Perpétuo Para Público Frio: Criando VSLs Que Vendem Até 100K/Dia | Johab Alves - SDE #169

I'm going to say something here that's a bit sensitive, but I want you to give me your honest opinion, okay? And please, correct me if I'm wrong. And maybe this is going to be a cold bucket of water for some experts out there. But guys, I'm not here to please anyone, I'm here to speak the absolute truth. Real talk, I've made that mistake, you know? Sure. I've heard about this on the podcast before. Yeah, I once worked with an expert who... well, he's a public figure. No way! You worked with him? It's a fact. If

any expert plugs in these five funnels right here, they can easily build a seven-figure business out of it. Any expert at all. and what are those funnels? Let's go: the first funnel is the... It doesn't matter if you have killer copy if people aren't even stopping to watch It. Nowadays, we're constantly fighting for people's clicks every single second. So what actually stops the scroll? It's the format. Johab Alves. At just 17 years old, he entered the digital products market as a junior copywriter. Today, at 23, he's a partner with Filippe Holzer. He works as a

lead copy strategist for Guto Galamba's operations and has already generated over nine figures in sales through VSLs and launches. And there's pure gold right here, man, which is this: a good lead today isn't like what you see in the black market, for instance. It's not some mind-blowing lead like a brand-new scientific discovery or whatever. Usually, that style of lead just doesn't convert well when working with an expert. There are actually a few lead tricks out there. There's the gift trick, and then There's another one which is the editing trick. If you work with experts, you'll

know what I'm about to say. The ads that convert the highest are usually the ones that... He waited four hours of podcasting just to drop that one, right? Today, I'm having a conversation with Johab Alves. Guys, Johab started out in the digital marketing industry when he was just 17 years old as a junior copywriter. And today, at 23, he's a partner with Filippe Holzer in a digital products operation that has already generated over 500 million reais. He also serves as a lead copy strategist for Guto Galamba's business, where he helps build offers and funnels that

bring in eight figures every month. So, despite being so young, he has tons of hands-on experience and has worked with all kinds of funnels for different experts. In recent years, he began Specializing heavily in VSL funnels. And that's exactly why, today, in this episode, he showed us his entire step-by-step process for building VSLs for digital products completely from scratch. From choosing an expert who actually has real potential to scale, to building a strong One Belief, and if you don't know what that is, definitely watch this episode, because it's a super critical concept for closing sales

in a VSL. He also covers which lead formats perform best for digital product VSLs, plus a ton of other golden nuggets, like VSL editing hacks, conversion rate optimization tactics, and so much more. As you know, the podcast went pretty long, so if this is something you're interested in, I know you're gonna love it. And if you're new here to the show, this podcast is called Scaling Secrets. Here, we bring on top-tier guests who have scaled their offers and scaled their Businesses, so that you at home can walk away with one, two, or maybe even three

actionable tips if the episode is good, apply them to your business, and scale it too. This podcast was created by VTurb. If you don't know VTurb yet, it's a specialized video hosting platform built specifically to boost your VSL conversion rates. Today, over 11,000 businesses trust VTurb to host their videos and maximize conversions. The biggest companies in Brazil and top brands worldwide use VTurb to lift their video sales conversions. And if you want to know why they're doing it, there's a quick video linked in the description and popping up on screen where I show you seven

quick optimizations you can make to your VSL using VTurb to boost your conversion rates today. So if you run a VSL, sales video, or webinar, basically any video designed to Make a sale—check out the video down in the description, because your conversion will go up and you'll make more money. It's 100% free, and you'll immediately see simple steps you can take today to increase your conversions. They're straightforward, but don't underestimate them, because they truly work—otherwise, I wouldn't have recorded that video in the first place. The link is down in the description. But enough talking, alright

guys? Let's dive right into the episode here. Please welcome, Johab Alves. So man, welcome, Johab, to the VTurb podcast. Welcome, brother. Thanks, man. Dude, do people confuse you a lot with Jorrab? Like, is that common in your life? Yeah man, it's common. Like, just yesterday I took an Uber here in Floripa, and the woman started calling me Jorrab. Like: "Is everything okay, Jorrab?" Jorrab? Yeah, Jorrab... But then I joke, right, that the H is just there for decoration, you get it? So it's actually Johab, normal. Do you know where that name comes from? Man, there's

a very curious story behind my name. Oh, really? What is it? like, Well, I was raised by my grandmother, right? My grandmother raised me. And then, man, she found out she was going to have her first grandchild, which is me. She was with a truck driver, like taking a trip with a truck driver. And then the guy turned to her and said: "why don't you give him a biblical name? Oh, what name? Name him Johab, it's a beautiful name." And it stuck. In other words, my name came from a truck driver's suggestion, get it? Awesome,

man. Mine is also biblical, João Campos. Actually, just João, right? But man, thank you so much, alright? For showing up. You're the first Johab I've interviewed and maybe, right guys, possibly the last, I don't know. Who knows if there's another one standing out in the digital market, right? But dude, you're only 23 years old and you've been working in the info-products market, from what we talked about, for seven years. Yes. So you started out when you were 17, turning 24 this year, alright guys? And, damn, you already had an absurd revenue back there, right? We

were talking here, right guys, that he works at the agency. Does the agency have a name or no? Yeah, it's GH Group. GH Group? Yeah, GH group. Like the growth hormone? Yeah, something like that. And guys, he works over at GH Group, which is Holzer's operation. And you did a lot of launches there, right? Like, over 500 million reais in revenue has already passed through the whole ecosystem there. You joined as a junior copywriter, today you're a partner in the operation- right So, you know those young guys, folks, who start out wanting to make money

and just work themselves to death? Well, this right here is the actual result for them after seven full years, alright? Man, I'm almost calling you Jorrab take it easy, man. Almost. Like, I almost... It's fine, be at peace And then for some time now, after all those results with launches and doing a bunch of things, you started diving deeper and deeper into VSL funnels. And dude, today you basically do that, besides being a strategist partner in the Operation, you also write copy and do a bunch of things, right? And man, today I want to talk

to you, okay? I think it's interesting content to generate for the people at home, where I really want you to explain to us how you monetize experts and how you actually, like, make them generate real money. And more specifically, okay? One thing you said at lunch that I found very interesting was your tree analogy, that you explained to me right there. so, explain to the folks out there what that tree thing is real quick. Just so they understand, because I want to talk about that, but tell us how the expert is a tree and all.

Alright bro. It's because... in my view, what happens? The expert is a tree, right? And the tree's role is to bear fruit. If the tree Doesn't bear fruit, it gets cut down right there. And when I see an expert, I don't see them as a tree that gives just one fruit. I mean, Imagine you have an apple tree and you can only pick one or two apples from it. It doesn't make sense. When you have a tree that is a constant fruit generator, it can produce endless fruits, right? Endless, endless. And the expert is basically

that, right? If you take an expert, and there are some criteria that define whether or not this expert will be a fruitful tree, we can definitely talk about that here. But when I understand this whole thing, I can really see leverage points in the expert to generate the amount of fruit I think is necessary to get from them, you see? From generating just one single apple to picking endless apples, you know? Yeah. I found that very interesting, man, like, that vision that we can monetize them in several different ways, right? So I want to talk

a bit about that with you, because for the people watching at home, there's a lot of the direct response crowd, hardcore VSL right there, you know? There's the launch crowd coming in too, more so now, but few people have the full picture. That, man, I can actually place a VSL on the front-end, a webinar on the back-end. And I honestly think that the people making the most money right now, in 2026, are the ones doing that: taking an expert, a coach, a creator, or an influencer, and building that whole product chain around them and just

going full steam ahead. So, I want to talk about that with you. But before that, brother, I want you to tell me, a bit about your opinion on the info-products market, okay? Because what's happening right now? I was telling you over lunch that, in my view, the info-products market is now talking more and more about this VSL business, with more people doing it. You yourself teach that at Monster Day, which is your immersion event over there, right? Yeah, with Holzer over there. With Holzer. And... And yeah, but you did a lot of launches, and now

we talked and you told me you were seeing this demand, right man? So I wanted you to explain to the people at home, what is your view on what's happening now in 2026 with this VSL funnel business. I don't know if you have any other insights that I don't know, that maybe I didn't ask you, but the conclusion we reached back at lunch, for those of you who obviously weren't there with us, is that this whole thing was growing insanely fast, and we were like: "Man, but who's actually leading this market?" and so on. We

started reflecting on a few things. And I don't know what you think, man, if it really is that. Man, that's it. And there's even a curious point with me regarding VSLs, because I entered the digital market through the appeal of VSLs, you know? Oh really? Back then, like, I did Copycamp, that whole story of core copy. Transcribing copy by hand. I remember watching Beto's launch from Empiricus, then I think in CPL two he said: "Look, if you want to learn copy, you have to transcribe." I Took the guy's entire launch, paused it, and transcribed his

CPLs right there. And then... I even entered a contest and won back then with João Bogado, about VSLs, you know? Ah, little João, cool. I worked with him at Empiricus. Great guy. Then I won a contest right there, and... and my whole background pointed to that, you see? so I could be a VSL copywriter right there. So, like, Rocky Vega, John Ford, anyway, I consumed all of that. And that was when I....met Holzer, right? And returning a bit to this VSL question, why do I say it started like that? One of the first VSL projects

I participated in was in.... 2021, 2022, with Maíra Cardi. I wasn't the senior copywriter on the project, but I was involved right there In the- Did you work with Rafa? with Rafa...? Rafael Rebolla? Yeah. Yes. dude... man, If I said it wrong, I'm sorry. I know you're going to watch this. I don't think it's Rebolla, man. It's Rebolla, it's Rebolla. Yeah, I call him Rafa, so I don't- Man, I talked to him here today. Rafael is Rebolla. Yeah, so man... Yeah, Rafael Rebolla. Big hug, Rafa. Big hug, Rafa. I started working with him later. Back

then I was a Traffic Manager. Ah, cool. And so, it was the first experience I had seeing a VSL that generates like 200 thousand a day. Holy shit. It was Maíra Cardi's back then. Way back then... cold traffic? Cold traffic Really? yeah, cold. Like, it wasn't because she was famous and had all that social proof. It was the VSL that was actually good. The VSL was good. Obviously, when you work with an expert, the level of how famous they are influences it a lot, right? Like, it influences it big time. And she's nationwide level, right?

She was on Big Brother, so damn. Exactly. But the Creatives were also very good. What people talk about today regarding format, hook, back then we were already looking at it. There's even a- But man... go ahead, speak. There's even a guy, today he's my partner, Bruno, I think he's going to watch this podcast, he ran the creative side over there and he already had that vision of... But man, why did, like, why Did it take so long then, bro? Like, last year, 2025, Ícaro de Carvalho came here on the podcast, guys. It's going to pop

up on the screen. And he said: "Brazil is hostage to launches, I don't know what" and so on. He threw a copy line there. And then, what did I understand? I understood that Erico came, did launches, everyone did launches, made a lot of money, worked out great, awesome. But it's not just that, there's more when it comes to building a business. And then he said VSLs were really cool, and so on. And then, that's kind of obvious, right? That we can, as you said, plug several funnels into the expert, but people didn't really seem to

have much awareness of it. And then, if you guys were already doing it, if there were people, me too, Right? I was also doing VSLs back in 2018, like eight years ago, right guys? and why just now, man? In 2025, 2026, why is it only now that people are talking about this, or do you not know? Man, I have a theory about that. What is it? I don't know. So, let's go. The digital market became really famous because of launches, right? Totally. It was Erico Rocha running all of that over there. But then it started

to drop. The results from launches started dropping. That doesn't mean launches don't work, okay guys? They work like crazy, they work insanely well and they always will. But VSL, I understand it was a type of information that was very focused on the folks deeper in the digital marketing funnel. It was the crowd that studied more, .like, a more hardcore copy style, So to speak, you know? More technical? More technical, exactly Not as creative. Exactly. And then what I realize is the following: part of that very technical crowd, those hardcore copywriters, started plugging into experts and

started generating results. And then some strategists, like Holzer himself, let's use him as an example. We plugged a VSL into some of our clients, it generated results, and then this level of information that look, there's a new funnel, like a new funnel that generates insane results, you don't need to have an audience, you don't need to be super famous to generate results. And then it's a type of information that is reaching.. The top of the market funnel, so to speak, you know? Just like launches back then reached the top of the funnel. So today, just

like we were talking at lunch, we serve a lot of doctors. And today it's very common for a doctor to arrive not asking about launches, but asking about VSLs, and the guy doesn't even know what a VSL is. God bless them, gotta love 'em. Helping us pay the studio bills here, right Gab? Pay your salary so you can play your Rainbow Six over there, your CS. This guy is awesome at CS. Really? He's tough. Look at his skin over there, man. The guy doesn't even leave the... He really looks like one of those gamers. He

does. Yeah, he looks like it, right? Gab is awesome. And then, João, I notice there's this factor. And there's also another point, which is the following: I notice that people... are really tired of launches, right? That's obvious, we see that all the time, right? And then when it comes to this... and now talking about experts who have already run, and done launches, okay? And then when they see this new funnel, this VSL funnel, and see that the energy required is ridiculous compared to a launch where we had to produce 500 pieces of content and do

I don't know how many thousands of live streams, and they see a simple funnel like this, it opens their eyes. And then there's kind of a group that shares information inside masterminds. So today every mastermind in Brazil, you can take any of the most famous ones, even Black Monster, which is ours over at the operation, okay? The VSL is the main point of communication in every single one of them, you see? And then that opens up space for what we were talking about Earlier, about a really great opportunity even for the copywriter who masters the

funnel, who knows how to build a well-made funnel, because there's a point. People are clear that VSLs have become extremely important, and they have indeed generated a lot of results, but they just don't know how to build one. They think it's just about grabbing a script, a framework, so much so that it's funny because: "Ah, there's a VSL that is selling." People go: "Ah, send me its framework so I can model it here." But we know it doesn't work like that, right? There are several core pillars behind it. Got it, man. bro, changing the subject

a bit, okay? Talking right now about the more tec, technical side. Wow, damn. Man, on the day of the podcast with you, my throat decides to go bad, guys. I apologize to everyone at home. But yeah.... you said over there that there are experts who have criteria for Us to choose whether to work with them or not. In this case, .how good this tree that we're going to cultivate is actually going to be. Is this going to be a little tree that grows just a little bit right here, or is it one of those Sequoia

trees from the United States that you can wrap your arms around, you know? So there are experts and experts. So man, I wanted us to talk a bit to the market about how they can go ahead and monetize experts and what they need to implement to make an expert that actually generates real money, right? Of course, if the expert is smart, they'll watch this and say: "Aha, I'm an expert, I can apply this for myself too." Obviously. But then, curiously, you're not just an expert, you're already a guy who Understands more about marketing as well,

which is really cool. But man, starting from the beginning, okay? Imagine I'm going to select an expert. How do you do it, or how do you actually recommend going about selecting an expert? Okay, let's start from the premise that: the guy is going after the expert, or he already has someone more or less lined up- What do you think is the most common? Man, the most common today... Imagine he's going after one, man. Yeah, he goes after one. Let's go. Because that covers everything, right? Okay, deal. He goes after one. First point. Let's break down

a few branches here to be more practical, right? Let's do it. We have the expert who is the guy who already really masters the content and is starting out in the digital space. So he's that therapist who already sees clients in person, but he's just Starting to produce content and doesn't really have followers or anything like that, you get it? The demand this guy has is completely different from another therapist, for example, who already produces a certain amount of content and already has 50 thousand, 100 thousand followers for example. And there's the other category of

influencers, who are the more elite ones, as I usually call them, who are bigger influencers with like 1 million followers. Much more gourmet. More gourmet, exactly. And then.. Which of these three is the best? Man, it depends, because you might actually pick an elite expert and that guy just won't make you any money at all. That's happened to me before. So the first thing is: looking at this guy, Understanding his moment, I would definitely pick the expert who is at a B level, so to speak. I mean, he's not the complete beginner who is just

starting out on social media, but . he's definitely not that super elite expert who is getting huge either. Because if a beginner tries to pick a huge expert, there's gonna be trouble. And not even just management-wise, but actually handling the expert, because even though it's a great business model, it's a model where you have to show a certain care, because at the end of the day, it's not just about you, you know? Care? What do you mean? Tell me more about that. What does that mean? You have to—how can I put it, man? You have

to take care, give attention to the expert, you know? You kind of become like a father to them, so to speak. Because jealousy happens a lot, okay? Man, it's happened to me so much. Sometimes you're working- Jealous, you mean like he gets mad that you're working with another expert? Exactly, a lot of jealousy happens. So you have to be careful, know how to manage it, have the know-how, as we say in the Northeast. And so I would pick that middle expert right there, a guy with about 100 thousand followers, to be precise. What are the

criteria to see if this tree will bear fruit or not? I think the first point... and it doesn't necessarily have to do with any technical skill right now, actually has to do with how hungry this guy really is to succeed. The size of his hunger honestly dictates a lot, because the work of an expert in a clean, white market business model, so to speak, is always a bit of hard work right early on in the beginning. Really? What do they do? Let's see. There's the whole product creation issue, a lot of stuff to record. So

if he's not a guy who—man, if he hates recording and it's always a struggle for him to record a creative, you're going to have problems with him. Yeah. You'll have problems. Because.... the really good side of having an expert is that you have a real human being, a real person there, and your creativity with that person is pretty much infinite in that sense, you can count on them at any moment right there, you see? So, first criterion is hunger, second criterion: They have to Understand a bit about the market they're in... They have to know

their market, right? What does that mean? Let me give you an example: the guy is a doctor, and .. and he works with menopause, okay? If this guy doesn't really know the common problems of his audience, if he doesn't know what types of solutions for menopause exist in his market, if he doesn't know what the most common products are out there, then it just doesn't make sense, right? He's just a content creator, and that guy is always gonna be much harder for you to calibrate, get it? So what I'm talking about here is the criteria

for picking an expert who has a high chance of succeeding. I mean, they really have this kind of vision. and the third point that I think is very important for an expert... Man, he already, I mean.. Let's stay within our menopause example here, right? He knows the different ways out there that exist to solve the same problem. Because, look, it's not the expert's job to build a methodology, although if he's really good, he'll already have one anyway. But it's his job to know what the common types of solutions actually exist for that problem. Because that's

really where the strategist copywriter comes in to do what? I mean, Make it look good to sell to the market, get it? But the technical part, the guy has to master. And another criterion that I think is very important He's a guy, I mean, today, right? Looking at the situation the market's in right now... So, he's a guy who's really good at tracking trends in content recording formats, alright?. I will give you an example, Guto Galamba. Guto Galamba, so take the creatives we run over in his funnel, ok? — out of all of them, the

ones that perform best in paid traffic are the ones he validated in organic first, you know? So, he's good at validating formats – let's put it that way, alright? And when you've got an expert who's good at that, it makes life a lot easier on the marketing side itself. That's so interesting, man. I mean, the expert helps you validate formats that you'll eventually use over in paid traffic. Exactly. And the expert, if he's a guy who's plugged into social media, he'll be watching content and thinking: "Oh, this kind of content works here." And he'll make

a similar piece of content, it'll get reach, it'll get views, and then, as A result, you can adapt it to run in paid traffic. Interesting, right? Yeah. And there's actually a little hack I want to give you, if you're an expert watching this episode. It's the hidden profile hack. So what do you have to do? You're gonna build yourself a second profile from scratch and you're gonna put in keywords from your niche. Then you're gonna start consuming content there. Basically, you're gonna build your swipe file of content, of formats, you know? Then you can replicate

them on your own profile. And there's one point here, João, and this is really important, okay? When we're talking about experts. Sometimes the guy thinks he's always gotta be out there, chasing a new format, testing infinite content production formats. But that's not true. What I've noticed is this: if the guy strikes gold with one format, he's gonna be known for that format, right There's even this woman, I can't remember her Instagram right now – but you go to her profile and it's a given – like, you already know what format to expect. Guto was like

that for a long time too. And what was the format you'd expect on his profile? The lives he used to start with: "Good morning, the sun's already up over at the..." Seen that one? Man, hold on, you can't be serious! I mean, who is behind that good-morning song? I don't know, dude. It's some kids' cartoon thing. Man, the worst part is my mom sent me an audio the other day on WhatsApp — singing that damn song, dude. That thing got stuck in my head. That whole "good morning, sun's up on the farm" thing. Except he

didn't say that. He said a word I can't repeat here. Really? Damn, now you ruined my day. I was picturing the sun coming up on the Farm. Yeah. And like, then the guy ends up being known for that kind of format that he produces. I mean, the format becomes the specialist's identity, you get it? Interesting, man. The format becomes the specialist's identity. Exactly. Cool, man. But that's with really good specialists, right? I mean, specialists who've got that social media instinct. Yes – exactly. And I mean, that expert who is in the middle – remember I

told you? if that guy checks one of those boxes we went over previously, then he can pull this off, you know? Because, man, these days it's really not that hard it's all out there already. You just have to, look at what's going on out there and replicate it for your own niche, you get it? Yeah man. But now, let me ask you two things, okay? And I think that at least one of them, is a bit more, advanced, you know? I mean, you guys at home, you'll have to figure it out, alright? Maybe, pause it

right there and Chew on it a little bit – some food for thought for you guys watching. but here's the thing, right? When we sit down to, let's say, build a marketing message, run a launch, a VSL, whatever it is — when we're putting together a sales message and dropping it into a format m I mean, the actual message itself has to sell, right? Because if it doesn't sell, then obviously we're not gonna be able to monetize the expert at all, right? So we're doing all of this, in order to sell, right? But inside that

message, there's a whole lot going on. I mean, you need a way to grab attention, you need an offer for the person, and you need a mechanism and that mechanism gets built out of a belief that we plant in the person's head, you know? And that, right there, is the "one belief", right? yeah And that belief is the one from the book "The 16-Word Sales Letter," you know? It's gonna pop up here on the screen, okay, guys? I mean, that belief has to convince the person that accomplishing this one thing is what gets them the

benefit they want, right? But like, say I'm an expert and I've got my own method. For example, let's say I'm in weight loss, so I've got the detox diet, you know? the one that flushes all the toxins out of your body. And I've already got, that sentence ready — that one belief — 'cause it comes straight out of my own method, do you get what I mean? It's almost like every expert already comes with a one belief that's more or less baked in, and sure, you can, play with it a little, but it stays more

or less in that same lane, you know? Like, man, a detox diet expert is gonna say you've gotta flush out the toxins to Lose weight, right? He's got no choice there. He's gonna have to say it. So look, if one of the most important pieces of the whole message is having that one belief nailed down, that single belief done right — and that's the concept from the book I keep mentioning, guys, we'll get into it properly later, alright? Meanwhile, relax, 'cause it's gonna get simpler, but this is meant to be more of a bottom-of-funnel podcast,

so you have to figure it out. Anyway, man, isn't it worth using that one belief to decide which expert you take on? I mean, this expert here has a one belief I can actually work with, so I'll go with him. Now that other guy over there — his one belief is either a weak one with no proof behind it, or it's been beaten to death already. And that's something I've never actually done, man. I mean, I've only done one expert: Fran. Shout-out to Fran. And in fact, who Actually did it was Thiago Filemon. Thiagão -

so it wasn't even me. And it worked really well, she was pulling multiple six figures in Brazil. But if I were doing it, I'd go with the guy who's hungry. I mean, the expert who actually wants to make it happen. Knowing the audience and the solutions, no doubt, will help me with the research and help me write better copy. And that content thing you brought up — I hadn't even thought about that, but that's gold, 'cause it's gonna help you a ton with marketing — like, marketing specifically to his own audience, right? Which is even

more powerful. But intuitively, man, this One Belief thing, I think that's something I'd go after. So how do you factor that in? Or does it not even enter your process? Tell me a bit about that. Man, the One Belief is definitely a really important concept, yeah, but at First, you know, it doesn't really pass my screening process. m because I mean, I'm honestly way more focused on looking at those specific criteria when I'm searching for an expert, right. Like, let's say I'm working in a really massive niche, like the weight loss niche that you mentioned

earlier. And then I find this one specific weight loss expert who works with detox, but he also teaches a bunch of other different ways to actually get things done, you know? Like, sometimes the guy just doesn't have that clarity about his One Belief yet. But he's an amazing guy, man. You can see he's a real go-getter, he speaks incredibly well, and you can just tell he has great communication skills. So I'm not gonna pass on this guy just because he doesn't have absolute clarity on his One Belief right now. What am I gonna do instead?

