UAP researcher: Lue Elizondo's new role is a 'controlled narrative' | Reality Check

Good day and welcome back to Reality Check. I'm of course your host, Ross Coulthart. Now, they call him the UAP guru, and he is of course not only a formidable producer of acronyms and loves explaining them to us. He's the guy who's going to tell us what it all means. It's nice to have Sam back again to join us here on Reality Check. Because today, what we're going to do Is go right back to where it all began. Sam, if I was to describe the current situation with the whole UAP mystery, there's a dilemma. At

the moment, we have a government that's promising transparency. It's telling us, it's disclosing. We should be happy. But both of us know there's a bear in the room that's being ignored. And that's the allegation, the central Allegation, that there is a reverse engineering program, a recovery of non-human vehicles. That's not being addressed at the moment, is it? >> No, it's not. Of course, in the White House tranche of files, I think we're about to get our fourth. Uh these files and videos just show anomalous signatures in our skies or our documents that We have seen

before, such as documents of of green fireballs and interesting phenomena over Albuquerque, New Mexico back in the late '40s. So, there's really been nothing new or nothing extraordinary within these drops. >> I have a hunch, and this is what I want to take you to today. I have a hunch that where we're being led is to the idea that eventually we're going to be told, "My goodness me, there is a non-human intelligence. It's clear, it's intelligent, it's operating craft of some kind." I do think at some stage there's going to be an admission by the

government. But that in and of itself is a controlled narrative. Don't you think? >> Yes, on on one hand currently we have the efforts of representative Eric Burlison and David Grusch who are currently sending legal interrogatives To various cabinet-level agencies, services, private corporations, federally funded research and development centers. And these are sets of legally compelling letters for these institutions, agencies, services to kind of hand over their knowledge on the UAP subject including the reverse engineering crash retrieval program or the legacy program as as we like to call it. This in my opinion is the correct

and Best avenue of disclosure right now and if the public could see what's in some of these interrogatives, they would really uh they would really flip their hats and and be interested. >> But it strikes me what we're starting to see now is the beginning of something you and I have known about for some time which is a schism in UFOlogy, a schism in the UAP community. There are those who are Digging for that reverse engineering recovery program of non-human technology and there are those who are saying, "Just be happy with what you've got. Be

happy with the small D disclosure." Is someone trying to control the narrative? >> Yes, uh you made a statement recently as of recording this program where you talked about allegations and rumors of a pretty high-profile person within the UAP topic being appointed at A very high level to um kind of spearhead the disclosure initiative or or be integral to it out of the White House or executive branch. Um I'm going to go ahead and take that leap and I will be very plain here. That individual is Luis Elizondo. And he is currently being tasked, likely

has the position for a uh National Security Council-level role, exactly what he had been looking for as the quote-unquote UAP czar. This is detrimental to the disclosure process. This is extremely concerning. Uh like you said of of partial disclosure, limited disclosure, we have seen this before. This is This takes me back. This takes us back to the year of 2017 in which Lou Elizondo and a cadre of other individuals under a program, an informal working group called AATIP, the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, had been working from from 2009 to roll out a partial disclosure

campaign at the behest of Lieutenant General and [snorts] Director of National Intelligence James Clapper. Once again, we are in this situation and it is perilous for the disclosure effort. >> In 2026, everything and everyone is online. Information's flowing faster than ever And it's difficult to keep track of where your personal information might be going. That's why I want to thank today's sponsor, OmniWatch. I've had experience myself of being hacked and having my credit card details put up online. I think from memory it was a bunch of Russian hackers that took a pile of credit card

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the ring the link in the description below. And to help you safe long-term, use code Ross to secure 50% off your first month of OmniWatch digital protection. Real-time monitoring, real peace of mind. >> Now, what you're suggesting is that 10 Years on from the beginning, if you like, of the disclosure movement, you believe there's another attempt to control the narrative yet again. >> That's correct, and let's unpack this a little bit. >> [snorts] >> Luis Elizondo, there are some staunch allegations that prior to him going public with the Leslie Kean New York Times article in

2017. I think the article's called uh Glowing Auras and Black Money, uh where, you know, three forward-looking infrared videos of anomalous signatures or UAP were released. Uh there are pretty heavy allegations that Luis Elizondo himself had experience within the UAP legacy programs. Uh there hasn't been much discussion about what this role was, but this alleged role was technology protection and uh program protection for the Programs. >> be fair to Lou, Lou has spoken quite openly about the retrieval program, the fact that there are craft that have been recovered. He's candidly admitted that Roswell was real.

