Will VC destroy your startup?

Most VCs will ghost your pitch, but this one will tell you to your face, you don't need our money. Raising venture capital might actually be the worst thing you can do for your startup right now. 3 years ago, building an MVP cost $320,000 in 18 months of your life. Today, 1 week and 20 bucks. The cost of software is collapsing to zero. And if your only mode is the code, you don't have a mode. You have a countdown. So, Here's the real question VCs are asking when you walk in the room. Not can this work,

but does the founder have distribution baked into their DNA? Because the product can be copied overnight. The founder's network, their obsession, their tribal knowledge of a specific industry that can't be cloned. That's the moat. And here's a move almost no founder is making. Bring a distribution co-founder to the cap table before you raise. Not as a hire, as an Equal. Give up the equity early because the founder who already has the audience, the channel, the community will win every time over the better product with no one to sell it. But before you go chase a

check, sit with this. If you bootstrapped to 500K ARR and kept 100% of your own company, would you actually be worse off than taking that seed round? Welcome to AI for Founders. I'm Ryan Estis. Today I talked to Carson Vest, investment associate at Denver Ventures. In this conversation, we go deep on what VCs are actually betting on in the age of AI. why founder DNA matters more than your product and how to think about whether venture capital is even the right path for you. If you're a founder trying to figure out your next move in

a world where AI keeps changing the game, this one's for you. And check out the newsletter at afounders.co. This is where we turn conversations like This into tools you can actually use. Every issue is packed with insights, frameworks, and founder moves that you won't find anywhere else. If this conversation sparked something, the newsletter will pour fuel on it. So go sign up at afounders.co right now. If this episode hit different, leave us a review because every five stars is basically a co-founder application. And hey, if you're trying to land serious podcast Appearances to build your

brand and your distribution as a founder, you need Kitcaster. Kitcaster is a premier podcast booking agency that gets founders like you on the right shows, in front of the right audiences, and at the right time. They handle the pitching, the booking, and the strategy so you can just show up and tell your story. Go check them out at kitcaster.com and start building the distribution that no one can copy. That's Kitcaster by Most. >> That's it. Carson, thank you so much for joining me. >> Of course. Glad to be here. >> Yes. This is probably podcast

number six, I think, at the AI clubhouse. >> Nice. >> Here in Denver. >> It's great, right? >> It's got a good vibe. >> I like it. There's the uh I think the Thunderview CEO dinner is is here tonight, which that should be cool. Hopefully they don't pour in and make a bunch of noise. I have to shush them for the podcast. >> Best of luck with that. >> Yeah, exactly. Um excited to talk to you. Um your your firm is denver ventures.co. Is that right? >> Yes. >> Yeah. And I know you're new to

the area. Um but old hat for as far as like venture capital. So, one, as we were talking about before, I feel like I'm The mayor of Denver, so I want to extend a warm welcome to you to Denver. How's it been being in Denver? >> I mean, it's been amazing. Um, came out from LA, so brought the weather with me. >> Uh, I I love it just being so close to the mountains, >> absolutely no traffic. Um, and the people are just wonderful. You can go anywhere, whether it's a bar or a restaurant or

even just biking outside and you will walk away with three new Friends. Like everyone's just friendly but chill. It's not like an overly um ambitious crowd. So, it's been nice. >> Yeah, I agree. I always feel like the people of Denver kind of inherit the best traits from everywhere. Like definitely with a startup community, there's some aggressiveness that you might see on the east coast, you know, but you get like kind of the laidback of the West Coast and then you get kind of the hospitality of the South, you know, You get all that. >>

Agreed. >> And we don't inherit anything from uh the Midwest because they're all crazy anyway. >> Hey, now that's where I'm from. >> I think it's nice though because it is a a city of transplants, so I feel like you get a lot of different perspectives, a lot of different cultures all kind of in one. Totally. Yeah. Um, just to follow this rabbit hole a little bit, I've been really going deep on like um, prehistory in the Americas because, you know, Colorado was Mexico until like 1856. You know, it was all the way came up

here, which is a better perspective of like this region generally speaking because all the way up and down the Rocky Mountains there was there's been like longtime trade routes, you know, all the way from Canada to Mexico there and back. So I, you know, I love the Old West for one, you know, being a dusty Western guy myself, >> right? >> Um, so like starting to expand the reach of like, okay, you find the Comanches way down south, the Arapjo, the Apaches, and you keep going south and then you ultimately end up in Mexico and

you start finding like the Aztecs and like then before the Aztecs, there were the Tolteks and there's all these like amazing civilizations in Mexico, you know, the Mayans of course and like all These other indigenous tribes. But the story of the Aztecs are really interesting because they were actually a lot of people speculate they came from kind of this four corners region like they were they came in and then just like took over. They they found a lot of success, >> you know. So, so culturally like Denver and again I'm on my soap box here

>> because >> Mayor Ryan, >> that's right. I'm a bit of an amateur historian and I I love to preserve the the culture of Denver where you have this like, you know, you could say Latino or Hispanic population of Colorado where people always think they're from somewhere else, but it's like no, like we've been here for a long time, you know, and so you have this like kind of rich exchange, but of course, you know, the difference between Aztecs and Mexico and let's say the Arapjo of Colorado is pretty vast, you know. Anyway, >> it's

it's fascinating and there's so much good information out there now. It's just I can't I can't help myself. >> Definitely dig in. Um I'm actually Native American, so uh Apache. >> A Are you really? >> Well, Apache on my mom's side and Blackfoot on my dad's side. Blackfoot is Ohio area. Yeah. >> Um so yes, lots of lots of history There. I wish people understood and knew more about it. And it's actually kind of fascinating when you can see like if you go to New Mexico or if you go to Arizona, there's still a lot