I'll just build that clarity for him. And that's exactly where the strategist's role comes in, which is super important. As a strategist, you really need to understand this One Belief, because I always joke that it's the expert's golden thread. It's the main track he's gonna follow, you know. We often say the expert has a few key components, and I mean, that actually goes beyond just standard direct response marketing, right? So you have the One Belief, but there's also the movement aspect, which is really important, and the positioning, which is super important too. And just because

the guy might not have clarity on his One Belief, I won't just rule him out. Like I said before, he obviously still has those other elements that will influence the movement. Maybe he is the kind of guy who has this massive power of attraction, and a really strong leadership presence, you get me? Got it. He can persuade people in other ways. Like, he doesn't need insane copy because he's just a magnetic person. Exactly, and honestly most of the time, the greatest experts usually don't have the best copy, you know? They don't, because they're able to

simply sell it all on their own - got it? Got it, man. And like, for me, without a doubt, it's really not an issue if the expert doesn't have clarity on his mechanism—on his One Belief. But if I couldn't find a One Belief... I mean, let's say I look at you here and I think: "Man, I can already see three different One Beliefs right away"—and that basically generates three different mechanisms, right? But then, if I couldn't figure it out at all—and I'm just thinking out loud here, 'cause I've never actually faced this... But anyway, if

I couldn't figure out a single One Belief, I don't think I'd give that expert much of a chance, because I'd Be screwed later. I feel like I wouldn't be able to create something truly unique, you know? Why do I think this? Because in my head, I hold this belief that if the person spent his whole life defending something take a weight loss expert, for example. Let's say, he spent his entire life saying that detoxing for weight loss is the right thing. But then people just stopped believing in that, or maybe it's simply not true anymore.

Let's say a new study came out proving it's a lie. I mean, it could happen, right? Then, that guy realizes he dedicated his entire life to an absolute lie. And that's fine, he just made a mistake. But he's never gonna want to stop defending that belief. It's just like the flat earth crew, you know? He won't go back on it, he's Already committed. And honestly, man, I wouldn't jump on that train. I think it's way better to get a guy where I can see the One Belief clearly. But, man, I can be wrong, alright? I

was just thinking out loud because I wanted to understand it. So, like I said, it depends a little bit, because, for example, we recently went through a transformation process with Guto. His repositioning, you know. Before, he was very focused on the end consumer, and now he's really focused on the medical field. But we didn't stop running direct traffic, we didn't stop running VSLs. And back then, before I joined the operation to restructure things and create the VSLs, his One Belief was just completely different. So there was this VSL with the five pillars of weight loss,

as he calls it. And when I got there, the offer we were meant to put together was actually for Men over 40 who want to lose that belly fat, you know, the cortisol belly as they call. So what did I do? I basically, restructured his One Belief, right? And instead of the five pillars of weight loss, since he was moving towards this more medical, technical approach, I just took out the five pillars of weight loss and categorized them— I mean, I put them into what I called a hormonal reset, you get it? So like, instead

of five pillars, what are you resetting? Your cortisol and your testosterone. So yeah, there are experts who are flexible enough for you to tweak their One Belief, you know? Would you say they're the majority? Oh, man...this is a tough question. Because if they are, well, that's perfect. The majority for sure, because there is this, what's that problem called again? I think it is the curse of knowledge, right? Yeah, that's A thing. Curse of Knowledge, I think, or maybe wisdom... anyway... For us, sometimes it's super obvious, right? But for the expert m I mean, he sees

us – the strategist or the copywriter, in a really high position, you know? Whatever you say, he's just gonna go with it, 'cause he just wants to make money, right? So, long story short: most of them are really flexible when it comes to tweaking the One Belief - you get it? I mean, unless you're dealing with a massive expert. You know, elite level. Like, how am I gonna change Mayra Cardi's One Belief? How am I gonna tweak Wendell de Carvalho's One Belief. Their businesses have been rock solid for a long time now. And in Guto's

case, it was an exception, Because it was actually a repositioning strategy. But, I mean, smaller experts are extremely flexible, they truly are. Yeah, without a doubt, right? If the guy is gonna make money, depending on the amount, the person will say whatever it takes and that's it. I mean, as long as it's not something that will hurt them legally or ethically—or his core principles too—yeah, he'll definitely just say it. Man, now my second question, okay? And guys, don't worry, I'm gonna ask about how to monetize and everything in just a bit, alright? But for now,

relax, because on this podcast, with all due respect, I just follow my own curiosity, right? And I have one more question about this and then we can move on, okay? So man, let's say I'm gonna select an expert, right? One thing that I'd find super important, you know, are those extra elements of Persuasion that you mentioned earlier, which aren't necessarily, related to his mechanism. It's not an element of proof, you know, showing that it'll work, like: "Oh, my method works because of this right here, or because I have this mechanism, or this One Belief, or

whatever." I mean those, more subjective aspects, you know? For example, how well he communicates, what his personality is like, whether it's magnetic or not. Because if there's a guy who's just annoying, who can't speak properly, basically someone people don't like—I mean, everybody buys from people they like, right? So, if we have this annoying guy here, and another super friendly person people really like over there, and they both have the exact same mechanism—well, I'm definitely going with the nice guy. Absolutely. Yeah, to me that makes total sense, alright? But I honestly think, man, that for these

experts, this is just incredibly important, because, this guy can generate a whole ton of social proof—I mean, pent-up demand, actually—just by producing content and showing his face out there. and I really believe that this alone saves a lot of really bad copy like, when you have an expert like that. Do you know what I mean? Like, based on what you answered so far, you agree with me, right? You think that's awesome. But here's the thing, man, how do we go about identifying this stuff in the first place? Is there some objective criteria we can look

at and say: "Man, this guy right here, he's got it, he has this magnetic personality, he's just an awesome person." Because, come on, those big guys you just mentioned, Guto, Pablo Marçal, Zezinho, Primo Rico, it's really easy to see that—even Thiago Finch—they all have This personality, right? But what about the guy who isn't like that? I mean, a smaller guy who has a hundred thousand followers. Can we actually identify that from the get-go? Wow man! I think that's a really good question, alright? Really good. So... what actually happens here? At first it's a bit hard

to identify. There's even a book out there called, if I'm not mistaken it is called "The Hero and the Outlaw", which is about these two archetypes. It will pop up on the screen, guys. Yeah, I won't remember right now. But anyway, it describes these archetypes. But what do you need to understand here, alright? When you get an expert with 12 thousand or a hundred thousand followers, he's someone who is just starting out, right?. He isn't a fully formed expert yet - I mean, in those complementary skills of a hyped Specialist, you know? But this guy

is highly dedicated - like, a really curious person. So you'll see that you can actually sum that person up pretty easily. I mean, let's say you're at an event and an expert comes up to talk to you. There's definitely gonna be some specific characteristic of his that will leave a mark on you. At least, that's kind of, my own personal rule, you know. If I'm talking to an expert and something he said—or just something I heard from him—really stuck with me, my radar immediately goes off. Like, let's say he's a super mysterious guy, so he

basically got that whole sage archetype going on, right? Or maybe he's a really funny guy, you know? let's put it this way: he is anything but a neutral person, do you understand? Like, he's a person that . I mean, he's someone that you can describe long after the event is over. It's someone remarkable, you know? So a guy who leaves some kind of mark, he usually grabs my attention right away. Now, the guy who's just super lukewarm, you know, the guy who's just there to please everyone, that guy—it's just really hard to deal with, man.

Because let's imagine, that we are going to run an in-person immersion funnel with him. And then people in the audience will start coming up to ask him questions to basically break their objections. What is going to happen? That guy is gonna freeze up on stage, right? It's gonna push him way out of his comfort zone. So you have to be careful with that. I get it, man—that is really awesome. but right now, I want to talk about monetizing these guys, you know? So we can make our money, buy our stuff, eat some sushi for lunch,

just like you did today - this kind of thing, right?. Alright man, so, these guys right here - the ones that we're gonna find or prospect to eventually become our experts. Or I mean, even the experts that we already have working with us right now. They probably already did some kind of launch before, right? And then you told me at lunch today that there are five specific funnels you like to apply with these experts. Let me tell you how I actually pictured this in my head, right? I mean, I figured, or at least I thought

about it, you know, almost like they were five totally different ladders. And on each ladder, I can actually climb up to a certain height of the tree and basically grab a different fruit. So it's not like having one funnel excludes the others. You really gotta have all of them, because they'll give you several different fruits from the tree right there, some higher up, others lower down. But I assume, you know, out Of these five funnels, the launch is just one of them, right? So man, run me through those funnels you were talking about earlier. And

tell me which one you usually set up first, just so we can dive into it. Awesome. Man, look, it's a sure thing: If an expert—literally any expert—plugs in these five funnels, they can build a seven-figure-a-month business. I truly mean, any expert, right? So, what are the funnels? First funnel is the low-ticket one. First I'll just list them out loud for you here, okay? The second is the VSL funnel. third funnel is the secret room, which is the paid launch. The fourth is the traditional launch. And the fifth is the mentorship or high-ticket funnel. Those are

the five funnels, right? And then, inside some of those funnels, there are subcategories of funnels that You can easily implement as well, right? And which funnel is, I mean, why do you even recommend doing this? because... like, why do you think people should actually do all of this in the first place, you know, instead of just focusing, let's say, on one single funnel? Alright, that's exactly where the mistake is. For example, sure, VSLs are super trendy right now, but depending on the expert, it doesn't make much sense to start with the specialist plugging in the

VSL right away. Obviously, it's really good, but look, that's looking at it from the level of ease of grabbing that fruit from the tree, like I mentioned before. So if I have an expert, man, the guy already has a warm base and products the audience knows. I'm not gonna start with that - speaking strictly about money in the pocket, okay? Like, I'm not gonna start by producing a funnel for a cold Audience, a VSL, because there's the whole production time for the VSL, right, there's the time to write the script, record it, etc. What am

I gonna do instead? I'll do a launch for my warm base. Like, a quick launch, a quick strategy for a launch where I can actually make my very first, let's say, multiple six figures in this project. Yeah, I mean, that's basically the fastest way to, get money out of an expert, right? Is that the paid one, or the regular? That's the paid one, the paid launch. Don't you think the regular one is worth doing? I'd go with the regular one if it were me — if I had that audience warmed up. Man, it depends, right?

But look, given the market right now, I'd start with paid, okay? Why? Tell me more about that. Alright, so Let's say, I'm gonna start with the expert, right? The first thing I really want to do is put some real money into the operation right away, correct? So I'm gonna sell tickets, man. I've already got a warm list going — I mean, just off the guy's Stories I can sell, let's say: thirty, forty, fifty tickets. So the number of people I need to bring in for my event ends up being smaller — compared to the results

I'll get, you know? Now if I were to do a free launch, let's see... Let me give you some metrics. If I do a free launch with just one PLC, if I bring in 10,000 leads, if things go well, I'll get around 15% of that showing up live. 15%, 10% of that showing up live — for an effort that needs a ton of leads. Now, With the paid launch, if I make like 300 sales, I'd charge something like 67 bucks for the ticket, funnel that crowd into a more qualified Zoom room, and that would already

cover my front-end costs — and whatever came in after that would be profit. I'd go with paid just for how simple the strategy is, you know? That's why I'd rather do a paid launch. I think you just don't want the risk of doing a launch anymore, man — putting people in there just to see if the thing's gonna work out. The paid launch has less risk, right, because at least the person's already paid for the ticket. I think that's kind of part of it too, man. Don't you think? Could be. I think it's 'cause I've

gotten burned many times. Yeah, man, I think you're feeling the benefits of the VSL now, and you just don't want to deal with investing and crossing your fingers and praying it all Works out. It's because, look, the free launch, I actually run it with an expert from our real estate space. Carlos B. is his name, if anyone wants to go look him up later on. We run launches with him — we do launches with him four times a year. Four? I mean, this year we actually cut it down to three. So it's not a lot

of launches, but they're huge ones. You know? So these days, we don't do a launch with him unless it's gonna bring in at least seven figures. Because there's just so much effort from the whole team. Anyone who's done a launch knows how exhausting it is, but in the end, it's totally worth it, right? Yeah, it's complicated. And man, you have all of these different funnels here, alright? When do you actually implement the VSL funnel? When exactly do you do that? Alright, let's imagine we've already picked the lowest-hanging fruit, whether it's with a free launch or,

in our case here, with a paid launch, okay? The second funnel I'm gonna run will be a VSL funnel. Isn't it the low-ticket? Not the low-ticket. Why not the low-ticket funnel? And when you say low ticket, are we talking about a quiz or a sales page? Right now, low ticket runs on a sales page. A sales page, man? Damn, that's aggressive. What's low ticket to you? Low ticket to me is a product that instantly solves a problem that the person is already desperately trying to solve. But what is the price point? Oh, the price? Man,

97 at the absolute maximum, and I already think that's expensive. Damn, that's low ticket? Wow, I actually sold a product for 97 with a VSL, you Know? Scaled it up and everything. In 2018 – it was a weight-loss ebook. It wasn't a PLR, right? No, I was an affiliate. It belonged to this expert named Rose, and funny enough, her main mechanism was the whole detox thing, you know? It was called the Detox Plan. That's been a while! Big shoutout to the guys at SevenPlay, I was an affiliate for them. Yeah. But man, seriously, low ticket

with a straight sales page, dude. Where did you even learn that, just out of curiosity? Man, I learned that—I'll just tell you. Do you know Ricardo Máximo? Yes, I do So - I learned a lot from him. Oh, nice, man! Big shoutout to Máximo. Shoutout to Ricardo Máximo He gets his haircut at Corte, here in Florianópolis I actually have an expert who gets his haircut there, well, two actually. Cardoso, huge shoutout to you. and Wendell too. So, let's go, why low ticket with a sales page, alright? Honestly, I never really stopped to test it with

a quiz. Obviously, if I tested it, it might get huge results. But with a sales page, I just find it so easy, so incredibly easy to, you know, get it out there. Since I really need to be, you know, super fast with my decisions to launch these funnels, man, in just a week you can definitely launch a low-ticket product. And so I always start with this psychology of the product being a specific problem that the person already wants to solve, something she already sees happening in her life, you know, which we call mental rumination, m

something like that, right, that concept. And all that inside a page framework that I already know works perfectly for me. You get it? And with an ad vault that I know works for me. Usually, they're ads that already talk about the problem, right off the bat, like, ah, if you—for example, I have One of our low tickets that already made over 2 million just this year alone, you know? Just this year? Yes, from January right up to now It's in the relationship niche. "Chosen Forever," that's the name. That's awesome, man. Yeah, so, what was the

pain point I identified? Every woman has a dream, she has a desire when she gets into a relationship, which is what? She wants to make sure she is the only chosen one, that she is being chosen forever. So I took that idea and structured a low ticket on top of that: Chosen Forever. Sneaky, man. That's sneaky. And it's doing really well. Man, yeah, there is absolutely no doubt that it works. But, you know, this whole quiz thing actually works too. And I know that because I talk to the guys around here... and honestly, the numbers

are just completely bizarre too... I mean, Truly bizarre, man. But is it just a simple quiz? Doesn't it include a mini VSL too? I mean, it depends, like, the more professional guys are actually doing it with two mini VSLs right now. That's new to me. To me too, but I found it pretty cool, right? Yeah But look, we recently released a roundtable talking about low ticket and quizzes, you know. It should be popping up right there on the screen for you guys. So you can go check out that training, because that's the podcast I told

you about earlier that was five hours long. It was five hours and 10 minutes, or nine minutes, I can't remember. So, damn, it's an extremely long podcast, you know? And look, the guys over there are running it with quizzes. And man, they are pulling in seven figures a month. That is insane. Yeah, and some of it is with Recurring revenue. But honestly, I don't — I mean, I don't know how easy it is to translate that over to— actually they run it with special experts. Yes, they do. Like, Kauê and Slender are running it with

an expert from the fitness niche. So maybe it might be worth it for you to take a look at it, because... yeah, I think the real difference with that, like, drawing a parallel here, right? You know the guys who run evergreen offers with a normal sales page? Like, these guys are making good money, right? but then there's the VSL crowd, which is, damn... just on another level entirely And I think the low ticket is like that, you know? Like this quiz thing scales way harder than a sales page, at least from what I've talked about

when it comes to the numbers. But I don't know, 'cause I haven't run it myself, it's only from What I talk about with the guys, you know? Yeah, I'm definitely gonna test it. Could be an interesting play, right? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I do it with a sales page just because of the speed of the process, you know, to the point that my team already masters the process. So today I don't get involved, like: "oh, let's launch a low ticket." I already have my team, they know what process needs to be done. Like,

oh, we have to do the research, we have to define our primary promise for our low ticket, we have to figure out what mechanism we're gonna bring to the table, and we have the pre-defined page structure. So there's already a solid scope. So look... the expert is this guy, here is this market study, go ahead and create this copy package for this low ticket. So it's incredibly fast, you get it? It's just easier. Absolutely - if that, sales page is 100% templatized, it makes everything Easier. Yeah, literally. I can share it with the guys from

the podcast. The page from that seven-figure low ticket funnel and two of our best ads. Nice, that's awesome. So something's gonna pop up here on the screen for you guys, alright? and man, like, what about the VSL funnel? I mean, the real cherry on top of the digital market in 2026, for all the infoproducers out there who want to make real money. like, how do you actually build a VSL, dude? I mean, just imagine you grabbed a co-producer out there, like an expert, and you want to make a VSL for him. What exactly are you

gonna do first? Okay, yeah, let's do it. The very first thing I do, I run a download call with this expert. I mean, I call it the download call. A download call? Exactly Wow, they must be so happy with that, right? I'm gonna do the download call. Fancy name, right? Damn, now I'm going to get rich. The guy is going to download my brain. What's my goal on this download call? There's no goal... Damn, dude! That's right Nice call. I go in there, like, literally just to talk to the person, do you understand? Just to

get to know him, right, I don't go in with the mindset of I need to extract an offer, I need to extract a mechanism, no, because if I feel like I'm going in biased towards that, the meeting doesn't flow because I keep wanting to pull the conversation back to the topic of the, of the mechanism. So I'm just gonna understand the guy's story, I'm gonna understand, I'm gonna ask about his methodology, if he already has one. I'm gonna ask who this guy really is, what kind of actual results he's already generated for people, whether he

has a product yet or not. And one thing that I think is extremely important on this download call, is Defining questions about positioning, because looking inside my whole VSL process with an expert, I think that one of the points that is a huge differentiator for me, is that something I care deeply about is something I call the internal dialogue of the audience, the market dialogue right there of the audience, you know? m actually, sorry, it is not dialogue, it is dialect... the audience dialect. Because I believe every audience has a different dialect for how you

communicate with them. A particular way of speaking. Like, special words, right? Exactly. Special words. And that involves just literally everything, from the words inside the copy to the editing side of things. So on this call, I really want to figure that out. It is a long call. I mean, you know, like a normal conversation. What do you mean by long? How much time? Probably around two hours. Like, I have a document with some of the questions...I'll share that with you guys too. Nice. So essentially, you're just gonna jump on a call with the guy, he's

gonna start chatting with you, and you really want to know all about his story, like, about his life, and you want to go through those specific questions that you mentioned you were gonna pass on to us. But from what I'm gathering here today, you basically just want to understand the expert himself, right? Exactly, it's all about the expert. and you also mentioned some of that positioning stuff, right? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from what I understood, like, you're basically trying to figure out his communication style so you can really match it when talking

to his audience in the VSL. It's not just how he communicates. Like, when I talk about positioning, it's also About his core beliefs regarding the subject he teaches and what he disagrees with. I think asking that is super important. What do you mean? Tell me more. Sure...let's say that m We have a roster here with 10 different experts. And let's imagine they are 10 experts in the same niche, okay? And each expert is gonna have their own beliefs about what they teach, and they're bound to disagree with what the next guy is teaching, right? So

every single market has a crowd that buys into a specific idea, and another crowd that completely rejects it, you know. Sure. So it's really important for me to understand what he agrees with and what he disagrees with in the market, you get it? Got it. So I can, like, mm But what he's gonna agree with will be his own method, right? Yeah, most of the time... And what he's gonna disagree with are the other methods. Not necessarily, man. Sometimes it's some skewed information that's out there in the market, right? Like, let's say for example that

he doesn't believe in the "poor man's Mounjaro", you know? Or, let's say a diet that... That offer scaled, bro. I mean, the fact that you know about it... Kudos to the copywriter. But some experts don't believe... It ran with a quiz funnel and a mini VSL. It scaled, man...the poor man's Mounjaro. Really? Damn, congrats, man. Guys, if the poor man's Mounjaro is showing up here on Johab's podcast, it's because it scaled. Yeah, man. I think I saw that copy, actually. I think I read it somewhere. You sure did. Anyway, I think that's really important... Yeah,

but in this case, he's gonna be convinced his method works, no doubt about it. He's gonna have his own take on the market in general... like what's actually possible and what isn't. He'll also have strong opinions on things he doesn't like. Take weight loss, for example: he's like, "Oh, I hate weight loss supplements," or the guy sells natural stuff and is totally against medication. So, you're basically mapping out his exact stance on a whole bunch of things, what he stands for and what he's against — whether that's regarding his own product, competitors' products, or the

industry as a whole. So you basically end up with a complete map of his overall mindset, right? Exactly. Is there some kind of, how can I actually say this? I mean, do you ever hit a point where you just say, "Alright, that's enough, I've got what I need," or maybe you realize you're still missing some key pieces? Because otherwise, you could easily go down this endless rabbit hole Of beliefs forever, right? Yeah, I mean, once I notice he's starting to just say the exact same thing using different words, I cut it off right there. Like,

alright, I think we've got enough. At that point, I have a pretty solid grasp on who he is and his methodology - if he has one, right? Then there's this one question I think is super important, which is defining the audience's point A and point B, straight from the expert's perspective, you know what I mean? So I ask the guy, "Bro, who is this John Doe that comes to you, but he's still struggling with a problem? Where is he at, right now?" And then, he breaks it down for me, describing exactly how this guy acts

and feels. Then I ask, "And who is he after going through your methodology or getting that Transformation you promise?" Then he goes ahead and lays out Point B for me. Now, why do I ask that? I mean, if the expert isn't really clear on his own methodology, this question is basically the key to helping him map it out, right. Because honestly, structuring a method—or even that whole unique mechanism thing—is just super obvious to me, you know. I basically have two main pillars. You've got the good side. And then the bad side, where my audience is

at right now. So, what exactly do I need to do for them? I need to show them the path to get to that good side, right? And how do you build that path? It usually comes down to pillars or phases—basically the steps they need to take to hit that final result, or maybe even just one single thing they have to do, you know? So it gets very simple for me. I know where the guy is today, and I know where he wants to get to. So, basically, I just need to organize this journey for him

and put a fancy name on it. I mean, that's if the expert doesn't already have a methodology, you know? And how do I do it?—I usually start backwards, right? A lot of this goes back to when I was running those launches, you know? I leaned heavily into direct response marketing concepts back then, especially the Logical Points—I used them constantly. that is from Clayton Makepeace's book, right? I didn't even know there was a book You just used it... Yeah, I just used it. So, here's how I actually break it down: we map out Point A and

Point B. Let me give you an example. Take the finance space—like a guy trying to become a trader. What's his ultimate goal? It's about him becoming a sharp, consistent trader pulling in, like, two To five grand a day. But who is this guy right now? He's frustrated, seeing zero results, and completely inconsistent So I take the end goal and reverse-engineer the whole process, you know what I mean? Like, I picture the guy who's already crushing it—but right before he got there, what did he need to figure out? He needed to master the best day trading

techniques to actually lock in those wins. and before that? He had to nail the fundamentals. And before that, he needed the right trader mindset. And going all the way back, he just needed to realize the actual opportunity in day trading, you know. And for me, mapping it out backwards is just way easier, right? Some guys build it from the ground up, but I like working in reverse. I actually pulled this concept from a book I read... it's called Story. Story? Yeah, I think it's that one with the brownish cover, you know? I have no idea.

But they've mentioned the book on the podcast before and said it's really good. It's really good. Isn't it by a guy who won some award in Hollywood or something like that? I actually think so. Why do I say this, right? Well, my way of looking at copy, it's a bit— I mean, I'm just very visual in my thinking, you know. Like, when I was a little kid, I always had a dream of being a cartoon animator. Doing animation and stuff, right? Hold on, when you were a kid, man? Didn't you want to be an astronaut?

No, I wanted to work with 3D animation. Damn, bro. That's cool. Yeah, like, I'd spend all day just obsessed with how those guys made Disney cartoons, you know. And then, I learned super early on that every great movie actually starts with a storyboard. Like, they already know exactly what's going into every single scene, right? Copy is the same thing for me, whether it's in a launch or in a VSL, I need to have this storyboard, you know? And this first conversation with the expert, I'm mapping out points for my storyboard. You get it? so I

always start with that vision. Basically, step one is just sitting down with the expert to pull all of that out of his head, right? and man, what specific points are you actually mapping out in this storyboard then? Because like, well, from what I understood, you'll basically be mapping out mostly his method—I mean, how he's going to generate the benefit for the person, which is I guess why you asked about point A to point B, right? I mean, we'll also be mapping out exactly how to, communicate our message, right, because we'll actually know, the specific words

the niche uses in real life, correct? And then finally, with the beliefs, we'll be mapping out, any potential angles we can use. Like, if it's a belief the market already has, we can tap into that. But if it's purely the expert's personal belief, maybe we try to use it... but at the very most, having it all mapped out just tells me exactly what not to put in the VSL. So we avoid him going, 'Oh, I'm not gonna say this,' right? Is that basically what you're mapping out, or is there more to it?" That's exactly it.

