. And even more so When we talk about that second stage over there, which is creative variation, having a much higher volume of ads running. Uh-huh. But I use spy tools a lot. I use— can I say the name? Of course, man. Today I use SwipeOffers to do this research, which for me is the easiest because it keeps things more organized to

find this, which belongs to Henrique Trevizan, by the way, a shout-out there. A shout-out. And basically, I find there what the main offers are in the niche, the ones that are in there, you know? Which are not necessarily the main ones. And then based on that, I start finding in the library what is running today, right? So we can access those data points and map out how people are doing it. Uh-huh. And man, what about regular spy tools? Like, where you actually do the spying yourself, because this Swipe one you mentioned, Trevizan over there will

give you the thing: "Look, here it is, take it, all nice and neat for you," you know? And it all kind of depends on him, he does the spy work and sells it to you. That's what happens. and what about doing your own spy work, like, going into the ad library yourself, using something like DeepTube, an actual spy tool. You don't do that? yeah man, I do. I actually use Swipe Offers more to, like, more to understand what is being run in the niche and to find the keywords that will bring me those offers that

are scaling higher, you know? Oh, I see. So then I go into the library there and do the basics, I search, I filter by ad volume, right? Because there's that little extension from Swipe Offers too, I Filter by ad volume, take a look there, keep saving, downloading, looking, and then afterward I dump everything into Claude for it to map out what is being done, right. I used to do it by hand a lot, but nowadays, thank God, you can do it— ...so much faster. so in this case, you download the ads and transcribe them. And

then you just drop the transcription into Claude. Exactly. And what do you ask it to do with the transcription? Man, basically, I have the... I mean, today I use the skills a lot there, right? So we have the structure extraction skill, which basically, I created my own process of invisible structure extraction, to understand what the creative format is, understand what is selling, what the angle is and all that, the way I do it. And then I kind of taught it how to do it there, and then it becomes, like, it kind of does this automatic

process. But basically, what's The deal? It's to understand primarily what the format of that ad is, what the main big idea is, and what the structure is. So, like, it starts with curiosity, brings proof right away, uh, makes a smoother transition, goes into a problem presentation, agitates the problem, like, understanding these nuances inside the ad, you know? When you say big idea, would that be this mechanism angle or nothing to do with it? Not necessarily. What is it then? Big idea is the central idea of the ad. So, like, my explanation of a big idea...

every copywriter has one, right?! Yeah, that's my beef with big ideas, you know? Like, it's something very complex, like, ambiguous. Uh-huh. Mine is basically like this: what do I want to prove to the person and how am I going to prove it to them, you know? Like, man, in that case we talked about, let's say, the archetypes there, for example. I want to prove to the person that they need to discover their archetype to be able to sell more on Instagram. Man, like, how am I going to prove that? Through a dialogue between two people

showing the confusion, in this case, I'll explain this to them by showing the confusion caused by a profile that doesn't have a defined archetype. And then later comes the how I'm going to show it, which is the format. So for me, the big idea is pretty much that, what do I want to prove to the person, how I'm going to prove it to them, and why it actually matters right now. When we're talking about ads, right? Uh-huh. But then... alright, then once you've done that extraction, from what I'm understanding here, right, so dude, your process

of making ads, I mean, when we are creating new ads, it starts way back at product creation, right, and then there are some elements there. And what are those elements? And mainly this competitor research, right? And after you have that, then you go on creating other things that are not the ad, but you have the resource, the raw material for it back at the beginning. Then when the time comes for you to actually create the ad, then you're going to look at these, I mean, at these three additional elements here, which are the mechanism angle,

the archetype, and the format. So, in practice, you have yet another stage, which is this competitor research stage. Exactly. What I'm understanding here is the following: first, you're going to do competitor research to see what everyone in the market is talking about, then you're going to do research on the mechanism angle, archetype, and format. Is that correct? Or did I completely misinterpret it? I'm trying to understand your process, so if I said something stupid, correct me. You got it confused because we jumped straight to the ad. But assuming that, look, we have the product ready

and we're going to make the first ads for it. A lot of stuff has already been done. So it's what we're talking about now, yeah. It was the research, the spying, the offer briefing, how to understand what is being run there and all that. But it's pretty much that, yes. So you do all the research, build the product, understand what the mechanisms are there that we are delivering, how the market is Presenting this, so that now we can actually build the actual ads themselves for the campaign. Uh-huh. And man, yeah.... how do you know that

you have enough resources there to start making the ads? Because, look.... competitors, like, you can find one ad from a competitor, you can find 100. Uh-huh. Then possible angles here of mechanisms, like, ways for you to start your ad, tell that story there of your ad, damn, infinite. Archetypes, okay, I have a limited number. It's easier. Or at least I can't have that many of them for a person who wants to buy weight loss. Even by the very definition of the thing, it's a niche, so this is a specific thing, so it Becomes much easier.

Formats, there's a ton. You yourself have a product there with 50 formats. So how do we do it to know like, "man, I already have a nice knowledge base here, a solid foundation to start producing these ads right away"? Man, good question. I don't know if there's a fixed answer for that, I think it goes a bit by everyone's feeling, you know, of what they think is necessary to have, to start this. But for me, basically like this: I need to have all the product information, I need to have a more general audience research about

it, and understand a bit about the expert. In this case, if you're creating the product itself, you have your expert positioning mapped out. Having this ready, like the complete briefing, understanding the funnel we're going to run, whether it's a high ticket or a VSL. Having this next piece ready, like the VSL, the high ticket, and the page ready, for example. Having the audience research done the right way there, you don't need to have the archetypes yet, but having the general concept mapped out more or less of who we're selling to... And me understanding the expert,

I can already make the first ads. So it's kind of like the main database of the project, right? Which is the product, the teacher, the mentor, in this case it could be the avatar, right, the people who run it without an expert, and the audience research. Uh-huh. And those things we talked about, like, the mechanism angle, archetype, format, do they go into the audience research? The mechanism angle appears there. The archetypes we're going to discover When it's time to make the ads, and we'll validate them... I mean, through traffic, right? Testing them there. And the

format too, because like it or not, they are two different things. For example, when I'm creating a product, I'm going to focus more on understanding the guy's VSL, understanding his deliverables, how he brings the mechanism, how he brings the solution, etc. And when we move on to the ads, I kind of redo that research because, like it or not, the time between creating a product and starting to make the ads is about a week's difference, depending on the depth of it, right? So things might have changed a bit. So I redo that ad research before

writing mine to understand what's working there, to see if I can already map out the archetypes and all that. But usually when you're immersed in the project, it becomes very clear what the persona Archetypes are and which formats are working best because you're seeing it day in and day out, right? and there's even a strategy we can talk about later, which is the spy profile that I use, which also became very popular. Tell me about it, what is that? Man, so... Spy profile? Yeah. Nice. Basically, you create an Instagram account and behave exactly like your

target audience. Got it? You start following all the pages they follow, you start liking the posts they would like, you start interacting with the ads they would interact with, which are your competitors' ads, clicking, saving, liking, etc. And it will reach a point where your algorithm will be 100% trained to deliver exactly what your audience is consuming. Then it becomes very clear what the main Formats are, what the main hooks are, arguments, and so on. Uh-huh. Do you have to buy a new phone or can you do it on your own? I mean, you just

create and.. Just create a Gmail and open a new account. Gmail, create the account, and go for it, start searching the keywords there. Interesting. That's what I do. In my case, I have my personal Instagram on my phone, and on my computer, I keep this spy profile just to, just to keep mapping what people are seeing. How cool, man. Like, clicking on my ads. Yeah. And man, that's interesting. So dude, once we have... by the way, out of these methods, like research methods, this spy profile thing you mentioned, I thought it was the most interesting

Thing, man. Do you think this is actually the most interesting thing, or do you think there are other, more interesting things to find this information? Man, I think it's what's going to bring you the most optimization over time, you know? For example, you'll have the foundation of your research, you'll have— like I told you before, audience research is a living organism, so you'll always be adding things, taking out things you tested that didn't work, tweaking it. And this feed really comes in to help you do that. So, for example, some controversy pops up. I want

to see how people in my niche are using that controversy to attract— to generate content. I go there, scroll through three reels, and see how people are doing it. Then I like it, scroll through two more, and it shows up again, you know? So you use it to, Stay on top of the market, if that's the right word? To see how people are utilizing it. Yeah, I use the term "measuring the market's pulse," like we have our hand right here, like: thump...thump...thump. you know? And it's very important, man. Damn, if there's a new format, like,

something trending, it's important for you to know. Exactly. So you can do one of two things: either do the exact same thing but better, or do something diametrically opposite, but not worse. Uh-huh. Worse would be a bad idea, you know? Generally, one of these approaches— at least back in my day, when I did it, one Of these two approaches tended to do very well: either do something, I mean, something better in that same direction or do something completely opposite, 180 degrees opposite. That was pretty cool. A cool example that happened recently, I don't know if

you saw it, but that Kumar guy went viral, he's the guy from... What went viral? A guy named Kumar. His name is Kumar. oh...the guy's name is top-tier. He's like a retired guy from abroad who created an Instagram profile to become a finance influencer. He released a video, But is he rich? He's very rich. But does he show his face? He shows his face. Then he released an ultra-highly produced video, you know what I mean? Like, a super well-made video where he goes out there and says: "Look, this is a message To all finance influencers.

I am Kumar. I am here to take all your jobs away." It's highly produced, you know? With an aesthetic that is uniquely his. And man, that week it blew up, which was last week, everybody started making identical videos, you know? Exactly the same, with the same editing, they even copied the guy's background. Exactly the same. So, for example, I knew this was something a lot of digital marketing profiles abroad were copying too. I was like, "Damn." Then I posted on my stories because I would scroll and only see this thing on my algorithm. I said,

"This sucks." Then I posted on my stories, and people replied: "Man, I can't stand it anymore either, I can't stand it anymore." I said, "Hmm, I'm going to launch a hook like this." Then I went ahead and made a hook just like his. And it did well. But if I didn't have this profile, I wouldn't have seen it. Understand? Interesting, man, yeah, so what you said about taking a trending organic format and turning it into an ad, that actually works incredibly well out there. It works great. Actually, it's one of the things that works best.

Like, but even with... I mean, because look, there are things where it makes sense to do that, and things where it doesn't. Like generic news: "Oh, Bolsonaro did this or that." Stuff like that makes no sense, right? But some things do make sense. Or things that aren't supposed to make sense, but end up working. Yes. Yeah, and there are memes, man... I can't think of one right now, but every now and then, like, the meme about Virginia and Vinicius Júnior, right, something like that, people manage to adapt. You know when everyone in digital marketing, especially

in the product launch market, starts posting the same sticker? You can make an ad out of that too, you know? Is that what you mean or not? I see it in two ways, man. There are two types of topics you can use. The stuff that went viral across the entire country. For example, the example you gave about Vinicius Junior and Virginia breaking up. Everyone with internet access found out that happened. Like, my dad came to talk to me about it, you know? It was at that level. I thought, "Man, if I drop this into an

ad, people will relate." The other thing is niche topics. I don't know if you saw it or not, but like, two weeks ago, there was that whole Thing with Natalia Beauty. Basically, she was super rude to a woman who was sitting right there at her lecture. Yeah, I saw she went to a lecture, and... like, arrived late, or something like that, right? Man, basically, the woman asked her what her edge was, what made her mentorship different, why she should join. And she said, "Oh, if you're asking that, I don't want you in my mentorship, you're

too arrogant," stuff like that, you know? She was super rude to the woman. And that went totally viral, a lot of people doing breakdowns, reacts, but it went viral within the digital niche. Outside of that, people don't know her. Understand? So that's something I looked at— That's the eyebrow lady, right? Yeah. So, I look at something like that and say, "Man, I'm going to turn this Into an ad," you know? Because I know it will work since it will grab the attention of the audience in my niche, for example. Now, let's say there was that

controversy about women taking Mounjaro, and then Mounjaro blocked the effect of their birth control, and they got pregnant. That was a thing. No way, is that real? Holy shit, man. Real talk. That sucks. For someone selling weight loss who goes against Mounjaro, that's a killer topic to use, you know? A killer topic to use to your advantage. So it's about using— I always use these topics to either expose a market pain point, you know? Or expose a problem, like, "Oh, people are taking Mounjaro in this case, and sure, you'll lose weight." "But look, if you

didn't want to have a kid, now you're having one," you know? You expose a competitor's problem, and then you pitch your product. But how would you execute that part? Can you give me an example? well, man... I don't know if it's asking too much, like to come up with an example right now on the spot like this. I have to think of a good example. For example, because the... It can be bad too, okay? Okay. Let me tell you what I did with the Natalia Beauty thing, for example. Yeah. I put her clip on top

where she goes: "Ah, look, I don't want you in the mentorship, you're too arrogant." Saying— it wasn't exactly that phrase, but Was that in a video? In a video. Yeah. Of her speaking? Yeah Holy shit! Damn, she actually said that on camera? She did. Damn, that's wild... And then I said: "Do you agree with this?" Then I said: "Look, whether she's right or wrong, I don't know. What I do know is that what you're seeing here is a react format, which is where you take a trending video in your niche to grab the right audience's

attention and pitch your product." So, like, I kind of pitched my product by tapping into something that was completely trending. It didn't necessarily connect, you know? But it worked to attract the right audience's attention. right? Yeah, interesting. Man, I always— like, I have so much doubt about that, you know? Because, in my mind, I mean, I always thought that... like, if we used a hot market topic that, like, that everyone is talking about out there, we'd just be one of many, right? I mean, the whole country is talking about Virginia and Vinicius Junior, right? who

thank God, guys, finally scored a goal. Damn, it was about time. but the whole country is talking about it. So, if I talk about that, I'll just be one of many. But at the same time, everyone talks about it because it grabs attention, right? Yeah, it grabs attention. And so I always had this dilemma: "Okay, so should I do the exact same thing or should I do something completely different?" But you're telling me right here that doing the same thing actually works great, right? Yeah, it works, but here's the thing, it has an expiration date.