of tribes that are there. Uh and so% >> um it's an interesting history, but I think it's kind of gotten lost >> in a lot of ways. >> Yeah. You know, and it's um that's cool. I can tell I can see the cheekbones >> and the uh the eyes. >> Totally. >> Yep. >> That's neat. Yeah. I'm just a straight gringo, you know, white boy. I he'd got the 23 me done was like like please give me a sliver of something, you know. Well, I mean, no disrespect to the queen and the king. My family

was always like, "Oh, we're Italian. We're Italian." I was like, "Okay, okay." And then we got it back and it was like, "You're English." Like 99.9%. I was like, "Oh, man." you know, no disrespect to my tribe, but like I dug into that and the church was just really good at eradicating any kind of like indigenous culture from England. They're just like, >> well, what's interesting if when I've done 23 and me or some some other ones that are along the same lines, um, it comes back as just Asian because there's not enough data for

the Native American tribes to specify which one. And so Obviously through my lineage on both sides of my family, I can know which tribe I'm in. Yeah. But without that, it just says Asian as like >> a blanc, which >> like five billion people. >> Exactly. Uh so that was also disappointing on my front when I got it back and I was like, what is this? >> Yeah. Asian. Yeah. Well, hopefully they'll get better fidelity and I I'm sure they will. I mean, now they start Unleashing AI on this stuff and we'll see. We'll see

what happens, you know. But that's cool. Yeah. I I kind of um grew up with in my teenage years with this like um with these Lakotas. There's a bunch of Lakotas in in Denver and they kind of took me under their wing. I had a ponytail so I could kind of fit in, you know, at the time um and did a bunch of ceremony and stuff with them. And you know, it it's just for people that aren't like maybe familiarized with like Native American culture in the States, it's like they're just the best people. so

funny and warm and nice and in my case they were very welcoming, you know, I think largely because I couldn't have kind of stood on business about being a white boy because I grew up and that was my name here in Denver, you know. So I was like I don't have a problem with that because there is a lot of like what you call white guilt >> where people see or talk to indigenous Peoples and they want to do like I'm so sorry what my people did for your people and they're talking about 150 years

ago. It's like, "Hey, man, these people live in the model world. They're real." You know what I mean? You don't have to apologize for But this is a common thing. It happens, you know, but that's really cool. Yeah. I um you're you're going to love it here in Denver because the biggest pow-wow in North America is here in March, actually, at the end of The month. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Okay. I didn't know that. >> It's sick. It's at the Coliseum. It's like a 4-day pow-wow. It's incredible. >> Yeah. >> All right. Good to

know. You're the guy, the events guy. Mr. Mayor, I'm going to come to you a little bit more. >> You need to know anything about Denver, you come to me. And I say that half Joking, but for the listeners of this podcast, I have another podcast called Real Good Denver where it's all about Denver stuff, which I'm having all my signals getting crossed now because we have to be in professional mode now. That's that's where we are because we're at the A-High Clubhouse and that's what we do. Um, so let's get into it. Um I

would love to hear kind of um your role over at Denver Ventures and kind of um what maybe a normal day looks like for You. >> Yeah. Um so I am an investment associate. I'm basically top of funnel for our preede all the way to series B. Um and we're journalist fund. So what I like to say is I pretty much see everything under the sun. I'm kind of the first touch point with all all of our founders. hop on initial calls, kind of just get a direction and a sense of who you are and

what your vision is, uh, and then bring it to my partners and we Go from there. >> So cool. That seems like such a fun job. I mean, it's probably very similar to what I'm doing as well. Just a big swath of a bunch of people doing a bunch of stuff. Right now, it's the beginning of March. I would say we're post openclaw hangover. >> Yep. you know, and now we're moving into whatever else agentic AI looks like for companies. So, I'd love to to hear your take like right now, tip of the spear, What

what are the deals that you are seeing coming in and maybe, you know, what is really interesting to you and what looks savory on um an opportunity right now? >> I mean, I think there's so much with AI right now. Uh there's an influx of that obviously and there should be. Um, I think we're finally getting towards this tipping point from the infrastructure layer that was necessary with an AI, everything with the models, the GPUs, All the rappers. And I think we're finally transitioning more so to companies that um are understanding what the consumer wants

and it's going to be more, you know, workflow automation, vertical AI integration. Uh it's going to be companies that completely take away a painoint where you don't even have to think about it anymore. Yeah. >> Um and so I say this because there's two distinctions. There was the one with the chat bots like Harvey is a great Example. Um absolutely still disrupting the law side of things, but I think that Harvey isn't going to be the winner takes all because we don't function as chat bots. Like humans don't like to interact, don't like to have

to always type. We just like things to happen in the background. And I think there's going to be a lot of companies that similar to Granola that kind of just take everything all the the miscellaneous mundane tasks that you Don't like to do just in the background just does it. You don't even have to think about it. You don't even have to like plan or try and like plug it in. It just like works seamlessly with all of your other integration and tools. And that is what is more exciting. And so that's the direction that

we're really looking for to see. >> Cool. Yeah. What's really sticky and what's >> I tried I tried granola, you know, it Was pretty good. Is there something I'm missing with that? It's like a noteaker, but it's not in the meetings, which is kind of sweet. So, it's kind of like the sneaky notetaker. >> Yes. Um, and then it integrates with all your CRM. But I think what's great about Granola as well is you can program it to be able to ask certain questions like during a meeting. So, if you're trying to get a sense

um if a founder has a certain moat, you can program it to to Be looking for those qualifying questions and it can help prompt certain questions if they say something and you want to expand on it. >> Um so, it's something like that that it's it's almost like your analyst notetaker, of course, but it it gives you more without even having a second thought. >> Yeah. >> Um which I think is powerful and it's it's something that I'm never going to Not use now because it's like a little sidekick. >> Totally. to to help enhance

all the meetings I take. >> Oh my gosh. That's also kind of like the the challenge of doing these in-person podcasts because I'm used to having like all my notes, all the notetaker stuff, all that, you know, ready to go. So, it's like, oh, can you can you talk to someone normal, Ryan? Are you can you pull that off? I'm like, >> I don't think I can. Let's talk about indigenous America. >> No, but it's it's very true. And um I think that's the other side of things. Zoom, Google Meets, it's efficient. obviously, but >>