And then, another thing I'm always trying to map out is the irrational desire of my audience. So, how do I actually figure that out? Well, he'll tell me about the kind of content he usually consumes, right? And I'll ask who his main references are, both inside and outside the country, or what books he really recommends reading, you know. And from there, I basically get enough material to go dig into what the audience Is actually saying about the topics he brought up. That way, I can start spotting a clear pattern of desire, right? Which is what

people nowadays call mass desire. But in my case, I prefer to look at it more as an irrational desire, do you get it? Like, what is that one completely crazy point of desire a person has that actually overrides their own survival instinct? I was reading a book by John Carlton, that legendary copywriter, you know. Which book, dude? man, I think it's called "Kick-Ass"... I was just reading that book, bro! Holy sh I mean, I can't curse anymore sorry guys. People are kinda complaining in the comments. So, damn! but dude, are you seriously reading that book

right now? Yeah, I'm reading that book, man Why, man? Dude, I like reading about the fundamentals of copy. That book is the OG, man. Yeah, that book is gold. Honestly, I think that book is the ultimate OG out there, bro. By far. Like, to read that book, you gotta be a legit copywriter. "Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets" by John Carlton? By John Carlton. Damn, bro! The one with the white cover, right? Yeah, so, he brought up this concept that totally changed the way I understand desire. He says that if a desire is targeted the right way, it

actually overrides the survival instinct. Like, I'll give you a pretty extreme example here, okay, but let's take someone who's addicted to alcohol. Bro, to satisfy that craving for alcohol, they'll do crazy things—I mean, it completely overrides their survival instinct, you know. Yeah. So when we can pinpoint that irrational desire in our copy, guiding the lead gets way easier, because that person will do crazy things to fulfill that desire. And in our case, the only "crazy thing" they have to do is swipe their credit card, which is the easiest one, right? Like, the "Chosen Forever" product-since

it's The freshest example in my mind right now. The irrational desire for that woman is to be chosen forever. That's her desire. She said: "I want to be chosen forever." It's not about being seen as the only option in his life, it's not about making sure he never forgets her, it's literally about being chosen forever. So, a huge part of this initial process of mine is trying to find that specific irrational desire that's gonna override whatever survival instinct that person has, or any barrier they might put up against my copy, you get it? Yeah man.

So in that case, it would be ,like, the benefit... I mean, the specific dimensional benefit the person wants the most, right? Like, I want to be chosen forever. Or, I want to be, Let's say, I want to be the guy who gets all the girls—the most desired guy out There. Or I want to be the man who achieves freedom through wealth. That's the whole point, right? It's that specific dimensional benefit of how the result materializes in that person's life, correct? Exactly. Because there's also this whole other layer to it, right? I mean, you're a copywriter

too, a phenomenal one by the way, so you probably know this even better than I do. But basically, every great piece of copy has two levels, right? There's that surface level where you hand it to a mid-level copywriter, they read it and go, "Wow, this is some solid copy." But then there's a whole other level—a hidden communication happening right beneath the surface. That's the communication of desire, and you really have to be a lot more sensitive to even pick up on it. So sometimes a guy is saying the exact same thing, hitting on the exact

same Desire, but he's just using different elements and different words. But if you look behind the curtain—that third layer of copy, let's call it—it all falls right into that exact same line of desire, you know? Yeah So that's exactly what I'm looking for. And then, why do I do that? We'll get into it, but the next thing I focus on is building what we call the architecture of hope inside the VSL. All of that in this one call? Oh no, that comes later. That's a whole different thing. Oh okay, got it. Alright, so we wrapped

up the call... Hold on a second, man. Let me just make sure I'm getting this right. Because I actually just got a little bit confused here... I mean, at the very beginning you mentioned—like, what's the actual goal of this call? And you said, "I don't really have a goal, I'm just going in there to chat." But as we're talking, it really sounds like you have a ton of goals, you know? Like, "Man, I need to extract this specific info." So, do you actually go Into it determined to get all this stuff, or is it more

like, if he gives it to you, great, and if he doesn't, whatever, it's all good? Like, how does that actually work? mm, man... I go in there to get it. I definitely go in there to get it. But I tell myself it's a "no-goal call" so I don't put any pressure on myself or on him, right? But in my head, I already know what kind of information I need to pull out of him. Alright man, and let me ask you one more thing. Like, nowadays we've got AI, right. So, the way you actually run this

meeting, do you just set up an AI to transcribe it? Like, have a normal conversation, and then go back later to review the transcript and then maybe dump it somewhere to process the data. Let's say, throw it into ChatGPT to get a sary. Or are you literally taking notes in real-time while The guy is talking? How exactly do you run this meeting? As I mentioned before, I'm a visual person, so I create a mind map. Oh, so you are actually taking notes as he speaks. Exactly. Like, I usually build the mind map with the guy

watching it - to give him clarity, you know. And I have the AI in the background to check later, but I still like doing it myself. I'm pretty old-school with that stuff. Got it. Hey, hold on a second, let me quickly interrupt the podcast. If you could choose anyone in the digital marketing space to be right here on Scaling Secrets, who would it be? Who is this person you'd love to see breaking down their numbers, their strategies, and the behind-the-scenes of their operation? If you know who that person is, we created a quick form, and

it's right down here in the description for you to nominate that person. It only takes a minute to fill out. And then, after you dropped the person's name, we'll study them, figure out how we can fit them in, and if it makes sense, we'll bring that person here on the podcast to do that interview and create that content for you watching at home. So look, if you have someone in mind that you think is worth interviewing, go down to the description, drop their name, 'cause that helps us figure out what kind of content is worth

creating for you, okay? But anyway, let's get back into the podcast. Alright man, now that I put my jacket on and I'm actually properly dressed to keep hosting this podcast. Without freezing to death, right? So, you did the download call. And now we have a pretty good idea of that massive range of information we need so we can start the process of crafting the actual message. Tell me, What exactly is the second step after that initial download call? The second step is where I study the market, right. So, step one was studying the expert, which

is obviously a super important variable. But step two is studying the market, you know. What does that mean, bro? What exactly is studying the market for those who don't know? Man, studying the market basically means you have to understand exactly what offers are currently running inside of your specific market, okay? and why is that, man? Alright. So, with an expert... I'm gonna ask questions, man. I'm literally here to question. Alright. So, usually, when you work with an expert, he's not gonna be the only expert in the entire world. There are gonna be other experts out

there, right? It would be great if it was just yours Right. It would be awesome. But unfortunately it's not. Yeah. So what am I gonna do? I need to understand the level of offer sophistication inside the market I'm operating in. What kind of promises are people making? What kind of mechanisms are people actually using? What kind of deliverables are they pushing in their offers? Because that is super important when we're talking about working with an expert, right. Like, are people bundling this with some sort of mentorship, or maybe some kind of app? I'm gonna figure

out the entire offer game, the ticket price, I'm gonna understand all of it. And, here's a little piece of advice on how I actually study this, okay? The very first thing I do, coming out of that meeting, the expert will usually tell me exactly who his biggest references are, right? If it's a slightly smaller expert, he'll usually point out the biggest names in The space, and I'll just start looking into those major references, you know? And where do I go? I go straight to the Instagram of those big references, check out what kind of offers

they're running, and see if they've got a VSL ticket going on, right. And even if it's not a VSL ticket— I mean, I've actually scaled a VSL at 697 bucks before. But regardless, I still look at it anyway, just so I can check out the packaging of his offer and see exactly how I can adapt that into my own stuff. And within all of that, the single most important part of studying the market, at least to me, is analyzing the actual offers, you know? So if I find a VSL inside the market that I'm writing

for, and, I don't know, maybe it's a VSL that's currently running... maybe it's not even selling a crazy amount, but it's out there, it's running, and it has like 70 active ads in the Facebook Ad Library, that is absolute gold to me, man. Because I firmly believe that the absolute peak of research is when I'm analyzing something that's already selling. Because in that case, the guy has done all the heavy lifting with the research. He worked his ass off to write that copy. So I just have to use that as my blueprint, you know. And

inside that first analysis, that's where I'll start analyzing the invisible structure of that VSL. So I grab that VSL, download it, and throw it straight into a custom agent I built in Claude, which breaks the whole thing down and hands it back to me. Like, I break it all down so I can map it out, you know. I'm super detail-oriented with this stuff, man. Like, take the lead. "Oh, the lead has 700 words." I drop that right into my Document: 700 words. The story block has 500. The mechanism block has X. I map out the

exact same structure working inside that scaled VSL. So yeah, looking at scaled VSLs running right now in the market, right. another thing I also do a lot is, well, inside my swipe file I actually have a lot of old sales letters, a ton of old VSLs that performed really well back in the day, and I always revisit those letters, because I just know that they hold information that could be super relevant for my new offer, you know? Maybe it's a specific problem mechanism the guy used back then, and I can just take it and readapt

it to this brand-new reality in the current market. Because one thing I've learned is that a mechanism is really hard to saturate. I mean, actually, it pretty much never saturates, right? But the way it was dressed up, the way it was actually communicated, yeah, for Sure. So I take a good look at that, see if I can bring something over to my own offer, and I also look for angles from those old VSLs. so I can bring them straight into mine. And then, another thing I'm always looking at in the market is the actual content,

you know? I mean, what is the content that people in that market are actually consuming the most? And why is that? because if a piece of content is trending, it’s because it's grabbing attention, right? Like, it means there's already some solid attention psychology working behind that piece of content, you know? and honestly, when I say content, I'm talking about everything from the actual information inside the content, all the way to the structure that this content is being delivered in. Like, for instance, let's say we're putting together a VSL here for the Weight loss niche, like

for a weight loss expert. And we see that the hottest content right now is GLP-1. The audience is just consuming a massive amount of stuff about GLP-1, about tirzepatide, about Ozempic. So, what is the core information of that content? That's it right there—it's Ozempic, it's GLP-1, that's the core info. Now, what is the actual structure delivering that content? That's when I go in and analyze the headlines, or if it's on TikTok, I check out what specific hooks the crowd is using over there, something like: "Oh, you wanna know everything about the brand new GLP-1?" "Then

stick with me in this video." So basically, I map out what I call the frameworks of attention, starting right from the headline over on YouTube. And why am I looking at that? Because every single piece of the process connects to the final delivery. So if I Notice that there's a clear pattern in how those YouTube headlines are written, and they're on videos getting a ton of views, I'm absolutely gonna repeat that exact same pattern right on the headline of my VSL, you get it? So that's why I look at it. And then the other thing

I look at is the formats. So, within that specific market, what exact formats are actually working today? Like, I'll go scrolling on TikTok, and I use that burner profile strategy, you know, setting up a ghost profile just so I can heavily bias my own algorithm. That way, I get a perfect, filtered view of exactly what that market is seeing. And so I know what the promises are, what the mechanism is, what the offers and deliverables are. I see the copy psychology the guy is using, and I understand the structural psychology of attention that all these

pieces of content are leaning into. That's awesome. Man, I actually have a few questions for you here, alright? So, the very first thing you mentioned is that you go out looking for a scaled VSL in that market. Because a scaled VSL, it's basically the gold standard, right. It's the state of the art, the ultimate final conclusion that some copywriter poured a massive amount of effort into. And not only did they put the effort in, but it actually worked out! Because sometimes, as we both know, we can put a ton of hard work into something, and

man, the copy looks amazing to our own eyes, but the second we test it, it totally flops. So yeah, that happens. But tell me, what happens if you just can't find that scaled VSL? Is there a different approach you take? I mean, you're usually working in highly competitive niches, so there's pretty much always a scaled VSL running. Actually, not almost always—there is always one, right. But what exactly do you do, if anything at all, when you face a total absence of scaled VSLs? Look man, I am not afraid to take a risk on an offer

that I'm building from scratch. I really don't fear that. Because if I feel super confident in the core idea, like, the actual desire that I uncovered, and the specific mechanism I'm planning to use... if there is no VSL there, I have absolutely zero problem being the very first guy to write a VSL for that specific market, you know? And so, alright, maybe there isn't a VSL, that's completely fine, but I still have all this content here, I still know the types of offers running. So obviously, I'm gonna have to sweat a little bit more to

come up with a really solid idea that's worth testing, right? And I'm only gonna know for sure if it's genuinely a great, validated idea once the thing actually starts selling. But if there isn't one, I just trust the process. I do it anyway and I put it out there to run. Got it, that makes total sense. And dude, you mentioned earlier that you'll actually go and grab that top-performing VSL so you can analyze it step by step, right? And you also said, like, "Man, if I go into the Facebook Ad Library and I find 70

active ads, that's an incredibly good sign, I basically struck gold." But my real question for you today is: how exactly do you actually go about finding those top VSLs out there in the very first place, man? Do you literally just go into the Ad Library and punch in a keyword? Do you use a swipe file? Do you have some kind of spy tool, like DeepTube or something like that? Because that whole strategy you mentioned about checking their Instagram and clicking the link in bio is pretty cool, but the VSL for cold traffic isn't necessarily gonna

be sitting there, right? I mean, it might be the cold audience VSL, and I think most of the time it actually is, because guys are usually too lazy to set up two different ones. But man, there's always a chance it's not the cold one, you know? So, what tip would you actually give to the folks watching at home so they can track down this golden content? Like, how do they find that scaled VSL in their niche so they can get a real sense of what's actually working, what the overall format looks like, and what the

core copy structure really is? Well, if the guy is straight-up lazy, the first thing he's gonna have to do is pay for a swipe tool. That's for the lazy guys, okay? Like, there are tons of tools out there, plenty of swipe tools available. In fact, you interviewed Brunão a few days ago, right? Bruno, yeah. Bruno from Swipe. His tool is actually really good, by the way. It's swiper.com.br, right? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, he puts all the copies in there and breaks them down. Like, all kinds of copy. But they aren't mostly current ones—they're older

copies, though he does have a swiper for current ones too. But then, I think that's usually more for the nutra and health niches. I'm not sure if he has a swipe file for infoproducts. Man, I'll tell you there actually is. Trevizan, for example, he just started building out a section for that inside his swipe file. so, if you're the lazy type, you'll have to pay for a swipe tool like that. You'll go in and check out which VSLs are running inside that swipe, and you'll look at the creatives for that specific offer. It's the fastest

way to do it. The absolute simplest way. Bro, think about it like this—and I don't mean to talk trash about the guys running Swipe tools, alright? Their stuff is amazing. But when you do that, you're outsourcing your research to someone else, right? And like you said, if you don't want to put in the effort, there's an upside. But don't you think that it sacrifices a lot of quality? Because your entire scope of research is limited to whatever is inside that tool. I feel like you have to supplement that. How do you see it? Yeah, I

agree. I only brought that up because there are always those guys who are flat-out lazy and don't like to put in the work. But what do I do? I go into the Facebook Ad Library and I start digging. So what I do is, I take some keywords for the niche I'm working in, and I filter by video ads. Inside the filter tab, I select video ads, right, and I sit there, man. I sit there scrolling through that whole thing. I'll throw some music on my Headphones, and I'll stay there clicking around and saving stuff. And

the moment I find a solid VSL, I try to grab the entire funnel right away, you know? So I'll jump straight into the domain name. And at the end of the URL, I'll type in "sitemap.xml", which shows me if the guy has an upsell, or if he doesn't... basically, I map out the funnel psychology and keep saving it all, man. So I find the VSL, download it, save it. I find all the ads. and then, what is my criteria for those ads? It all comes down to how long they've been active. The older the ad,

the better. If it's been running for a long time—unless the guy's an idiot burning cash—it's a massive green light that something is working. You can't be certain, like: Oh, this VSL is scaled and pulling crazy ROAS. You'll never know the exact numbers, right? But you can clearly see that it's at least active and running, you know? So for me, I think that's hands down the best possible approach, at least for my workflow. It just works, right? Yeah, without a doubt. By doing that, you're definitely gonna pull in completely different content. I mean, maybe you'll find

the exact same content already inside that swipe tool you were gonna pay for... But look, here's what I think, alright? And you can tell me your opinion on this, but I think having a swipe tool isn't a bad thing at all. I mean, it's actually a great thing, especially for the price—it's super cheap, man. Like, let's say, maybe a hundred or two hundred bucks, you know? For something that could make you millions. So I think it's cool to have both, right? Having that research handed to you, but also doing your own thing and hunting down

your own stuff. Yeah, it's ideal. And look, inside your swipe file, it's really important to have everything from current offers to the absolute classics, right? I mean, real classic copy. I'm talking John Carlton, David Ogilvy, Gary Halbert, everybody, man. Put everyone in there, and you're gonna be able to extract something good from it, you know? I'll definitely ask you a bit more about that later, don't worry about it. But man, look, I'm gonna bring up something here that's a bit sensitive, but I really want your take on it, alright? And look, this podcast, the VTurb

Podcast, is my own personal show, so I can say whatever I want. If anyone doesn't like it, you can just stop listening. Feel free to tune out, right? I mean, nobody is forcing anyone here, right? We don't have a gun to anybody's head telling them they have to listen. But I am gonna ask you this, man, which Is the following: this entire process you were just talking about, you know, having a solid reference, having a benchmark to look at, that's literally a standard practice across any market, right? I mean, even in the most traditional markets,

we've always had this. It's something that's been around since, I don't know, since the dawn of humanity, basically. It's just like, "Hey, how are other people doing this so I can figure out how to do it myself?" So I can do it better, or whatever, like, this isn't some digital marketing thing where it's like, "Oh my god, look at what people are running." No, this is completely normal. Look at Instagram, for example. Snapchat came out with stories, so Instagram copied stories and threw them on their app. Then TikTok came along with their short videos, and

Instagram copied that and Called it Reels. So this is totally standard, and our market is pretty chill about it, right? it's just how people operate today. For the vast majority of guys creating VSLs, this is a core step in the process, and it honestly has to be, man. We have to look at what's happening out in the market so we can position our own product in a different way, you know? At the end of the day, there's enough market share for everyone, but a guy who's in the weight loss niche is still competing with another

guy who's in the weight loss niche. So, even though the market is technically infinite, people are still competitors. So man, based on that, there are some people who simply don't want their VSL to be seen. And why don't they want that? 'cause they don't want other guys going through this exact process of figuring out what they're running and Analyzing it, you know? Except, we have to do it, right. And because of that, at VTurb, we actually provide features to try and block that from happening. So for example, we have a feature called the traffic filter,

where we try to route the VSL. If a guy accesses it from one place, we send him to a decoy VSL. If he accesses it through Instagram, we send him to the original VSL, to try and confuse people doing the research. Because look, guys, those of you in the info-product space, you have no idea the huge mess it is with people cloning VSLs. People just rip them, download them, and run them exactly as is. Now, we aren't talking about stealing here, obviously, right? I mean, obviously!. But man, these roadblocks do exist out there. People set

up cloakers, they set up all this other stuff, this and that. And like I said, inside VTurb, we have this exact feature. It's gonna pop up on the screen Right now, the traffic filter feature, okay? So man, looking at the infoproduct market today, right? I know that in the nutra space, this is extremely common, like, people defending their funnels. Using a cloaker on the VSL, a cloaker on the link, whatever. I mean, sometimes a guy will run an AB test with three different VSL leads, and he purposely chooses to run a slightly worse lead that

still gets a ROI, so that the guy who tries to clone him ends up getting confused. So how does that play out in the infoproduct market? Do people understand this is an issue? does this even happen? Are people already defending themselves? And if they are defending themselves, is there a method you use to try and actually find the correct funnel? Or has this not really hit yet because it's a different market, and people there Just don't have that toxic culture of going in and cloning everything, you know? Doing those shady things that the hardcore direct

response guys—well, some of them, not all—tend to do. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that specific dynamic, you know? Man, look, honestly I'd say that about six months ago this was a thing, but it was still pretty rare to see, right? But right now, with this insane surge in VSLs, with so many experts putting them out, a lot of people are just straight up copying VSLs from their peers and from others, you know? And bro, I've personally had one of my own VSLs ripped off. I mean, Guto Galamba's VSL was copied,

you know? Oh damn! Dude, that's insane. Yeah. And then we had a whole situation with that. I mean, the team even Tried bringing in the company's lawyers, but it's just a much more complicated issue to deal with, you know? It's a pain, right? Yeah. I'd say that in the infoproduct market today, for the guys running VSLs, only a minority knows how to protect themselves. Like, a minority of the minority. And usually, guys who know that came from the black hat space. Yeah, 'cause they've been through it. Exactly. But the vast majority today is just clueless.

They're just out there completely exposed, and that's it. Exactly. And that's why that specific VTurb feature is absolute gold for these guys, because they just don't know. And you know, if you walk up to a regular expert and ask, "Hey, do you know what a cloaker is?" He has no idea, you know? Yeah, I know. I mean, these guys, they just have completely different skill sets, right? This whole idea of building a defense isn't really their thing. And man, look, Here's what I actually think. I'm gonna make a prediction right now, okay? Like, I think

that with the info-product market the way it is right now, with VSLs getting so popular and talked about, we're gonna see a massive increase in people just ripping off copy. People are gonna realize how easy it is to clone it. And honestly, I think these experts have no idea that this is just a reality of the market, and there's really no way to— bro, even Netflix gets pirated, right? Netflix! You can't prevent it. There's no anti-download script or whatever that will stop it, because in the worst-case scenario, the guy just screen-records the video, and there's

nothing you can do about it. So it's just something you have to learn to live with, unfortunately. You can reduce it significantly, like I said, by trying to hide it and stuff. But I think The guys coming from the hardcore direct response background, they're already so used to it that they just go, "Ah man, whatever, screw it." Like, "Oh well, they ripped it off, it is what it is." I mean, they try to do what they can, but they don't lose sleep over it. On the flip side, I think the crowd, especially the expert -

'cause, dude, when he puts out a hit and sees, like: "Oh my god, this is a video pulling in six figures a month, this thing is gonna change my life, my family's life." And then some other expert comes along and copies him. Man, I think that's the kind of stuff that makes guys want to start throwing punches. Like, bumping into each other at some networking event where they want to kill each other, you know? That happened back in the product launch days, man. People were copying narratives from each other. It happens, right. So if it

happened in the expert space with Product launches, it's gonna happen with VSLs. Except with a VSL, it gets more blatant, right? Because the guy is copying the copy itself, the mechanism, the angle, and the format depending on the situation. So it's one of those things where you have to stay on your toes. And I do think it's a valid concern to have. But that's exactly why it's crucial not to depend on just one single funnel, you know? I mean, that ties right into our core business premise here, right? so, is a VSL incredibly important? Yes.