So it's an ad, for instance, if you put that in an ad, it's an ad that will sell well for two weeks. After that, it's dead, you know? Yeah, but it's interesting because in theory, there's always something happening. So you'll always have a little angle right there to guarantee another two weeks, and when those two weeks are over, there will be others. Pretty much. Like, you can't rely on this type of communication. But it's good to use. For instance, do you remember, like, two months ago when there was that boom of those little fruit soap

operas? Yeah. so.. The Moranguete one. And the Abacatudo. Exactly. Yeah, I made an ad in that format. Oh, really? With Moranguete pissed off because Abacatudo had a negative ROI. And then, what about the other one? How did it go? The banana? Yeah, Bananildo over there. Bananeco. Yeah, like Moranguete had gone to date him because he was using organic formats in his ads. I get it. And, man, that ad sold incredibly well for two weeks, but then it died, you know? Uh-huh. And man, that Natalia Beauty thing, like putting her react clip, I consider that, and

when I think about a good ad, I always think about, something like..uh..., I mean, a creative that truly has a solid line, a clear beginning, middle, and end, a very logical path right there between those three stages, right? And.. and there are ways for it to be more, like, for it not to deviate much from the core topic, right, or for it to deviate a whole lot from the core topic, you see? And I know this is a bit confusing, okay? And maybe it's even confusing to you, man. So let me explain a bit more

right here just to get your own take on it. So, if I'm researching here, right? Possible mechanism angles, like you said. And one of them, for example, is discovery. And I could say: "Man, look, a really bad ad here, okay? It wouldn't even be good, but whatever, you know what I mean? Like, ah, it went something like: 'Guys, did you know that we discovered right here in 2026, look at this, brand new ad formats for you to manage to scale your creatives even more? So swipe up here and all that.'" So I kind of state

the discovery— which is About my topic, my mechanism, which is about formats, and I already do a CTA about formats. So everything stays on that topic of formats. I call this type of ad something more direct, I only talk about that specific theme. Right. This one of yours with Natalia Beauty, you see that you can basically plug whatever you want in there. You can plug a reel from Virginia, Natalia Beauty, Pedrinho, Neymar, whoever, a bunch of different people, and it all just fits perfectly. Because you're saying: "See this? Do you agree with this? I don't

know, but here's this other thing." That ad right there, I consider it more indirect. Yes. It starts with something very top-of-funnel, you know? I mean, anyone could watch that, right? In this case, since it's Natalia Beauty, it's more for the digital marketing Market, right? I don't know if she's that famous outside of it. But anyway, it's more open than the previous one I mentioned. And we could still plug different digital marketing people there, right? And then we transition to the format topic and do the CTA. So I always see that I used to have an

opinion. Nowadays I don't have any opinion at all because I'm not running ads, so who am I to talk, right guys? The only thing I can do here is learn and generate some content for you at home, so you can grab one, two, maybe three tips if the podcast is good, and apply them. But given this distinction that there are more direct ads, which start with the core topic, mention the core topic, and end with the core topic, versus those ads that are more—I mean, I'm going to use this word even though I know it's

not quite right, but I'll use it anyway— more clickbait. Uh-huh. How much do you see these clickbait ads performing well, sometimes even better than the others or worse? What do you actually see working out there? Because this clickbait one, which isn't really clickbait, but I'll call it that, this ad format you mentioned with the react clip, man, we can do the beginning of it in infinite ways. So to me, I see that as a huge advantage out there. Because the direct angle ad I mentioned has very few ways to execute it. This one you mentioned,

you can use a reel from absolute nowhere, you know? As long as you can hook the person's attention. So, what do you see? If I had to guess, I'd say this direct ad is harder to make but works better. This clickbait ad is easier to make, but works less, though it can win on volume. Yes. Here's what I see, okay? This ad where we grab a random topic and then link it to the product depends heavily on the topic, man. For example, for that product I told you about, the archetypes one, we had an ad

that talked about Virginia changing her hair color. And that ad sold for months. Damn. Because Virginia changed her hair every single month, you know? So it kind of kept itself relevant. And also because, sometimes a person doesn't follow Virginia, but they know who she is. So they don't know if she actually changed her hair or not, right? And then the narrative was like: "Girl, did you see that Virginia changed her hair color?" "Yeah, right? She dyed it blonde now, she's projecting a different image." Then she goes: "Yeah, now she's using the archetype of such-and-such, whatever."

Then it linked to the rest of the offer, and so on. Pretty much that. It was an ad that lasted a long time. But, for example, this Natalia Beauty one, I launched it last week. It sold last week, but yesterday and the day before, it wasn't doing so well anymore. The Abacatudo one, same thing. It ran for two weeks, two and a half weeks, and then it kind of died. But it gives a really good spike at the beginning. So, it's the kind of ad that's good to always be making, but they will saturate faster.

Yeah. Now, like you said, more direct ads that bring up the main topic, and make the direct link to the product tend to have a lower volume of sales, in my experience, right? They tend to have a lower volume of sales, but they tend to last much longer. So, for example, my— I don't know if it's my top ad, but it's one of the ones that Sells the most, and for my clients too, this is the ad model that sells the most— it's a social proof style ad, directly linked to the product, in a Q&A

box format. For example, a person sent a question in your box, in my case: "I tested your formats, I tested format X and Y. I'm making 10k a day here." Then I say: "So while you're sitting there wondering if this is for you," but then they are thinking: "Okay, what does that mean, that the person tested the format?" Then I explain the mechanism of the product, how it works, and I do the pitch. It's an ad that makes, let's say, five or six sales a day, but it's been running for, like, four months, making that

same sales volume. Uh-huh. Meanwhile, the Abacatudo one made, let's say, something like 15 or 20 sales a day but lasted two weeks, see? So there's that variation when we talk about this Kind of thing. But another thing that works incredibly well, which I think is the perfect balance in all of this, is taking a topic that isn't necessarily trending right this second, but it's more like a general topic or a specific niche topic, you know what I mean? For example, talking about Meta Andromeda. Man, that's going to last the entire year of 2026. It launched

at the end of 2025, and nobody really understands what it is yet. So I have a lot of hooks talking about it. Those are the ads that sell well because I don't necessarily talk about formats right away. The format comes as a solution to Meta Andromeda, to the problem that Meta Andromeda created, which is the guy not being able to make enough variations, the little bugs and all that. So I bring up a topic that is trending, but over a much longer period. It's Pretty much like what I was watching on Matheus Lourenço's podcast, which

is more about calling out the actual core belief of the niche. Uh-huh. Like, a belief in the niche is that Meta Andromeda messed up the ad manager, you know? So I use that belief, which is a general thing for anyone who has the problem I solve, to introduce my product. Because I can bring up the Meta Andromeda problem to sell a specific campaign structure, to sell a specific copy style, to sell a specific VSL style, a specific funnel. Uh-huh. I'm using Meta Andromeda to sell ad formats. So it's something that everyone out there in the

niche can absolutely use because it's a topic that's actively being talked about right now, it's trending, but it's definitely not a temporary thing. And those are the ads that last the longest and sell well in my experience, not just in my niche, but in general too. Yeah. The Mounjaro example, for instance, man, that's something that's been trending for, like, two years. See? Yes, I completely understand, bro. Man, this Andromeda thing you mentioned really hooks the market's attention, right? So it makes total sense, dude. I get it, very good. And guys, taking advantage of this topic,

Guilherme released an exclusive lesson showing some wildcard ad formats that work in pretty much any niche and help make your ad look a lot more organic. This lesson is already available to everyone in the VTurb community. So if you're already a client, just go over to the Academy, click on exclusive Materials, and then you can watch Guilherme's lesson right there. But if you're not a client yet, then man, click on the first link here in the description, unlock your access to this material so you can learn even more from Gui, alright? And now, back to

the episode. Yeah, man, but regardless of that, right? Once we have our spy profile completely set up, we can then easily look at all the offers that are out there in the market. And dude, with Swipe Offers, we get the specific offers from the niche right there on the spot. And in this case, we'll receive the niche offers, and although maybe not all of them will be in there, but there will be something for us to use. With that, we'll also have the angles, I mean, or rather, with the research we did along with it,

we'll have ad angles, ways to tell stories through The ad... like, how we're going to start our ad— I mean, mechanism angles, sorry. It's the mechanism, okay guys? I totally misread my own notes here. And we'll also have potential buyers, which are the archetypes. So, like, I'm selling to an older woman who got pregnant and wants to lose weight, or a younger person who just wants to lose weight to wear a bikini at the beach, you know? And also possible formats for us to use, which come either from the spy profile, or just from what

you're seeing in organic content. Man, once I have all these resources here, what do I do next? Awesome. Then it gets a lot easier, right? Because you already have everything pretty much mapped out, it's more like a puzzle game where you just Link the pieces together. And that's something that, for example, if you go analyze mechanism angles, persona archetypes, and formats, it's pretty much— like, I mentioned before that a lot of my ad methodology changed after Kobata's podcast. And over there, he talks precisely about that strategy of theirs, of doing the intersections. So, for example

How so? Where you separate three personas, three curiosity hooks, three— like, how do you say it? Three benefits and three pain points. And then you start combining them in the ads. It's pretty much doing that. But, for example, it depends, it will depend heavily on the budget you have to start with, how many ads you're going to launch and all that. I always recommend Starting with at least five to 10 ads to test a product so you can get those initial metrics. We'll be looking primarily to validate the product, but also to find those elements

within the ads that we can replicate later. And when it comes to the actual creation of these ads, it flows very naturally for me, right? Like, once I have this data in hand, I'm just going to make the ads right here. I'll pretty much choose my methodology, and here it comes— like, it's going to be pretty similar to what comes later when making variations. To make an ad, I need to know three things: what the angle will be, what the format will be, and what the structure will be. Within the structure, for example, you can

test a standard AIDA, right, which is the foundational structure for everything. You can test a structure that you noticed was the benchmark in the ads you analyzed in the market. You can test a structure you already validated in other evergreen funnels but want to test right there as well. So, like, one that starts out with curiosity, brings proof, an authority element, makes a comparison, then states the current situation premise, and finally reveals the product. You kind of do that, you know? You choose a few to put out there. When you say structure, then, you mean,

like the order of the arguments that will be in there, right? Exactly. The order of the arguments. But man.. I see. But how do you know, for example, I mean, how long the ad is going to be? Because it could be a 30-second video or a 30-minute video, you know? Yeah, that's the thing. We started in the wrong order because the structure is Pretty much the last thing I decide. Uh-huh. The main thing, the first thing we're going to decide there is the angle, and within the angle, man, that's pretty much where the big idea

of the ad comes in too, which mechanism angle we're going to test. And basically, that's it. The big idea will kind of be born from there. So, I want to prove— let's use an example, let me think of an example here. For which niche? I think I'll use my own products as an example, it'll be faster. It's fresh in your mind, right? yeah, like that. Cool. Yeah, I want to prove to this guy... like, that the Andromeda update benefits— actually, not benefits, how do you say it? Favors? Favors formats that are organic. So I'm going

to prove this by explaining how The algorithm works. So that will be my big idea for the ad, that will be my mechanism angle right there. Format, okay. How can I explain this? Can I explain it just talking to the guy? Yes. Can I explain it by answering a Q&A box? Yes. But then it comes down to feeling, man. What's the most effective way for me to explain this to the guy? I could, for example, make a.. a mind map and explain it to him. It's more effective than me just talking while answering a Q&A

box, it'll be easier for him to understand. But a mind map— I see that it's not a format my audience uses that much, they don't consume it as much. And, man, there's that format, I don't know if you've seen it, that we call the "mini-lecture," which is basically where the guy sets up a slideshow and talks, Explaining the thing. Like, puts it on the TV and.. Mini-lecture. Yeah. You know? And I know the audience is consuming that, so I'll use that format. And then, the ad is pretty much born in my head, you know? Uh-huh.