He's talked about the reverse engineering program. If you're accusing him of a cover-up, where's the evidence? >> Well, first of all, let me just say I'm not accusing him of a of a cover-up. I'm relaying allegations cuz I don't want to Get sued. Um and you do have to be careful of that with Lou, um to get sued or kind of threatened. So, let me just make that clear. I'm making allegations, but uh I wouldn't be so sure he's been so open on the topic of crash retrievals and reverse engineering. >> So, let's go back.

I want to go right back to 2017. I've always been fascinated with the allegations of Tom DeLonge from Blink 182 because, frankly, Absurd as it may sound, I think a prominent rock star has come the closest to explaining what was really going on. And he did this almost inadvertently. >> [sighs] >> There were a cluster of leaked emails between Tom DeLonge and John Podesta, then working in a senior position in the White House, prior to the Hillary Clinton-Donald Trump presidential election campaign. What did those emails reveal? >> Those emails essentially revealed a coordinated disclosure attempt

to establish Hillary Clinton as the president to bring disclosure, albeit a limited disclosure. And the real impetus for this was Lieutenant General at the time, uh Director of National Intelligence James Clapper. James Clapper gave cover for the AATIP activity. AATIP [snorts] was not a real program. AATIP was not a sub-SAP under OSAP, a special access program. AATIP was an informal working group that had no budget and was essentially only real on paper. The AATIP was a cover for several National Security Council activities. Uh if we relay the allegations of Dave Grusch on the Megan Kelly

program, the Judicial Watch program, and some others. Dave Grusch has directly stated that James Clapper was one of the kind of Central head figures for the UAP legacy program, for specifically the National Security Council's crash retrieval portfolio. So, James Clapper establishing the AATIP as a cover for several National Security Council activities, appointing Lou Elizondo as the front man for AATIP, that was a limited disclosure campaign that originated from within the legacy program onion layer of secrecy. >> was what was the motivation though? What Were they trying to do by doing a limited disclosure? Were they

trying to contain what a President Clinton, Hillary Clinton, would have revealed? >> Yes, absolutely. I think that disclosure would have seen the the disclosure and presence of an extant non-human presence on this planet, uh but relegating that presence to anomalous signatures, five observables, uh and really a huge mystery of what these sort of anomalous signatures are In our sky. There would be zero discussion of reverse engineering, zero discussion of crash retrievals, zero discussion of derivative technologies or exploited technologies. And like you mentioned, crash retrievals and Elizondo, this can be observed perfectly with the testimony of

David Grusch. In June of 2023, David Grusch testified before Congress about the UAP legacy program. He [snorts] discussed decades of crash retrievals, reverse Engineering effort efforts, misappropriation of funds to fund these programs. Prior to 2023, Lou Elizondo essentially did not discuss crash retrievals bar Roswell. Roswell, you can make an exception because essentially Roswell is a cultural zeitgeist event at the moment in the United States. >> Cuz Lou said Roswell was real. >> Yes. >> I mean, if he's part of a cover-up, if he's trying to conceal this recovery program, why did he talk about it?

>> Roswell is so far in the past, it is very easy to say that the materials, programs that once existed surrounding Roswell, uh holdings, possible biologics, breakthroughs are so long in the past that chain of custody is broken, you know, maybe the materials got sent to Wright-Patterson, and then who knows what happened if there had Been no breakthroughs from that. Uh additionally, Elizondo and others could say that other high-level sources told them about Roswell, and that's how they knew that, but once Dave Grusch spoke about the UAP legacy program, then Elizondo started speaking about crash

retrievals. And if you listen to Elizondo's testimony in 2024, he directly told Representative Nancy Mace he was and had been under a non-disclosure agreement regarding crash Retrievals. >> So, that was effectively an explicit admission that he knew about crash retrievals. >> Correct. >> Wow. I hadn't realized that before. >> [sighs and gasps] >> So, you're suggesting that David Grusch forced Lue Elizondo's hand. >> Correct. David Grusch is the type of American we Need right now spearheading disclosure. Uh he's a man who wants to go open kimono and not hold back on disclosures. Uh of course,

he would be interested in protecting national security secrets or possible methods of deriving non-human technology, but um that man wishes to see the disclosure of non-human intelligence, technical vehicles, et cetera. >> So, let me get this right. Uh bear with a very small brain trying To come to terms with what you're describing here. What we're talking about is that right back in 2015, 2016, when Tom DeLonge from Blink 182 first started talking about these meetings that he was having with the General Neil McCasland and General Michael Carey, both from the US Air Force. Those meetings