Do you need one? Absolutely, you definitely need to go heavy on it. But let's say the guy gets cloned, and his VSL stops performing—then what? Is he gonna starve to death? You gotta do something. Exactly, you have to start stacking up those other funnels so you can go harvest the other fruit off the trees, right? Man, and I really think that's the exact solution right there, bro. Honestly, I would simply say you need to develop a solid backend. You know? Because it's highly unlikely some guy is gonna clone your entire backend. It's pretty tough for

him to figure out, like, "Oh, can I actually deliver this mentorship offer? I probably don't even have an expert who knows how to fulfill this." So there are definitely gonna be other barriers in place. But look, at the end of the day, I really think it's almost impossible to escape getting your copy ripped off once you start standing out and actually scaling, right? Yeah, fair enough, man. And dude, I honestly get happy when my copy gets ripped off. Like, it's kinda cool, right? I mean, it shows you're a benchmark. Yeah, exactly. Like, I get happy

about it. My expert not so much. Man, the way I imagine it—just trying to have a little empathy for the expert Here, considering they don't understand what's going on behind the scenes, right. They might think, "Wow, this thing we built is incredible." And then when they see the results from the funnel, they see a truckload of money rolling in. And bro, I honestly don't know how much money these typical experts are making, but I'd guess your average expert isn't pulling in fifty or a hundred grand a month. feel like it's a minority that reaches that

level, and an even smaller fraction ever hits seven figures. But once they put out a VSL, they see it works, it changes their lives, and then this cloning stuff starts happening, I think they are gonna get pissed off, bro. Like, incredibly mad. I mean, the direct response guy already gets mad. And that's considering he just threw something together, maybe he slapped an AI avatar on there, and he still goes, "Ah, that guy stole my copy!" Imagine Having your entire business ripped off, man... It's wild. another thing you mentioned about your analysis process—when you're looking at

those top VSLs, you mentioned that you analyze something called the "invisible structure", right. Like, for the people who don't know what that is, let's say, a guy watching us who's a co-producer, an expert, whatever, and he has no clue what an invisible structure means. How would you go about explaining that to him? Alright. So for any co-producer or strategist listening, there's always a reason why a winning piece of copy works, right? And the way I see, it basically comes down to three pillars: format, message, and structure. So every solid piece of copy relies on those

three categories. And which one do I think is the most important? It's the structure of the message, right?. So we have a standard framework for writing a VSL, which consists of the lead, the Story, the mechanism, and the offer. But for beginners, that's a whole new universe. Like, the lead alone is a universe. There are endless ways to do it and the same goes for the offer. There are literally entire books about it. Exactly. So, man, what are you gonna do? You're gonna grab a VSL and map out its overarching structure. You identify the lead,

the story, the mechanism, and the offer, but then you look deeper into the substructure, right?. You notice, okay, right here the guy dropped a massive promise, here he shattered a huge objection, here he teased the solution, and here he brought in a solid testimonial. You know?. It's reverse-engineering the path. Think of it as a template. Back in 2021 or 2022, people were selling product launch messaging templates like crazy—stuff like CPL templates. So any co-producer already Knows there's a proven framework for a CPL, for example. The invisible structure of a VSL is exactly that. In really

simple terms: it's the underlying framework that a specific, validated VSL used, and you're gonna follow that same framework, you know? I'd say that's pretty much it. And from there, there are different ways for you to adapt and modify that framework. Like, back in the day, before we had AI, how did I do it? I would go into Google Docs and open two tabs. One was Framework A, the breakdown I analyzed, and on the other, I'd be writing my own VSL. Like, "Okay, here is the promise, so I'm gonna drop my own." That's how I would

handle it. Yeah, so you're telling me that this concept of invisible structure... actually who did you learn that from? Oh man, mmm... Say his name, bro... out Loud. Let's son him here. Let's see if we're thinking of the same person. Man, the first guy I learned the invisible structure from—it was two guys, okay? Peter Kell... Really? And Vakuda, bro. Really, man? Damn! Wasn't it Tiagão? Was not Filemon? It wasn't Filemon. Damn, Tiagão, look at that. I learned a lot from Filemon, but not that... Dude, look at that. Hey, Tiagão, these info-product guys are totally messing

with us, man. Holy sh—! Oh, I can't swear. Sorry about that, guys—I mean:damn! The info-product crowd is going straight to the ultimate source, man, you can't do that, bro... I'll tell you that Vakuda. Hold on - Vakuda? Yeah man. He had a newsletter back in the day, and he sent out an email talking all about it. I thought it was super cool. Super cool, right? But do you know where they learned it from? Man, not really. I have a good guess, but I'm not gonna say it because I'm not sure It's right. C'mon bro... A

guy named Alen, or something like that. Alen Sultanic. Yeah, that's the exact guy, that guy right there, he's the ultimate source, yeah. But bro, I honestly prefer your style better, alright man? I'd much rather see you studying John Carlton's "Kickass Copywriting Secrets" than Alen Sultanic, you know. Shoutout to Alen. I don't know if he's ever gonna end up watching this. He's got a Facebook group, guys, you should join his group, okay? It's called Nothing Held Back, and man, that stuff is super advanced. So for you info-product guys watching, if you're a total rookie, like, "Oh,

I'm just a little kitten out here, I've never even built a VSL, I just ran my happy little product launch with my four-part video series," and you didn't even do a themed launch or whatever... just doing this is already gonna completely blow your mind. I mean, it's Gonna be absolutely wild. But if you really want to understand the hardcore stuff that the heavy hitters study, then man, you go to Tiagão, alright? He's basically the top guy translating that in the Brazilian market today, I think. And one of his main sources is Alen Sultanic, who runs

that Nothing Held Back group, and he also wrote that book, "Automatic Clients," you know? Yeah. It's really interesting. But essentially, from what I understand, you're diving in to figure out why they chose that specific word, that exact sentence, or that paragraph. What are they actually trying to say there? Like, "Oh, here's a promise, a curiosity hook, a piece of proof." So in your copy, you also drop in a promise, a curiosity hook, and a piece of proof. And you're gonna take that, and we basically use this invisible structure to fully adapt the overall outline, so

that we end up with two pieces of copy that Roughly follow that exact same pattern you're talking about. In the exact same order. Is that correct? That's it. And let me ask you a question, bro. Do you know why that actually works? Like, have you ever stopped to think about why if I follow the exact same pattern, it's gonna work? Man, it's... I actually have a theory about this... Well, let's look at it. Human beings are predictable, right? They're highly predictable. So if it already worked, people have already bought into that thing, and the chances

of it working again are huge. So, my perception of why this works is based on human predictability, you know? Like, let's take the offers from Empiricus as an example. Those old-school sales letters... they used to launch a ton of offers with those revelation angles, like, "Oh, Lula did this," or "The president of Brazil did that," you know? That kind of Wild stuff. So it was extremely predictable. I actually worked there, bro. I wrote copy for them—well, no, I only wrote the "Forbidden Stocks". And man, those guys are a piece of work... They took my copy,

a solid fifty pages, blasted it to the backend, and it sold nothing. But they changed my headline. If they had kept it, it would've crushed. They didn't trust me. Damn! Yeah, and we saw how that turned out. But man, I mean, this is how I see it in my head, alright? Like, what exactly is desire? What is a market? Like, a market is simply the sum of desires, right? I mean, it's the sum of private desires. When a lot of people have the desire to lose weight, the weight loss market emerges. We can sell to

those People at scale, so that right there is the market, right? And those people share the exact same pattern, that's what defines a niche. Do you get it? So they want the exact same thing, they want to lose weight, and they have more or less the same behaviours, with more or less the same problems. and with more or less the same goals, right? I say "more or less" because one person wants to lose weight to put on a bikini, another wants to lose weight for her wedding, another wants to lose weight to feel attractive so

her husband stays with her, and another for health reasons. So there are certain things in common, but it's not everything. So for a specific subset of those people, in a sales conversation, if we're talking to them, since they have the exact same desires, in the exact same situation, like the woman who wants to lose weight to wear a bikini at the Beach... They're gonna have the exact same objections in the exact same order. And that's exactly why this whole invisible structure thing actually works, because we're basically gonna take that specific segment of the niche and

crush their objections in the exact order they pop up. And since it's always the same order for that segment, the same structure still works perfectly. I mean, that's the justification I came up with in my head, right? It makes sense, bro. Yeah, in my mind it does... It makes a lot of sense... We take the same structure and crush the objections in their exact order for a specific group. Exactly. Yeah, but that copy right there, for the woman who wants to lose weight for the bikini, it's gonna have a structure that works for her, which

won't be the same one for the woman who wants to lose weight for health. Exactly. She's Gonna have a different objection. Maybe something like, "Oh, is this gonna kill me? Any side effects?" Yeah. The bikini woman is different. That's why I look at copy from those three angles: the structure, the message, and the format. Because today, especially in this world of video, it's something that—I mean, you gotta have all three things together, right? Back in the day, it was more about the—well, actually, I think all three things have always gone hand in hand, you know?

The message, the structure, and the format. Because if we look at those old-school sales letters, then the magalogs, and then the new formats—I mean, they're all just branches of the exact same thing, you know? Yeah, man. I gotta say, I found it really elegant, bro, calling it format, structure, and message. I found it interesting. And I actually agree with that. We can, I mean, it's a brand new way of looking at it. Like, I had two other ways of looking at it, but that one, I'll definitely reflect on that a little bit later. Anyway man,

that's cool. so once we have the scaled VSL from the market, we have its invisible structure, we found a communication style that actually converts that specific audience super well... And I can apply the exact order of that communication to my VSL, and combine that with the information you gathered in the download call with the expert about their beliefs, their method, their mechanism, so we already have a solid idea of what the final VSL is gonna look like. Obviously, we haven't written it out or done any of that yet, but we'll at least have a really

good idea. you also mentioned here, man, that when it comes to studying the market, you Actually study old-school copy, and you look in there to find potential mechanisms you can maybe recycle, or even hooks. And man, I think that is extremely powerful, because, like, there's so much good stuff from the past that we could literally be using in our business today, right? I mean, how important is this in the entire process? Do you think it's like, just a detail that's like, "oh, whatever," or is it like, actually extremely important? Or maybe is it just somewhere

in the middle, you know? The way I see it, bro, back when I was writing, this was extremely important, because my process was basically just this. I swear to you guys, that was literally it. I'm telling you, that was it. It's not... it's nothing like— Wow, João's dropping his secrets... I've said this a thousand times, right? People already know it. There's no reason to lie to you guys, because today I own VTurb, I don't make money writing copy Anymore. So that's really how it was. All I did was take those old-school copies, I'd do literally

like you said, take either the hook or the mechanism, bring it to the present day and plug it into today's structure. And it worked incredibly well, bro. Especially the hook. Mainly getting ideas to grab attention. So how important is this? Man, that is incredibly important to me. I would say... about 90% important, right? Holy sh– Because there's a... I mean, damn! Like, I carry a few principles with me, you know. And, a really strong principle for me is: the older the problem, the older the solution, right? So, man, if I know I'm gonna, let's say,

put together a weight loss offer, and whether you like it or not, the mechanisms repeat themselves most of the Time. So, I'm gonna look at the guy who's the Michael Jordan of this stuff, the absolute god of the game, you know? I'm gonna see exactly what that guy did, bro. And sold an insane amount, you know? And I'll hunt down a way to adapt it to my communication, even if it's like: "Oh, Johab, but maybe I can't use his mechanism." Man, but there's, let's say, a hook, a specific line the guy used that's just so

good, a really solid analogy that I can use in my own copy, you know? Yeah, you'll definitely find something. Yeah, I'm gonna find something, bro. So I honor the fathers of the game, I honor the fundamentals, right? I think that's incredibly important. Especially because one thing I think is cool for the audience to understand, is that those OG sales letters, they were completely handcrafted. So they were made to be absolutely flawless in every detail. Every single comma in there was Reviewed like five or six times, because there was a hard cost to actually print that

out and mail it to a person's house. yeah Back when we did direct mail, like, an actual physical letter, if I wrote a piece of copy and just one word didn't fit on the page, then I'd need a whole new page. I mean, man, you just doubled your traffic cost, right? So we couldn't just waste space there, because it could completely screw up the whole campaign. so every single comma in there had to earn its spot, you know? Today with the internet, it's different. If you make a half-hour video or a 10-hour one, it's basically

the same. Like, you got a 5,000-word copy, and another guy got lazy and didn't edit it, so it's sitting at 7,500. I mean, it just doesn't matter, you're not gonna be drastically penalized for it. So those old-school sales letters, they were incredibly well-written, man. Modern copy is way lazier, but there's a lot more of it out there. Which actually makes it harder to figure out what's really working. Those old-school pieces are way better written because of that, and they're a lot more scarce too, there's way less copy out there. Yeah, exactly. And man, that's a

really great point you just brought up, because, for example, today, I mean, I see the copywriter today as an architect of words, so to speak, because writing itself has just become a commodity, you know? Like, AI can pretty much do that for you now, right? So what's our role? Our job is to look at that output and see what's good, what's garbage, what I need to cut, and what I'm keeping in my copy. I mean, I actually use AI a lot for writing. But the way I use AI is a bit different, right, because I

ask it to help draft an argument, or maybe just improve an argument. I still write the core copy by hand first, but then I ask it to keep improving it, like: "Hey, make this argument better, or tweak this specific part right here." But for me to be able to calibrate that and know if it's actually good or not, I need to feed my brain with really good inputs, right? That's why the fundamentals are so important. And still on this topic we just got into right now, I think, I mean, man, my mindset on copy shifted

completely when I first started consuming Gary Bencivenga's stuff, you know? It really changed things for me, like that equation he teaches I actually made a video on Instagram about it and you even left a comment on it, remember? Oh, yeah Yeah, about the persuasion formula...I mean, the persuasion equation. And not Just that, right, but his copy too. You look at his copy, and it's like, just a ton of proof, you know? Like, a lot of solid 'reasons why', a lot of proof elements, and I think today, where we are right now in the market, speaking

of an expert... I mean, if you have an expert who's gonna run a VSL, the most important thing you actually gotta chase is proof, right?. You need to have so much proof about the methodology you're delivering, and the mechanism you're currently building. Because I feel like that's the main differentiator nowadays. Sure, just having the expert themselves is already an element of proof. But I still don't think that's strong enough on its own, you know? Because someone else can easily come along who's also a real expert and has their own proof elements. So you need an

entire arsenal of different types of proof to use in your VSL. Like, a clear Demonstration proof here. An analogy proof there. maybe a different 'reason why' angle over here. I mean, in my opinion proof is just a copywriting fundamental, you know?At least in the VSLs I write, it's absolutely essential. You gotta have it, bro, and you need a ton of it. Bro, that right there...I mean, what you're saying right now, That is the exact reason I asked you at the beginning if the quality of the "one belief" was a deciding factor. Because the more proof

backing up that one belief, the easier it becomes to write the copy, you know? Like, if your expert claims all you gotta do to lose weight is jump up and down three times, bro, you're gonna have to bust your ass to actually pull that off, right? Yeah, proving that will be tough, dude. Exactly, man. I mean, that would be extremely complicated. And do you Remember what Bencivenga's persuasion equation was? Man, I think it's a problem... a proposition, a solution.... it's problem... I mean, they're all P's, right? It's "problem", "promise"...like, problem plus promise... plus, I think,

it's proposition. Yeah, I think that's it. plus proposition, equals persuasion, right? Yeah, something like that. wasn't there a fourth element? Or was that just it? Proof, man, we missed proof! It's problem, promise, proof, proposition, and persuasion. Oh yeah! we missed proof, which takes care of the logical mind. Which we were just talking about. Proof is the most important one, by far, and then when it's time to list it, we just forget it. Look how crazy that is! and doesn't that remind you a little bit of the Four P's structure? Yeah, but that's essentially it, man.

It's a problem plus promise, plus proof, plus proposition, equals persuasion. That right there is the equation. But do you happen to remember what you gotta do to make the equation even more badass? Like, even stronger? No, I don't. There are the U's he puts in there, don't you remember that? Not really, man. Look, if we have a problem, we make a promise, show some proof, and make a proposition, then we get persuasion, right? I mean, if we can actually pull that off. And he also mentions in there, that the absolute most important element of them

all is proof, which is also the hardest one to actually manufacture. Like, anyone can promise: "Oh, you're gonna make a billion dollars." But who can actually prove that? Anyone can just say: "Oh, I can teach you how to be a pro Soccer player." But it's one thing if João Campos is saying it—where's the proof for that? It's a completely different thing if Neymar says it, 'cause he's got way more proof. But then he says that if you want to make the equation more effective, you gotta add the U's. So it becomes: an Urgent problem, with

a Unique promise, an Unquestionable proof, and a User-friendly proposition, that is a proposition that's easy to say yes to. I mean, essentially, it's something irresistible, you know? And it's so true, right bro? Like, an urgent problem, with a unique promise, unquestionable proof, and an user-friendly proposition. And then, as he says, the whole thing just becomes absolutely insane, you know?. but bro, where did you actually see this, out of curiosity? Man, in that book I think it's "100 Seminar" or something like that, right? Damn, bro, wow! I'm kind of a geek for this kind of stuff...

And did you actually watch the seminar too? Yeah, I watched it. Got the subtitled version, all perfectly set up. And I have the book too. Yeah, it's a bundle. There's the book and his swipe file too. And he's got a newsletter out now too. Yeah, right, there's a different one now. Guys, look—hey Nick, drop this in the intro and say: "Guys, skip to this exact minute of the podcast"—if you can even do that, I'm not sure if that's possible. But here's what you guys are gonna do. If you really want to help me out here,

alright? Here's the move. Nick, put Gary Bencivenga's email up on the screen right now, please. Put it in the comments too, alright? And you guys are gonna send an email to Gary Bencivenga saying something like: "Hey Gary, how's it going? "Please, go on the VTurb podcast, we would really love to listen to you." You guys send him an email so I can interview Gary Bencivenga. Like, bro, that would be My dream. That would be insane! That'd be like beating the game. Bro, I already interviewed David Deutsch I saw, dude! David Deutsch, what a legend. David

Deutsch, you know? A legend. But Gary Bencivenga, man, wow, I think... like, it would be mind-blowing, right? It would be simply mind-blowing, man. Insane, I'm even tearing up over here... I actually just teared up, guys. But hey, João, just one point going back to that specific part about proof. since we come a bit from the product launch space, we have a really easy time generating proof, so to speak. There's a strategy I used to use, well, I actually still use it today, to gather proof from the students inside the offers we're running, which is called

R2X. Have you ever heard of it, man? Bro, to me that sounds like that droid from Star Wars. But I think that one is R2 something, right? I mean, it's basically a testimonial contest, dude. Is it RDX? R2X. It's like, you write an email, send it to your list, or shoot a quick video On WhatsApp, setting up a contest where, let's say, the top three testimonials win a prize or something like that. That is really good for generating solid proof. And there's a template for how the person should record that testimonial video. I'll share that

template with the audience here at VTurb too. And this is super important because, there's a concern, right? I mean, everything we just talked about regarding the offer and all that is awesome. But if the customer doesn't get results, bro, your tree doesn't just stop producing fruit—like, it gets chopped down and people set it on fire, you know? so you really have to care about the actual results your students are getting. Because that guy is incredibly important for the long run. He's the one who's gonna buy again, keep paying you, and pay just to be next

to you. Do you get it? Because the guy who comes in completely cold, lands on your VSL, and buys your product, he's gonna move up in his level of awareness about you until he reaches a point where he just becomes a true fan right. Like, the guy now is your fan. So, let's say, in your ascension funnel, you plug in an in-person event for your expert. then you already have a sold-out event right there, you know? Like, if you build that front-end properly and the front-end product is actually generating results, your event will be packed,

man. You just have to make the offer, and they'll want to be around you. And it's not even about the content anymore; it's about the proximity, and the deep reciprocity those guys will feel. Man, you changed the lives of a whole group of people, and when it's time to sell a high-ticket offer, that is pure gold. It becomes so easy once you earn that level of trust from someone. So, go Out there and mine proof from your audience, okay? I love that, bro. Yeah, if you can actually share that template, I'd really appreciate it. Guys,

it's gonna pop up on the screen for you right now, so just follow the instructions, you can figure it out. Man, the last thing you mentioned that I wrote down right here, is that when you're studying the market, you also look at the type of content that's currently trending out there. So you're looking at all that content, and you ask yourself, what's the actual information in there, what are they really talking about, what's the core idea? "Oh, is it GLP-1, what exactly is it?" like, "is it technique A, or the thing B?" And then you

also went ahead and mentioned attention frameworks, right? So, what specific method is this particular piece of content using to actually grab people's attention out There? And finally, you said that you look at the different formats too. Like, formats that are really standing out, meaning they're trending right now in viral content today. So, man, can you talk a little bit more about that? Why are you looking for those specific things? What are you gonna do with all that? Alright. Regarding the attention framework... If a headline is driving clicks, and it's working, then it's clearly grabbing attention.

And what is our main job with our sales video? It's to guarantee that the play button gets clicked, that the person will actually watch it. So, I'll take an attention framework from a headline that's already working, right? I mean, there are a lot of copywriters out there that literally just read headlines from gossip websites. And that's a great strategy, it gives you a Really solid foundation. Like, they'll pull up the top 50 gossip sites in the world, and the guy just sits there spending, let's say, two hours a day looking at that stuff just to

build a mental swipe file, you know? That's his excuse to catch up on the gossip. Yeah, like, I call them attention frameworks. I look at what's out there... and then I figure out what the patterns are inside those attention frameworks, you know? Like, sometimes the headlines are like: "Oh, use this right here, do this over here." Or maybe they're headlines with more of a big reveal tone, or headlines framed as content, like: "I tested the new poor man's Mounjaro for 21 days and look at what happened to my body. Watch the video right here." So

these are validated attention frameworks that I go out and bring into my own headlines, and depending on the situation, I can even turn them into a hook for my lead, or an Angle for my lead. So, I use that specific information somewhere else. Got it? Now, the format, I mean, bro, it's no use having a great copy if people don't stop to watch it, right? And nowadays, we are constantly out there fighting to get that click from people. So what actually stops them? What makes people stop their scroll? It's the format. Nowadays it's all about

it. So I want to understand what kind of formatting trends people are consuming. Like, Is it a more lo-fi format or is it an Instagram Q&A box? Is it an interview format or maybe some kind of challenge? 'cause I'm gonna produce my own ads following exactly that. And there's an absolute goldmine right here, man, which is this: the most important trigger when we talk about this front-end of attention, the one I consider the Biggest, is familiarity. like, tying back to that dialect thing I mentioned at the beginning, you know? I consider it incredibly important it's

pure gold. And I research that while I'm figuring out the format. It's in the core of the content. Like, how do I know if something is building familiarity? It all comes down to the level of connection it creates within that specific crowd. But like, this stuff can sound a little abstract with just me explaining it, right? I mean, familiarity, building connection... it's like trying to break down a big idea, it just gets way too philosophical. So how do I actually quantify that? In the Instagram comments, I look at the likes those comments are getting, and

I use that as a hook in my ad. It works so well. Because that's familiarity. Like Right now, we're in a World Cup environment, right? The World Cup is happening. What was a massive familiarity point we saw in, I don't know, the first or second game of the Cup? Putting Endrick in the game, right? You'd check the comments and see: "Ancelotti didn't put Endrick in—that's why they tied Morocco." 60 thousand likes, 80 thousand likes, 100 thousand likes on a single comment. "Just let the kid play." So, that built familiarity, you know? When you bring that

to the very front of your ad, man, you're literally starting the ad speaking a message that has already crossed the minds of 100 thousand people. So it's already highly familiar. The familiarity I'm looking for is right there in the comments and the likes they get. That's really interesting, dude. I use that a lot. That's why the expert actually validates the content format. Because, look, if you take a viral expert who has a ton of likes, bro, just look at their comments. There will be so many ad hook angles in there, built on familiarity, like, the

audience itself is talking about it and just handing it over to you, right? Very interesting. Super important, man. I use it a lot. That is really cool, man. You mentioned that you use this approach a ton in your creatives. I just don't know if you also apply that same logic to the actual VSLs too. I use it heavily in the creatives, you know, specifically in the creative hooks. Do you ever match the format of the VSL with something related to the creatives you're seeing? Or at least the lead? For the lead, yeah. But for the

VSL, no. Because the VSL has very specific phases The person needs to walk through. If I put out a VSL that's way too funny or gimmicky, it just won't sell. It might get crazy high retention, but it won't convert. I understand that during the mechanism part, right in the middle of our sales argument where we get a little more technical to explain things, I need them in a classroom-like environment. I mean, an environment of deep focus so they can actually retain what I'm saying, you know? Now, the initial part is a bit more playful, where

I just need to grab their attention and start breaking down those barriers. So, the beginning of my VSL has to be really enjoyable. Later on, it's fine, because it gets into the more boring or dense stuff. So I understand there are different moments. That's why I only use that format for the lead. Like, in the lead, or the micro-lead, I'll apply that format, but not in the entire VSL. Because I understand that Yeah, that's really important, keeping the person in the . right emotion, in the right part. That's precisely why each part works within the

VSL. By the way, guys, Johab actually decided to give away some exclusive training resources right here for the VTurb audience so you can really dive much deeper and just get even more great value from this podcast episode. So, for instance, he actually unlocked a full training on how to build VSLs with experts, the exact briefing model he uses to structure his very own VSLs, and also, guys, he released a massive swipe file with real VSLs of his that are ready for you to analyze, study, and model for your projects so you can just apply them,

make money, and truly reach your goals today. So if you're already a VTurb customer, this material is already unlocked for you inside your account. Just head over to Academy, click on Exclusive Resources, and you'll see the course right there. Just follow the quick tutorial on screen. But if you're not a customer yet, become one today. Click the link in the description, set up your account to unlock these materials, and get access to all this content Johab prepared for you, alright? Now let's jump back into the episode. Alright, man. So, like... after doing that whole call

to download process, studying the expert, and after analyzing the market in step two, what do you actually do next? What exactly is step three for us to build our VSL? Okay, so... the third step here is to organize what I personally like to call the "Architecture of hope". An "Architecture of hope"? Wow, man, you are truly ready to become some kind of guru. Look at you, already coming up with custom names for all your concepts. It's because I do a lot of mentoring, you know. In the... Oh, so you already are one. Yeah, and it

really has to be like, um... something easy to explain. The "Architecture of Hope". Yeah so, In order for the sale to actually happen like, I first need to win the person's trust, I need to instill a genuine sense of hope in them that this solution will solve their specific problem. And um... the "Architecture of Hope" consists of a few elements that go into the mechanism of our VSL. So . like, what exactly is included in this "Architecture of Hope"? There's the irrational desire that we talked about at the beginning. From that irrational desire, I have

the real root cause of the problem, which is like... one of the pillars of the "Architecture of Hope". I have my mechanism, right, which is the real solution right there, you know? So these are the core foundations of the pillars of the "Architecture of Hope". And then like, I also have a promise, a promise within that. So in the end there are four elements. So, I defined my irrational desire back there during my research. After that, I'll define the true problem. So like, what's the root cause? Why can't the person lose weight? Why is it

that the person can't reduce that "Cortisol Belly", like in Guto's example? What's the real root? "Cortisol Belly"? "Cortisol Belly". Does he actually use that term over there? Yeah, I came up with that term, you know? "Cortisol Belly". Which is what? It's the guy's cortisol and testosterone being out of balance, right? Low testosterone, high Cortisol. So that's the real root cause of the problem within the "Architecture of Hope". And then I move on to my solution part, right, which most of the time is just the inverse of the real root cause of the problem. So if

that's the problem, I flip it, and I have my solution. So up to this point, there's really nothing all that different. What I like to do in this part of the "Architecture of Hope" is to name my mechanism. I like to give it a name that already hints at some benefit, a name that's easy for the person to catch on to. I don't really consider it a catchy name like people say, you know? I don't know if I'd call it that, but the name of the mechanism itself. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be

the main hook the guy uses later on down the line. So, in Most of the VSLs I do, I have this name that'll already suggest some benefit, suggest something towards result. In Guto's case, what was the name? It's the "Hormonal Reset". And the VSL I made for Wendell, what was the name on that one? The "Neural Bug". So I give it a name, a name that . resonates... The "Neural Bug"? Man, you got Wendell to record himself saying that on camera? For sure it converted, man. I really did, man. It definitely did, if we find

it funny it's because it converted. The "Neural Bug", yeah... The "Neural Bug", that's awesome dude. I did one, man, that... man, what was the name? It was something like, "Procrastinating Bacteria", something along those lines. Really? you did the bacteria one? And man, it actually pulled in seven figures in sales, okay? It did. And the ticket was over 600 reais for that VSL. "Procrastinating Bacteria"... It was something like that, "Procrastinating Bacteria", I can't Remember now... Bro, it's wild when you put the word bacteria in the mechanism, works like magic, man. Bacteria works so well, dude. It

really works like crazy. There was a fat-eating bacteria too that... I think Derick did one with weight-loss bacteria, right? For sure. Derick must have made tons of bacteria variants... Shout-out to Derick, you're a legend. Yeah, what Derick has done with bacteria in the digital market is insane. So basically, you have the irrational desire, the true underlying problem, the overall solution, then the core mechanism, right, with its own catchy name, and then the promise. And... like, let me give you an example. Let's say we're going to make a VSL for a guy who wants to pass

a civil service exam. Yeah. And, what is his problem? He is constantly feeling insecure about whether he will actually know which questions are going to be on the exam. And what is the Real problem? So, like, the guy ends up failing the civil service exam that he wants, because he doesn't know which questions will be on the test, and . most prep courses teach things that won't even show up, creating even more confusion. What does he need? He needs the "Mental Answer Key". So, I already see the mechanism with a name that's simple to explain

like... a "Mental Answer Key". You get to the exam, you pull from your "Mental Answer Key". And you already have all the questions to pass. Then comes the promise. For what? That you will know every question that will be on the civil service exam of your dreams, and actually manage to pass. So, I consider the combination of these elements makes it simple for me to write the "Architecture of Attention". And then there's the "One Belief" that Comes into play. "Architecture of Hope". Yeah... the "Architecture of Hope", my bad There's also the "One Belief" as well?