And that's where we'll find the structure, okay? If I want to do an explanation of more technical content, deliver some valuable content there to the guy before presenting the product, which structure makes the most sense? Then you'll map out the ones you have and find the one that fits best. Today, for me, it's much more about feeling than actually having everything listed out and explaining it, but for the people watching, it's pretty much that process. So first, you'll define the big idea of the ad. And the mechanism angle will usually be included right in there.

Then you'll find the format to see how you can convey that big idea in the best way possible. And then at the end, the structure will naturally be born for you to think: "Man, how can I deliver this information within this format in the most effective way possible?" Because I think it always comes back to that, right? How can I get the message I want across in the shortest way possible so the guy can understand it best? Yes, without a doubt. It's essential for the ad. Yeah, the ideal scenario is to be as short as

possible without sacrificing information. Exactly. and man that Andromeda idea you had, I thought it was a great idea, that whole angle, you know? Because the market is actually thinking about that, right? Yeah, and people talk a lot like: "Okay, but what the hell is this?", you know? So Bringing that into the ad worked out great. Yeah dude, I imagine it did well. And how was the process for you to come up with that idea in the first place? Do you remember? Man, it was an idea— I mean, this specific idea came from my copywriter. he

basically saw— like, I don't know if you know this guy Mark, who is from abroad and he records videos shirtless, talking about traffic, you know? Mark what? Mark Builds Brands, that's his handle. Mark Builds Brands. He records shirtless? Is he ripped? He is. Holy shit. He records, like, he's in a dark room, just a huge ring light on his face, and a Miro board open, and he's explaining everything. Really crazy. Then he, like, he saw a video of this guy talking about the Facebook algorithm, and he sent it to me: "Hey dude, check this out,

I thought it was cool." I said: "Man, interesting." Then I watched the video and thought: "Wow, I've Never seen anyone explain it this way, I'm going to turn it into an ad." And since it's something I know— like, for example, for me, it's easier to know what my audience wants because I used to be my audience, right? And I kind of still am the audience, I'm the guy who wants to sell more through ads, who wants to improve the ad strategy, who wants to scale more. So I already kind of know what the guy is

looking for there. But anyway, I identified that and said: "Okay, I'm going to turn this into an ad." Then I stopped and analyzed: "Okay, which format will match this best?" And then the ad was pretty much born right there. Funny, bro But usually, these ideas, that's what I find funny, because, especially for the average info-product owner out there who doesn't need to make, like, 100 ads a Day, 100 ads a week like the guys in Nutra, for example, or whatever. Man, you don't need to force yourself to make a shit ton of creatives right there,

like a whole bunch of stuff, right, you don't need to have a process that super clear-cut. You just need to understand what actually needs to be inside your creative and be able to tell a good idea apart from a bad idea. Because, for example, the absolute best creatives I've ever made didn't come from this whole process we're doing right here. The creatives born from this process are the ones that sell just a little bit, they'll sell more consistently, but that creative that truly stands out in the market usually comes from this, it comes from a

video I saw on Reels and modeled into a hook for my creative. A video I saw on YouTube that someone sent over recommending, and I thought the concept was cool, so I turned it into a creative right there. The idea of what exactly? The format, the content... of everything? The big idea, right? The big idea of the creative itself. Sometimes the format too, but usually it's the big idea overall. Uh-huh. Yeah man, that big idea with Andromeda is actually really strong. And that's exactly what I wanted to understand, you know? How we can replicate that

right here to make those really high-performing creatives out there. But what you did was basically stay aware of what's happening in the market. In your case, you just got lucky that your copywriter sent you that video clip. So, the angle, right, the Andromeda angle is what I've been using since my very First creative, because that's what's been around since mid-last year, everyone is talking about it out there. So I always use the argument that, man, after Andromeda, native creatives are being heavily favored. It's something I've always used, but I never used it as the main

angle of an ad, for instance, which is what we just did now and worked out super well. So it's kind of, I don't know how to explain it, but maybe you'll have a ruler with several mini-topics you address in your daily routine, in your content, in the videos you record. Sometimes you can just take that and use it, it's like making a podcast clip, you know? Like, today your podcast right here will run for maybe three hours. But I talked about the spy profile right there, you know? Which was something really cool. I could just

take that and make a highlighted piece of content out Of it, see? That kind of stuff works really well when we talk about big ideas for creatives. Uh-huh. And then it's something where you can basically, spy on your own content, you get it? so you kind of take, for example, let's say: you're looking over right at the VSL graph over on VTurb, right, and you see that there was a certain moment where standard VSL's would usually drop, but yours doesn't drop at all. What are you saying right there? Did you bring up some new term

that hasn't been said in the market yet, that no one has ever heard before? Did you present your mechanism? Fuck, bring up the Paris Flower, whatever, just do that kind of internal spying, you know? We love doing that Too. That works really well as well. Uh-huh. well, dude, let me ask you a question, right? I get that the... like, from what you're telling me, the most interesting way for you to build creatives is a way that feels, like, very organic, right, at least for you, based on what you're saying. And then you receive inputs from

the outside world, and your brain processes those inputs and turns them into outputs, which are the creatives. And these inputs, like, you gave the example of this big idea from Mark Build Brands, right. That guy will never know he was mentioned on the VTurb podcast, or maybe he will, I don't know. Like crazy things happen all the time. Who knows. People are translating everything now. Right. But I'm still in doubt about the creative structure part, because you said we can test a whole bunch of stuff right there. Uh-huh. AIDA, storytelling, whatever, and all that. And

once we have that angle, right, like the Andromeda one, for example, where basically, from what I understood, right, we're going to tell the guy: "Look, after Andromeda, all regular ads are going to start failing badly, you know? I mean, the Ads Manager got all messed up, and the creatives that are performing well right now are the ones with an organic format.'' yeah. You want an organic format? So... Swipe up. In short, that's it. We put out this claim, this belief right there. Uh-huh. We show this market belief that leads the person right to the conclusion

that they really want to buy our product, right, but we can easily create a ton of structures to do that, you know? Right. And you told me that this is super organic for you, you even used the word feeling. Yeah, But still, there's a standard structure. right? Can we talk about what you were going to say after that? Tell me more about this whole structure thing, man. Tell me... like, just a few structures you've made so I can understand a bit more about your feeling and also eventual standard structures or patterns, right guys? Whatever, I

don't know how to speak proper Portuguese here. just so I can get a better handle On that part. Yeah, okay. I'll break down what I consider essential in a creative structure, right? And then those can be the core principles the creative needs to have, in my view, to actually work out. To fit within the scope of what I know works out there. Which is what? I split the creative into three parts. Standard: first the hook... then the body... and finally the call to action. So, really, each part here has a specific job inside the ad.

In my perspective, the way I do it, the hook's job is to attract the right people, or better yet, grab people's attention right into your funnel and segment them at the exact same time, you know? So it has to be eye-catching, but it has to catch the attention of the right audience. So it's like you said yourself, there's no point in putting Virginia There if my follower doesn't consume Virginia, but follows, let's say, Raiam Santos instead, you get it? Uh-huh. It's useless to put Virginia in that case. And to grab attention, well, the options are

completely endless, right? You could be upside down, shirtless, you could say— Upside down. I've seen people add like, do the creative block upside down ...and then spin it. But anyway, there are, like other things. You can, add a striking color, you can add a... glasses, you know, or you can draw attention through what you're saying, right? Like you gave the example of Kobata there: "a fat woman has to be attractive". Damn, even someone who isn't in that niche is going to pay attention, right? It's going to grab everyone's attention. It's a very top-of-funnel thing. Exactly.

And how do I split it, man? The hook is visual and narrative. The visual hook has this main function of grabbing attention through what the person is physically seeing. That's why I say, for example, have you ever seen an ad from Pablo Marçal? Man, I've seen his content. But Ads... How are his ads? He's sitting at his office desk wearing a suit or a dress shirt, whatever, and there's a guy filming him. Nowadays his ads are better, but the ones that made him blow up were those, right? like pretty much that. And what do most

people do when they think about making a creative? That exact thing. "I'm in my office, wearing my work clothes, I'm going to turn on the camera and pitch my copy." and man, that's what I call the Big Guru format, you know? Which is the guy in a fancy suit, super neat, using a professional camera. The Big Guru format. That's classic, man. It's the enemy, right? And yet, most people out there still stick to that format. Why? Because they look at, let's say, Ladeira, Ícaro doing that type of format, Sobral doing that type of format, and

they think: "oh, if these guys are top players and do it this way, why should I do it any differently?" But they don't factor in that their face is what grabs attention, because they're already public figures. Yeah, they are the visual hook itself. Exactly. Yeah, they are the visual hook themselves. Then you take, let's say, record a creative with Gab in that exact same format. It's going to perform terribly, right Gab? Unless If it were a CS creative, right? Then like 1.6? CS 1.6? Oh, Rainbow Six, yeah, R6 guys! He's annoying like that. Then you'd

make the sale, right? Make the sale? oh Yeah, that guy is a PRO, okay? That's why he's so pale, he doesn't go out in the sun. It's just CS and R6. But keep going. Then man, if you put him right there in this little format here on... here it would still draw attention because it's the VTurb podcast, right? But put him in some random spot wearing a suit, man, the person looks at it and says: "Big guru, skipping this." And then— You've already lost the viewer right away. Already lost them. The person won't watch your

creative at all. Yeah man, that's something I think people need to realize a lot, dude, which is like, I mean, looking at the offer and knowing why it actually works, You see? Because if you don't do that, sometimes you might think what works is one thing, when in reality it's something else entirely. The amount of people out there modeling big players thinking it's going to work out, when it's going to go completely wrong, man, it's no joke. and people don't realize that what works for a huge guy.. in fact, what the big guy did to

become huge isn't what he's doing right now, right? He probably did completely different things back then. Sometimes, I mean, sometimes the guy does thing X and gets result Y. For him to get 10Y results, he just does 10X, often it's like that, but many times it's not. We have to analyze, like use that thing inside our heads called the brain, right? And actually think. 100%. Man, there's no way you can just copy a famous guy's format because he is the format himself, you get it? Another example of that is Cariani. Dude, Cariani, damn, talk about

a famous guy, man. People put his face everywhere and sell every single kind of thing. He sells supplements, low-ticket, and so on. He was selling side hustle offers the other day, man. he still is, right? Yeah, like... what do you mean, man? Makes no sense. I was blown away by that. Well, shout out to Cariani's team. Cariani is my client. and those guys are great, their creatives... like, even though it's Cariani, their creatives are organic, they don't use the Big Guru format, right? Man, the team over there..I think it's Neto running things, right? If it's