there's nothing better than meeting someone in person. >> This episode is brought to you by a dangerous idea. It's called Reading. Specifically, the AI for Founders newsletter. 47,000 founders strong now. And it's the good stuff. No top 10 AI tools that will change your life written by someone who doesn't ship product. It's just real breakdowns of what's actually working in AI. who's raised, who failed, who pivoted, and which founders quietly built a million dollars in ARR while everyone else was arguing on X. It's written for people building with AI. Every week, you get tactical frameworks,

unfair advantages, breakdowns of real companies, and the Occasional existential question about whether your startup is intelligent or just well-branded. It's free, it's sharp, it might mildly offend your current workflow. Go to aforounders.co code and subscribe before your competitor does because the only thing worse than being replaced by AI is being replaced by a founder who reads. That's the newsletter at a forfounders.co. Now, back to the show. >> Yeah. >> And I feel like you we definitely miss that over the screen nowadays. Um, but it it is a reality when you step into a room and

you kind of have to hype yourself up of being like, can I talk to people? And then I look at my calendar, I'm like, I've been talking to people from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. all day, every day. Um, but it's it's different when you can just press on and press off versus standing in a room full of people. >> Totally. And to your point, maybe the direction of where what's exciting in AI is I was talking to a guy who h I've probably spoke to I don't know a dozen notetaker apps. Maybe you have

too >> and it was a new one and I was like, "Hey man, can you do this? Put this on the product roadmap." Because basically, you know, I'm doing interviews all day long or sales calls or whatever. And one thing that I find from listening to the podcast, one, I have a terrible voice. The other thing is that um I miss juicy nuggets sometimes because I'm trying to think of like where I want to take the conversation or whatever. So people will talk and you if you listen to this podcast, if you hear me say

like, "Yeah, that's really cool." That's basically I didn't even hear what the last two sentences the person said. You're planning ahead. >> Yeah. cuz I'm planning ahead, you know, which is, I think, common in Conversation. And also, it's a part of what I like about podcasting is that there's a a charming patina of amateurism, like it's people trying to wing it. But I was like, you know, I tried to build this tool and didn't have success. But I was like, you know, if you have a notetaker app, I want something that is like fact-checking me,

giving me opportunities. If somebody says something that's particularly interesting or dense, like to offer like Follow-up questions, like good journalistic questions, that would be really cool because now I can really let go. I'm not trying to like hold on to like the direction of this conversation. I can just be like in the conversation and if I if I stumble or whatever, then I can see all this stuff kind of being provided for me. >> Yeah. you know, so that might be anal analogous to like um other podcasts or other AI tools that are going to

be able To do like a little bit of like predictive generation and like really be helpful. >> Mhm. >> Um so that's cool to hear. Now, one thing that um is interesting about this place in time too is that if you're on X or you're building with four terminals open and you have two Mac minis with your open claw instances running, you feel like you're trying to catch up. There's a real like, oh my god, I can't Get enough done, which for me ends up being like 10 and 11 hour work days every day. Um

it's very fun. I love it. But also the the reassuring part is that I think it's like a fraction of 1% of Americans actually pay for an AI product right now. >> Yes. >> So we are still really early. Um how do you feel? Do you feel like there's pressure to get the the next thing? Like how how are you dealing with kind of This unbelievable pace that we're working at right now? Mhm. I think whenever we're looking at a new company and if we're we're staying on the narrative of AI, it we're looking for

is a does the technology work and b is there demand? And with that demand, you can have a lot of influx of customers, but the real key is retention. How long are people staying on your platform? Are there renewals? You know, how many times do they go on every single day or every Single month? Um because the reality is there's new tools every single day and you can get that premium trial and then you can move on to the next and the next day there's an integration for the exact tool that was going to charge

you know $7.99 and so for us you know AI has been amazing for the the margins but when you have too high of margins we're kind of questioning that because we're expecting you to have high inference costs and that's a tale to us saying that your Users are on your platform, they're using it actively and obviously that's like eating into your costs. So that's how we're kind of looking at it and I think that also plays into um you can make a lot of things with AI and that's what we're seeing right now. >> Yeah.

>> But do people ultimately want it? >> Yeah. because there's so many tools, but like a lot of people just want the basic functionalities done so that they can Take back more time for themselves. Uh, and I feel like this like overcrowding of tools is actually stressing people out a lot more than actually supporting them. Um, so that's another factor of, you know, what are people saying at the end of the day? Is this something they actually need or are you just trying to like shove it down their throats? Is it something that they're going

to want? >> Yeah. or you know what a lot of people do. I was like I'll just build my own Notetaker now. >> Exactly. >> You know, which is like I got pretty close to my noteaker and I was like I don't want to polish this up. Like just somebody I'll pay 10 bucks a month, you know, somebody make this for me. Um, but it's interesting because, you know, three years ago I spent 18 months and about 320,000 to get an MVP that was fantastic, but I had to go through two nefarious agencies To get

it done before I finally found the person that could build it. And then and then it was okay. >> Same software now cost me a week and 20 bucks. >> Yep. >> Which is amazing. >> It's staggering, you know. And so you know from your chair what I'd be worried about is like okay if the cost of software is essentially going to zero and anybody will be able to build Anything with any kind of idea like if you're making a bet and you guys are doing you said series B rounds and yeah I mean you're

making a big bet then in some cases like what is the assurance I mean is it it's the the distribution it's the engagement that like the brand loyalty that people are the companies I mean series B is obviously far different. But, you know, if you're looking at a seed company, like what do you want to see in a software company Right now that you know, somebody with a cloud account can't just knock off, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think um models are going to be everywhere already. Pricing has gone down. Um so model