But isn't the "One Belief" basically the sum of the first three we have here, right? Or no? Yeah, It's the sum, exactly. I just organize it to keep it structured, like, irrational desire goes here, mechanism goes here. But I build the One Belief. I organize it so that starting right from there, I can write down all the logical points and write out the mechanism. Okay, can you explain to the folks at home who might not know, what exactly is this "One Belief". Ok. Or as we call it in Portuguese, "Única Crença". The "One Belief". Ok,

so . like, imagine the following, right? If you look back at how things were, anyone who has been around the copy market for a while will know that the whole market was built on what? That you Really need to have a great idea, you absolutely must have a big idea. And that resonated within the launch market. For every single launch, you absolutely had to have a big idea for that, you had to know exactly what the main idea behind that launch was. But then comes a copywriter from my home state, Evaldo Albuquerque, who created... Yeah.

He's from Piauí. He's from Piauí man, that's right. He's awesome. And . he made it famous, right? The "One Belief" thing, but I think Russell Brunson mentions it too, if I'm not mistaken in- The first time I saw that concept was in Todd Brown's book, "E5". Which, interestingly enough, guys, there is a Todd Brown podcast right here on the VTurb channel. And... like, that is the only piece of information that you are going to . Worry about ensuring that your audience accepts it as the absolute truth right There. So, instead of working on a philosophical

idea, you are going to focus on a core belief that provides every possible path to make the person actually believe in it. So it is the "One Belief". I personally like to call it the golden thread running right through your VSL. So it is essentially the guiding thread that is going to drive absolutely everything forward. Yeah, man, let me explore this concept a little bit, this stage you call the "Hope Architecture", right? I mean "Architecture of Hope. But . right before we dive into that, I really want to talk about that one core belief. I

am going to explain exactly how I think about it, and then I want you to explain to me what your whole perspective is on it, okay? The way I personally perceive this one fundamental belief, this single belief, Is that we really have to, I mean, we spend the entire duration of our copy just trying to, like, what is our ultimate objective here, right? We are trying to sell the product. And in order to successfully sell that product, the person absolutely has to believe, deep down, that the product actually works. And for a person to believe

that the product works, they have to believe that it does something that delivers the result. So, if we put this belief in the person's head, just this "One Belief", that individual is going to want to purchase the product; they will truly crave and desire the product, and the only reason they might not actually buy it is if we happen to present the wrong kind of offer. For instance, let's say a person is, . like, perhaps they are struggling with being overweight. Now, if that individual truly believes that by Consuming this VTurb water, they'll lose weight,

if we convince them: "Man, what you need to do is drink VTurb water. If you do this, drink this water right here, you'll lose weight." If they believe that, they'll want to drink the water to lose weight, right? But obviously, if this bottle of water right here costs one million reais, they simply won't buy it. However, if it is twelve easy installments of just 9,90, with a full 30-day money-back guarantee, well, maybe they actually will buy it, you know? So, the core one belief, in principle, is exactly this: what belief will make them want my

product? And then I follow up with the irresistible offer, you see? And there's this little template: doing this is the key to your desire. And this is entirely possible through my specific solution. And so, if the person actually Believes that drinking this VTurb water is the key to losing weight—that simply drinking the VTurb water is the exact key to shedding those pounds, and that this is fully possible with this specific water right here, they are definitely going to want to buy this water. Then I drop my irresistible offer. If they believe that, having a "Mental

Answer Key" is the way to passing the civil service exam, and that this is possible with such and such method, they will want that method to get the answer key to pass the exam. So that's how I see this whole thing, you know? It operates like a core belief that we spend the entire duration of the copy trying to install right at the very end of it. And after we've installed this belief, we can finally move to the last section of the copy, which is the close. So, what do you agree with and what do

you disagree with about what I Just said? Man, I agree with everything, because it is exactly that. It is precisely that point. I genuinely believe that it is the single most important part of the entire VSL. I would say that if you mess up the "One Belief", man, you screw up the entire copy. If it is something that you simply cannot prove right there, or if you are attacking the person's irrational desires in a wrong way, or um... let's say, if your mechanism is just confusing as hell, you are never going to be able to

explain it the right way. You know, it is funny because it is a phrase that appears simple, but it is incredibly complex in its underlying conception... is truly a complex matter. So... like, I would argue that the difference between a seasoned, senior Copywriter and someone who is more junior, when it comes to the conception of a VSL structure, is knowing exactly how to map that out effectively. If he maps that out really well, because the, the process that comes after that is very methodical, right? It's very, like, step-by-step ,just to be able to follow along.

So I think the most complex part would be that one. And I agree with this line of thought you brought up. It makes sense right? Dan Kennedy actually talks about this. That you don't need to make . like, that your audience believes in everything, you just need your audience to believe in that, you know, your solution is the . is the best one for them, right? I think that's what he says. Without a shadow of a doubt man, he actually has a book titled "Making Them Believe," which is going to appear right there on your

screen, and . like, Man, he gave this incredible example of a total quack, a completely fraudulent doctor, who actually claimed that... and look how crazy this is, man. This was, like, real black offers, okay? This was, super hardcore, and .. He used to say that if a person were to actually implant testicles from a, from like, a doe, or a goat. I mean... actually a doe doesn't have testicles, right, guys? I think it's a buck? It's a buck, right? Come on, help me out Gabs. It's a buck, bro. A buck? Yeah, I think it's buck

testicles... that would, um... like, cure erectile dysfunction. Damn, man. There must have been so many dudes out there catching bucks, right? And, he actually convinced them, man, and the copy was really good and there were a lot of people implanting buck testicles, dude. He got rich doing that. Man, belief changes things, it changes a lot, like, it can... It changes a tribe, it changes a society, dude. That's why... Totally, man. Our entire social structure only exists because we share fundamental, common beliefs, right? We only function because we believe that the little dots right there, the

numbers that are in your bank account, they're going to manage to make you and your family survive, man. But in reality, they are all just pixels in your screen. If some jerk out there presses a button, they can delete it, and it's gone, you know? Yeah, you're life is ruined. So, like, yeah, there is a book about this, which is "Sapiens", by Harari, I think. Put that on the screen, Tiagão. Sapiens is really good. So, man, of these four elements here, the simplest one in my head is number one: irrational desire. But you said that

a person can get it wrong. And, like, how do you mess that up? In my head, it's so obvious, like, what's their desire? It's to lose weight. So, I think maybe, you do something more complex than what I think I do, or not? I mean, like... I think the only thing that's a bit different is that I include the "why". Like, oh, you want to lose weight, but why exactly? Do you see what I mean? So, to me, the irrational desire is what's really behind what she's saying right there, you know? And what ends up

happening, is that sometimes a person will write a piece of copy that is heavily focused on features but is entirely camouflaged as a benefit. Like, the person just keep's repeating the lose weight thing, and lose more weight, but that is not really what the person actually wants, do you get it? Like, oh, I want to go viral, and even more viral, that is not at all what the person wants. And taking that case with Guto, reducing the beer belly, reducing the whole "Cortisol Belly", that is not what the guy wants. He wants, performance, like, I

even use this in the VSL. A woman looking at him and just not feeling ashamed, you know? I bring a comedic tone to the VSL too, so .. it is always about the why behind it. So, you just have to be careful for it to be a desire heavily camouflaged as a feature, you know? I think that is the main concern. And now here comes my beef, man, with the expert here, okay? So I want to get your opinion, because again, alright? I know you said I'm a good copywriter, and thanks. But honestly, I haven't

written copy in about three years. It starts right there, you know? A honest copy, it's been a little while since I Actually wrote any. And . I never really wrote copy for an expert as a, like, truly consistent routine for my company. I worked with experts, but man, I had a physical product brand, Diatena, right? It was a different deal. but then we talked about it here, right? Like, man, there's the rational desire, the actual cause, the real problem, and then a solution that you said is just the reversal of the cause, right? But you

know what really gets me about this, man? With this whole expert thing? It's that I completely agree with you that once we define the cause right there, the solution is just the inversion of that cause. If you are actually going to say to the person: "Listen man, you just cannot seem to lose weight here because your cortisol is way too high and your testosterone is Too low." That is the cause. But, what is the solution? Well, you have to lower the cortisol and increase the testosterone. That is pretty rational to me, right? But what is

the real issue, man, with this right here? It is that the solution has to be something that will match with, this is a belief that I have, which I think is correct, alright? I don't know, you tell me. But the actual solution, it really has to be something that is going to completely match with the expert's specific method. If the expert is saying that, for example, like, Guto was very likely selling some kind of product that actually increases your testosterone and completely lowers your cortisol, most likely. If it happened to be an expert who specifically

talks about the detox diet, What exactly would his product be? His product essentially says: "Man, I am actually going to teach you how to lose weight by completely removing toxins from your body with the detox diet." So, what exactly is the solution, then? The solution is already set, since the guy talks about it, it's his product, the solution is removing toxins. And what's the cause? The real cause is the person's body is toxic. So, in the rejuvenation niche, if the person out there talks about facial massages that replenish collagen, the person just keeps massaging right

around here and completely rejuvenates. What's the solution? The actual solution is to perform specific facial massages in order to properly replenish collagen. And what exactly is the root cause? It is a lack of collagen. So, like, in my head, this "Architecture of Hope" right here, a big Part of it we already defined back at the beginning of the process, when we chose the expert, right at the start, which was the first thing I told you. So, because of that, man. Please, feel free to correct me if I happen to be mistaken. And, well, perhaps this

might come as a bit of a bucket of cold water for some of the experts out there. And guys, I'm not here to please anyone, okay? I'm here to sell VTurb, that's my number one priority. And guys, use VTurb, alright ? Actually, that is why I paid for your hotel, the whole damn thing. This right here is for me to be able to grow VTurb here, okay? And the second point here is to just tell it exactly how it is. Actually, telling the truth, I think it might even come first, okay? Because I think sometimes

I say things that hurt VTurb. Tell people to run a quiz funnel Over there. But in my head, if you choose an expert who has the wrong method, or just a method, he will already have a defined unique solution and he will already have a defined cause too. In other words, there is already a defined unbelief, it's as if each expert already had their own. So if I pick an expert right at the beginning who is bad, who has an unbelief that isn't very good, meaning, they have a method that doesn't have much proof, which

will offer a unique solution without much proof, and a root cause right there without much proof either, I have already screwed up the whole process. And that's maybe bad for some experts, because man, if he's an expert who he dedicated his life to going after a, . method that isn't the best, man, or if a new method emerged that is superior to his... Then unfortunately maybe he spent years studying something he'll just have to drop, and, What's your take on that? Man, that makes sense. I agree with some parts, and some parts I just don't

agree with. For example, if the guy already has an unbelief defined right there. I think the Guto example is the perfect example for that. This . this true root of the problem, you know, with the testosterone and the cortisol, was something that I identified right there, and I was the one who created the solution. So, what exactly did I do? He has his pillars, so the expert is going to come with the pillars of his method. In Guto's case it was, sleep, exercise and whatever, anyway, he's going to have his pillars. What is my role?

My role is to reposition these Pillars for the solution I'm going to attack, because usually the expert comes with the vision of wanting to solve every single problem in the person's world. So, this methodology of Guto's solves weight loss, it solves, sleep, it solves, Physical exercise. But then it's my job to pick one, based on market criteria right there, what I'm going to attack. And I chose the 40+ audience, who had the "Cortisol Belly", because I did the market analysis and saw that was what was trending, you know? So it's . yeah, it's modelable in

that aspect right there. If the guy has a more complete solution. The mistake I see is people in VSLs wanting to sell the whole complete solution right there. It doesn't . like, it's strays from that copy fundamental, the "Rule of One" From Great Leads, you know, that you have to follow. And then the guy in the same VSL, I could have talked about hormonal reset, sleep, and so on. But honestly, it would have just turned into an absolutely massive mess. So I choose to have different ways of selling a single methodology. I'll give you an

example: I wrote a VSL for . for the LATAM expert market, an expert I was working with in the LATAM market, whose protocol was, like, the product's name was Protocol 12. It was 12 steps for the person to, you know, lose weight. What did I do? I chose one based on criteria, and which one was it? It was sleep. And the VSL, the mechanism had to do with sleep, the person sleep's in order to lose weight. Yeah, I've already scaled that one too. That one, simply because it's funny, you can already tell it scaled way

too much, You know? Guys, this test is really good, alright? Man, I swear this test still hasn't failed yet. Which is you saying the mechanism out loud and if you don't find it funny, it's bad, man. It has to be like: "Holy shit, like, how on earth does this even work...?" But at the same time, it just makes total sense, dude. But seriously, guys, getting enough sleep is absolutely crucial. There's a book "Why We Sleep?", put it on the screen Thiagão. Yeah, and I even bought a mattress recently, I paid twenty thousand reais for the

mattress, man, it's an Eight Sleep mattress, Eight Sleep, guys, that comes from Silicon Valley, and I haven't set this damn thing up yet, man, but I have to, but I've already put it on the bed, I just have to put water in it... because it regulates the temperature and all. 'm actively working on my sleep hygiene these days, man, so I can like, you know? So it's no joke, guys, it's super important. But saying it out loud—like, you're going to lose weight sleeping, makes me go: "Haha." You laugh, right? But it totally makes sense. It's

not random. So, for example, like, when a VSL has a methodology, that is very extensive, you will define by criteria the specific angle you're going to attack, and that comes from this, market study. Man, seriously, let me just interrupt you right there, dude. I actually found what you were saying to be really fascinating. So it's not that the expert doesn't have a defined "One Belief", or at least not all of them, like you said. Perhaps there might be some guy out there who literally only has one single belief, and that's the end of it. Like,

"oh, I only have this one thing here." But the Expert can sort off, if you break it down, he has a spectrum of possible one beliefs. So, like, it's not one, but it's not infinite. Because like, Guto, in the end, at least he's going to talk about something health-related. So it's a spectrum of possible one beliefs. But you agree that there's going to be the worst "One Belief" of all in that spectrum and there's also going to be the best "One Belief" of all, right? Man, I have an idea of how to, how you choose

the best one of all, and I think you do too. How do you... have you ever stopped to think about that? Man, I haven't, believe it or not. But using your head, like, what do you think would be the best one belief, if you could choose? Yeah, so, logically, right? Would be the one that's very easy to prove. for sure, man. yeah, like... How could it Possibly be anything else? Exactly dude, and then there's another factor. Or perhaps just how curious it all is, you know? Curiosity, very important, yeah. And the question of familiarity, what

I said, what's catching on in the market, you know? What's going through people's heads, that's why.... But man, I consider that proof. Familiarity? Yeah, that makes sense. Exactly. It's the fact that a person genuinely believes it's going to work simply because it feels familiar to them. It's proof of why this thing works. So we've reached a conclusion here that the "One Belief" is chosen by proof. That's it... nice man, let's launch a whole course about that stuff. And look, I'll tell you something, and there's already a course on that, okay? There is, man. You knew,

actually, so much so that you took the course. It's Ben Settle's seminar. He has a chapter there: how to launch million-dollar Products. And he says exactly this. My dude, find the product, have the biggest proof element and launch that one. Why? Because it is naturally going to be the absolute easiest one for you to put to the proof right there in the copy. Obviously, guys, obviously, it's... it's all that book you mentioned by Adams, "Obvious". In the end, it's all obvious. So guys, you know, obviously, I'm going to launch a soccer course. Who do you

think is going to sell more units? Is it Neymar or me? It's going to be Neymar. If this were FIFA, it would be me, alright guys? But for real-life soccer, it's Neymar, and you know why? Because he has more proof. It is much easier to prove his worth in that. Sometimes people confuse that. They think it's fake because being a big creator Isn't enough. And then the guy gives an example: "No, because I launched Pedrinho, who's an actor from I don't know where, who has 500,000 followers and it failed." Okay, but he wasn't the element

of proof for that. Being a famous guy, those are different things. Man, I've already made that mistake, you know? I know. I've heard this on the podcast. Yeah, I've already worked with an expert, He is a public figure, he is quite well-known, it is just... I know who it is. I'm gonna say it, and Thiagão can cut it out. No. It is.. Oh, no way! You really worked with him? That is just completely insane. We launched his VSL. Hey Thiagão, please don't let that slip out, man. You need to put a bleep in there, because

I really don't want that name revealed on this show. You have got To be kidding me, man. Yeah, man. We launched his VSL. But he's really good on social media. Dude, he's good. Even I know him, man Yeah, but, the VSL didn't work out, man. Yeah. But that's the thing, he's well-known, man. It's not like he has proof for that. Tell him to make a VSL in his own field. Like, how to do my thing here, you know? Like, Thiagão, mute that. You know? It's much more likely to work. Exactly. Yes, we launched... People get

confused. Yeah, so, going viral, I think that would work, man. Right? It didn't work. Because there's a whole belief system there, and, it was tough. Like, the offer sold, but it wasn't like: "Wow, it actually worked." But it sold you know? it sold six figures. For the guys there. Yeah, look, at the end of the day, well, it sold, so for me that is already Very good, you know? It just didn't give the explosive result you guys wanted, but man, it was really good. But anyway, dude, look, I stand by it, okay? I faithfully defend

this model, because man, it makes a lot of sense for us to find the one belief that has the most proof. And it's the "One Belief" that has the most proof. I mean, as a copywriter myself, I can definitely come up with a whole bunch of different things. But if I actually go ahead and choose the right expert, they will have an absurdly high element of proof right there, that absolutely no copy can beat. Man, you can write whatever kind of copy you want for an investment pitch. If my expert is Warren Buffett, just forget

about it, bro. That guy is literally the biggest investor in the entire world, with I don't even know how many billions of dollars in investments, I don't know how many decades of social proof. If Gary Bencivenga saw that, he would buy out an entire newsletter, you know? A whole newsletter, an entire business, because Warren Buffett gave a testimonial for it. And he was like: "Man, with this exact testimonial right here..." I mean, like, he would basically just buy the whole business because of the testimonial, you know what I mean? Simply because of the absolute strength

of the proof, man. And dude, I am going to tell you something right now. I honestly think that you're the very first copywriter I've seen from this entire new generation who actually gives the necessary emphasis to that specific thing. Because I think all the other copywriters, okay? Who sit right here at VTurb. And guys, nothing against you all, okay? Everyone gets great results, you are Absolutely top-notch, it's all good, everyone has their own style. But I think everyone gives way too much emphasis right now, man, way too much emphasis to: "Oh, what is the secret

lead I'm going to use? The catchy name, the pretty little name, Reset whatever, of this thing, of that thing. What is the format?" Super important, that has the biggest element of proof. But I think people don't really care that much about choosing the "One Belief", you know? And I think this is happening because the people who are popularizing direct marketing in Brazil, I'm one of them, okay? But the people who do this, especially the ones who come here, are mostly people from the health niche, and over there they invent these crazy proofs, often selling things

in the United States. He doesn't worry so much about proof, because he already invents a lot of proof over there. But in your case, since we're operating here in Brazil, with experts Here from Brazil, you just can't do that. So I think for this crowd doing this here in Brazil, I think they're really lacking this awareness that this is extremely important and it's actually the most important thing. It is truly the most critical factor, because, if we return to that tree analogy for a moment, that force can actually topple the tree, man. It can bring

the entire business crashing down. And then there is another significant point within that, about this issue of the "Architecture of Hope", and so on. I actually have a bit of a shortcut so I can manage to really hit the mark much better on the VSL that I'm going to put together. First, here's the thing: absolutely every market, and it really doesn't matter if it is health, nutrition, or whatever else, it just doesn't matter. This market is divided into three categories. It has the category of the guy who's a fan, it has the guy who's a

hater, and it has the guy who's dissatisfied. Which of these categories do I actually have the best possible chance of scaling? The fan, the hater, or the dissatisfied one, Dude, I think unsatisfied, right? Yeah, the dissatisfied Yeah, that's right. Because the truth is, right within that specific category, I already have several elements of proof showing what doesn't work. This guy has already seen a lot of things working. And then the satisfied category is exactly where I . turn the dissatisfied guy into a satisfied one, just so I can successfully offer him my significantly more expensive

product right over there. The hater, I just ignore them. They might become a satisfied or a dissatisfied one, but I think for anyone who is starting to work with an expert, you should absolutely aim for the market of completely dissatisfied people. About some solution, some problem, some issue. And then how do you do that? Man, it's very easy. You just go on Amazon, look at the best-selling products or books, etc. And you can just go ahead and look at the comments with three stars or two stars, and you are going to see exactly why people

are so dissatisfied over there. And another thing, on the experts, unfortunately, nowadays there are some, obviously, not all of the experts, okay guys? But some experts in the white market are turning almost black, man. You look at their reviews, it's just an absurd amount of complaints. So, yeah, those are actually excellent opportunities for you to go ahead and Sell to this completely dissatisfied market. You would be taking advantage of a demand that has already been raised, and it's easier to sell. Dude, like... On the "Architecture of Hope", I understand that with the desire, the cause,

and the solution, we can write our "One Belief" sentence, our single belief. And with that specific sentence right there, we can truly understand exactly where I am going to guide the rest of the copy. Look, the person has to believe in this: making VSLs is the key to making money in the digital space. And it is only possible by watching João and Johab's podcast. There, we have our "One Belief". But you mentioned a fourth element here, which is the promise. What exactly are you looking for in this case? Is it a specific Promise? I mean,

I understand what a promise is, and I think that the people watching at home probably also understand exactly what it is. I just didn't understand what it is in this context right here. What is going to be in that Word document over there? Are you going to write 'promise', and underneath that 'lose so many pounds'? What are you... It's gonna be the central promise, the primary promise of my VSL. For example, the whole "Mental Answer Key" thing we just talked about. What exactly would be the primary promise there? The guy actually managing to pass absolutely

any public exam you decide to take. It's the primary promise, that I'll use in my headline, in my ads, you know? So that's what I define. Promise that will guide the entire copy. Yeah. Okay, understood. So here in step three. Right after the download call, and after you properly study the market, we are going to do exactly what we call the "Architecture of Hope", which then basically has these four main elements: the rational desire, the real cause, the, . solution, and the promise. And from there, the "One Belief" is, like, basically the combination of these

three first elements right there, which are the desire, the cause, and the solution. And we express that in a sentence, that's why it's "One Belief", because it's a single belief, a single sentence that if the person believes it, they're ready to receive the offer. It doesn't mean they will buy it, right? It has to be an irresistible offer, but at the very least they will be open to receive it. She's going to say: "No, wait, I want this right here, I want to know more about this, tell me more." And the little sentence template is:

doing this thing, Performing this action, is the key to your desire. This is possible with this solution right here. And we also conclude, right, that the best way to build that "One Belief " is with a lot of proof. The more proof you have in those things, the better, because it'll be easier for us to argue that later on. Is there anything I didn't ask? No, I think that's it. And then, like, the next step there, is for us to . So, stage four, then? Yeah, the fourth stage, is meant for us to sit down

and actually begin to write the, We're getting into the writing? Yeah, so we're getting into writing the argument, into the sales argument, right? Man, for the people who don't know, okay? What exactly is this whole thing you just mentioned about a sales argument slash marketing thesis, like what is that? Yeah, sure. So a copy is divided into two main branches, the emotion branch and the persuasion branch. So, this part right here is where we're going to actively persuade the person to truly believe in this single belief that we defined. That's why it's called the sales

argument, right, usually more well-known as marketing thesis. And what are we gonna do? We're gonna take this single belief of ours, this "One Belief" that we just made, and we are going to essentially break it all down into the main core beliefs right there and basically create a whole journey for the person to truly believe in it. I like to give an example, which is, like, someone who lives in the countryside, like, I lived in the countryside for many years, I was practically born in that area, and, The country is this... But, What is the

countryside, man? My grandma lives there too, but I don't really know. ...country, like, it's a small town, like, people take care of animals, cows, that kind of stuff. Oh, really? Not with a plantation? No, not necessarily, because . like, that a plantation is just a farm, right? Then any small town, like a smaller one, always has that farm from the, you know... And then what happens? Anyone who has already seen a fence will easily understand this. But, like, If you haven't seen a fence, for the love of God. A fence? Oh okay, that is just

a fence, used to enclose things. With barbed wire... Oh ok, right, I think, well, I think they saw it. In case nobody saw it, alright guys, a fence is going to appear there on the screen, but put up a badass fence, Thiago, like, a really cool and badass fence. An awesome one. When a guy goes to build a fence, the very first thing he does is put the stakes right in, so that he can easily come back later with the line to completely outline the fence. And the logical point is exactly this, man. They are

the stakes, they are the specific arguments that serve as the primary stakes right inside your copy, so that later on you can simply come back and expand on it, just running the wire right through there, expanding it even further. So the . The better the argument is, the easier it will be for you to expand it. Then the argument becomes a smooth sliding argument, right? Where the person drops in and slides right through without hitting any nails in the middle, or anything like that. So . I like to give this example. And then how exactly

Do we start this argument? I like to start in two ways: either I start with something the person already believes, or something that's easy for the person to believe. So, I don't know, one plus one is two, an argument the person already believes. And then from there I simply move forward, I just keep on adding. Usually, there isn't really a specific number of arguments I put in. It will depend there, I don't know, on how much I can prove or . like, man, on my intuition. There isn't really a set amount, but I put, if

I were to number it here, between five to eight. Five to eight arguments and logical points right over there, which is basically the complete sary of my entire sales argument. So the specific person who actually reads that right over there, they are completely going to understand exactly what my one single belief is really all Ab out, and they will comprehend it at the very end of it all. Before, I used to do this by hand, but nowadays AI can already do it. There are a few prompts that I use to set up these logical points.