were part, you believe, of a coordinated effort by sections of the US government, military, Intelligence community to do a controlled disclosure. >> That's correct. Let's also see who else was in those meetings with Tom DeLonge. That includes Steve Justice and Rob Weiss out of Lockheed Martin Skunk Works. In one video, Tom DeLonge said he met with agency officials, so CIA officers or senior individuals at the CIA. I'll leave that up to Tom or others to discuss, but I would be very interested To see who those specific agency officials are. >> Okay, let's just sit back

for a moment. Even if that's true, >> Mhm. >> I just want to devil's advocate you on this. Let's assume the United States has recovered non-human craft, which I think they have. >> Yes, I agree. >> Let's assume they don't want right now To give the Russians or the Chinese any kind of an advantage by revealing the position of that technology. Because the worry is, and I'll give you the glib explanation I've been given, the worry is that if you reveal even the knowledge of the existence of that technology, it's a slippery slope. That some

congressman, some senator will blab to big note himself with some journalist, and the whole story will come out. And as a result of that, a Highly sensitive, probably technologically incredibly important national security program will be compromised. What do you say to that? >> I think there's valid concern there. On your fantastic, one of the best videos ever on this topic, interview with Dave Grusch, he spoke about a decades-long subrosa hidden cold war of four asymmetric harnessing of non-human technology and their technical vehicles. There is a real concern by revealing Certain capabilities that we may have

exploited or derived from these super advanced technical vehicles that we may be playing a hand for China or Russia, and playing our our hand at what we have that we don't know if they do. >> But the implications of what you're saying are that once It was all predicated on the assumption that Hillary Clinton was going to win the election. >> Mhm. >> Why did they make the decision, and that's clearly what you're inferring here, that once Donald Trump became president, it wasn't tenable to reveal in a controlled way through Donald Trump that there were

non-human intelligences engaging with this planet. >> I think partially Hillary Clinton had expressed an appetite and interest in this topic. Of course, John Podesta had a long-time Interest in this topic as well. Bill Clinton had a long-time interest in this topic as well and you know, if we talk about this later, there were some very pivotal pivotal moments the legacy program took to stay hidden in 1994 under Clinton. So, it just seemed like a you know, with with Clapper, with Podesta, with others, Hillary Clinton was the ideal choice to pass through their limited disclosure efforts.

And with what a wild card Donald Trump is, I Just think that sort of situation to push an executive branch ask disclosure partial disclosure wasn't attainable anymore. What's extremely interesting to me is that this sort of effort seemed to continue. Remarkably in the 2025 documentary The Age of Disclosure. And it seems like Luis Elizondo, some of his compatriots and Lieutenant General James Clapper kind of reared their head once again to Shape the UAP narrative, to kind of guide disclosure in a certain direction. And I'd love to talk about that too because there's there's quite a

bit of >> Well, let's go through that because I mean it it's always fascinated me that James Clapper was seen as a a transparency advocate because he's the guy who I I understand lied to Congress about whether or not there were these FISA laws being breached, the interception of Americans with listening Devices and communications monitoring. But you're suggesting James Clapper has played an perhaps is playing an integral role in what we call the legacy program, the program that is concealing allegedly knowledge of retrieved non-human craft and reverse engineering efforts. >> That's correct. As David Grusch

said and I've certainly been exposed to this and I'm sure you've been exposed to similar information that once Dick Cheney left office in 2009, The legacy program did not feature a centralized leader or and had a fractured control group. And from about 2010 to 2017, James Clapper was that individual, the mob boss if so to speak, in a severely knee-capped capacity to Dick Cheney, but the mob boss of the National Security Council led crash retrieval portfolio. >> But the implications are whoever it is that's running that legacy program now, They don't trust Donald Trump. >>

Right. >> They don't think he can keep this secret. Do they? >> No, and I think that's because Donald Trump's a wild card, and they cannot push the specific message this party or this cadre of individuals wants to push. >> So, that presents an altogether different color. If what you're saying is right, it presents an altogether Different color on on key individuals who are part of the purported UAP disclosure process. We've been told recently that we're going to see a disclosure. >> Mhm. >> It may be a small D disclosure, rather than a capital D

disclosure, but to be fair, President Trump, the Department of War, they have begun the slow declassification of UFO secrets that Have been held within the Department of War and other agencies for many years. Isn't that a positive thing? >> I wouldn't say so. Uh the Department of War, DOD is I'll call it, Department of Defense of course, and other agencies, we're missing a litany of records here. We're missing records from agency, the CIA. We're missing records from the Department of Energy and its precursor entity, the Atomic Energy Commission. We're missing records from some of our