Neto, shout out to him. He's over there operating everything, every now and then he sends me a message, and every now and then I talk about Tiago Filemon with him as well. So the team over there really knows their stuff, they're super strong. That's why I told you at the beginning of the podcast that a lot of these experts are moving to digital. A lot, a lot man. Well, not to digital, right? Because they're already in... I mean, to Direct Response. But anyway, we have the visual hook and the narrative hook. The visual hook, if

we mess up right there, man, actually, which one do you think is more important, the visual or the narrative one? Ah, they have different functions, man. They have different functions. The visual, like I was saying, its function is to grab attention. So, hey, you could Put on, let's say, a neon pink shirt. It fulfilled its function. It will grab attention. You could put Virginia's face, it will grab attention. You could put- Neon pink shirt. You can put Cariani's face, it will grab attention. And the narrative one has the function, like, what is narrative? It's what's

written, it's the headline there, right? If there is a headline, and what is being said. Do you also consider the headline a narrative? I consider narrative. I would consider visual like is the first person that person sees there. Yeah. That might be true, but I believe that the text, is the second thing a person sees, right, I mean, before they see the image that is appearing there, the person or whatever. But I include it within the narrative. And these two have the function of segmenting. So you'll grab attention because you'll be upside down or on

the edge of a Building recording the creative, but hey, you'll be grabbing the attention of anyone, like Mrs. Cleusa who raises parrots, who will see your creative, it has nothing to do with digital marketing, but she'll keep watching because you're wearing a neon pink shirt. Yes, without a doubt. Then the narrative hook and the headline come in to actually segment the audience, like, for example, that one from Natalia Beauty over there. Let's say I put Virginia in that creative. I have to explain why I put Virginia there, right? So, look, this here is the react

format, you get it? Then the person goes: "ah, okay..." but whoever doesn't know what that format is, is going to drop off and bail out, you know? yeah, uh-huh. and man, my creative at that angle there, like, this one is such a format, There's one that has, actually there are two that work well, one that is Brino reacting to the video, put it up there... what? April? Brino. What is that, dude? He is a streamer. Brino. yeah. About what? man... a react streamer, right? so, like.. He is a streamer, and his job is to react

to other videos? Yeah, something like that. Dude, isn't capitalism an amazing thing, right, folks? And the guy is a multimillionaire. Of course, man, when would we have ever imagined that our society would evolve so much to the point where this job actually exists? The guy's job is just to react to videos. But oddly enough, right guys, my job is to talk nonsense here on the VTurb podcast, man. And today, today it's your job as well. Although you already do that on Instagram, right? But that's not the VTurb podcast, is it? Yeah, on the VTurb Podcast

it's really just me. And today, you two are living the YouTube podcast. Look how cool. Did you know, Gab? just me and Gab, we are the ones living the YouTube podcast. The rest of the people, they just watch, the vast majority. True. But man, about this whole thing with the hook, let me ask you a few questions here, okay? We talked about that AIDA framework, right? For the folks at home, I probably should've explained what that actually is for anyone who doesn't know. But you probably know, right? like, how could you not know what AIDA

is? In principle, everyone knows. But for the very few people out there who do not know, it stands for attention, interest, desire, and action. It is actually the oldest formula for sales message structure, you see? And that A part, the attention, I consider to be that first frame of the creative, regardless of what it is, whether there will be a reaction there, because, like, in one second, the person will look, they will glance at it, and those pieces of information there are what have to stop the person. So that's why I consider all of that

a visual hook, which actually includes the photo right there, the headline up top, everything that's on screen. That's why for VTurb Reels, put a screenshot over there, Nick, of some VTurb Reel. It shows us talking and a little headline there, and that is what will stop the person, because the person will spend thirty seconds, thirty milliseconds, I don't know, maybe half a second there to look and be like: "oh, am I going to watch this or not". And that's what I consider A, attention Yes. And Interest, I consider that to be the narrative, like, what

the person is actually going to say. And any written element there, I also consider it somewhat interesting. So, kind of everything that's just visual, I think it's just attention. Everything written in the first frame, headlines up there, and so on, is attention and interest, but mostly attention. And everything that is said, I consider to be purely interest. But in practice, it still has to retain some of that attention, right? We end up merging the concepts right there. So each function of the creative, it, well, they have different functions, but they end up doing a bit

of the others. So the thing meant to grab attention, it grabs attention, that's the main thing, but it also generates a little bit of interest. The thing that wants to Generate interest, it generates a whole lot of interest, but it also maintains some attention and generates a little bit of desire too, which is the next part. So I have this exact view, you know? What do you think about that? Man, I agree. I believe everything sort of generates, like, it ends up generating other things as a side effect, right? Maybe the visual is what keeps

the attention on the hook, but the headline will certainly generate interest and sometimes even desire. A desire to understand the rest of it there... to actually have the product and so on. No doubt. If you say something that directs, that already channels the person's desire, something regarding the benefit, the mechanism, without a doubt. I believe that everything sort of impacts things, not necessarily the action right at the beginning, you know? But desire can actually be generated in the hook Too, just not as the main focus. I think attention is the primary goal, but interest as

well, both in the narrative and the headline, it definitely serves that purpose too. Uh-huh. Man, before we move on to the part after the content, okay? Since we're talking about creative structure here, you said you divide it into hook, content, and call to action. And then here in the hook, you said there's the visual hook and the narrative hook, right? So then we gave a few examples and all that. I don't know if you remember this, man, but even recently there was this guy who, like that guy getting hit in the face with a brick,

right? You know what I mean? Yes. so put that meme up on screen, Thiagão, if you can find it—the one with the guy getting hit in the face with a brick. Or there's that baseball one, where they hit it with the bat and the ball goes straight into the camera. Put that baseball on the screen for everyone Thiagão, go ahead, you can throw it up there. So, that stops the person, you know? Like the guy taking a brick to the face and all that. and there was a lot of clickbait too, even from politicians saying:

"This right here is my, I don't know, you see, this is my shoulder, this is my..." Then he puts his hand right down there, between his legs, and then cuts the scene and goes: "This right here is my whatever plan," right, instead of saying the P-word, you know? So man, have you ever actually tried this kind of thing out, like those memes over there? like super clickbait. As for grabbing attention, this definitely does the job! And look, it might grab so much attention that you stop the whole country, but then you'll bring in a lot

of unqualified people, and you'll really have to do a hell of a job to convert that attention into interest. I don't know if, like, since it's so hard to do that, maybe the algorithm ends up penalizing the creative because, well, nobody is watching the whole thing, but damn, we are definitely doing something very much clickbait. Or if that is actually a good thing, because, that whole thing of getting a brick smashed on someone's face, hitting them with a baseball bat, dude, that is a hell of a, like a hell of a weapon, a hell of

a mechanism to grab people's attention, you see? I mean, it works really well. So what is your, your take on that? Man, I've already tested a few ways and I believe it can be used, but it's cool that it's, not necessarily directly, but somehow linked to a way of segmenting the audience, you know? So you can segment using the face that's there and such, but basically let me explain: there is one where I used that, which worked really well, which is basically what? There is a little video of Ed Sheeran and Will Smith playing like

a flute, you know? with AI? No, it's real in real life? It's their moment to play a flute, at some event, I don't know what the heck it is. Damn. And then there are those videos of watches, so like, you pause the video and then zoom right in on the watch and show the watch's price, you know? And then it shows Will Smith's, then the music he was playing comes back on, and it shows Ed Sheeran's watch or whatever, how many millions of dollars it is. So, here's the thing: I saw another guy doing it,

so I just went ahead and did the exact same thing. Like, it cuts to my video holding my product, which in this case is the open formats library right there, and at every single moment the watch appears, it hits right on the beat of the music, like in a specific little frame where the bass drops and all that. Then on the third beat, it first shows Will Smith's watch, then Ed Sheeran's, and on the third hit, it shows me displaying the product. And the product is right there, like, "50 scalable formats for $47.90." Just like

it was there, a Richard whatever watch, I don't know. Richard Mille. Yeah, so many millions of dollars. And like, it had absolutely nothing to do with me showing the product and all that, but damn, the hook rate was insane, people watched it all the way through, and it sold really well. But of course, it fatigued fast too, because people end up repeating it a lot over there, you know? They start figuring out that it's a meme, you know? Uh-huh. But it was something that worked, right, because I think that's also a very cool thing for

us to talk about, like, that the formats and elements you pull in to connect with your target audience, don't necessarily have to come from the digital space or from your specific niche, you see? For example, I know that the guy who's out there scaling, running his product, running an operation, this guy wants money. And a guy who wants money might be interested in watches. It's something that has been trending a lot lately, with Alfredo Soares posting a ton about it, and guys like Thales Gomes bringing up so much content on it, people talking a lot

about Rolexes and stuff. Man, I looked at that and said, "Okay, I Liked that watch hook, so how do I evaluate if it's worth testing? What's in here that can connect with my audience?" Man, everybody knows Will Smith, boss. Everybody knows Ed Sheeran. I don't know if everybody knows Ed Sheeran's face, but man... Ah, they must know. Yeah, they must know. Come on, the guy is super famous. yeah. Gab, do you know what his face looks like? Of course you do. You know it too, right? Obviously. So, yeah, watches are also a topic people will

enjoy. You can test it, it's definitely worth testing. Now, this helmet one, for example, I don't see much logic in it, you know? Yeah. Because it's going to attract a completely irrelevant audience. Like, People who will just stick around to see if the guy cracked his head open, if he's alive, or whatever they're waiting to see next. It just doesn't make sense. and another thing, .like, that I saw and modeled... was basically... Man, how do I explain this? Is it that one with... the word game? Yeah. It's like, there's a... A word game? So, it's

like... oh, I almost called you Julia. damn. I almost called her Julia. Julia was the one you brought on Wednesday, right? Yeah, in the last episode. In the last episode, right. Just kidding, Luana, relax. Man, you gotta keep an eye on these small-town women. Yeah. Complicated stuff, those German girls. It's Complicated, right? But how does it work? Profanity. Yeah, rural German-Portuguese mixed with English and Irish, man. That's just wild. But anyway, how does that word search thing go? Man, basically, like, there's this meme, right, where a guy is out on the street, and he holds

up an image, and it's kind of like... Like a hangman game, right, where some letters are missing from the word. So he shows, let's say, a Black guy holding a plate of food in his hands, you know? Ah, got it. Have you seen it? So, like... And he makes it look like it's something racist. It goes P-R, then a blank space then T-O. Like the word is "prato", which means plate. But people think of "preto", like black. Anyway, I used that same mechanism in the creative. So I put the first one there, which was the

plate, then the second one was, what Was it? A nail, showing a guy hammering a nail, you know? And the third one was a random guy wearing a purple suit just to grab attention. And the word was like W, a blank space, and Y. First of all, it has nothing to do with the rest, so people immediately go, "Wait, why did this guy put that there?" it instantly throws them off. Yeah, and the word is WAY. Then I go, like, I try to guess and say, "WAY." But when I reveal it, it says, "The right

WAY to make scalable creatives is by using organic formats in your ads." And then it cuts straight from the hook into the creative. So, like, it's total clickbait that has nothing to do with the product, but for the guy who sticks around and hears what I say, it connects: "Damn, this guy is a genius," you know? Like, I'm proving what I'm talking about because, it's a 100% organic format that people are already used to seeing every day, and I'm bringing an assertion that connects directly with the target audience. Get it? And any niche can adapt

this, right? Uh-huh, I get it. Just to wrap up that point. Woah, hold on, we're not done yet. Let me ask a few more questions. Look at him trying to run away, guys. Hey Gab, how long have we been rolling? yeah, man. we still have time. Do you have an appointment? Hold your horses. Man, look, I want to ask you a question, and then I gotta hit the Restroom, okay dude? alright. Because guys, he made me drink an energy drink here. When do you ever see me drinking an energy drink on the VTurb Podcast? Put

it on the middle camera, Gab. Right here. Here's the can. Now switch to his camera, yeah. look guys. You bastard, you know? But anyway, we're drinking it. so.... look how crazy this is, right? We keep talking, and, like, my job here most of the time, right Gab, is really to try and extract just what's inside this guy's head, you know, like, What I think is interesting and all that. And I think I extracted something really interesting today. Something I've never been able to extract from anyone else on the VTurb Podcast before, and I want to

share it with you and get your take on it, okay? Which is the following: .I realized... and man, I've recorded a ton of podcasts about creatives here. There must be like 20 hours of creative podcasts easily. yeah, like easily, for sure. So, Thiagão, put those creative podcasts up on the screen, the ones I remember off the top of my head: Kobata, whom you mentioned, Amanda Khayat, the roundtable with the Brunas and Luisa, and Luisa herself too, Angélica, Anthony... I don't know, man. My bad to anyone I forgot, there are just way too many podcasts, you

see? But the vast majority of them, right? If not all of them, are nutraceutical podcasts. Or if it's not nutra, it's health info-products. So it's extremely focused on health, you know... And I realized, man, that your method of writing creatives is way more creative. So, look how silly that sounds, right? "His method of writing creatives is creative." But your method of making ads is much more eclectic, it has way more variation, way more... like, you really need to be, and the word truly is creative, coming up with fresh ideas, whereas the people who sell... like

nutra, health info-products, I mean, those guys almost always follow the exact same pattern, right? like most of the time. I even recorded a podcast recently with Hugo and Derlan, the guys from Black Shark. I highly recommend you guys watch it, okay? It'll pop up on the screen if you want to check it out. But it was the podcast with the highest engagement in VTurb history. it didn't have the highest views— views isn't the right word, it had the highest engagement. Like, it didn't hit the biggest number of views, it got like 10k or 14k views,