I can share them with everyone too, alright? Today's podcast is completely packed with exclusive material, guys. That's just crazy, right, bro? Something else is actually going to pop up right on screen again, guys, just so you can finally receive that entire setup. Then right there you will put into that prompt what your "One Belief" is, what the parts of your audience briefing are, and it will create the variations of logical points for you. You will, obviously, having done this study, having understood all this, you'll have the criteria there to know which one to use, which

one not to use, to be fully able to select your own. I actually do it exactly Like that today. So having defined it here, we defined a logical line of communication, what are we going to do? We are going to gradualize it, we are going to expand this argument. And to expand the argument, man, I use . and you mentioned Todd Brown, I use his technique right there that he teaches in the book, which is . claim, proof, and benefit. But in this part about the benefit, you have to be careful not to get too

rigid right there. So I really like this approach of a good or bad consequence of what is actually going to happen to the person. And then, I proceed to gradually build my argument, starting from that specific logical point there. Yeah, I think I understand. I have a few notes I'd like to share, okay? Man, an example I gave once like that, I don't know, another way of thinking about it too, is that I've always thought in terms of bridges and pillars. So the bridge, right, it takes the person's belief from point A to point B.

From knowing nothing, and then believing in the "One Belief". And then you have what the pillars are, to actually make the person, um... arrive all the way over there. So, another completely different way of looking at it, besides, the fence method, is simply that one. And . You know man, I honestly don't know if you have ever really stopped to think about this whole thing, you know? I've already stopped to reflect a lot on this whole thing about logical points and such. And so, I have a theory then, see if you agree with me, okay?

Back in the old days, you know . like, once I had finally established my "One Belief", I used to craft all of those logical arguments completely by hand, and honestly, just like you, it was mostly about pure intuition, very much about the copywriter's skill. And what is intuition, guys? It's basically reading a bunch of copy until you start to see patterns. So, this is the most creative part of a VSL, the hardest part, because there are several ways to do it, right, infinite ways to do it. And there are some that are indeed better than

others, there are some that are worse. But the way, like, after thinking a lot like this, man, I ended up understanding that every "One Belief". It really only has two logical points. And way back, when I did more than that, I was kind of confusing myself, because I Didn't know how to express it in those two there. But kind of like this, that you have to, in my head, okay? And it's been a while since I've written, so reflect there, see if it makes sense. But in my head there has to be a logical point.

And I think that it will, in a way, help to prove the causal part of the equation. And the other one, it proves the solution part. And what's going to differentiate the size of the logical points, which I don't even know if, like, if it'd be possible to call a logical point, I don't know, but like, the size. The size of the argument? Yeah, the size of each stage's argument is going to be the size of the evidence element you'll put in. Which I can put three or four. So, for example, in that, like, looking

back at that detox diet we discussed earlier, what would be the "One Belief"? Removing all the toxins from Your body is the key for you to successfully lose weight. And that's possible with a detox diet. Then how would I simplify this into two logical points? First logical point I have to prove is, I have to prove to the person that removing toxins is the key for them to lose weight. Then in the VSL I would say something more or less like this: "I had tried literally everything out there, and so on, until I finally discovered

what to do to lose weight, which was simply removing the toxins." "Let me explain it to you." And then I would say: "Toxins are this, that, and the other, and this is such and such." These are precisely the logical points that we write nowadays, these are the exact reasons why the initial belief itself is actually real. But the way that I personally started viewing it is simply that. It's kind of like we are both talking about the exact same thing, you know? Yeah, I completely understand that, but the point is that someone who is much

more of a beginner just can't visualize it through that two-branch perspective, because it gets way too complex for him to write starting from just those two branches. It's kind of like he needs, like, here I put A, then I put B, then I put C, and then I put a D. Like, just to make his writing journey much easier. This entire thought process of yours I think is genuinely very good, but I feel like it's very complex like this for someone who is more of a beginner and is going to create his own, because... I

had thought it was the opposite, bro. Because since there are only two, you know? Instead of being like five or six. Right, but the issue is someone messing up the expansion of the first and second points, so... Yeah, for sure he will, because it really won't be all that detailed, Right? Exactly. So I think that the more detailed for the guy who's starting, the better it is. Better for him to be able to get it right, get the hang of it there. Yeah, in short, the person has to create a mini argument to prove the

first stage. And then another mini argument to prove, to properly prove the second stage. And from there, a person can accomplish that in multiple ways, using any number of evidence elements, they could even use customer testimonials or practical demonstrations. There's a copywriter who will say it like this: "Yeah, until I discovered that what I really had to do in order to successfully lose weight was to remove the toxins. You see, your body naturally absorbs these toxins, so this specific problem easily happens." Then you can put a proof element right here. "In fact, according to Harvard,

it results in this." This is element number one. The second one could be a testimonial. "In fact, Mrs. Maria did this right here and she got much more obese, and the same goes for several other women." So that really comes down to the copywriter's skill in selecting those specific proof elements there. So there is basically no right or wrong in this whole thing. Yeah, exactly, it depends. One thing I like to do is validate my logical points. So I do that with my wife. A kiss to her, Gabrielly. I take the copy that I write

and I read the logical points to her, man. She doesn't know anything about it, and she goes: "Yeah, it makes sense, I would believe that." You know? I take it and read it to a person who isn't even involved with what I'm writing, either her, or my mother-in-law, whoever it is. I do this exercise like this on the side, to catch one objection or another. I like to do that, you know? Man, without any doubt. That is a review technique, right? We being able to better validate your points there. I think the copy, which copy

book? Logical Copy talks about that? I don't know if he teaches that technique in there, I don't think so. But without a doubt, showing it to others is cool. It's a good idea. Reading it out loud is also a very interesting thing to do. Yeah, right? Man, once we've got it, right? And we've made a little argument here, we have our "One Belief", we're going to start writing our argument right here, like, how exactly can a person determine if their argument is actually sound, or if it's truly worth the effort of testing it out, given

that, man, as we're discussing this right here, there really isn't any clear right or wrong answer, you know what I mean? There really isn't any purely objective way to determine if a thing is actually good. Do you have any tips, a framework, anything at all for a guy to know when he should just stop and decide: "I am going to go with this one right here, because this is the exact argument that I want." You mean when the guy's picking those logical points, when he, For him to actually define that for himself, because if he

happens to choose, I don't know, four logical points, it'll be one thing. If he picks 40, it'll be something else entirely. Yeah, I genuinely think that the very first point is the whole question of proof, and then the second point is exactly how much mental material he already has prepared, like, he has already read the logical point, and he can already visualize it being written out. If it is something that is, like, Fuzzy in his head. it's going to be harder to move it forward, to actually get it down in writing. So that is basically

what I do, I always choose the one that has the most proof and the one that I can just lay my eyes on and immediately think: "Man, I can actually do this right here." I already, like, have a bunch of argument ideas right then and there. If there are some in there that I look at but I have no idea, I don't even use them, because it's just unnecessary work, you know? I just want to sit down and write in peace, and have it be done once I finish. Man, one specific thing that I actually

use as a creativity limiter, and honestly it is really good for us to have these kinds of limiters, right, otherwise we'll just go crazy here. But honestly, looking back during the initial research phase, when we were busy Benchmarking various VSLs, if I notice that the mechanism section of our competitors, if the VSL in the most highly scaled niche contains around 2,500 or even 3,000 words, then I make sure my own mechanism section is roughly around that same length. Which will give roughly a certain number of logical points. So, that's a limiter I have so I

don't overdo it, so it doesn't get too absurd. Like, if the niche mechanism has 2,500 words, will mine have 5,000? No. Or will mine have 700, just like I mentioned about Tiagão, right? No, it will have maybe 2,300, it will have 2,700, it's going to be somewhere around 2,500. So, do you use that as well? Do you think it's just nonsense? Yeah, exactly, and that is precisely why I think even at the very beginning when I spoke, I said that I would always put down the exact word count that goes into Every single block. I

genuinely use it in every single block. Lead, story, the offer too. Sometimes I change the offer a bit, okay? There are some offer things I like to tweak a little bit there, which I think helps a bit with the conversion there. Yeah, that's cool. And what else, man, do you do here in this section to guarantee that we have a solid argument? I like to end the section in this part. Basically in a way that completely sarizes right there in the person's mind, everything that I wanted to say in the whole part, which is almost

like a proof/transition block right there. So if I'm talking about that cortisol thing over there, that the person needs to regulate, that they have to do a "Hormonal Reset", I create some demonstrative proof element to transition into my product transition block. So it Should be visual, since it's an ex, you can make that incredibly visual. And this idea of placing a demonstrative proof in the mechanism block transition, I got a lot of that from the Black guys, I thought it was awesome what they do, right? They actually take it over there, put it in, and

man, why not just bring it right over here? So I like to end the block just like that, proving right there that the thing really gets results after the person actually solves it. Whether it is with a demonstrative proof, whether it is with a case study from some student, or whether it's with a testimonial, I just really like to end it with that final proof like that. But in that case, then, let me see if I'm understanding what you're saying, okay? You are going to start right over there and you're actually going to say: "Look,

I finally discovered that the main cause right here is basically your hormones. We have high cortisol, testosterone is low, and such and such happens." Look here, proof one, proof two, proof three. "Got it? Okay, I get it, wonderful." What do we have to do, then? We have to increase testosterone and decrease cortisol. "If we do that, then you'll be able to get the benefit. Here is proof one, proof two, proof three. Got it?" Then the person will say: "Yes." Then after that you'll say: "Alright then, so I just finished telling you that you actually have

to do this, and the proper way to do it is with this exact thing right here, and here is this exact proof." So that is basically what you do then. You finish with this last one, sarizing your "One Belief" with proof. And it has to be the most dramatic proof possible, it has to be a person you look At, and you think: "Wow, if things actually worked out for this person, then I can definitely do it too." So it really has to be the most unquestionable piece of proof possible, because if the person actually leaves

the mechanism block, believing it, man, I'll only fail to sell to this person if my offer is really bad, because they have already, like, totally bought the idea. The hardest part is already done. So, yeah, they already bought the idea. The hardest part was done, without a shadow of a doubt. Man, what are you guys putting in the water in Piauí, man, to get such good copywriters, bro? What are you guys doing over there, man? Is it all that sun-dried meat? What is going on there? I think it's a lot of sun, you know? It

fries your brain, and you guys start having these ideas. It's the sun, it's a lot of sun. That is crazy, man. Dude, and what about after we get the argument down? I'm just assuming here, okay? That we did all the research, we'll have a Word document, with like, with our argument written out. Is that already the final one or is it going to be polished eventually? So, the way that we have talked about it here, it is already the final argument we are making. But in my briefing model, I actually have those questions right there,

you know? Like what is the "One Belief", and so on, already answered. For the writing part, I like to create a separate document that I call mechanization. That is exactly where I will write out my argument properly. Then I just follow this entire process we talked about here regarding the "One Belief", the logical points, inside this Separate document. I like to write my VSL in separate docs, man. Every single thing, now in Google Docs you can actually separate them by tabs right there, so I like to separate it, write it in each block, so I

can read each one separately, really carefully afterwards, and then later I'll put the pieces together, right? I strictly follow what James says over there, that copy isn't written, it is assembled. So I definitely make sure to follow that entire process extremely strictly. And then, man, once the whole argument is finally settled, I . like, just write it all out inside a completely separate document, and then comes the transition block, right? . you get it? Is that what you do right after that part, or is there something else within your process? It is what I always

do after the Transition. And what is important about that? Man, you really need to be very careful with . like, that transition block into the offer. Because you could easily end up, Mess up your pitch retention a bit, you know? So, the more subtle the transition is, the better. Sometimes a guy finishes the mechanism block: "Oh, and now I want to introduce you to such-and-such product." Like, it already scares people, it's exactly like in a launch. You're doing a launch with three CPLs, if you just go in, I don't know, already in CPL two throwing

in a sales pitch right there, without having a valid reason why that pitch is coming in, you're going to kill your retention. So, one of the arguments I really like to use, I even used it in that Guto's VSL right there, is the transition as a form of anchoring. So I actually Found an article about a guy who spent, I don't know, like, a million dollars every single year just to take care of himself, in order to look younger. I personally thought that idea was incredibly awesome. Was It Bryan Johnson? I don't know if it's

him, but it was some guy, I found it. Then I used that article as a transition. Then it shows like: "Look here, see? Take a look at this article about this guy." He actually spends a million dollars every single year just to do this, simply to lower his cortisol and increase his testosterone. A million dollars a year. "Do you have any idea that maybe this right here is more money than you will ever be able to have in your life?" And then I go along that line of democratizing access to knowledge, basically making it so

that as many people as possible can have access to this. But I just really like to start off By already throwing an anchor into that block. That is actually quite interesting, man. I must admit, that is really cool. I like doing that. Because when I get there, I don't just leave it to anchor inside the anchoring block right before revealing the price. I am already raising the value of my product beforehand. Really interesting, man. It basically works as a solid reason why you are actually going to create the entire product, which has your mission right

there. And it's also a real reason. It is a bigger proof element than the transition people usually do, right? People will say something like: "Oh, and then I gave it to people to test, a friend tested it, it worked, so I decided to create such-and-such product." Then, Man, that is so much weaker than us having a solid external proof element, right, without a doubt. That's cool. Yeah, exactly. I do that, and then it goes right into the offer block. Do you have any more tips, man, for the transition block? So, like, essentially, okay? What I

am assuming here is that we will always have our swipes right there, meaning the VSLs that are currently running, that are in the niche, or eventually some other VSLs, and my own transition is going to be more or less exactly similar to the transition that the other person is making in terms of word count, and in overall size. However, we are going to add this superior proof element, which is that external proof element you talked about, or some other proof element that the person manages to find. And as a matter of fact, you guys, if

you are at home Studying the various transitions in the market, you are going to see that a lot of them are actually quite a bit lazier. And I do not think that is necessarily a bad thing at all, okay? Simply because it just happens to work well. It's just because of how people actually did it, this thing right here that Johab just talked about, I actually hadn't seen it yet. So it's a cool thing for us to test. But is there anything else different that you do here? Man, I think the only difference is that

anchoring point, the rest is the common market transition, you know? giving it to other people to test, and so on. It got validated, and then I decided to deliver it, to package this up inside a method. It works really well too. Yeah, nice. So right here, man, we already have the complete argument, we Have the transition, but we still don't have the offer story right there yet, right? What do you do after that? After that, alright, let's get into it. So, this transition block. I usually don't write it with the mechanism, okay? We talked about

it here, I got into the structure side of things, but writing the mechanism, and then later I will write the offer, okay? Writing the offer, because the offer to me is the simplest block of the VSL, because it is very framework-based right there. You just have to not do it, it's like Gui, there's . Renato Torres from Corpo Explica over there, from Elton Euler, do you know him? Man, that guy, is he a strong guy? Yeah, I think I know him. Yeah. Shout out to Renatão. And something I learned from him, which is: you don't

Need to be smart, you just have to avoid being stupid. So, for the offer it's the exact same thing, don't go reinventing the wheel, man. Just avoid messing things up, not being stupid there. And then take an offer framework you saw out there that is validated and just follow that. Yeah, and what is it that I don't like? It's a main point. I don't like treating the product as, . a module. I like treating it as phases there, where the person will, like, each phase they will advance their benefit. So in the first phase we're

going to solve this, in the second phase we're going to solve this, and in the third phase we're going to solve this. I always like to link it to proof within the phase. Like, if in that phase I said the person will be able to exercise better, I'll add: "Look, just like so-and-so Here: 'I'm managing to exercise X times a day now'." So I basically keep linking the actual deliverable of my product, you know, directly to that specific idea of phases, right there. And then right after that, I make sure to reinforce the overall benefits

of this product. After I reinforce the benefits, I usually explain who this is for, and who it is definitely not for, more or less. Then I get right into the anchoring. Then when it comes to the anchoring, I replicate a bit of what I used to do in launches, right? There's comparative anchoring, upward anchoring, downward anchoring, and result anchoring. Comparative anchoring is basically me comparing it with other methods currently on the market, it is almost exactly like the one I talked about back in the transition block, except that right here I genuinely compare it with

actual competitor methods, and so on. And then after that the result anchoring, which . is basically just the usual stuff, like how much is all of this actually worth to you, and so on. Yeah, then the upward anchoring of: "Oh, I could easily charge X, but it is not going to be X". And then right after that, the big reveal, the actual price reveal. And the downward anchoring? Yeah, the downward anchoring is after revealing the price. It's a cup of coffee, you know? Oh, it's a coffee a day. It's always that same copy, right guys?

If the guy says, "It's just a coffee a day," watch out, you know? That's it. And then after I do the CTA, I'm going to explain the buying process to the person, to provide some security there. With an expert this is very important, it's good for you to show it even to bring that trust, because it Happens a lot that you get a lot of checkouts and low checkout conversions, due to that lack of security the person feels, they think it's a scam. That's why some experts choose to put a video on the checkout page.

Saying: "Oh, it's safe, it's a real product." So you have to explain that, then I bring in the bonuses, and for the bonuses, a trick I can give you guys here. In this offer research that we did, we saw exactly what offers are currently running in the market right there. So, if I have the option to deliver as a bonus what my competitor sells, I absolutely blow the value perception of my offer out of the water, I increase it. So, man, this guy is giving away for free right here what my other competitor over there

is charging for. So I always try to bring in exactly that type of bonus. And there is a bonus that was really popularized back in the days of product Launches, which is the tsunami effect, that came right from the monstrous launch, you know, that we used to have. Man, that is the absolute best name on the market, guys, Monstrous Launch, it is totally awesome. Back in the days of the Monstrous Launch, . we used that tsunami effect bonus, it really was monstrous, like, it would even crash Hotmart right when the cart opened, etc. And then

we'd do the... But what is this tsunami effect, man? The tsunami effect is essentially defining urgency bonuses. So back during a launch, how did it work? Today it is quite common, right? Like, the first 100, the first 10, whoever buys by midnight, so these are tsunami effect bonuses. And right after that, we go ahead and throw that directly into the VSL, the Tsunami effect bonuses, but it's tied to a timer that says: "whoever buys in the next minute gets this," then a timer starts, it can be in the editing itself, it can be the VTurb

mini hook, you can put that in too. And then whoever buys within that time on that timer gets access to that tsunami effect offer. That is really good, man, it is honestly just top-tier stuff right there. Man, I'm going to ask you a question, and I don't know if you'll understand me, because . like, even I didn't completely understand myself here, you know? But I am going to try my best right here, okay? I genuinely noticed that you have a tremendous amount of references coming from the product launch crowd, and that is honestly really cool.

Man, different ways of doing anchoring, that's something I think the old-school DR folks didn't have the knowledge, you know? So it's cool, because you can complement it, That's very interesting. and you mentioned Renato Torres, that's his name, right? Renato Torres. And I actually met him down in Teresina, at Cadu Neiva's mastermind. And Cadu's podcast will appear, guys, right here on the screen, for whoever wants to, you know, check it out if they're interested. But he mentioned this thing that you don't need to be smart, sometimes it's just about not being stupid, right? And in fact,

many, many things in life are like that. Even Charlie Munger himself says this. And that book you bought by Peter Bevelin, Seeking Wisdom, which will appear on the screen, guys, he has another book that says: "Tell me where I'm going to die so I never go there." In other words, you, if you avoid the problem, you have a much better chance of achieving what you want just because you Didn't fall into the most common problems. And then you mentioned, that we should really try to avoid reinventing the offer. Specifically in this section here of the

proposal. Because man, it is the most heavily templated section, so it is much easier for you to do and so on, and it really does make total sense. At the exact same time, you shared with me right here during our conversation that you love to include solid proof at various moments, especially when referring back to the actual method, saying things like, "oh, it'll go, like, you'll lose weight faster, look at this person here and so on." And man, the truth is that nowadays, copys in general have very little proof. And I think maybe largely because

of Empiricus, which introduced the Big Idea school, which is a really cool school, and especially for the financial market, Where there's always something different happening. When it comes to other market niches, I honestly do not believe that it is the absolute best or most effective framework available; however, my analysis suggests that there is very little concrete evidence or proof to support it. So man, when you tell someone to grab a template of an offer block, for example, they saw the niche's VSL, they see this guy right here, and they just do that. They'll have a

copy of, I don't know, 3000 words, 3500 for the close. Exactly how much are they modifying that, that you're recommending? They keep adding in more proof and they just keep making it longer, because man, once you start adding all that extra stuff, the copy is going to get much longer. And at what point would it be worth doing that? And mess around with the original version of the copy, or do you honestly think It's not really worth it? I'm actually going to take what's right there, and I'm going to see what the invisible structure of

that copy is, and I'll try to follow it as closely as possible. Because the moment we decide to add more proof, right, we are inevitably going to alter the whole thing. I assume you do too, because we were talking here and you said: "Put a little proof here, and stuff." So, I really feel like it comes down to a spectrum regarding how much I actually end up changing, you know? Could you talk about that? Yeah, sure, no problem. I think that depends on the proposal you're making in your offer, you know? It depends on that.