is just like one aspect. Um I think to your your point, distribution is something we're obviously looking at in data. Do you have a moat in that industry somehow someway that you're Gathering more of that? Um >> is there defensible IP now? Is there >> there are companies trying to create that defensible IP but um politics and regulations say a bit different. Yeah. >> So tough to create IP around that. So we are looking more towards the distribution front of how are you going to get in front of people faster and why are people going

to stay with you at the end of the day. >> Yeah. Okay. Um What's the most successful distribution channel right now? How what companies are doing it? Well, >> I don't know that we actually don't have a set standard for for what's working. the best. Um I would say we've actually been kind of cautious around certain AI companies for this exact reason of things can kind of get get eaten pretty quickly. >> Yeah. >> Um at that preede seed stage, what we're really looking for um is some type of moat with the founder. >> So

for Denver Ventures, our whole thesis is around what we like to call founder DNA. So, we're looking for individuals that have had previous companies, have had previous big tech experience, AI, ML, uh things like that, or some type of channel experience. Um, >> and we found, you know, with those individuals, >> that is where the distribution comes from. Yeah. >> From their previous network. >> Um, and so that's what we're really digging into with the the people that we have. But that's an interesting question. I'll dig into it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, I would

love to get into your mind a little bit of how you're judging opportunities and deals. And so I I have this product that I've been kicking around for a while and I Want to pitch it to you. >> Oh, boy. Here we go. >> And then here how you'd think about it and how you would judge this unbelievable opportunity. I mean, between you and me right here, this this is a unicorn in the making. >> I'm telling you. I mean, we are at Ideas, the AI builder club in Denver. >> That's right. It's got a

great >> Unicorns are made. >> That's right. It's got a great AI story. It's It's got a TAM of at least How many Americans are there? 350 million. >> Every single American's going to need this. Okay. Okay. I I need to come up with a good name, but right now I'm going to call it Mailbox Allied Tech Supreme XLE LLC. >> Okay. Has a good ring to it. >> Yeah, it's pretty snappy. Um sorry. >> So what it does is it's a mailbox with AI. Okay. So what it does is when the mailman or person

mail person puts in The mail, it is going to scan all the mail, take a picture and then ascertain who the CEO is of that company and then send them emails from a swarm of a thousand AI agents. Like nasty emails about why are they sending mail. That's the first step. >> Okay. The second step, it's going to actually pulp the mail into like um like a a goo and then print like nice stationery and then write your mother uh a letter about a fun anecdote you Remember from childhood and how much you love your

mom and send it to her. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> That's the idea. >> Awesome. >> This this has been in development for a long time. >> It is mentally. >> Mentally. >> Okay. I'm still looking for partners on the hardware to help make this happen. Um but so you get a pitch. How do you begin kind of like um testing the deal or like gauging interest? >> Yeah. Um so initially I'm looking at your background. So I'm seeing Denver mayor. I'm like, "Wow, I'm impressed. This guy may >> Yeah. Um, I'm looking at, you

know, all the different podcasts that you have, your ability to be able to communicate, uh, your vision or just talk to people, which is a superpower, especially Nowadays. Um, and so checking out all of that, that's first stop shop because I want to see >> first stop is the founder. Even before the product, you'll be like product, I don't maybe I don't know that much about it, but >> first stop is the founder. Yeah. Especially for the preed seed stage. Now, if we get to the later stages, it's a different question. Obviously, >> diligence is

totally different. >> Economics. Exactly. Um, But the zero to one, it's all about the person. >> Yeah. >> So, if you can't sell me, how are you going to sell a team? >> Yeah. >> How are you going to sell a new customer? Especially when like everyone is just getting sold 24/7, 365. So, initially I'm looking at you. >> Um then I'll dig into the deal itself. Um, if you're more of a seed stage and You've raised previous funding, um, getting a sense of the the other investors on the cap table, understanding, you know, who

you've already kind of approached um, for that conversation and then ultimately looking at the the deal itself and um, back to our previous questionings, you know, is there data, is there some distribution, is um, there's some type of leverage that they have or is this like completely new, something I've never Even seen? Um, often times like if I don't know the space quite well, I will still hop on a call with a founder um, just to get to know them live as I can. Uh, and just kind of poke around, get a sense. It's not

like a a live pitch. You know, honestly, my favorite quick calls are not the ones that you go slide by slide. It's you just showing your excitement and kind of throwing vomiting your knowledge onto me because that shows me that you are all in that you Are super excited about this and it's been something you've been thinking about for a while. >> Cool. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know, the distribution part is really interesting. I I just my buddy Josh broke it down for me the other day. He where he said like,

you know, I will not entertain a deal and this dude's hilarious because he launched four companies last year. M >> he's like if it doesn't have Distribution on the cap table, if it doesn't have defensible IP um and if it if I don't have domain expertise in that, I'm not getting involved. >> Oh, interesting. >> Which I thought was like that's a great idea and makes it simple. If people are like looking for checks, it's like dude, I don't know anything about mailboxes. That's why they come to me because I know about these mailboxes. Yeah,

>> it slash AI sending or real mail Sending. Um, so for for founders, let's say I I think usually the passion is going to be there if they're if they're showing up in your office. You know, they're going to have that domain expertise. Um, and you see a lot of really cool products, especially in AI, that are super niche. You know, what I'm really interested in now is like these like pre-digital databases that are unstructured that you're like, dude, like this is we can capitalize on this File cabinet in a major way. There's a lot

of cool opportunity there. Um, so they've got that um, defensible IP. I don't know if if you can have that. If you can in some way, great. But I think a lot of uh, founders that I talked to working in like founder marketing for years and years is that distribution is the tough one. >> You know, so if you've got a great network that you can find design partners and your network is, you know, Enterprise, great because one license might set the whole company good for a year or whatever. But if you're not, if it's