I don't know. But whoever watches it, watches it all the way to the end. It's extremely high-value content for that niche, which is the Global Nutra niche. And during the episode, he told me, "Man, one thing that always works is apple cider vinegar. We put apple cider vinegar in the creative, and it just works." They have cloud automations over there, but then again, we're talking about a 20-million-a-month Operation, it's just something surreal. They have automations where I don't know how many creatives those guys run, I don't know if it's hundreds or thousands, I think it's

thousands of active creatives, man. And constantly producing more. So it's a full-blown creative factory operating at full throttle. I started watching that episode. It's really good. But those creatives are very similar, almost identical. Whereas your creatives, my dude, I notice that they are completely different, you know? Yes. And look, man, I think that when I tried to make creatives for our, Like for our market, right, the digital marketing space, I used a lot of concepts I learned selling skin rejuvenation, selling in other niches, you know, like, I mean, like that are standard high-scaling niches, right,

but man, we are a niche too. You sell to our niche, you sell make-money-online to the digital marketing crowd, and that's what you sell. And I used to sell skin rejuvenation, right? So I think that for our market, for the digital marketing space, the way to sell isn't how those guys do it, or how the nutra crowd does it. I think it's this way you're talking about, right? Because this approach actually engages people in digital marketing—after all, they really love seeing these memes, these trends, you know... And man, you make sales, you see? So it's

something that actually works, you know? I think your launch skill set... like, what you told me back on our pre-call—because we always do a call before starting the podcast, right guys?—I think it's super real, man, that you actually managed to bridge the gap between content, organic growth, and launches with these more technical, sophisticated direct response structures that the DR crowd actually uses. So, like, hooks, structures, and so on. Yeah, man, I identified this right here. Based on what you said. And look, I feel like this method of yours, this way of being creative and finding

these opportunities, from what I gather, isn't something you have fully systematized into a process, and I don't even know if that's something you could processualize, you know? Except I don't even know if that's doable, you know? 'Cause it seems like something where you have to constantly stay tuned into the market, into trends, and figure out a way to connect that to your product. So the 80/20 seems to be constantly staying tuned into the market. So man, my question is: today, you run mentorships, you have your students, you sell to a lot of people. So man,

do you actually agree with what I was saying back there, about how direct response marketers really have a completely different creative pattern, I mean, compared to the stuff we use to sell to our own digital marketing audience? or do you think I'm just off base here? Man, I think there are definitely a few differences, but I feel like it's more of A middle ground between that ultra-processualized approach, like you said—the guys making 100 or 200 creatives a day, which is an extremely methodical, systematic process of taking what worked and replicating it endlessly. But at the

same time, it can't be that purely holistic thing either, like: "Oh, this idea just hit me while I was in the bathroom, so I had an idea for a creative, and I'll only come up with ideas when I'm randomly taking a stroll down the street, and so on." It's not that totally random thing, but it's not a rigid step-by-step checklist process either, like: "Oh, do this, then this, then this." I prefer to work more along the lines of... how can I put this? Principles of what I believe a creative must have. And then, man, based

on those core principles, you let your imagination flow and let things happen naturally, you know? Not being afraid to test an idea. If you think an idea is solid and It meets the principles that we established as essential, quote-unquote, then man, there's no reason not to test it, you know? Even if it seems weird, even if you haven't seen anyone running anything like it, even if... well. Of course, if nobody is doing it, sometimes it's a bad sign, but it's still worth testing—testing creatives is cheap, man. You throw it out there, test it, see if

anything comes of it, and that's it. Yeah, in Brazil it's easy. Overseas, we're talking about roughly a thousand bucks per creative out there, right? Maybe even more. But man, going back a bit to what I mentioned earlier, for example, for the average info-product creator running maybe 100k or 200k a month, putting out around 10 to 20 creatives a week, that guy doesn't need an extremely detailed methodology to execute. Man, he can come up with more random ideas, look at what He's currently doing, and try to execute it in a different way. Later on, we can

even talk about variations, which is something that really helps build that kind of volume. We're definitely talking about that, man. Take it easy. You think I'm letting you leave without talking variations? Are you crazy? No way. I gave you a mug, a bunch of stuff—I want content, man. sounds like a plan. Man, let me ask you a quick question about that. What are the core direct response principles, that the guys over in Nutra, in info-products, or even like in the black hat scene, you know, I mean, the really hardcore, raw direct response crowd out there...

which of these principles here do you think don't, actually don't translate to the info-product crowd, to the guy selling a course on, let's say, Programming, English, making brigadeiros, or whatever else... These people who benefit from these creatives more... I mean, more outside-the-box creatives that use current trends and stuff, you know? Is that a thing? like, are there principles that just don't translate or aren't as applicable? Man, I think everything is applicable and everything has its place. It was actually a learning curve I went through myself because, like I said, the launch school kind of teaches

you to build things based on whatever is working at the moment, but it doesn't really give proper names to the concepts. So until I started watching VTurb's podcasts, I had zero idea what a mechanism even was. Four years into copywriting, and I didn't know what a mechanism was because the launch school was all about explaining the expert's Method, get it? It wasn't the solution mechanism, it was the expert's method. Which, like it or not, is the solution mechanism—it's the vehicle to deliver the offer In a way, that's what it is. yeah. So it's basically... I

think the biggest benefit of reading the core books, understanding the principles, and so on, is being able to name what you're actually doing. And obviously, along that path, you discover a lot of new concepts you had never seen before. For example, another concept I had never heard of before watching VTurb's podcasts was Eugene Schwartz's awareness levels, for instance. Hmm. That was something I hadn't learned yet. Yeah, same goes for gradualization... like, gradualization is raising the level of awareness. I used to view it that way, but I didn't know there was a formal framework explaining how

to execute it Properly. There were so many things where I kept going: "Damn, I'm already doing this," but I just didn't know the technical term for it. Uh-huh. Which I think is a huge pain point for copywriters who learn mostly by doing hands-on work. Yes, uh-huh. Because nowadays, man, the guy who wants to become an ad copywriter goes out and buys Anthony's course. The guy who wants to be a VSL copywriter goes out and buys Filemon's course. They go into it much better trained right from the start. But in my view, the best copywriters, based

on the history I see from VTurb's team as well, those guys learned by reading classic old copy, analyzing live VSLs that were currently scaling. And only after that do you start learning... The more technical side. Yeah, then you start figuring out what you're actually doing. Yes. That's pretty much the process, but I don't know if I answered your question. Man, the thing is, I don't even know if that was a great question to begin with, but... I think it does translate... everything applies, right? but maybe it's just taught through a different lens. Yeah, it most

likely applies, but the execution here is just a bit different, right? I mean, If you pick up one of those courses you mentioned, like Anthony's course or whatever course, right? And hey, I'm not talking trash about you, Anthony, or anyone else selling courses. The guy is a beast. Seriously, he's running a whole affiliate operation right over here in Floripa. He's actually from around here—well, he's originally from Rio Grande do Sul. He came over here, him and his brother Marcel. Man, they took a absolute beating in FIFA right here. But I won't spill the details, right

guys? Well, now I already mentioned it, but I won't even state the score, okay? Actually, I will say it, but you edit that out, you know?.... So man, I think it was... Holy crap. Yeah, for a guy to get crushed like that... right, Gab? the thing is...Thiagão, edit that out, add a bleep, drop a tag on it, but I've already beaten... Thiagão, don't share those numbers, or no one will play against me. that I don't talk anymore, 'cause it's bad, man. Like, the kid comes here... Yeah, like the very... this guy here. You told me

in the car, I was like: "Damn, guess I'm not even playing." and this guy, Thiagão, where you're gonna bleep me out, right? Who's the... He came over here, and his wife goes: " Oh man, he trained specifically for this." I said: "Oh really? Alright then, go play against Anderson." He played against Anderson and beat Anderson two to one. I said: "Nice, the kid beat Anderson two to one. So you're ready to play me." Then he played me and got absolutely wrecked. I think it was... but why was I talking about this? I got off track.

Anthony's course, or something like that. Ah, right, Anthony's course. Man, I totally drifted off, guys, my bad. But Man, those courses are heavily templatized. Why? Because their objective is to train employees, to churn out people ready to step directly into an operation. What's the easiest way for a guy to join an operation? He steps in...like, Understands the process: do this, then this, then that, execute this exact cookie-cutter recipe. Then he goes out and executes it. but he doesn't necessarily learn how to think critically, you know? Dude, I feel like the, the launch crowd, right, Which

I think is, well actually, I don't just think, that's where your initial reference points really come from... and those guys are just way sharper when it comes to that whole thing of: "Man, I'm going to find a completely different angle here, something really creative and distinct that a standard copywriter wouldn't even consider," except they mess up everything else, you know? Uh-huh. They lack a solid structure, they lack proper proof elements... but man, the guy is creative. They brainstorm together and boom, that's it right there. You know a guy who is ridiculously creative, who builds incredible

creatives? the Ladeira Yes. ''Ladeira'' builds amazing creatives, he's essentially a comedian, man. He makes sales while cracking jokes, it's impossible not to like him. And he's exceptional at it. And again, he's not the standard benchmark because, come on, Ladeira is the Érico Rocha of Perpetual offers. He's massively famous, a giant. So his face commands an insane amount of authority to convert warm traffic—my goodness, he's unbelievable. But even so... his creativity really stands out as well. He's still remarkably good, exactly. But you have both worlds, right man? like, you manage to leverage the Structure of the

DR crowd... and not even just Black, right? I really need to stop calling it that, man. It's the structure of the Direct Response crowd, because Black is a whole nother beast, guys. If you don't understand that, well, you should really try to look into it. So yeah, you take that Direct Response structure combined with the pure creativity of launches. I mean, I think that's the absolute sweet spot, man. That's the combo that, when it's actually executed right, it just tends to perform insanely well. Uh-huh. I had never really looked at it from that angle, but

honestly, even with the copywriter working with me today, that's something I push for heavily. Because when he came onboard from that background—like Anthony's school, Amanda's crowd—I told him: "Man, but... He's going to throw apple cider vinegar in there to try and sell your low-ticket offer ''man, these creatives look identical to the ones I've already run." Then he went: "So, can I come up with a cool concept?" Man, that's literally what I expect, you know? And that's basically it—if your idea, if the creative you bring me fulfills the core principles we consider essential for a creative

to convert, man, the big idea can be as wild as you want, as long as it hooks the right audience and keeps them watching the ad. Nice. The limit is the sky, man. nice. Very good. I think it's, it's a different perspective that I have, you know? Of course, man. People just don't have this level of creativity. The first time I dealt with, I talked to a person who had that level of creativity was Luisa Velozo. Do you know her? Uh-huh She made that ASMR creative, you know? which is that thing, right guys, of talking

like this, tapping on stuff, that kind of junk, you know? Doing those things. So she took that and made one with a woman going tick, tick, tick, tapping right here. And it was a woman making a recipe and tapping on things, making noise. And at the end she said: "If you want to lose weight, swipe up." So she attracted them with ASMR, generated attention, converted attention into interest, then generated desire through the spoken copy and hit them with the CTA. I thought it was brilliant, I was like: "Damn!". Because the Direct Response crowd is stuck,

like, it's really just this: promise angle, contrary angle, problem solution, secret lead, so it's super templatized. And we lose a bit of creativity. I think the launch crowd, since they really starve in terms of copy, people don't even know what they're Doing, they have to have insane creativity... just to get attention, you know, man? Like back when we used to do launches, man, in the pre-launch phase, right, which is really where you decide the big idea, the launch promise, the headline, what the creatives and the theme will actually look like and all that. Man, the

meeting was literally four guys sitting in a room with absolutely nothing, just a whiteboard on the wall, writing stuff down to see what came out. And then out came, like, damn: a launch teaching how to be a co-producer with like a John Wick kind of vibe, you know? Stuff like that. Then we'd take that for the creatives, take scenes from the movie and turn them into ads. Just crazy stuff like that, you know? Dude, and look, that makes total sense, right? There's this guy, Charlie Munger, do you know him? Yes Do you know Luana? You

don't know? Like, Charlie Munger. and man, why I have Julia on my mind? What the hell, Julia. you're gonna get yourself in trouble at home. Yeah... Hey Gab, did any Julia come by here? No, right? No Julia at all, right? She doesn't look like a Julia, right, man. Luana, right? Luana. Not to me. but man, but the launch crowd, they have... actually, Charlie Munger, I was trippin', dude. Like, Charlie Munger says: "Man, if you want ants to show up right in front of you, what do you do? You put out sugar." So incentives are a

superpower, you have to align the incentives correctly, right? If you want Gab to set up the camera right there, look, now it's both of us right there, see? Over there, just put me, Gab. Look, if you want Gab to do the finger thing right, switching over there, you just pay him for every time he Switches cameras. Damn, the thing would be tick, tick, tick, right, Gab? It would be perfect. There would never be a single wrong frame, because he's actually being incentivized to do it. Like, you want him to stay completely still over there? Just