If it happens to be a very aggressive one, then there's no escaping it, man. You have to prove it and fully explain why that proposal exists. If you have a deliverable there, like, it's an AI that writes a lead delivering a 70% retention rate for your VSL, I don't know, the very first time you test it. I need to show exactly where that lead is right there. So I always write the offer block myself. With this suspicion: "man, isn't this going to sound like a lie to the guy? Will the guy see this and say:

'okay, but where is the reality of the facts?'" So when I notice that the proposal is too aggressive, I tweak the block, I put some proof in there. If it's not, keep it, that's fine, but if it is, you put it in non stop. Especially because you have that whole offer equation from Alex Hormozi, you know, there is that specific part about tangibilizing it, making the offer tangible and reducing effort. And if I'm talking about reducing effort and making The whole thing tangible, I need to prove it. I need to show this. That this issue

actually happened right there. Because at the end of the day, the person is only going to buy if they trust it. If they simply do not trust it, just forget about it, you could have done the work of the gods, it just won't convert. Yeah, there is no doubt about that, man. I totally agree with you. Regarding your proof, the crazier it is, the bigger the claim, the bigger the proof needs to be, right? If you're going to say that there is a, like, magic elf, that a person will buy the product, he'll come out

of the computer and make them rich, you have to have a lot of proof. But if you simply say that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, then that is perfectly fine, you really don't need any proof at all. That's right. The person probably already believes that. It's even a mistake to put proof here, right? Because the person will get bored of you proving something they already believe. Yeah, exactly. Man, I am really coming to the conclusion right here that when it comes to the offer section, ideally we simply cannot afford to be stupid and

make any sort of mistakes. So the absolute most straightforward approach for us is to take a validated structure from the niche and execute it extremely faithfully, which is fundamentally distinct from the sales argument portion, where we will have significantly more breathing room to innovate and to truly express our Creativity right there, really highlighting what makes our expert completely stand out from the rest. So, that is really quite cool. We will only mess with the offer if we are saying something crazy that requires more proof, if it's a requirement of the sales message to have that

element of proof, otherwise the copy won't even be testable. You do not even consider that specific copy to be good enough simply because you did not put the required proof in there that it absolutely should have had. And then there is actually another important point to consider within the offer block, speaking of experts, right? So, you really have to make it visual. The audience likes to see exactly what they're going to buy. If you're going to buy a bag, you want to see the bag you're buying, right? If you're going to buy a shirt, you

want to see the shirt. So, there has to be an element in the Deliverables section where you present the members' area of your product to the person, showing them what it looks like, because there's even a hook. This helps a lot with ascension, in the backend, right? There's an ascension strategy we call the, . hidden pitch. Ever heard of it? A hidden pitch? Man, look here, to be completely honest with you, I am sure I am already familiar with the actual technique. What I don't know are the guru names that you guys come up with.

Pitch this, or maybe that other thing over there. That invisible structure? Now that is something I really do not know. Actually, no. The hidden pitch, man, is one of the ascension strategies that you can pull off, which is creating a welcome video that acts like a camouflaged sales pitch right in there. Complete with a CTA. But with a CTA. It's a pitch for a class to... No, it's a welcome video in the members' area, structured, templated, scripted, All nice and neat, with a CTA for the guy to buy the upsell product, for example, from the

offer he's already seen. And then in the VSL, you have to open loops, right? In the launches right, when we were doing the CPLs, what was the 80/20 that we talked about regarding the CPLs? It's that the more loops you open in a CPL, the better the retention will be at the very end of your CPL. Here, it's the exact same thing for the person to consume the product. The more curiosity loops you open right there in the offer, the better it will be for the person to consume the product there and see this hidden

pitch right there, man. So essentially, okay? What I'm understanding, Is that you'll get to the close and say: "Man, and as soon as you buy, you'll receive a class right now, which is the most important class in the course, it's the welcome class, which you ideally need to watch today. So go watch it." So you Pitch the next class, which is the class where he'll land to get the upsell pitch. So, you really have to be a bit careful there, because there are people who use that to talk about the upsell video, but the upsell

video is also part of the strategy. So I just say that there's this class that the person has to watch, you know? But there's a class inside the members' area, man. It's in this members' area that the person buys. And then I talk about this class when I'm presenting the deliverables: "Look, and there's this class here that is the secret, you'll only find out about it when you're inside." And... that's it. Got it, yeah I understand. And also, if you're enjoying the episode, if it gave you an insight to make money, Scale your business, or

whatever, man, just take a look at the screenshot that is going to appear right here on the screen. That right there is a guy, you see? He liked the episode, took this link, and shared it in a WhatsApp group. So, it costs him nothing. He just thought it was cool, took it and shared it. And I ask you, okay? Do the same thing he's doing, copy this episode's link and drop it in a WhatsApp group, show it to more people. To a friend, to a business partner, to any kind of person. This might seem super

simple, okay? And it actually is, it's 100% free, but this makes more people know about our podcast and consequently it grows and I can bring more and more people to generate content for you and help you grow your business even more. And like I said, okay? It's 100% free, there's no cost for you to do this. The only thing you'll do is help another entrepreneur, just like this episode is Helping you. So man, go ahead and do that, share it, so that the YouTube podcast can grow more and more, and I can bring in more

people to generate this free content here for you, alright? So, let's get right back into the episode. Man, great, and after that? We have the argument here, we have the offer. Do you do the story or do you do the lead? I make the story. Wow, that's bold, isn't it? I mean, it's not bold, it's the standard, right? Yeah, bold would be if you had the lead, man. I wouldn't be bold, I'd be stupid, right? Because man, how would I even do the lead for that? Man, I honestly don't know, dude. I got caught in

a dilemma. But how is it? What do you do? Man, when it comes to the story, I really don't innovate at all, man. I think it's the part, I follow that basic framework from Stefan. Background story, discovery story, and emotional story. Those are exactly the three distinct stories that I make sure to tell right there within my Video Sales Letter. And . You know there are some people out there who prefer to use parts of the hero's journey, and I honestly think that is a very good approach, it definitely works quite well too. But the

thing is, from the tests I did when I was writing, I felt like I got lost a lot, I felt like I was saying something I shouldn't right there, and it got kind of boring. So I just use that framework from Stefan in the story block and it works well. So background, my expert's credentials. And then I ask, how did he go about doing . I don't remember now if the story is discovery or emotional first. It's so emotional Oh, so the emotional story comes. He was really screwed, then he found out... It could be

from the expert, because of the emotional story, or . it could be, like, from a student. I always... Or from a random person. A fictional person, like, there are actually people out there who are just like this, that, and everything else in between. I always prefer, whenever I am working with an expert, I use this specific idea. I use both examples, both the expert's and the person's, right? In Guto's VSL, actually, it is structured like that; it features both of those examples. And then it gets into the discovery story, how the guy discovered the Methodology.

Now, with this discovery story, you have to be a bit careful not to get confusing, because sometimes the guy says he discovered the method and all, and then they immediately dive right into the problem mechanism without providing any kind of transition to explain why they shifted into that problem mechanism in the first place. So if the guy is going to build the discovery block on top of the solution mechanism, he has to give a lead-in to the problem mechanism. He has to say: "But before that, there's this, this, and this here." Then if the guy

does the discovery story on top of the problem mechanism, then that's fine, then he connects it directly. So you have to be careful with congruence in the transition of the mechanism. That is very good. And man, you who deal with experts over there, do you get a lot Of issues regarding the quality of the story? For instance, do they ever insist on having a very specific moment from their own background featured just because of some ego issue, or does that sort of thing simply not happen? It really doesn't roll. No, it doesn't happen. It's, you

know, it's never happened, actually, you know? With VSLs no, with launches yes. Because the story you have to tell in a launch is a bit longer, in fact, it's the hero's journey there, but with VSLs no, because it's already well-aligned from that brain-dump call, from what I've already extracted from him regarding the story I wanted to use. And I just use criteria again: what's good for the background, what's good for the emotional story, and what's good for the discovery story. I didn't have that much trouble regarding that. That's always, related to size, like, based on

the size of the niche's VSL. I see that, that makes sense. If the VSL for that specific niche doesn't happen to feature things like, for example, an emotional story, or a discovery story, I'm not going to use that. You don't really do that. Is there any specific case where you decide to include it, even when you see the niche's VSL doesn't have it? Man, only if I see that it's going to be better, you know? Like, if I see there's an opening, you know, like when the ball is bouncing? I'm going to take a shot

at this goal, it's going to be a great goal. So when I see an opening like that. I put it in, like, I make sure to put my own personal additions in there. It's complicated, man. I can't not put it in, dude. Back in the day I didn't run them, I was an affiliate, right, back in the day, man, 2017. Bizarrely, guys, it's already going to be what? It's going to be almost 10 years next year that I've been doing this, actually, it's already been, right? I started in 2014, but it'll be 10 years since

I was an affiliate, because before I was a freelance copywriter, I wrote copy for others, and only in 2017 did I actually become an affiliate. But I didn't run the producer's copy, man. I refused to run copy, because I'd say: "I'm not running this, no fucking way." I'd redo everything to run it, even when it converted. Ridiculous, right, man? It was ridiculous, yeah. I should've just run it, made my money there, but no. In fact, the story doesn't have many mysteries, I would say. No, there isn't, there's no mystery, man. Is there anything specific that

you notice your mentees doing, some sort of major common challenge that almost all of them end up facing along the way? I would say that within the story, with an expert, the main differentiator you can have is making the story truly tangible for the person. Because the guy who has a black VSL, what is he going to use? They are just going to rely on stock images, or perhaps they will use AI-generated video. With an expert, no, you have real footage there, real photos, you know? You can incorporate all of that directly into your VSL,

and it is truly incredibly important. For instance, just to give you a clear example, Back when we used to do a lot of launches, we used a strategy that was just to tell the specialist's story before the CPL, because then we didn't waste much time in the CPL telling the story, we'd go straight into the content, Which we called a miniseries. It was a miniseries with three episodes, where I would narrate the complete hero's journey of my specialist across those three episodes. So, starting from where he began, where he went, and what he built, and

so forth. It's structured like the VSL block, divided into three major episodes. And the whole thing was very visual; the man would travel back to the place where he was born or, let's say, where he worked first. So, if you can actually manage to incorporate that element right into your VSL, it's going to be exceptionally beneficial, because it provides a necessary visual breather right there, ensuring it's not just the guy staring straight into the camera talking while a whole bunch of text and graphics keep popping up on the screen. So offering those kinds of mental

breaks with, Real-world footage, even if you spend some time going out to record it, is really important. Very good, man. That sort of thing happens often, like in those VSLs that include those scene breaks. Sometimes the guy is going to record, so you take the story block and record it separately, recording, I don't know, one sentence in one location and another sentence in a completely different place. I have an expert that I don't know how he manages to do this. He recorded the whole VSL, he recorded the audio first, put it in his ear here

and recorded the whole VSL listening, man. Damn, this guy is a real beast. He is really smooth, isn't he? He's awesome. So that is how we managed to shoot a VSL in a completely different setting, I really value that. Having Those scene breaks right there, exactly where the blocks are located. I am going to ask you all of that, man. At the very end, I am going to ask about how to edit the VSL. Because we still have . four more funnels to talk about, right, man. I'm just kidding. Man, look, if you keep up

this average, okay? You spoke for four hours here on the VSL funnel, and you said there are five. Five times four is twenty. You'd be talking for twenty hours, man. And I don't doubt it, okay? Because this man's tongue right here don't stop. But in a little bit he is going to be sadder, guys, because we are going to play some FIFA. Then he is going to... can you imagine if I lose? Because you are very... Man, it would be the biggest loss in the history of the podcast if you lost to me. Look, I

think you could beat Anderson, man. Gab too. Gab's bad, Right, Gab? You don't even play. Yeah, you'd beat Gab right there. Maybe you could actually beat Gab, since he doesn't play. Damn, Gab, you are going to be the front line then, man. The next time a guest comes over who doesn't play—which isn't your case—but when someone doesn't play, I'll put them up against you. Do you get what I am saying? Yeah, man, so since you are also pretty bad at it, like, maybe you guys will actually be able to understand each other. Look, man, I

really wanted to ask you a question regarding the very last section of our VSL, which is the lead, alright? And before doing that, after that I am going to ask you one more little thing, and my intention is to wrap up the podcast. Unless you go crazy or something, I don't know, reveal some really bizarre stuff that I don't know About. Yeah, but man, remember I told you back there that I mapped out point A, point B, that I was going to interrupt you, and all that? Because I do a briefing here, you know, guys,

for the folks at home, i mean for the people here, sorry, where I tell them I am going to interrupt them on purpose, and I actually will, so I can try to extract the topic right there. But man, you are actually sitting here telling me about several different parallels all at once, okay? With copy for launches. Because in launches we do it this way, in launches we do such and such, in launches it is like this, it is like that, whatever. Alright, man, that is awesome. I thought it was cool. I have never done a

launch, okay? Back when I first started studying copywriting, do you have any idea who the very first copywriter I ever studied was, man? It wasn't the second, it was the very first, man, the very first. The first copywriter I studied was Gary Halbert. I literally did not know about a single other copywriter out there. He's the guy who explained it to me, man, what a privilege, right? That is a real privilege, totally, man. Like, my mind never really took in any other copy that wasn't exactly that stuff. It was just that, then Gary Halbert said:

"First, there is John Carlton", then John Carlton, and then it just went on, then I started pulling the thread, which are exactly these guys that you studied too, you know? And like, look, I, João, am really proud regarding those guys there, because they completely changed my life, in a bizarre way. And man, I even interviewed one of them right here, you know, David Ogilvy, and I interviewed Brian Kurtz here as Well. I interviewed several, several guys out there, folks from old-school direct marketing. So I genuinely have this deep sense of pride, and I always speak

about it with pride. Now, since you actually come from the world of product launches, man, just out of sheer curiosity, for launch copywriters, is there some kind of cult, or a real sense of pride in that? Like, is the admiration and knowledge of launch copy really that deep? Are there actual references for this out there or is there just nothing at all, man? I understand what you mean. There are most certainly references out there. Just as an example, back when I first started writing copy for product launches, my primary reference was Marcelo Braggion, who actually

did all the launches over there for the... From MR? Shout out to Marcelo. He's really cool I attended the first Copy Experience. Damn, dude. You can see that I was the first in a bunch of things. My first Copy Experience was just last year, dude. Rock Vega was there. Then I dropped some copy on Rock and said: "Man, I am really sad about my operation". And . Yeah, man, this story . honestly man, I am going to skip that story. I'll skip that story. But in the end, I ended up working there at Empiricus. And

definitely there is, like, a certain reference, for example, ROAS is one, he's a reference, in the subject of copy for launches, especially because he has a monstrous framework over there to do the copy for the CPLs, etc. Leandro Aguiari is a reference too for . he's a really good reference. So there are indeed some references like that, they are mostly here inside the country, not, like, outside the way DR copy is, you know? Yeah, I get it. This right here is actually a much more localized thing. And is there a fight, man? Do people look

at DR copy, those guys who are launch copywriters, and say that it doesn't work, that it's bad, or whatever. Is there a feud? Because I can guarantee you that the DR crowd, at least some of them, okay? Not me. I'm Switzerland, man. I'm cool, okay? My thing is VTurb, I really do not care about anything at all. But I have several friends, and friends of yours too, okay? You know who they are. The guys talk trash, man. "Launch copywriter my ass, whatever and all that". What's your... Man, there definitely is, man. Nowadays, I'd say not

anymore, with this Popularization of the VSL funnel, but back in the day there was a lot. They said it was a scam, that people only did lying copy, didn't do copy based on the truth. So much so that there's a copywriter . And there's a lot of truth too, right? If you say that the, launch guys are making things up, it's not true. Exactly. And then there is even a famous copywriter, in the market who I think created a product based on that, copy not based on promises, something like that, and I just don't remember.

Do you remember who the guy is, man? You can say it, we'll beep it out. Yeah, i remember who it is, is the. Oh, really? Wow! That one we really can't talk about, alright? But anyway, and, there was this feud, okay? This feud existed. Personally speaking, I have never experienced a conflict of that nature regarding direct response copywriters, even back when I worked with product launches, because I always learned how to use information well, and like, I am a Christian, and Paul says that we should carefully retain what is good from any source, and then

decide for ourselves whether or not it is appropriate to apply it. And I have always been like that, so much so that I don't know if you might remember Gabriel from Copy class. Sure. It's from Copy Classics, right? Copy Classics, yeah. is it Gabriel Constantino? Constantino. Constantino. Is it Constantino or Constantin? O man, I think it's— Well, I think it's Constantino. I have a group with him, good people. And then, right around that particular time when I actually started studying DR a lot more, I realized: "man, this actually makes sense to apply to a launch,

logical point, one belief, and so on." There is no reason to be fighting, I think things match up. I think that, obviously, there will be copywriters who have an easier time doing a launch, and there will be other copywriters who will find it a whole lot easier to write out a VSL. But when you actually utilize both of those skill sets, which, for instance, was exactly the case for me, I notice that one thing really boosts the other. You know what I mean? So I think this beef is just nonsense, I don't think it should

exist, no. And my personal observation, I am not entirely sure if you would agree with me, but I genuinely think that the launch crowd . like, is far more artistic. It's almost like poetry, they have much greater creativity to know exactly what will catch people's attention, and what the audience is really going to want. Whereas the direct marketing guy, on the other hand, he is actually much more analytical and mathematical. So it seems like one is much more rational, the other is much more creative, poetic. I see it more or less like that. I don't

see launch copies, like, very structured there with really good logical points, but they have some really good ideas, man. Some stuff that is really— Yes, that is exactly right. When it comes to the actual level of ideas, they are honestly really good. Yeah, I think it hits on that a lot. But man, anyway, I said I was going to Interrupt. But getting back to it, leads, okay? I'm not quite sure, what exactly is a lead, and how are you supposed to go about doing it? The lead is essentially the actual opening of your entire VSL.

I think it is kind of an 80/20 thing, because if the person doesn't see your beginning and they don't... doesn't grab their attention, they're not going to see your story, they're not going to see your mechanism, and they won't see your offer. In other words, you took all the work we've been talking about here for hours, and threw it in the trash. And man, a lead for me— There are actually a few specific types of leads that I really enjoy testing out whenever I am preparing to put together an offer. Generally, I like to, For

example, we did that spying thing. I see what angle the guy is using for his lead and I use that exact same angle, the lead that he defined. But, I personally really love using the secret lead. I really like using... What's that, for those who don't know. The secret lead is essentially a specific type of lead where you just do not reveal your underlying mechanism right there . There is a secret to such a thing. So, like, there is a new way for you to use a mental template to guarantee your approval in any civil

service exam you are going to take. And in this specific video right here, I am actually going to show you exactly how so-and-so, how what's-his-name got approved, and so on. So it is more of a mystery lead right there, something more like that. Another type of lead that I really like to use is the contrary lead. There is actually a relationship VSL of mine. Which is from Chosen Forever, we made a variation of it to build a VSL, where I did this contrary lead, which is kind of like that Chris Haddad lead over there. "In

this video, I am going to reveal the biggest lie about whatever, whatever, whatever." So I also like bringing in this contrary lead, especially when you are selling to a market of dissatisfied people. So I really like testing it. And the other type of lead is the promise lead. Just the basics right there. A promise, but then the type of promise lead that I like to make, I like to associate the promise with some visual element that will generate curiosity in my video. So, for example, right here, we are going to make a VSL, this board

right here is covered. On this board here, under this cloth, is the number one secret of the biggest direct response operations in Brazil, what they are doing today in 2026 To be able to scale. Hell yeah. You know? Is it really? What did you put here, Gab? So I really like to tie it directly to that sense of curiosity. Basically, I understand that the role of my lead is just one thing: to build curiosity, spark interest right there, and answer a single question: why exactly does the person have to keep watching the video all the

way to the very end? There are dozens of lead frameworks out there that a person can use, some techniques, like, you start with the promise, then right after that promise you discuss the problem, you anticipate the solution, anticipate the mechanism, And at the very end, you wrap everything up with three or four intriguing curiosity bullets right there. "And later on in this exact video, I am going to reveal the absolute true mystery behind whatever, whatever." So, my overall line of thought whenever I am putting together a lead is essentially the following: what, kind of curious

information do I have to share here to hook this person? Just like John Carlton says in his book, it's the itch, you know? You have to spark an itch in the person, and until they scratch that itch, they won't stop. So I always keep that as a fundamental principle whenever I am putting together a lead. So, defining the angle and the format I'm going to use comes from the market research we did. We figure out if it is going to be in a podcast format, if it Will be more of a lo-fi style looking directly

at the camera, or if it will be a Q&A box or a challenge format. So, I generally define about three different types of formats right there just to be able to thoroughly test them out. But then, of course, comes the actual testing cadence, okay? So, just recently I ended up making a VSL for a major player out there in the market. It was a really quick turnaround, actually; I only had about a week to put it all together. So, what exactly was our primary objective right from the very start? It was to validate the copy.

It's not about validating retention, it's about validating conversion. And in that case, the leads are all recorded in the exact same setting, just changing the angle. So we validate a lead here, this lead is converting, what's the next step? We vary the format, we make new leads in new formats, a completely different new Format. I think that's the point. And one thing that's really good, especially for the market right now, is leveraging YouTube videos, man. YouTube videos, if you look at them today, are very well produced, Mr.Beast's videos or several other channels out there, guys

are taking real care with the video openings. Because of that, you can actually model the lead structure of a high-performing YouTube video with millions of views, just like the VTurb podcast right here. Honestly, I have no idea who handles the intro editing, but hats off to them, they do an incredible job. Yeah, it is actually really good. So, like, do you see what I mean right here? The intro for the VTurb podcast is an absolutely insane type of lead that just forces the viewer to keep watching the whole thing straight through to the very End.

So it's all about modeling that structure, you know? We can even put that quote of yours right at the beginning of the podcast. That way, people stick around to see what to model, since it'll be the intro itself, you know what I mean? Dude, you mentioned earlier that there are actually several different types of leads, right? Like, a promise lead, a problem, a secret, and so on and so forth. You mentioned the contrary lead earlier. And we all know that the lead is, well, like you said, it is pretty much an 80/20 rule. If the

lead happens to be good, it can make a massive amount of sales; if it's bad, it might not sell anything whatsoever. And I have personally seen an offer go from making zero sales, man, to generating R$600,000 a day simply by changing out the lead, okay? Creative Lead. To be completely honest with you. The guys who made that were Ale and Luka, from Group Six. Their podcast will show up on the screen. They are, honest to god, insanely good at what they do. And out of all those types, right? Is there any type you recommend people

do when they don't have, experience with leads? Maybe a type you see that works best or is easiest for someone to do, the bread and butter, that, look, if I were to just do it here, it usually tends to turn out well. Is there any one of those that you would recommend? The promise lead. Yeah, I think it's the easiest to do and, if the guy just handles the basic elements right there, he can definitely manage to hook the person right from the start. But then, what does the guy have to watch out for there?