B toC or if it's like B2B but you don't really have that network, um that's a really interesting like kind of validation point of like should I pursue this if I don't have personal distribution in this area and it's on the cap table which is to say maybe a question for you. Are you seeing founders come in that say, "I've got the The the technology. I've got the the domain expertise, but I'm actually bringing in this person as like a distribution co-founder and we're giving them 10% and they're going to have a stake. This is

like kind of like what celebrities do all the time, right?" Yeah. Do you see a lot of that? >> Honestly, no. But I do wish there was more of that. I would say it is typically a part of their plan to be able to hire somebody after the race for That position, but I would enjoy seeing more co-founders already in that mix because then it makes the investment way more promising from the beginning. Um, what we typically see is, you know, founders that went to school together or had, you know, previous companies together or worked

at the same company, which is also a very strong standpoint because it it shows you've worked with them before. Um, but no, not on the distribution front. I would say they Mostly will try and find an investor to be that partner in the beginning before they can add on another co-founder. >> Yeah. And then they're kind of going to a creator with their hand out like, "Please help me." >> Yes. >> Please help me. >> Yes. Um, but I think the the other part that I do look through and especially with this AI boom is

do you need VC Funding especially at the preedec seed side of things and with all these inference costs going down and whatnot. It is a big question. Um, >> like if you can bootstrap your business to a million ARR, you know, cut that in half, 500,000 AR, like I I think founders need to take a step back and register what success looks like for them because we are an amazing opportunity for people to make millions of dollars with barely any technical Background. you know you the opportunities are endless but VC isn't always the best answer.

>> Yeah. >> So I think at the earliest stages founders also should register that of you know just because you can raise VC doesn't mean you should. >> Yeah. Totally. Now more than ever you know I think it goes down to to lifestyle too because I mean if you're the type of person and maybe people are A split of this where you're like I have a lifechanging vision. I need 60 million to put this into play. Mhm. >> You're like, "Okay, well, let's let's see how you can get there." But then venture capital is there

for you, is there for that. But like if you're finding like these little siloed data sets for little, you know, microcosm of like people that will you can just take over the whole industry, it's like why, you know, like go do it, >> you know? And this is kind of like maybe the the predicament musicians are finding too because, you know, it used to be that like the labels were the distribution. you you get signed, you get a deal, you know, then they can like put you into Target and whatever. But now it's like labels

aren't are are barely have a function right now because it's like it's up to the artist to find the distribution first >> and then they're just picking up on Trends so that they'll go find, you know, the the newest sound on on Tik Tok and they're offering them a check. They're like, why would I give you 80% of my revenue when I I'm hitting right now by myself? It's very similar. So, you know it. What does a conversation look like with a founder? If you're like, I don't think you need us. >> I'll just be

straight up. >> Yeah. >> And I'll explain. And like that can be Difficult to hear, but it's not my choice. They can go to another VC if they'd like, but it's more so of the questioning of why. Like, why truly do you want VC money? Um, and some of them honestly were just like, I thought it was just the next step. >> Yeah. like I'm seeing these other founders. I had a friend that just raised 3 million and he started a company 3 months ago. >> Um and so it just seems like the trend And

um right now there's a lot of capital flowing around. So it's quite easy to be able to get um money for your investments. And so that's what I've been seeing. But if you kind of take a step back and you just ask the question of do you really need this right now? >> Yeah. People might take a step back and be like, "Well, I'm I'm doing just fine." Maybe not. >> Maybe not. Yeah. And there is just so much aura on Bootstrap founders. >> Oh my god. >> I was talking to uh what was his

name? softwarefinder.com. Bootstrap. They triple triple double doubled in four years. And he they're doing like 30 million in revenue annually. I'm like, "Bro, >> yeah. >> What?" >> Amazing. >> Just keep it that way. >> Just keep it moving. Oh yeah. He's Keeping it moving. But >> that was a fun conversation because he was also like broken. He had recovered but he was like December 2025 was a few weeks ago. He was like I had a major thing and issue and I was kind of proddding a little bit as one does. >> I was like

yeah bro I was like that's like four weeks ago man you okay? And he's like I think so. But um also encouraging to hear that like like Biggie said more money more problems is real. you know, even that kind of accelerated growth, you know, in a few years going from zero to 400 employees, it's like that that could break you, too. >> Mhm. >> You know, I I would I would like to feel that flavor of breaking. It seems like a a particularly delicious kind of suffering. >> That is such an interesting way to put

It. I cannot say I'm in the same boat. Mhm. >> Um but yeah, being a founder is one of the craziest things you could ever decide to do in life. >> Yeah. >> It just doesn't make sense that all odds are stacked against you. >> It's really, really hard. >> It's Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Very difficult. But the people that are In it for a bigger reasoning, they have a stronger why. The ones that are obsessed over it, >> you can't help it. >> Yeah. >> You're kind of doomed. I mean, that's the one thing

I I do love about this show is I I get to feel a little camaraderie. And when I can sense somebody's like suffering, I want to get inside it so I can pat them on the back a little bit, but also alleviates my Own. I'm like, I know, man. It's so hard. It's horrible sometimes, but what what other choice do we have? We have to do it. It's compel. Um yeah, it's it's a crazy business, but so fun. Especially right now, I just feel super reinvigorated in like the last 12 months. It's just like wow.