Partially private, partially public institutions like the Mitre Corporation and so forth. Uh these records are severely lacking, and if we continue down this path of Mr. Elizondo as the czar, I I do think we're going to get a severely kneecapped disclosure. >> But I keep on coming back to that fact that if Lou Elizondo really was, as you say, responsible for an attempt to try and constrain the narrative, why do you say that his hand was forced By David Grusch coming out and talking about the reverse engineering program and the retrieval program? >> Because when

David Grusch went public and open kimono discussed the legacy program, he sort of eviscerated that partial disclosure effort of the revelations of a non-human intelligence and technical vehicles and anomalous signatures, and he forced the conversation forward into reverse engineering crash retrieval. So, For that at that point for Elizondo and others, it was adapt or die. You meet David Grusch, a very senior, very respected officer, Air Force veteran, an all-around stand-up guy that is respected by so many. He set the new standard for how the subject of UAP is discussed and how seriously it's taken and

what sort of allegations need to be investigated. >> It's quite incredible if what you're saying is true because James Clapper has Been presented as a pro-transparency advocate. He was presented in the Disclosure movie as somebody who's all about talking about what secret programs the US Air Force has been involved in and monitoring UAPs. >> So, he had three scenes in The Age of Disclosure which totaled under 1 minute total of screen time. The most important clip of which was him saying that there was a program out at Area 51 and the Nevada test site that

Monitored UAP. But that documentary in a sense almost seemed like a large amnesty plea for many of the individuals within that documentary. My biggest issue here, and this is one of the biggest gripes I have, is one of the centralized components of the documentary is discussion of the legacy program, right? First of all, there's legacy programs. It's multiple, it's not singular. But second of all, the documentary portrays The program structure as this: The CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology, DS&T, at the top. The Deputy Director of this DS&T spearheads the whole crash retrieval portfolio. Under

the DS&T on equalized playing fields according to the documentary, is the Department of Energy, Defense Industrial Base Prime Contractors, the Big Five, Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, etc., and the Air Force. My problem with that starts with this, And I have many. That portfolio of programs exists, but the program manager, the director of that program set, is the National Security Council, specifically elements within the covert actions, covert activities oversight structure of the NSC. Why was that not displayed in the documentary? It's because to protect individuals like Clapper and other National Security Council interests. >> You know

what I have trouble understanding? Obviously, the National Security Council is an executive arm of government that operates under the aegis of the current administration, under each president. >> [gasps] >> But there's a large cadre of people who kind of survive on into other presidencies. You're suggesting that the root of the power, if you like, of the legacy Program, is that high up in the administration. >> That's correct. And if you'd like, we could go all the way back to 1947 and kind of explain how that came to be and how that shifted. Awesome. So, this

is this is my wheelhouse. 1947, summer, Roswell crash, kickstarted the modern-day UAP legacy program portfolio. Before 1947, there were likely recovered UFOs. We have 1933, Magenta, Italy, that You and Dave Grusch spoke about. That seemed to be an unmanned lenticular disk, and there's also other data I've been exposed to that as far back as 1930, there have been records of retrieved UAP. >> As far back as the late 19th century, I think you said. >> Yeah. A lot of the time in maritime settings, too. So, you know, in Age of Disclosure, where's the Office of

uh Naval Intelligence? Where's the O&I? But 1947 started to kickstart this national effort. Part of the reason, in my guess, is the recovery of biologics. I think that may have been a sort of a a new thing. Magenta it an unmanned craft. Maybe this was the first retrieval that had biological entities recovered. Shortly after Roswell, we saw the creation of the National Security Act of 1947 under President Harry Truman. This created the Department of Defense, unifying the armed forces. This created The National Security Council. This created the CIA and and so on. This was kind

of the formation of the modern-day you know, military-industrial branch of the United States. >> [snorts] >> In June of 1948, Truman signed NSC 10/2. This is very important because this kind of established covert activities for the United States government, basically being conducted out of the National Security Council with with Involvement from the CIA. So, from what I understand, June of 1948, NSC 10/2 is when the group that would be referred to in the public zeitgeist as the Majestic 12 was established. >> So, let's I want to stop you there because this is getting interesting now