deduct a little bit from his salary right every time he switches cameras. So incentive is the law that drives human behavior, standard. And the launch crowd... they have a massive incentive for that launch stuff, right? I mean, like to be creative, because, man, you get one shot, one pitch, one funnel, and that's it. If that one thing fails, my friend, just forget about it. You'll have to go two or three months without launching, paying fixed costs, you know? If you don't get ROI, you can go broke, you see? So they have to be super Creative,

they have to be total snipers in what they're doing. Now the Direct Response crowd, man, what's really their incentive? They have to produce a massive amount of material just to keep offers converting, to refresh the offers. I mean, well, they have the ability to make multiple variations, test everything really fast, right? So their incentive is driven by volume, not by quality, it's by volume. That's why they make a ton of creatives. So look how interesting it is, things align, right? I think that's why the launch crowd is so much more creative than the direct response

marketing crowd. Do you agree with that or not? Man, I agree, but really only to an extent, you know, because a good chunk of it, like, I mean, one of the main things that actually drives creativity the most Is limitation as well. So you know your expert isn't actually going to record all the creatives you send him. You know you'll have to just figure things out on your own in some parts, you know, when we talk about launches. So you kind of just have to work with what you have there. In Direct Response, man, you

can literally do infinite things, especially when it comes to working with AI. Like, the sky's really the limit, right? So there's a lot of that hustle of making do with little, because I don't know what's up with experts who refuse to record creatives. Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know either, man. like what's up with that... Well, the guy is gonna make more money, man. Yeah, makes no sense at all. But anyway... after I started recording, I found out it's kind of annoying too, But I'm just being well incentivized, so I record a lot,

you know? nice. Yeah. So, there's a bit of that too. But I think the main difference is like, in a launch campaign, I can make, let's say... 50 creatives, right? In a Direct Response operation, the guy HAS to make those 50 creatives. So even if he runs out of ideas, he has to pull them out of somewhere, you know? And that's really where I think the importance of these processes comes in, so you don't just depend on a sudden spark or like, some inspiration to create an ad. What really helped me was having that combination,

you know? Of actually structuring what I was doing and learning new things to maintain a higher flow of creatives coming in. Yeah, Really good, man. And dude, going back to that, then, right? Like, to our creative structure. I got how you do the hook, and we discussed a lot of interesting stuff, right. Once we have the hook, this content part here, like, how do you handle it? Man, content I consider, like, I don't know, it goes after the hook and before the call to action, right? That's what I consider content. Some people call it the

body, whatever. To me, it's the creative content, right? To me, its main job is to really raise the person's level of awareness enough so that clicking the button actually makes sense. So they take that next step. So dude, I always like to do three things in this... like, three or four, three essential ones and a fourth optional one. Three essential things inside the content. First, the problem mechanism, The solution mechanism, and some element of proof. So basically, it's not strictly just the problem and solution mechanism, but first explaining the reason why the person isn't getting

the result they want, then explaining how they can actually get the result, and then proving that it's really possible. So to me, as long as the content has that whole thing, no matter how it's actually done, it's good. It can be telling a story, bringing someone else to speak, using an analogy, reading something out loud, whatever, multiple ways. It can even be just talking. Uh-huh. Having those three things works. And then the fourth one, the optional one, is the authority element. Uh-huh. So man, you want to hit these four, like, these three elements, which is

having a problem mechanism, meaning the reason why the person didn't get results, right? Then a solution mechanism, which is the reason why they will get results, an element of proof, and optional authority. This proof element you mentioned, what is it proof of? The problem mechanism, the solution mechanism, or something else? It can basically go anywhere. It can go before the problem mechanism, between the problem and solution mechanisms, or right at the end. So, for example, if I put it right at the beginning, I want to prove that what I said in the hook might actually

be real. So if I say: "Man, to scale your creative, you really need to Use the right format." Okay, based on what? Then I say: "Look, want to see? Check out these two examples. This creative is in the guru format. This one is in format X. This one brought a 4x ROI, this one brought 1.2." Like, I already proved what I was saying, you know? And then comes the problem and solution mechanism. So I explain why this happens and how the person can solve it. Hold on, hold on. Just let me interrupt you, because I

want to make sure I really got this. So man, I can choose where to position this proof element, given, the same content/body you mentioned, right? So in your example, I can say that hook line something like: "Did you know that if your format is wrong here, you could lose a lot of money? Look at this proof." Or you can say: "Did you know that if the format is wrong here, you could lose a lot of money? But if you have the right one, it can make you way more money? Look at this proof." So in

the first one I proved that it goes wrong, that the wrong format loses money. In the second one I proved that with the right format, you make money. Yep. And the proof is the same. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's what you're telling me, right, that we can take the same creative, the same content, the same copy, and insert an element of proof anywhere. And that's your framework. Yeah, it fits between those steps. Either before the problem mechanism, between the problem and solution, or after the solution. And, man, of course it's always going to prove whatever

was said right before, right? So it falls into that. So If I say- Why don't you put three proofs, one for each? Well, that's the thing, that's really what I'm saying. This is the baseline, you need at least one, but the amount you add.. can actually be anything, you know? At least three, at most three in this case. Yeah, because if we add too much, it might get too long. It might lose the narrative thread. uh-huh. Pretty much. So, if I say: "Look, the organic creative format works because with the Andromeda update, Meta is prioritizing,

formats that are native." you see? Then I add: "As written right here in the release notes Meta dropped when they launched Andromeda." I'm proving what I just said, which is the problem mechanism. then, I mean, then I can use the same argument, right? "So what you need to do is test formats that look like native content in your ads. Look at the result this guy got, he did this and look at his numbers." Then I prove the solution mechanism. And the solution mechanism, I actually think it's cool to transition directly to the product. When we

talk about low ticket, for example, you don't need to build mystery for the person to watch a class or anything. You're either going to transition to your catchy mechanism name, you know, your curious mechanism and all that, or you'll just transition straight to the product, you get it? Can you give me an example? Not sure if you can think of one. Yeah, I can. So I'm gonna continue with the example here about formats. Um, if I want to transition straight to the product, I'd say: "Look, this guy here tested this XYZ format and got this

specific result. Um, he got access inside This dashboard here, where there are 50 validated formats that you can adapt for your own creative today and scale even further." I transitioned to the product. Um, let's say I want to transition to the catchy name mechanism, whatever, which could be organic formats or organic creatives. This guy tested this specific format and got this result. That was only possible because instead of making creatives in the guru style, he made organic creatives just like the one you just saw. And then I transition to the mechanism. From there I can

send the guy to a video, to whatever. Pretty much that kind of vibe, does that make sense? yeah, I get it, man. But why is this authority thing optional? Where does that fit in? Man, so, that's an element that can actually make a huge difference, but I Don't consider it essential because there are really plenty of creatives I've already validated that don't have it at all. So why do I say it's optional? Because authority elements are already kind of built right into the proof itself. So, for instance, if I say that a statement released Meta...

if Meta released a statement... "The statement released Meta" would be pretty funny. If Meta released a statement proving what I'm talking about, it's an authority element and proof at the same time, if you know what I mean. If I show that people who are applying my method are getting results, that's an element of proof and authority at the same time. But if I want to play an authority card right in the middle: "man, and who am I to be telling you this? Man, I've been a copywriter for six years, tested over 4,000 creatives, and found

these formats scale the most. Or I've scaled over 20 million, and these Formats scale the most." Uh-huh. I can play that card right there, but it's kind of optional. Got it. Makes sense. But it works really well because, man, this is something super common for experts, where in the middle of the creative out of nowhere they drop: "Oh, and after years of helping people, graduating from Harvard, whatever, I made this material available." Like, they always play that card. It's funny. Yeah. The most standard proof element, right? that's exact thing I used to do back when

I was selling my cosmetic brand, Diatena. But, without a doubt, it's pretty played out, right? If we say that to the digital marketing market, people are gonna listen to it and go: "Ah, man, this Guy is just trying to throw in proof here that he's a big deal." It often ends up having the opposite effect. For this niche, for example, it's way more effective for me to show a student's result. Like someone who applied the method and got results. Yes. Or someone big saying the exact same thing. Like when I grabbed a clip of yours,

for instance—there was a workshop I did where I wanted to show people that, man, there's no point in stressing over structure, because at the end of the day everything boils down to the hook. So I grabbed a clip of you from the podcast and put it in there. People say: "This is the VTurb podcast, the biggest Direct Response podcast in Brazil, and they're saying the exact same thing." So that's an element of proof and authority at the same time. Uh-huh. Yeah, nice dude. Man, so like, once we have these elements right here for the content,

how do we actually define how long our content is gonna be? I mean, we can have an 80-second creative, or a one-minute, two, three, four-minute one. So, how do you pretty much approach that? Great question. My process is usually like this: I write down what I want to convey in as much detail as possible, and then I go back and trim away what isn't necessary. There's this thing a buddy of mine says—he's also a copywriter—he says that, man, copy, especially for creatives or low ticket offers, is less copy and more clarity. So, like, people need

to understand what you're saying. There's no point in inventing little stories, trying to make it pretty, or dropping a curious Name if the person doesn't understand what you're saying. You gotta keep it crystal clear. and then, just more or less like that, I write down in detail what I really want to convey. And right now, I'm actually doing a lot of that, you know? Like, I use some AI for dictation. Is there a specific one you use? I use one called Typeless. Typeless Yeah. Fancy, man. I thought you were gonna say you used Whisper Flow.

So, people talk about that one too, but I believe they do the exact same thing. I don't know, I've never tested the other one, but I use this one. Typeless. Nice. And then I just talk away. Usually it comes out a bit random, I ramble a little when I'm speaking like that, and then I do a review pass removing whatever can be Removed. Um, but it depends a lot on the big idea, man. For example, a creative explaining the Meta algorithm. There's no way I can explain that in 30 seconds. Uh-huh. Like, I'm gonna need

to take a longer path so the guy understands the details and all that. Now, proving that you can double your results just by changing the creative format? Man, with one screenshot I can prove that to the guy. So that's a creative that's gonna be shorter. But my creatives, usually both the ones I make for myself and the ones I write for other people, they always average around one minute, a minute and a half max. Anything more than that and I feel like it's dragging out. It could've been shorter. Yeah, I get it. But of course

that varies from market to market, right? Like, if you look at Nutra, there are creatives that are seven minutes, six minutes long. Man, some of these people run the entire VSL inside a YouTube ad. A whole one-hour ad right there, you know? Whoa, wait, let me pause the podcast. Man, if you could pick anyone in the digital marketing industry to be right here on Scaling Secrets being interviewed by me, who would it be? Who's the person you'd love to see breaking down their numbers, strategies, and operational backstage? If you know who that person is, man,

we built a super quick form that's right here in the description for you to nominate them for us. It takes just one minute to fill out. And then, man, you drop their name in there, we'll study their operation, see how we can make it happen, and eventually, if it makes sense, we'll bring them right here to the podcast for an interview to Deliver that content for you at home. So, man, if you have someone in mind you think is worth interviewing, go down to the description, submit their name, and it'll help us know what kind

of content is worth creating for you, alright? But let's jump back into the podcast. and alright, one minute or so, awesome, got it. and we have another element here in the structure phase, which is the call to action, right? And having a creative that's one minute, up until the call to action, I understand that, like, it makes sense for this creative to exist, to be one minute up to the CTA, because... wait, no, sorry, I got mixed up here, but my point is: The creative duration is most critical up until the initial CTA, like the

initial Call to action, right? Because we're gonna convince the person and tell them to click, and like, if we don't tell them to click right there, in that timeframe we might lose them. After that one minute, right? That's actually applied heavily in VSLs, you know. After the initial pitch, I can literally have a virtually infinite post-pitch. In my VSL I can drop the pitch at around 20 minutes, the button reveals, and then I can have two hours of post-pitch breaking objections, talking about a whole lot of things. And I know that's real in webinars, right?

Like, webinars work pretty much just like that: you get in there, make the pitch, and then spend the rest of the webinar just overcoming objections. Or showing testimonials, answering questions, or doing whatever else. And Man, it's really wild, while you're sitting there talking, people are watching and buying right then and there. Have you ever noticed if that actually happens in creatives? Having a creative that's one minute long up to the CTA and that's it, it just ends at the CTA. Then you add another minute of social proof, then another minute of something else, and so

on. Until you end up with, say, a 10-minute creative where the first CTA, or as you call it right here, the call to action, stays at the exact same mark, at one minute, but you have this massive load of stuff in the quote-unquote post-pitch of our creative. Have you ever really tested or seen anything like that before? Yeah, I have. And that's something I demand from all my mentees, man. Don't just drop the call to action and end the creative. Always give people more Arguments. That's something I learned from Anthony right here on the podcast.