It's the speed is a little overwhelming, but boy, the opportunity is just endless. >> Mhm. I also love how many communities have come together because of it. >> Like I mean, where we're sitting today is a great example of it. Um, and the willingness of people to be able to go back to to the first brick and be able to explain it to somebody so that they can start and they can see how fast everything happens. Like I, you know, two two companies have already come out of here that I've been looking at that are

now raising like significant capital. And if anyone comes in, they're like, I don't I don't even know what AI Is, you know? I didn't even know what it stood for until last week. and they'll just sit down, they're like, "Hey, let me let me download Claude for you." >> I know. >> And I I think that was missing a lot. Um, and so having that sort of community element has kind of >> reinvigorated everybody. >> And shout out to Danny, man. Danny Newman has put this together. And this is really unique. It's really special. The,

you know, a year ago there was like 10 of us at Danny's coffee shop over off KFax >> and I showed up kind of begrudgingly. And I was like, I'll go, but like I don't really do the meetup stuff, but it's like three blocks from my house, so sure. And then, you know, then I found out it was Danny Newman, who's an absolute Denver legend. You want to talk about the mayor? >> He's the mayor. >> He's the guy. >> I'm the deputy mayor. >> I'm just waiting for his uh his hikes. Everyone has been

telling me about his mountain founder hikes. And so I've been waiting. >> I know about those. >> Yeah. >> I'm not on the short list. How'd that happen? I'm going to have to ask what's going on with that. But I mean, he's preserved some Denver landmarks that um Were critical to my childhood and development. So, I will love him forever for that. And this place. So, it starts as a a meetup, you know, every other Wednesday, you know, a year ago and half a dozen, 10 people showing up like, "Hey, did you know you could

do this?" and just like it's kind of like right when kind of some of the vibe coding tools were starting to take root to 12 months later I think there's like 400 people on that list and like this place Is there's 150 people here every Wednesday. >> It's so cool. >> Yeah. >> And like you said, everyone is like super supportive and and like um welcoming and helpful and you know the WhatsApp chat is amazing. It's so cool >> and it's an overall sentiment of let's break things. >> Yeah. >> And we'll figure it out.

>> Totally. And I think that's powerful when you get a lot of people okay at failing altogether. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You're going to move 10 times faster. >> 100%. And then like how did you do that? You're like, "Dude, let me show you." Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. And then Yeah. It just It's It's pretty cool. The I I've been waiting to demo. I haven't demoed in a couple months because I did get a little bit blasted. My last demo People were like, "What about this, this, this, and this?" It's like I kind of

got I kind of got jacked. Hey, speak of the devil. Um Uh, so, so yeah, shout out to Danny for this great place. Um, how about you, Carson? Um, what's your experience with like projects, building companies, building anything? >> Yeah. Um, backstory on me. Um, my dad was an entrepreneur himself. So, I kind of grew up, you know, living under the The man, the myth, the legend. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, I just remember very early on, very late nights at the office. Uh, I'm one of three, one of four kids. So, we all

would just be there while my parents were were grinding late at night. And so, I think I always had this entrepreneurial sense. Um, loved it growing up. Shark Tank was like my go-to. I wanted to watch on everything. >> Who's your favorite? >> And why is it Barbara? >> It's not Barbara. >> Oh, okay. >> No. Um, I like Mr. Wonderful. >> Me, too. >> I He's just so direct. He says it how it is and he gets the deal he wants and I think there's so much power and confidence in that. >> Yeah. >>

But that's probably the the tough pick. >> Nice. >> Um but yes, so ended up, you know, going to school, uh studying finance, wanted to to understand kind of the ins and outs on that side of things. Um but I knew I wanted to go into startup VC space. >> Yeah. >> Um so ultimately what went into one startup, it was more into the the energy side of things. um did that for about a year and a half. Loved it. Learned a lot about regulations, about government and And how that can affect a company within

itself. Um and an international company. Um so got a sense of working with teams from many different regions and how cultures can kind of impact the overall startup itself. Um and then I went into to VC. Absolutely adored what I was doing doing what I am doing now today. Yeah. >> Um, went to the dark side, tried banking for a little bit just to get a sense, but I did it out in San Francisco, found Myself at more VC events than I did banking and I was like, "Okay, I understand where I got to go."

And so, ultimately, I found my way back and don't see myself leaving. >> Amazing. Amazing. And, um, just to talk about you personally, I've only known you a couple of weeks maybe, but like you've done a a big uh credit to like this community too. like you're all over the place. So like I don't forgot how we were introduced and so we get on a call And I was particularly manic that day. I don't know why sometimes I get that way but >> but you know you said something that really stuck with me because my

daughter was in college studying finance and I was like hey you know um she's the same she's got the entrepreneurial spirit you know she was saved by co did I tell you the story? >> No. >> Just a quick quick uh uh branch here. So When she was at CO hits what March 2020 I think she was in sixth or seventh grade and she had created a scrunchie business. Um so she she was like dad how should I do the scrunchie business? I was like well what you're not going to do is make scrunchies. I

was like what you should do is get some different fabrics and go down there and do pre-orders and then dependent on demand then you make the scrunchies. So, she went to school and I think she it was Like $2 for one, $3 for two, and she sold like $200 worth of scrunchies. >> That's awesome. >> I was like, "Dude, yes." I was like, "That's awesome." Okay. Okay. Let's go get What do we need? A sewing machine. Let's go get a sewing machine. So, we went to get a sewing machine. Got one. Come back, get a

little tutorial going. How hard could making a scrunchie be? Turns out it is not easy to take fabric and put like a thing in there and like Do a circle like that. It's really hard. And so there was, this is like, you know, like February 23rd, 2020. And like me and her, I'm getting pissed cuz now I got to try and make scrunchies. And and she's making them, but it's slow going. And she's like, "Dad, I have all of these these pre-orders." I was like, "Well, here's what you can do. You just tell them it's

going to take some time. There's some manufacturing delays. You know, like we just we'll just we'll just Bang these out. We'll we'll bang them out. We'll get through it." So that it was like a week later it was like schools canled for co and she was just kind of like >> oh my gosh >> kept her a couple hundred bucks. >> That is awesome. That is a top tier story. >> So so you know so she had a little taste of the entrepreneurial bug early and she she and her brother used to like make a