In the very first argument of the promise lead, what exactly do I look to have in my opening line? I need to have a clear promise, I need to have proof, and I need to have an element of curiosity. Because by doing that, I end up closing the loop right inside the person's head. So I am going to show you this curious object right here, which this person used to achieve this result, and that you are going to use to get that exact same result. So, the very first sentence of the promise lead is actually,

like, very important in this whole regard. And then you have the end of the promise lead, which consists of the bullets. The person really needs to vary the bullets right there. Among the bullets I recommend, there is the secret bullet. Explain to the folks what a bullet is, for those who don't know. Bullets are, in the simplest way possible, essentially mini headlines, Let's say, that you place directly into your copy. And these mini headlines actually come in several different types. For instance, there is one type that you start with the word "how." How . sleeping

more can actually help you lose weight while working out causes you to gain weight all over again. What you should never do whenever you start a new diet, because if you do this, you could run the serious risk of gaining like 10 times more weight. "The secret to such and such a thing." So I always like to use "how," "the secret," and "what." One of those, and "X ways." "X ways to regulate your sleep, regulate your testosterone so you can get that specific result." And where do you extract these bullets from? You extract them from

the content of your VSL. You are going to extract them right from your mechanism over there. You can even Extract them from your offer, because there are actually a few clever lead tricks you can use. There is the gift trick, like: "for those of you who watch until the very end, I am going to . release a special gift for you that is valid right here in this video." And then there is another trick, which is actually an editing trick, So while the person is speaking on screen, imagine I am saying: "and you are still

going to see X ways for you to regulate your cortisol." Then, right alongside me, a clip from further ahead in the video appears where I am explaining it, but completely camouflaged. You know? So these are editing tricks that really help with the retention of that lead. These are very good tricks man. the lead is one of the most creative parts of a VSL right? So it's complicated for us to give a framework to the folks, You know? And it's hard, man. But one specific way that I personally think about it is that I always try

to start off the lead using those exact elements you mentioned earlier: promise, proof, and curiosity. Which is essentially what Evaldo was talking about over there, right? I think it's a good . like, a way to start. So I always start off that way, and I always end with those specific bullets you mentioned, which are basically mini headlines driven by curiosity: "how to do such a thing, why you shouldn't do such a thing, when to do such a thing, the specific thing that accomplishes such a thing, and secret X that brings about such a result." The

main function of that in my mind is that they serve as secondary hooks, Because if the person reaches the very end of the lead and still hasn't made up their mind about whether to stay and watch, maybe just one of those points will be enough to make them want to watch, so they really act as secondary hooks. And then this middle of the lead, man, the way I do it is . Like, what I actually used to do in that specific situation was simply add elements of proof. Back to the very first promise that I

made, and I continue adding in various proof elements until I reach the specific lead size that I want. And what really changes the substance of the lead in that instance is simply the order in which I arrange those proof elements. So for example, I am going to say it like this: "Hi, my name is João, and right underneath this sign here lies the secret for you to make millions and millions in The digital space." So right there you have a promise, a little bit of curiosity, but there is no proof. So, I don't know, like,

how exactly would I go about changing that? "Oh, right under here, hi, my name is João, and underneath this sign there is something that the absolute biggest players in digital marketing use to make millions, and if you use it as well, you can also make money." So right there you have curiosity, you have a bit of proof regarding the players, and you have the direct promise that the person is going to make money. Then right after that, what is the next thing that I can say? I can actually say so many different things. And usually,

it ends up being an element of proof, in the vast majority of cases, Which can end up being just a bit of proof, it can be a whole lot of proof, or Even a bit of proof combined with a bit of curiosity. And as a result, by using different proof elements, I create entirely different leads. So I could actually say it like this: ". this method here, you might not know it yet, but it is already being used by the absolute biggest players in Brazil, like so-and-so, so-and-so, and whatever." This is a specific proof element

where I am citing who is using it, so it serves as social proof. I could also put it like this: ". this method right here is completely different from everything you have ever seen before, because while most people are out there trying to sell today, spending a whole month just to put together a launch, this method actually sells in 15 minutes." So right now I used another type of proof, which is what? I explained why it is actually different without revealing what it really is. So It still serves as proof, because I am showing that

it is different, but it also carries a bit of curiosity, because people go: "okay, but how so? Why is it so fast?" I could add another element like, And then I say that this method here is being used by those specific people, and right after that I could say: "The absolute best part is that this method has already been validated by thousands and thousands of people, just like you." "Like for example, just take a look at João Pedro here from Rio de Janeiro, who used this method right here and managed to get great results." So,

like, you keep the exact same opening, but the specific proof element that I put in right after is completely different. And after that, there's another proof element. And I can put whatever proof Element in there, and I can guide that whole thing whichever way I want to. Yeah. So I'm always gonna have the exact same start, but the middle part is different depending on the proof element, and then you have two variables right there, which is how many proof elements I actually put in, and in what order, you know? And I can actually put, like,

10 proof elements and have a 1,500-word lead, or I can basically just put three or four and have a lead that's around 600 or 700 words. And then I'll guide the lead length based on the average VSL length in that niche. So if the VSL is 700 words long, my lead is gonna be 700 words long right there as well. And as for the order of the proof elements I put in, I usually try to prioritize the highest-impact proof first, which is usually something like, man, if I have Warren Buffett using my investment course, I'm

gonna say: "Right Below here is the exact thing for you to invest, do this and that, and make a lot of money." Second line: "This is the exact same method that Warren Buffett, the biggest investor in the world, actually uses," because that's my biggest proof point right there. If I don't have that, and I only have the mechanism, then I just put the mechanism right there. "This thing works completely differently in this and that way, it works like this and that, and that's why it's gonna work for you too." So I always rank the single

biggest proof first, then I scale it down and try to put just enough proof to hit the right length, you know? It's basically a framework, get it? For you watching at home, if you rewatch what I just said, I think everyone can follow along. But I don't think it's that good, man. I honestly think it's pretty basic stuff. But when you say not that good, in what sense, like, regarding... I just think it's not gonna make a lead that's... Super badass. Insanely good, you know? Yeah, because here's what I see nowadays, okay? A good lead

today isn't any different, for example, from the black market, it's not that super wild lead, like some brand-new scientific discovery or whatever. And usually, that type of lead doesn't work well with an expert. I'm telling you, I've already tested this in a few niches and it just didn't work. Usually, the more TikTok-style the lead is, the better it performs. So..... let's say we're gonna make an offer for TikTok. A TikTok-style lead, man. Very nice. A TikTok-style lead. If we're gonna make a TikTok Shop offer, I'm definitely gonna leverage, again, the importance of the expert validating

the format. If there's already a validated format on their profile, I'm gonna start My lead in that exact format right away. So, say, the format of testing out different new things. "So this is my second day here testing out a brand-new way I found to actually make money on TikTok. Look right here, I just withdrew $1,000 into my account." Then... Then a woman comes in saying: "Wow, I really didn't believe it, but I actually pulled it off." Then it cuts and says: "Oh, this was so-and-so, she was my friend, my neighbor right here." Man, just

from the fact that I laughed right there, this lead must have sold like crazy. So, the more TikTok-style the lead is, the better. That's why leads today are getting much shorter, you know? People look heavily at that first-minute metric Today. "Oh, the first minute always has to stay above 60%." But if we actually look at real leads, even longer leads, I think nowadays a long lead is maybe five minutes long or so, get it? So— Five minutes of lead is a huge deal, man. yeah, they are leads like... they're much shorter leads, like a minute

and a half, two minutes max, get it? It's usually that kind of thing. I actually consider Guto's lead long, okay? His lead is, I think, literally five minutes. Five full minutes of lead. But overall, the more TikTok-style it is, the better. And another thing is changing scenarios fast in the lead. Changing things up real fast. Not just stock footage, but the actual environment the person is shooting in. That impacts retention immensely right there. Man, um.... I'm honestly feeling so completely obsolete in the copywriting World, you know? Because I used to write such aggressive leads back

in the day. There was the era of storytelling leads. oh, Storytelling leads. Storytelling leads were so good. Today, secret leads are what rules the game, right? At least outside Brazil, I know it is, and in Brazil, I think it is too, man. Secret leads. Yeah, storytelling leads are making a comeback now, okay? They're coming back, but kind of disguised as a secret lead. There's this woman scaling a VSL in the make-money-online niche whose lead is a pure storytelling lead. Like: This is my mom. My mom knew absolutely nothing about this whole thing. She learned this

right here, and now she doesn't even... "Look at the money she withdrew!" Yeah, exactly. So it's a storytelling lead disguised with proof elements, get it? Got it, man. So yeah, it's coming back in that sense. So, when I write VSLs for the personal development niche, like that audio offer example, I really like using a superstructure like a... What's that about, man? Like, tell the audience here what the gurus actually taught you with that whole superstructure stuff. Alen was the one who came up with that too, man. That Alen guy is sharp. And did you learn

it, or like.. Dude, I'll tell you right now, you either learned it from Vakuda or from Tiagão? It was with Tiagão. I knew it, man! I'm telling you, trust Tiagão, man. yeah, it was with Tiagão. A superstructure, man, is... basically me hijacking an endorsement From someone else, so to speak. If there's someone globally famous, I can use them as a proof element inside my VSL. Like the VSL I wrote for the audio niche, where the person listens to audio to get rich. What are my superstructures there? It's Elon Musk, it's the.... Only top-tier people. It's

that energy guy, Nikola Tesla, Static Shock. You put Tesla in there, man? I put Static Shock in there. Man, I guarantee you guys, I guarantee that this copy scaled big, or did it not? yeah, it scaled like crazy. Of course it scaled, man. Why? Because it's funny, bro.... Man, I've been doing this thing for 12 years now. It never fails. Like, if it's not funny... It doesn't convert. It doesn't convert, man. You have to read it and say: "Holy crap, that's insane." Yeah man, like... I put—look, in that copy, I put Elon Musk, I put

Nikola Tesla, I put Pablo Marçal, Dwayne Johnson from Moana, who plays The Rock, you know? No way, The Rock too? Crap, man. I think I put one more guy in there, but— But what did you say? I said something like, that the secret behind all these super rich guys, like, all of them said it was the exact same thing, which is energy. So it's the importance of the person understanding energy, which has nothing to do with the law of attraction, right, but rather reprogramming their mind for success. And the best way for a person to

do that is by tapping into specific brainwaves, which in this case is the theta wave right there. Then I say that, and I actually like bringing this up to debunk alternative mechanisms inside my solution mechanism, you get it? So people will tell you that, meditating actually helps you out. Total Lie, it just doesn't work at all because of this and that. They'll tell you that you really need to go to those kinds of neuro clinics where they hook machines to your head. It doesn't help and it basically just makes you waste money. Which brings in

another thing I brought over from when I used to build CPLs, which is anchoring throughout the entire funnel, right? You have expert anchoring, method anchoring, and value anchoring. And I can easily bring those elements in. So when I debunk other methods inside my solution mechanism, I'm automatically anchoring them right there, you know? And I really love doing this when I come up with a solution mechanism that's really, really hard to believe, but where there are already a few known ones that people actually accept. Like that neuro clinic idea where they attach stuff to Your brain,

and I say it doesn't work. I dismantle it using... Got it, man. Using those superstructures like that. Nice. A way to think about a superstructure, we could say, for example, if a guy is selling local business traffic, he won't sell just traffic itself, he'll sell the actual tool. He'll say like: "Man, I'm literally gonna place you on... the exact same tool that the biggest companies in the world use and spend billions and billions to get results with." Right. And then you use the tool's social proof, which in the end is where you're gonna put the

client, you're gonna put them on Facebook, on Google. Right. And then you use that social proof to sell your service. And then you can actually reposition yourself as a part of that whole thing. And the level of proof goes up insanely high because you're borrowing proof from That entity, from that business, from that superstructure, as people always call it, in order to put it into your message. That's really it, right? That's exactly it. Got it, nice. Man, I have one more question about the lead topic, okay? Because the reality is we can't build a rigid

framework for a lead, because guys, there isn't one. You have to write your own. But since you review a lot of leads out there, man, you have tons of mentees, you do calls and all that kind of stuff, what do you think is honestly the biggest mistake they make in the lead? What do you really see people doing repeatedly? Man, that one is super easy to answer, obviously. The guy wants to reveal everything right there in the lead. I mean, he doesn't build any mystery in the lead at all. The guy reveals the problem mechanism,

the solution mechanism, and he reveals part of the expert's story, all inside the lead. They're way too rushed. And the lead isn't about saying too much, it's really about saying less, you see? And it's heavily focused on creating curiosity around a single core factor. What's the one single factor that will make the person curious enough to stick around? So I think it's over-anticipating things. That's the single biggest mistake people make when writing a lead. And it's glaring because you can spot it right on the retention graph. Usually, retention drops heavily right around the first minute,

there's a huge drop, and the main factor is: either people revealed way too much right there, Or they brought in extremely aggressive claims that sound fake and failed to prove them. Broadly speaking, those are the two main things I see that ruin a lead the most. Revealing too much, or being way too aggressive without proving what you're saying. And if they end up revealing too much, like, could we say that this also makes the lead confusing, or are those actually two different things altogether? Look, What does making a lead confusing actually mean to me? It's

when the guy has already included all the information he needed in that lead, but I really don't know what goes through his head, he keeps telling the exact same story using different words, you know? Then you look at it and go: "Man, cut this out, why is this even here? It makes no sense." . So I realize that what actually makes it boring is that. The person already said "water." Then they go back and say: "No, it's crystal-clear water." Then they go again: "No, it's crystal-clear water from a Tibetan monk, from I don't know who..."

It gets boring, man, nobody can stand That stuff. I remember when I reviewed copies, like, including Tiagão's own copy, right? Filemon's own copy. I remember that the main feedback I would always give was this, I'd say: "Man, you're putting a bunch of concepts in here that either shouldn't be here, or if they were actually supposed to be here, they had to be put in a completely different way." And then the guy would show up with a 1,500-word lead, when it was really supposed to be 700 or 800 words. And a huge mess right there. He

would talk about one thing and go back to talk about another, there was no line... No congruence right there. No congruence, right, no logical line from one sentence to another. Usually, they were really long sentences. So I used to say: "Man, short sentences." Ideally a small sentence right there and immediately another one right underneath, so if the person were to read it, they could read it smoothly, without seeing a giant block of text. So I always gave feedback regarding that part of the writing, you know? And that is super important, because today people write VSLs

using AI, and AI gives you those ridiculous giant blocks of text. And then, you as a co-producer, you as a strategist, you have to plug into this to understand it so you can guarantee your lead will actually be good. Which is what? It's that way of formatting it inside Google Docs with the right words. I think that's super important, man. Because you only put what's strictly necessary for the editing process, the words that go on screen, same thing, otherwise it's just giant blocks of text on screen and... Yeah, like, that way of writing in copywriting

has the concept of eye relief, which is basically being able to look at the text and read it smoothly. But nowadays it's not really read anymore, right? Things are listened to and watched through video. However, man, . I think that concept translates over. I think it's definitely totally worth it— and another thing dude, the communication happens, against the person's senses and all that stuff, like, recently I actually wrote an offer to sell some gluten-free bread. My VSL has to be as much as possible, how do I really put it, like.. It has to be... like,

I have to show the thing that the person almost has to taste the bread in their mouth, so to speak, get it? So it has to be— Damn, Gab, he went way too heavy on that one. The bread, man. Crap, man. Oh, he waited four hours of podcast to drop that line, bro. Worse part is I didn't even catch the word bread at first. "You gotta taste the bread in your mouth." Whoa! Pause on that. The gluten-free bread in the... Like, the person has to feel it, it has to be a sensory thing for them,

right? Man, that's top-tier. And, bro, let me ask you what I think will be the last question of this podcast, okay? I mean, maybe, right? dude, let's say the person watched this, .took the lead from their niche, right? then took the tips we gave, mixed it all up and created their own. because there's no set framework, there are infinite ways to make a lead. There are fewer, actually there is a framework, which is what I just told you. But he went ahead and built his lead. right. You mentioned multiple times that thing about formats and

dynamic stuff. So, I wanted you to tell me, to share what you think is important in VSL editing, because I wanted the guy to leave this podcast with the final VSL file ready. And look, guys, we won't talk about creatives and we won't talk about the other four funnels here. Fuck, we already said that, actually, I gotta stop swearing, people are already giving feedback on that, my bad guys. so we can't talk about the other four funnels, there's just no way at all, you know? We'd have to do at least four podcasts, all four hours

long each, actually five, which would be 20 hours, which is way too much, right? So what tip do you give people to edit a VSL? Is editing that important in the first place? Does any basic edit work? What do you have to say about that? Alright, I think it's really like this: if you're launching your very first VSL, nowadays you shouldn't even worry about making a super high-production VSL right out of the gate, hiring a studio, hiring... No. You're gonna shoot a lo-fi VSL. You're gonna grab your expert and record them as if you were

shooting a simple phone story. That works really well like that. For what? So you can validate the copy of your VSL first. After that, then you worry about editing. Then you go ahead and do an edit that people call a dopaminergic edit. And what is a dopaminergic edit? Your VSL is a, .is like a video content asset, a video consumption asset, right? And today, people watch Netflix, people watch YouTube, people watch TikTok, they watch different series, and there are visual breaks throughout those videos. So you're definitely not gonna watch a series, like the one I'm

literally watching right now, "House of the Dragon", do you even know that show? Are you watching it? I'm watching it, it's really good. Are you watching season three though? No, I just started watching it now. You just started watching it? yeah, just now. I'm really not liking it, man... Really? Have you seen Game of Thrones? No Damn, man. I haven't seen Game of Thrones. What do you mean, man? You started watching House of the Dragon without watching Game of Thrones? Without watching Game of Thrones. Crap, that's wild, man. Man, go watch Game of Thrones, bro.

I'm gonna watch Game of Thrones then. It's way better than House of the Dragon. I'll watch it man. I don't even know how you're finding that show good, honestly. It's Because I like the whole style of it, I guess. Because it feels so slow, man. You're gonna like Game of Thrones way more. It has way more action going on. You're crazy, man. Only the ending that was actually—no, let me not give spoilers. Yeah, keep quiet over there, alright? But watch Game of Thrones. Hey, whoever thinks Game of Thrones is better, leave a comment here. Whoever

thinks House of the Dragon is better, well, then do nothing. And so you can't watch a static series in the exact same setting, because it always gets boring for the viewer. And in your VSL, you really have to do the same thing. So what do I actually like to do? Every block, we have the blocks: we have the lead, the story, the mechanism, the offer. I like to shoot every single block in a different setting to have that visual break, that pattern interrupt. And there are blocks where you can work on different scene breaks within

that specific block. Inside the mechanism block, I'd say it's the hardest one to Have scene breaks in, because the person watching that block really needs to be like a student, they're learning about the problem, and learning about your mechanism. In the lead, you can actually have setting breaks within that same block, so you can shoot the intro of your lead—like, I can shoot an intro right here, then I can shoot another sentence inside the car, then I can shoot another sentence walking down on the street, just to bring that extra dynamism right at the beginning

of my video. So I really think that, With an expert, that is really super important for you to have that visual break. And another thing, if you have a big expert, people are always curious to see more of their life, like, if you're at the expert's house, people are curious. It's funny, because the best ads, you guys who work with experts will Know exactly what I'm talking about right here. The ads that convert the absolute most are the ads where the expert is sitting inside their car. Oh really? Yeah, I don't know why. People are

curious to know what car it is. yeah, It's the highest converting style. It's the secondary hook, man. The person is sitting there trying to figure out what car it is while listening to the copy and getting persuaded. Exactly. So those pattern interrupts with settings are fundamental in my opinion. And then you have to figure out the recording dynamic, man: if your expert is gonna read off a teleprompter, you pause and record every single scene nicely, then the editor figures out how to put it together, or if your expert works like mine, who records while listening

to their own voice and the VSL track. That guy is next level. And that makes it so much easier, but you gotta have those breaks. I think it's super important. I think I'd be a great expert, man, because I already talk to the camera a lot, right? So I think I'd pull that whole thing off pretty easily. Totally true. Man, I know you already said that's something you define, like, right back at the start when you're beginning the VSL process, right? but right here in editing, we have a crucial choice, which is choosing the format

itself. Like you said: "In the beginning let's just go lo-fi, let's not go to a studio and all that." Once a person actually has a validated VSL right there. What can someone do in this editing stage to take it to a whole new level? Because it seems like something that's super easy, you know, like, it's just editing, it's not changing the copy or doing anything crazy. Yeah, let's look at that. First off, why lo-fi in the first place? First, it's so we can actually measure the conversion rate of our copy and our offer. Great, The

copy is converting, but maybe the retention rate isn't that great yet. So what are we going to fix? We're going to improve our retention. I'd much rather have a retention problem at the very beginning than a conversion problem. So, And then what are we going to do next? We're going to actually clarify and refine, so to speak, the entire recording of our VSL right there. And that's when the guy can actually move into a real studio setting, but it really depends. Like, if you're a doctor talking to men over 40, man, start your VSL just

showing a big belly like that, you know? Make some kind of joke or something like that just to break the pattern right away. So yeah, I definitely like to go down that route. And as for the formats, like I said, the formats I vary the most are usually the lead formats. So yeah, we have a lo-fi VSL that we're currently optimizing. What are we going To do? Well, we'll shoot the story block in one location, the mechanism block in another location, and for the leads, we'll test them based on our highest-performing ads, using those exact

top ad formats, and simply plug them right at the front of our VSL. That's pretty much what I do. Nice, awesome. And dude, I really wanted to thank you for your time. Thanks for coming here to the VTurb podcast. How long was that, Gab? four hours and....? Holy shit. um... Damn, man. That was intense, huh? Wow, man. Pretty wild, right? But we're gonna edit this down to around four hours, so it's still gonna be a pretty long episode. It's definitely one of the longest in VTurb history, man. I totally knew it'd be long. That's exactly

why I left my car in the parking lot, I knew it, I was 100% sure this was going to happen. I just didn't tell you beforehand so I wouldn't put any pressure on you. Because if I told you: "Man, today you're going to talk for four hours straight," you'd probably say: "Hell no." But you talk, man, because as we chat, time just flies by. Yeah, it just flows smoothly. Look, I guarantee you guys watching at home, I don't host long podcast episodes just because I like to. It's just because I feel like that's what makes

it actually good. Exactly. Just imagine, if we do a one-hour podcast, what do we talk about? How to pick an expert, and that's it. Exactly, just that. Done, go home, pick your expert. so man... I don't really remember if I asked you this already, I know you're a partner over with Holzer now, and you guys actually have mentees there. So, I don't know if you specifically offer any kind of direct mentorship or consulting where people can just work with you directly one-on-one. Man, right now the only thing I offer is high-level consulting. Mentorship, no, I

don't work with general mentorship programs anymore. It's either consulting or direct implementation What's the main difference between those? Consulting means I supervise and optimize their funnel, while implementation means I build and execute it for them. And mentorship? Mentorship is live teaching, right? Teaching the group live. I don't do that anymore. The only mentorship setting I teach in nowadays is inside Black Monster, which is Holzer's mastermind. That's the only place where I Teach mentorship. Nice, awesome. And what if people watched this episode, liked you, and said: "Man, Johab is a..." It's Johab, not Jorrabe, guys. Johab.

Johab, got it. "Man, Johab here is a super sharp guy and all, I really want him to come in and oversee my business or build that whole strategy for me." So how can the people watching this right now eventually become your clients, get great results, and then actually become my client at VTurb? Because that's really what I want here. Right, awesome. They can reach out on my Instagram, Johab, with an H, dot Alves with two Ls. Put it on the screen, editor, his Instagram handle. You can go to my Instagram, send me a DM, and

we'll start a conversation. Look at you, making yourself at home! Even ordering Thiagão to put, to put up the Instagram. Feel free to command, man! Awesome. Yeah, you can go check it out, I'm super accessible and easygoing. We can schedule a chat and brainstorm some ideas. and man, there's one key point I mentioned to you back at lunch regarding that... regarding that AI cart recovery tool, like I told you, right? We can give that as a gift to the VTurb audience if you guys want to... awesome man. want to try it out too. It's called

Active Sales. Active Sales. Is there a website? Yeah, activesales.com.br, if I'm not mistaken. If you're not mistaken, it'll be right on screen. Unless it's a dot io domain, for Example, right? Yeah, I'm not totally sure. Because people love making up those extensions, right? But it'll pop up on screen for you guys, the cart recovery software, if anyone wants to test it out. Yeah, we tested it with Guto and hit a 28% recovery rate, and with Rodrigo Silva we reached a 30% recovery rate. So I think it's really solid. Very nice, great results. Man, so yeah,

for everyone watching at home right now, go check out Johab's Instagram—but remember it has an H, right? so technically Johab, dot Alves with two Ls, right? Alves with two Ls. So it's popping up right on the screen now, guys, his Instagram again, and it'll also be down in the pinned comments. If you want to talk to him, like: "Man, that sounds awesome," and dude, here's a cool thing: I don't even know if I should say this, but, you said it yourself, right? You said you're inaccessible. Accessible. yeah, accessible. But some people come on the show

saying they're accessible, and then they become totally inaccessible because their Instagram DMs get spammed, you know? Diogo Gomes actually asked me to remove his CTA section from his episode because he was getting flooded with messages. Because this podcast has been running for two years, and a year from now it's still going to be generating traffic. People reaching the end will say: "Wow!" and message you. But anyway, it's right there for you guys. Try testing it out, here's a quick tip: try typing "VTurb" in his DMs to see if there's an automated flow set up, because

otherwise it might get Overwhelming for you, right? People have asked me about that multiple times, not once, not twice. They said: "Man, I really regret not setting up an automation." So type "VTurb" in his DMs, if an automated message pops up, just follow it, if not, you're good to go. Then you can chat with Johab like a normal human being by sending a message. And man, I really always close out the podcast by giving the guest the floor to share a final message with the whole VTurb audience, okay? So, some people share a motivational message,

some recap the podcast, talk about God, or really whatever else they just feel like sharing, you see? So dude, just look right into this camera right here, which is your main camera, and share pretty much whatever message you want to give to the VTurb community. Awesome! Man, I think above all, I'm a person of deep faith, right? I'm very religious and truly believe in God. And if you have a project that's just starting to take off, or maybe isn't working out yet, keep the faith a little longer, apply the exact strategies we discussed here today,

and the chances of your project blowing up are huge. Sometimes it's just a tiny tweak, one missing detail you needed to unlock massive results. And I think the most critical lesson is that in digital marketing, you have to be resilient. Even though I'm only 23 years old and quite young, resilience played a massive role in my life, because there are plenty of tough moments in this industry, you know? The market offers massive payouts, absolutely, but you have to stay resilient and have full confidence in what you're building, because if you Don't believe in your own

product, nobody else will believe in it for you. without a doubt. So hold onto that, and always strive to be the absolute best at what you do. If you're going to create a VSL, make a damn good VSL, put your whole heart and soul into it, and the revenue will simply be a natural byproduct. Fall in love with the process and the results will follow. Alright guys, that was just another great episode of the Scaling Secrets podcast. A massive hug to all of you. I'll see you right here next Tuesday at 5 PM. That's a

wrap, take care and see you again next time! Man, thank you so much for watching another episode of Scaling Secrets. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to hit the like button and subscribe to the VTurb YouTube channel so you get fresh episodes delivered straight to your feed. It really means a lot to us. And if you do that, I promise to keep bringing on The best guests to share top-tier content with you, deal? And if you're looking for more episodes to watch, I'll leave two episodes right here on screen from Scaling Secrets for you

to check out. Click on them, give them a watch, it's totally worth it. Big hug, and see you next time!