Because I was already doing that in VSLs and I thought: "man, it makes zero sense not to do it in creatives too." And if you look closely, it's clockwork. Most people's creatives, especially in white creatives, go like this: "so if you want to discover how to do such and such, click learn more down below. Next video. You know? like, Damn, why not put more stuff at the end? I mean, there's no reason not to, because people will keep watching. And that's something I always do. got it So, even looking at that, another thing I also

do that I see very few people doing, But that always improves the CTR of the ad, is that after you finish the spoken copy, like, you finished, made the call, the first call, brought more arguments after, made the second call, brought more arguments, made the third one. After that right here, there's still another 10 seconds of, like, a final banner, reinforcing the product promise, reinforcing the benefit, and showing the price when it's low ticket, or reinforcing the call at the end. It's a little slide that will have all the info, and it will run for

10 seconds with background music. I see. Man, that always improves the CTR, and it's the laziest thing in the world to do, and it gets results. Yeah, it makes sense, dude. Because whoever gets to the very end, you're gonna make it obvious for them, like: "Man, click," you know? Do something. Got it. And what about the call to action part? When you told me, right: "hook, content, call to action." Man, the call to action part, I was like: "Bro, alright, this is gonna be the simplest, most obvious thing, no secrets at all, nothing too complex."

Am I just tripping, or is there actually something you think is interesting to do right in the call to action, like some insight people usually don't really have? What do you have to tell me about that? Man, there's plenty of stuff you can do in the call to action, and I agree that it's something people neglect, like, it's the same thing as the... Yeah, I already neglected it right here in my head, man. It's the same thing as, for example, the part of the... this isn't as common today, because of how things evolved, but like

the offer section in a VSL. Man, the Guy is already exhausted there, spent days writing the thesis, he just wants to finish the VSL, and then the offer turns out sloppy. But now Derick educated people to make the offer the right way. A big offer. Yeah, big offer. But back in the day, the calls to action were lazy. But I believe the offers were lazy, too. But the call to action, man, as for the essentials you need to have there, like, for me, it has to have a good product presentation, but mostly focusing more on

the benefits, so just bringing the benefits of the solution. And why do I actually say solution instead of product here? Because, man, to work for VSLs, low ticket, live launches, or whatever you're selling, whatever the next step is, right? Uh-huh. So if you're driving traffic to a VSL, you'll state the benefits the person will get by watching the VSL. If you're driving to low ticket, you'll tell them The benefits they'll get after buying the low ticket. If you're driving to a paid launch, you'll talk about the benefits of attending the live launch. So it varies

depending on the funnel. But yeah, first step, benefits. Second, you make the first CTA, right? Next, urgency or scarcity, or both, you see? So, spot limits, some bonus the person gets if they buy today, something along those lines. right? You make the second call. Lastly, I like to do a final segmentation. So a deeper segmentation. Like, man, if you're tired of banging your head against the wall with your creatives, testing 50 creatives to validate one, spending hours in the Ad Library searching, click the button and you'll solve this problem once and for all with these

formats and so on. So it's a final, deeper identification, you know? The guy who stayed until the end, maybe he doesn't know exactly, or you bring a segmentation like: "Man, this works whether you run low ticket, whether you run VSLs, whether you run paid launches, it doesn't matter. The formats are universal, they work for any type of funnel." So, like, bringing a... it's kind of an identification combined with an objection break, you know? So that's the final blow I put in there, and then comes the third call to action, followed by that video or that

little banner afterwards. Uh-huh. So I consider that essential for the CTA as well. Nice man. Good stuff. Because a lot of creatives get lost in the CTA, man. A lot of creatives get lost in the CTA because the person attracts attention, builds interest, but then it's Just: "If you want to know more about this, click down below." that's it That's it. Yeah, true Know more about what, though? Uh-huh. Yeah, dude. It's laziness. It's literally laziness. Or lack of knowledge too, right? Because I didn't know I had to put that in. So... it's a bit of

both. I think it's a bit of both, man. But honestly, I think it's probably more about just not knowing, right? Because there are very few people who actually put that much quality into every single step of the funnel. Like it or not, I mean, it's an extra effort, right? As you said, many people end up neglecting or used to neglect the offer section in a VSL simply because, like, you know, man, as you said, it's just a Ton of work to do everything else. So the guy arrives exhausted when it's time to make the offer,

and I think it's the exact same thing with creatives. I remember that, at least, for a while, started making two CTAs. I would do CTA one, and right off the bat I'd say something like: "Hey, did you know... that there's a new way to look younger? This way works with this and that mechanism, and if you want to know how it works, just click down below, to learn everything. but if you... Yeah, so you can learn everything, right? I was so impressed when that happened, because I learned about it in such and Such way, hero's

journey story, etc, etc, but everything changed when this happened. So that's why I recommend clicking. So there was a CTA right there, like, within 10 seconds, to just boom, drop the first CTA so the person already knows, man, I need to click. But then, at the end of the creative, there was another CTA, so I started doing that. But it took time, you know? I probably had, say, four or five years operating at a high level already, you know? So... Yeah, it was something I did kind of unconsciously, like, not just... because, for example, when

I joined those operations I told you about where people ran more DR over there, they had tons of creatives, but the calls to action were all like: "Do you want to click? Do you want to..." For example, in the archetype test: "Do you want to discover your archetype? Then click the button below." The creative ended right there. And then I said: "No, put a... let's test a small tweak there, let's test it." We tested it, and it improved things a bit. Then it became a rule, like, you can't finish without calling for something else, and

today for me it's an absolute rule, like, you can't have just one call to action in a creative under any circumstances. awesome, dude. The cool thing about this is that it's literally a puzzle, man. Instead of placing urgency and scarcity there, you can bring social proof, and then swap the order. You can place urgency and scarcity before the product. Like: "Hey, I spent months developing this, but I'm only releasing it for 100 people. Why? You'll get access to this, that, and the other, and if too many people get access to it, everyone will start using

it and then it won't work anymore, etc." That's what people used to use a lot in make-money-online, right? "Careful with some people, because this is limited." Uh-huh. There are several ways to work that in the call to action, and you can play around with it a lot. And you don't lose anything, man, you've already made the call. Whatever you say from that point on is pure gain. Of course you can't mess things up, but that's pretty hard to do. In theory, we're not here to mess up, right guys? but man, this puzzle thing you mentioned,

that leads into variations then. yeah How do you handle the variations part? Do you assume, from what I'm understanding, You assume it's a puzzle and see what to change in that specific element, or is there something else you apply in this variation process? Man, variations, I like to do... By the way, bro, let me interrupt you. Before that, explain to everyone why we need to make variations in the first place. What is a variation and why do we have to do it? Right. Man, a variation is basically making variations... of a validated asset, a creative,

a hook, for example, a VSL. Whether it's... man, what's a good word to explain this? Like, pieces that look alike... Similar? But not identical. Yeah, similar. So things that take what was validated in one piece and repeat, replicate it in other pieces, whether it's a creative or Whatever asset, you see? Making mini variations within the structure... Like, variations are already self-explanatory, right? But the reason why you should make variations is because sometimes the way you're communicating, for example in a creative, is attracting like a specific archetype of your audience. But if you hit that in

another way, you'll attract a different archetype. So, for example, if I bring it up in the anti-aging niche... or let me go back to weight loss where we already have the archetypes. Like, if I'm making a creative in a format where a girl is doing her makeup with her friends before going to a party and telling a story, it's gonna attract a younger audience, the girl who, let's say, wants to lose weight at 18 just because she compares herself to her friends. That might be true. Now, if I put a news anchor talking about... telling

the same story on the news, it's gonna attract an audience that consumes the news, which is probably an older audience, so showing the story of an older woman who got that result, something like that, you know? But you keep the same copy. Uh-huh. What tip do you give people, like, to get these, I mean, not ideas, right, but to know what to vary first? Because a person can vary infinite elements, right? They can vary this, that, whatever. So, what do you think is worth varying, and in what order? Uh-huh. Okay. I do four types of

variations. Actually, it's not four, it's three. Which is creative adaptation, which is basically what? You take a creative that's in one format and convert it into another format, using the exact same copy, maintaining the same line of thought, keeping the same big idea, the same structure, just changing the creative format. Uh-huh. Another type of variation I call SMDW. Which is an acronym for same message, different words... meaning, keeping the core idea with a new wording. SMDW yeah Damn, this mechanism is new, huh? Yeah dude. This mechanism is really new. This one is new. And basically,

it's saying the same copy, but using different words. So changing it, you can use synonyms, maybe change the word order a Bit, basically conveying the same message in a different way. Man, SMDW format and the third one. What's going on? The third one is the copy upgrade, where basically I'm gonna take the copy that already validated and add elements to it. So if this copy doesn't have, like, a really eye-catching visual element, I'm gonna add it. If it doesn't have a proof of demonstration, I'm gonna add it. If it doesn't have, for example, the authority

part, I'm gonna add it. So it's kind of taking the copy that validated there and gradually adding things to it to see what adds value and what doesn't, you know? Uh-huh. And that's where the hook variation comes in too, right? Since you asked about the order. The very first thing I do when I validate a creative is test new hooks. And what's The goal of testing these new hooks? Usually, I'll either keep the copy and vary the format, or I'll just keep the format and vary the copy, you know? And that varies a lot depending

on... it depends on the creative itself, right? What I'll be able to adapt and all. Because there are creatives that are more of a wild card, like, "oh, any audience archetype will identify with this creative, this body, this content, and this call to action." There are others that aren't so much. So it varies more on that. For example, if the content is more generic and all archetypes will identify with it, in the copy there I'll keep the... in the hook, I'll keep the format and keep varying the copy to bring in these different audiences. Now,

if the creative is more specific to one archetype and it's selling well, I'll keep the exact same copy and keep varying only the format to attract people in a Different way. So that's the first variation I make there, and I test at least three hooks for that creative. Yeah, good one. Man, dude, the hook part I really understand, right, the ad format I understand too, the SMDW format, which in Portuguese, .is basically the same copy...but with different words.. That's it, right? It's the same message, different words. Same message, different words... delivering the same idea in

a whole new way. Good one. And finally, you called it a copy upgrade, which is basically taking it and Adding persuasion elements to the creative. And you said the order you follow is testing the hooks first, which I define as the beginning of the creative, involving both the format and the narrative. Is that correct? Exactly. That's it. And then we test one at a time, right? Nice. Man, like, this copy upgrade thing, is there an order that you... well, I don't know if there's an order or elements you look to add first to the creative,

or does that depend from creative to creative? Because.... there's a huge... I mean there's just a ton of stuff you can add, as you said yourself, right? You know? I can add authority, I can add this, I can add that. dude, is there like, any way for us to really know what to add first? Or do you believe we should actually just test it out, add a few things we think are interesting, which I don't know yet, right, because if I knew I would've done it already, so I'm testing. So I'm just gonna add the

things there and go for it. What exactly do you have to say about that? Man, I think first we have to look at what's basic and missing, maybe. So, man, as we talked about before, for example, the social proof element. It can be in three places inside the body, inside the content, right? I can place it... if it's only before the problem mechanism, I can add one more proof element between the two there to manage to prove it. if it doesn't have a super strong, super explicit authority element, I can add it, you know? So

it's about looking at what's basic and missing in that creative, maybe. And the basics being the premises there, the problem mechanism, The solution, proof of authority, and concrete proof of what you're saying, etc. Basically, all the types of proof we have to add in there. Uh-huh. If one of these is missing, that's already the first thing you can add. And another thing too, is just playing around with other elements, which all goes back to that, but for example, taking things you saw in other creatives and bringing them right over to the one we're improving, you

know? Uh-huh. So, for example, there's a creative where I actually explain logically why you need to use the organic format for your content. I explain that there's the banner blindness effect from people avoiding ads, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. I can take that and, after explaining it, just add a comparison there. So, want to see? I'll show you in practice. Look at this picture here and this one here, which one looks like an ad? Oh, this one. Well, this one is a document of whatever, and this one actually is an ad. Well, it doesn't

look like one, right? Blah blah blah. Anyway. I can keep adding these things, which at the end of the day actually all go back to proof elements, authority, anyway. Just a different way to bring that all in, right? And a lot of the stuff to add comes down to feeling too, just looking at it and going: "Man, it would be cool to fit this in here." And then you test it. Uh-huh. And also from the essential stuff you can put in. And where you can tweak the most is in the content, right? In the hook,