Mint shoveling sidewalks back when we used to it used to snow here believe it or not. >> So anyway so she was like that. So, but and she's studying finance and she has interest in VC and so you know I asked you like hey what what is the best thing that she should be doing right now and you're like she needs to be AI native and and after that I scheduled a weekly meeting on Wednesdays where she and I sit down and I just show her tools and Show her how to use it and really

talk a lot about what does it mean to be AI native like how are you approaching problems with a AI first kind of attitude and then that's led her to build this like really cool fitness app and she's building like all these tools. >> Amazing. >> Yeah. So, I want to thank you for that. >> Of course. Um, yeah, I think everyone should and everyone talks about it and I'm sure every single founder on this Podcast has some sort of AI uh integrated. Yeah. >> But it is the future and >> I think people can

get scared about it. They can be nervous about it. Um, but ultimately if you just sit down for an hour and just start messing around with it and just talking to it. Yeah. >> Like you will be able to see how fast and how easy a lot of these things are. Um, and adoption is just like that. But it's staying on your toes because of all The tools that we've been talking about >> 100%. Um, so and then a career in VC. Now I I think you're unique at least to what I've seen where you

are very community um involved. you know, that might be like a new wrinkle to like VC and maybe it's because it is so frothy and there's a lot of competition and you know, they're kind of looking for those kind of folks. Um, so what is kind of like expectation on your side as far as like what are your deliverables? Is it's Like you're doing top of funnel. Do you need to be like finding like those 10 products? Is there a little bit of pressure for you to like get it in the door? >> Of course.

I mean, like any other job, um, it's a glorified SDR. Uh, but the community side of things, I think that is just a little bit more innate to who I am. I've always kind of valued community. I mean, everyone can say your your network is your net worth, but I Just think that um >> shaping a new community and especially since I'm new here to Denver is going to be everything for me moving forward. It's people that are introducing me not only just to my my friends um to new companies to new co-workers in the

future. Uh and I just appreciate meeting people and I think you know I'm an extrovert. I just want to be in the room. Uh and I think we've missed out a lot on that and people are starting to Realize how much they're they miss that day-to-day interaction. So I think that's just me. I like to to go out, see how I can help, see what I can learn >> because, you know, there's only so much you can do behind closed doors. >> 100%. You know, that's a that's another thing that I think my daughter's really

kind of figuring out, too, is that like, you know, it is really important to like and it's the fun part of business really like how can I really help you? And like If I can make introductions to people all the time, it's just like, okay, tip of the tongue, you need to talk to this person, this person, this person. I'm doing it all the time. And then you feel kind of like a hub where people can be like, "I don't know who I need to talk to, but I'll just call Ryan to see what's up."

You know, and I'll be like, "Ah, man. I got you. Actually, I talked to this guy two days ago." Like blah blah blah. You know what I mean? And It's just it's a fun place to come from a position of giving because it's like it's a it's a driver, you know? It's energizing. >> Exactly. >> It feels good. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I mean, I just I caught up with an old friend and I actually connected him with his current girlfriend and they've been together for seven years and they're about to get married and

he's Like, I I thank you every single day for that. And something so simple that I just was like, you guys think I think you would work well together. And like that changed everything for them. And so I think it goes a long way. >> It does. It's the best. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Cool. Okay. So, >> but to your point with uh VC and being frothy, I do agree and I think VC is Changing a lot and I think that there's money in a lot of places and at the end of the day,

I think you the big names do say a lot on a cap table, but ultimately you want people that you can trust. You want people that you can call in the middle of the night when shit's hitting the fan. >> Yeah. You want people that, you know, may or may not be on your board, but are going to take care of you and be there by your side. And so, I don't know. I Think founders should also take that seat of who do you actually enjoy talking to, who's believing in you, but who's going to

put you in your right place of, you know, telling you when you should probably put on a different hat or think about something different like strategically. Um, and I think there's a lot more power in founders hands nowadays. Um, that they should probably consider that because you don't want to be backed by people that don't truly Believe in you >> or that you just don't vibe with. There's different like there's a different energy for different people. I can say that I've probably had like four five people that I would consider not not mentors because I

there wasn't a relationship like that, but I'm like I want to be like that. >> Yeah. And that's four or five out of thousands, you know, where they have something that I'm like that you're Doing it the way I want to do it. Like, let me model myself after you. If you know, Denver Venture has like kind of a a thread that runs through it. What are those attributes of like um the partners and the people that work there? Like what what would people expect as a founder with working with those folks? real like before

I started working with Denver Ventures, each of the partners came to me and told me that each of them are so individually different and they Wanted to make sure that I was okay with working with people that, you know, might butt heads sometimes and might, you know, they're all just their own individual character and I adore that. And so they show up as who they are every single day. Um, you know, some of my f my partners are a little bit more direct, the others are a little bit more emotional. Um, and it all just

ties in. So, I guess dayto-day what you could expect is they're going to give you Their phone number. >> And when things go wrong, give them a call and everyone's going to put their head together and and figure things out. And when things are going right, give them a call and we'll go grab beers. Like, it's I don't know. It's a very human firm that I'm at. Um, everyone's just they say how it is and you know we grow and we evolve and we improve with one another. >> They're earning that Denver name. >> They

are. And exactly to your point, the people here um >> they and all of my partners have been here for for some time and so I would say they all kind of bring >> that energy cool >> to the firm as a whole. >> Amazing. And you're a great example of that because again like folks that are listening to this probably just listen to the the podcast I did with Wildwood because that was an introduction you Gave me to Rita. I talked to Rita. She's like you should talk to Jesse. I I had an interview

with Jesse and I was like Rita can you talk to my daughter too? And she's like sure. You know so it's like that fast. That's like it it's um >> the ripples. >> The ripples. Yeah. And it's it's great because then it I mean honestly the other thing about Denver is it's not that big, you know. You can kind of feel the edges. I mean, even, you know, the The the company that I had acquired last year, we'd worked with 900 founders. So, like at that point, you think about all the like sales calls and

people I talked to. You start to reach the edge of the founder universe kind of. You're like, "Oh my gosh, people start doubling back." >> I had somebody today that was like, "Hey, we're with XYZ and we're interested if you could help us." I was like, "Oh man, I worked with that guy Two years ago. >> He owes me 20 bucks. Like, hell yeah, come on back." You know, which is really cool. you start to feel that the edge in the perimeter and you start to see how everybody's connected, >> you know. Um it's really