you're gonna put, say, an authority. So, for example, instead of saying: "Hey, I tested, changed the format of my Creative, and it scaled way more." Adding: "I tested this technique from Hormozi of testing creative formats, and it sold way more." I brought an authority element there that will segment for my target audience and add extra weight to what I'm saying. You get it? Same thing as saying: "Hey, this recipe will make you lose weight. This recipe that Virginia used will make you lose weight. Yeah. It brings an extra element there in the hook, or anyway,

you can fit that in anywhere in the creative, and that's pretty much it. Uh-huh. But that one isn't, like, the variation that generates the most results, like, it's the one that will keep the creative selling there, it will bring you more Variations. Oh, really? Which one is the one that generates the most results? Man, for me, in the cases I've seen, it's creative adaptation. Which is taking a validated creative and switching its format. That goes for hooks too, right? Yeah, I mean, I probably agree with you, that one seems like the most badass of them

all, no doubt. Because we'll have a whole new way to grab the person's attention, right? Exactly. And usually it's gonna be something very few people are doing, so just that right there already sets it apart. Man, weirdly, surprisingly, I have no more questions. Oh, crazy. Like, yeah, but it became very clear to me, man, that you have a lot of influence From... well, as I told you on the podcast, you really have a lot of influence from the launch crowd, from that crazy creativity of launches, and you combined that with direct response marketing principles, you

know? Like, then as I said on the VTurb podcast, right, I think you're actually the first person I've seen here on the Scaling Secrets podcast who talked about these things. Because the other podcasts I have about creatives are much more, I'd say, just templatized, you know? Yours is a bit more creative, more open, which is that influence coming from launches, you get it? So, like, man, that's really, really cool. . And I know that today you have a low ticket product where we talk about formats, right? Uh-huh. You have mentorship too. And, man, by the

way, I didn't ask you this, but what is it that you do exactly? Because we got to... I didn't ask you this at the beginning, right? Like, do you kind of teach the white info-product crowd, I mean, these more technical things, or how is it? Tell me. I think I didn't ask you at the start, right? Man, I think not. Maybe brushed over it, but... Man, basically what I teach people to do is go through the process I went through, maybe, which was what? like, being in the white market, trapped in what the launch school

taught us, right? But adapting a lot of what comes from the black market, the nutra market, the real grassroots direct response crowd, selling to people who have never seen you before, 50-minute VSLs, one-hour VSLs, that style. Because a lot of what the big names in white hat digital teach, like Erico, Ladeira, Ícaro himself, that thing of, man, hours of screen time, three, four, five-day launches, insane content production for the guy to trust you, and then you run retargeting and he buys, you know? Micha's tests were a lot of that too. Yes. And man, nowadays, I

won't say that doesn't work, because those guys are selling like crazy. But for the info-product creator, for the guy who has his knowledge, wants to share it, wants to create his info-product and live off of it, man, he doesn't have time to build that authority, he doesn't have time to build all of that. And the easiest way to shortcut that is through evergreen funnels. And what I believe drives things today, what determines whether an evergreen funnel will work or not, besides having a good offer that aligns with the market And brings a cool result, is

the creative. And that's the thing, all these schools didn't focus on creatives. They didn't focus on teaching how to make a creative, it's like: "oh, for a creative you just have to grab attention at the start, talk about your product, and tell the guy to tap learn more." Yeah, exactly. That's pretty much it. But there are so many nuances within that, man, that we could spend hours talking, just like we did here. We actually did, right? Exactly. And we could talk way more than that. Oh, man, I know that all too well. So I see

myself in the position of, like, bringing these strategies from the Black guys, from the hardcore DR guys, over to the White crowd that wants to get into DR now, building their low-ticket offers and their VSL funnels, which are super hot right now. But that's also happening. So these guys who sell VSLs and low-ticket strategies are way too focused On product creation, funnels, and value ladders, while the creative continues to be... not neglected, but not getting the attention it deserves. Not as much as it should. Yeah, not as much as it should. So, like, guys just

say: "model what's working, and that's it." But it's not just that. So, as we saw, there are a lot of other things you can do. So, I see myself in a position to deliver what people need to make creatives that actually scale and bring in more predictable profits. Like, being able to not only make good creatives, but make good creatives consistently. Every week, running a batch that validates good creatives, and finding the winners in that batch that are gonna scale up. And most importantly, understanding why it worked so you can replicate it later, you see?

But without locking them into a rigid methodology, so they don't just get Trapped in it, right? So it doesn't become repetitive with the whole market doing the exact same thing, you know? And I honestly don't even think that works anymore, man. I think it might work just a little bit. I think what really works is this whole thing you're talking about. That's what I'm telling you. People, like, these guys, are tired of seeing small results. They want to scale, they want to make their 100k like Roas is doing with his people, or make their 10k

like others are doing. But doing it this way, building funnels based only on your expertise, without looking at what the market is doing, creating your product out of nowhere, like a mentorship that... anyway, it might work, you'll sell, but you could be doing way more if you understood what the guys making a million or two million a Day are doing. Uh-huh. And adapting that, because it's not just about copy-pasting either. They are different markets, different strategies, and totally different audiences, you know? So I see my role as bringing the core principles of Direct Response so

people can apply them right to their evergreen funnels, for people selling legit stuff that actually brings results and really adds real value to society. Nice, man. Nice. and man, what's your Instagram again? It's gui.serraglio.... I need to change that handle, it's so hard to spell. Are you crazy, man? That's your name. Yeah, but I always have to spell it out. S-E-R-R-A... Man, my handle... I'll never be able to get mine because it belongs to the mayor of... where is he from? Recife, right... is Recife a city? Recife is a city, not a state, right? No.

What state is Recife in then? Pernambuco, I think. Recife... yeah, I think so. Yeah, that's it. Forgive us guys. Man, people don't know, you know? The folks up North think everyone down here is from Rio Grande do Sul, like everyone's a Gaúcho, you know? From Paraná down, everyone's a Gaúcho to them, but it's all good, I get it. But the mayor of Recife has my handle, João Campos, so... forget it, no way I'm getting it back from that guy. And back in the day, it was just me on YouTube, right? You'd search João Campos and

only I popped up. Now you search João Campos, and I don't show up anymore. Which is good and bad, right? It's good because I don't like showing my face, but bad because I kind of have to. But anyway, pretty bizarre to be a podcast host and hate showing my face. Proof of that: check my Instagram and see if I post anything there. I don't post, I don't want to, I don't like it. But man, gui.serraglio, S-E-R-R-A-G-L-I-O, Serraglio. exactly Hold up! So guys, Guilherme's Instagram will be right on the screen, right? and over on your Instagram,

like, if someone wants to learn from you, what can they get from you? What can they buy? Man, we have a few low-ticket products, which are super practical so people can literally pick them up, understand, and apply them straight to their ads. We have one for formats and one for hooks, where they can use templates to build variations, adapt creatives, and stack hooks. You do that and you can get great results. A lot of people manage to 5x Their creative ROI just by changing the format. So it's something that delivers massive results, you get it?

And we also have our mentorship, where besides creatives, we work on the entire funnel, right? From building the mechanism itself to creating the offer, understanding the product position, and giving an overall breakdown to make the evergreen funnel work. Awesome. great, dude. So guys, Guilherme's Instagram is showing up on the screen once again. Anyone interested in learning from Gui can go check out his offers over on Instagram, both the low-ticket products and the more advanced stuff, right? And man, basically, that was pretty much all I had for today. And, look at that, guys... people come here

and they just don't believe, like for real, That we're gonna talk for over two hours, you know? People go: "No way, how come?" How long did you think you were actually gonna speak here? Tell us. Man, I thought it would take two hours max. like, pushing it, two hours. How long have we been recording, Gab? We're at three hours and 22 minutes of podcast recording now. But when we got here, we didn't start recording right away. We arrived, chatted, and then you went and did a bunch of stuff. You gave me my gift, I gave

you yours. So, man, time flies, you know? It's normal. It's not that I don't want to make short podcasts, guys. I was telling Guilherme, I do want to, but I can't because we have to extract real value, and that takes work. And like, doing shallow content... why would you even watch that, right? So my goal is to deliver deep, technical content. So yeah, after you go check Gui's Instagram on the screen, at least follow him there and say: "Hey man, came from VTurb," show him some love. And what else should you do? So go ahead

and click that share arrow that's right down below and do exactly what the person in the screenshot on screen did: which was to grab that share link, drop it in a WhatsApp group and say, "Check out this awesome podcast talking about this topic." Share the podcast, because the more you share it, the more the channel grows, and the more top guests I can actually bring on here to interview. Guilherme, where did you eat lunch today? Remember the name of the restaurant? Artusi. He ate at Artusi, okay? Was it good? It was insanely good. Insanely good,

right? Insanely good. Right. How many reais did you spend? zero Zero reais, right? Yep. And who paid? It was me, right? Yeah... it was VTurb. Right, VTurb. Like, running a podcast costs money, man. This one was a bit cheaper because funnily enough, he and Luana not Julia, but Luana.. they live around here, so it's easier without hotel expenses. But imagine bringing a guy from way over in Recife, Pernambuco... imagine bringing three guests for a round table: three plane tickets, three hotels, three of everything. So guys, help us grow, because we invest real money here and

it's completely free for you there. There's no cost, you're just sharing it, so it really benefits you. Just like this podcast helped you, it can easily help other people too, right? And if you made it all the way to the end, I assume it helped you. So go ahead and click that arrow down here, do what the guy in the screenshot did, drop it in a WhatsApp group, and share it so more people can find the podcast and discover Guilherme's content on creatives, cool? And Guilherme, I already pitched your Instagram, I always send people there

to just check out the guests. and there's just one more thing I want from you, man, then I'll let you go. Actually, maybe two, if you want to get beaten on FIFA, that's up to you. I don't recommend it, though! But anyway. Here it is: I always finish the podcast by letting the guest leave a message for the VTurb audience, okay? So look at this camera right here, that Gab is pointing to... look at my hand there, that one right there... and say whatever you want, right? Some people like to leave a motivational message to

never give up, talk about God, reinforce a key insight from the podcast, or even send love to their mom... like, literally whatever you feel like saying here, man, go ahead. Look at the audience out there, there'll probably be around 10,000 people watching you. Way more. God willing, man... that's the average, right? Let's break records. Hell yeah, love it! So there'll be about 100,000 people watching. Take it away. First off, I really wanna thank you for having me here. A lot of what I built and what I know, I actually learned right here on the VTurb

podcast. The work you guys do here is just a huge contribution to the digital marketing market, especially by bringing guests in and pulling out deep insights the way you do. Really, it's so good! Also, sending a big shoutout to my mom and dad back home in Chapecó, freezing over there. And man, I want to leave a message today for both info-product creators here in Brazil, the experts, and for the behind-the-scenes team working with them as well. So to the experts: man, you can't rely solely on your personal image alone. I mean, you really need to

learn deeply about marketing and Direct Response principles as well. See what people are doing, see what you can replicate in your own projects, because if you're not doing it, someone else will. Someone is learning from me, watching the VTurb podcast, and you're gonna fall behind. So start paying attention to this. I know this shift is happening, but speed it up, because it's totally worth it. And whenever you need to learn about creatives, just follow me on Instagram. To the behind-the-scenes team: learn a lot about this too. And if you dream of creating your own products,

getting out of the background, and creating content... it seems insanely hard and unimaginable at first, but once you take that first step and record the first video, everything gets way easier and smoother. It's something I always tell Luana: if everything goes wrong, we just go back to doing what we were doing before. If everything had failed, I'd just go back To copywriting services. So the risk is practically zero, unless you go into crazy debt, but that's hard to do. So I think that's the message. Awesome, dude... Did you like it? Loved it, man, incredible! So

guys, this was another episode of the Scaling Secrets podcast. Guilherme's Instagram is showing up on screen once again. For anyone interested, go follow him and learn from him there. Share the podcast, and I'll see you guys next Tuesday at 5 PM, unless we change the schedule, but I don't think so. So that's pretty much it, a big hug to everyone, and thanks! Thank you so much for watching another episode of Scaling Secrets. If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to like this video and subscribe to the VTurb channel so you get future episodes right in

your feed. That means a lot to us. And if you do that, I promise I'll keep bringing the best guests here to share top-tier content with you, okay? And if you're looking for more episodes to watch, I'll leave two episodes right here somewhere on the screen from Scaling Secrets. Click on them, check them out, it's definitely worth it. Big hug and see you next time!