neat. Um now, one thing that Jesse was talking about that I thought was interesting is we were talking about the founders, the attributes of the founders and kind of ultimately if they're pitching VC, they Have to have the ability to sell. And there's different sales tactics, you know. So, in your opinion, what are what are some valuable attributes a founder can have when they're like presenting a deck? You know, of course, they have to mention mailboxes. >> This is gold standard, but what else do you look for? Or do you notice that you're like, "That

was good." >> We're always looking for what I like to call like the dichotomy Of man. like you're bold, but you're also pragmatic. >> And you know, you're confident, but you're also humble. And so I think overall excitement andor interest in a specific sector that kind of just rings through as you're you're giving your pitch. You know, you can kind of sense when someone wants to solve this issue so badly that they are going to do anything on this earth to make it happen. And that just like that's Nothing that you say directly. that's just

how you're saying it comes through, >> but it's giving examples of how you're you're doing it. You know, how you're showing up dayto day. Um, one of my favorite questions I always ask is, "What have you done this past week?" >> And it stops a lot of them in their tracks and then some of them like light back up and they're like, "So, I got this this and they're so excited to tell me everything that they did and like What that's going to do like to cascade for the rest of their business." And then there's

other people that they're like, "Well, like I've hopped on a lot of investor calls and you know, I I talked like with a few new co-founders potentially." And then that kind of makes you think of like, well, are you putting your energy and prioritizing the right things at this time? Because that 0ero to one is so so difficult. and there is a level of prioritization and And confidence of you being able to to actually accomplish what you're setting out to to do. >> Do you do you get a lot of kind of Shark Tank razledazzle?

>> No. Um, honestly, I I hop on quick calls and it's more so just to get to know the person. So, rarely do I have them actually come and just pitch me. >> Just cold pitch would be crazy. >> It's more so like who are you? What have You done in the past? What are you doing now? >> Like what gets you interested? And I I'm just trying I'm just trying to get to know the person. >> Yeah. >> Um and then we can go more into the business itself. >> It's cool. Yeah. My um

I'm pretty darn good at sales. >> I love that attribute largely because I'm a zero to1 guy and you need that Like you develop like ability to connect and relate and sell when you're going 0ero to1 because every it's it's so important. But, you know, working in technical startups for so long that like there is a lot of spectrumy people that are not selling, you know what I mean? >> And with and I mean that with all due respect, you know, we're all on the spectrum somewhere. >> Some people socially are in a different place,

>> you know, and and those are those are some of my best friends. Um, but they they're not necessarily selling or trying to like um have fun. Like there's a certain like um obviously I'm a podcaster so like there's a certain sport to conversation that I enjoy um that some people don't. Um but I think what you're talking about too is that when you have somebody who's so confident and that's the attribute a lot of time of technical founders where They're like no like this is so simple why don't you see it? you know, but

then have the humility to like understand that like they they know that they need something else and they're able to go get that whether it's with like, you know, financial partners or maybe it's a co-founder or whatever. Of course, Y Combinator is just famous for they want to see co-founders. They want to have that like one-two combo of like the sales guy, the technical guy, you know, Because it works out so successfully. Um so, so that's good, you know. is are there are there speakers or let's say um founders that you feel like really exhibit

the the a great personality for like you're looking for attributes. So for example, Jesse was like he liked Sam Alman, he liked Steve Jobs, and he liked some other guy that I forget. Are there people or founders or other um examples that you could point to to be like this Guy does it well or this gal does it well? I would just point to one of not a not a plug here, but one of our portfolio companies. Uh, Boom Supersonic Jets. Um, Blake is an incredible spokesperson. >> Cool. >> But he's also incredibly technical. I

mean, he's he's built supersonic jets. Um, but his ability to sell that vision and get other people to come along with that mission. Um, my first day when I Was starting out with Denver Ventures, I just get to be in a room hearing from him and I was immediately sold. Like it was just this presence, this like overall like you're just locked into everything that he is saying. Um, and there was a lot of things that I didn't understand. I'm not a previous engineer, so I didn't quite understand the technical aspect, but he would play

around with it of like this is what we're developing, but like in layman's Terms, like now you're coming along for the ride. Um, so things like that, I hate to say it's just a vibe, but I think you can get a get a sense. >> Yeah. Well, that that sounds like just sheer talent. Some people Yeah, man. They It's like they they can speak at a very high level and then dumb it down to my kindergarten level and I'm like, I'm on board. >> This is amazing. Yeah, I love those guys too. Um I think

that like um speaking is Like uh I think there's talent. I think it's a a certain domain of um intelligence in the way that like geospatial is like also some people are really smart in space. I get lost in my own city as the mayor all the time. I'm really terribly dumb in that kind of stuff. But like speaking is something that there's like um it's like an instrument or a a voice that I think you can find um mastery if you work at it, if you want to. And the people that just Have that,

it's it's almost an honor to watch him speak, >> you know. It's great. >> Carson, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much. >> Of course. >> It's great. Um denver ventures.co is where you can see the firm. Where is the best place for people to connect with you personally online? Uh, LinkedIn works out great. Okay. I always like when people give a little message if you Just connect with me. >> Probably not going to answer because I don't know who you are. >> Yeah. >> Uh, so send a send a little message

explaining who you are and and whatnot. >> So you came from the podcast and I want to offer my support for the mailbox startup idea. >> Easy. >> They're in. They're in. Um, great. Thank you so much. >> Of course. Thank you for having me. This episode is brought to you by Most, the AI first growth engine trusted by iconic startups like calm, Robin Hood, Reddit, Uber, and Google. Mobst is a digital full-ervice mobile first marketing agency that helps companies to scale and become category leaders. Whether you're finding product market fit or ready to accelerate

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