for me because I was long a Majestic 12 skeptic. It seemed inane to me that there'd be a group called Majestic 12. It all seemed Terribly convenient. But, I have been dragged kicking and screaming to the belief that those documents, at least the first tranche of Majestic 12 documents, are probably genuine. Are probably authentic. What's your position? >> I agree. I think there's quite a few documents that are outright hoaxes. Some likely passage material. >> Explain to our audience what's passage material. >> A passage material, if you think in um basically, if you think in

terms of medicine, you know, when doctors might inject blue dye into a vein or something or a type of dye so they can see where your veins, capillaries, and so forth go. Essentially, essentially, passage material can be injection of partially true, partially false information um to see where that spreads, including purposefully planting disinformation or partially true Information to adversaries um to confuse their intelligence or to run counterintelligence and so forth. I think an example of this is likely the special operations manual, which is a shame for me to say because I love that document. I

then find it extremely concerning that Arrow director Sean Kirkpatrick and uh deputy director Tim Phillips kind of pressed the uh Majestic 12 special operations manual to podcasters as something interesting Arrow found. Um that's pretty absurd. >> think they were deliberately trying to sow disinformation? >> I think Tim I think Mr. Phillips is a bit of a goof, and I think Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick was retroactively briefed into the legacy program to make sure he could run interference in program exposure assessment. >> But, the implications of what you're saying are that as early as I think 1947,

within months or weeks of the Roswell crash or the Roswell incident, there was a control group created. >> Yes, one of the the first document ever released would get in the hands of Stanton Friedman, and this is the Eisenhower briefing document, sometimes referred to as EBD. This document was allegedly created for program incumbent Dwight Eisenhower, and detailed the modus operandi, personnel, uh and just kind of directive of the Majestic 12 up to that point. According To this document, the Majestic 12 had been created in September of 1947. I think September 24th to be specific. At

the behest of Dr. Vannevar Bush and James Forrestal. Interestingly enough, in the actual presidential library of Truman, you can find a meeting on September 24th of President Truman with Forrestal and uh Dr. Vannevar Bush. >> My Australian friend Jeff Cruikshank's been playing a key role in matching Those diary entries with what is said in the Majestic documents, and it's it's quite fascinating because they do match. >> Mhm. It's it's it's really interesting. He's doing great work. The document also states The document lists the original Majestic 12 member list. Some individuals of note there is of

course Dr. Vannevar Bush, who I believe was one of the largest architects of the entire security apparatus for the early legacy program Effort. >> So, one of them, of course, was James Forrestal, the then Secretary of Defense. Do you think he was flown out of thrown out of a window? >> Yes, I do. What's also interesting is the the Eisenhower briefing document states that uh General Walter Bedell Smith was a replacement for Forrestal after Forrestal's untimely death. Uh there's also in the Truman Library a Meeting with General Walter Bedell Smith the same day. The Eisenhower

briefing document also states that he was brought into the Majestic 12 program. >> So, that was like the first murder, if you like. >> It could have been. I think Forrestal it's it's claimed that Forrestal grew increasingly mad and depressed and decided to throw himself out of the I think 14th story of the Bethesda Naval Hospital. But, you know, with with John F. Kennedy there may have been some other interests at play there and people trying to take out the individual. >> While we're on the subject, do you think JFK was murdered because of his

connection to the UFO subject? >> I think it's maybe partial. I just think the agency the CIA at the time had quite a few reasons to try to ice her erase or subject Mr. Kennedy to wet works operations. >> But, fundamentally, that's what fascinates me about this whole story. People talk about why are you interested in this arcane subject of UAPs? It's at the heart of post-war American democracy. >> Right. Right. Right, because you have the Manhattan Project end with the ending of World War II. You have the Atomic Energy Commission kind of taking over

responsibilities of nuclear weapons and the 1946 Atomic Energy Agreement. As Soon as World War II ends with with Roswell and the creation of the UAP legacy program, you essentially see the Manhattan Project 2.0. And it is a fascinating missing chapter of American history. >> And it's long it's been suppressed now over 80 years. That's the incredible thing about this. >> And I think David Grusch said this on Joe Rogan, but he said he he wasn't in admonishing Presidents, senior statesmen for this decision to keep Roswell and, you know, the retrieval of non-human vehicles and bodies

secret, but he understood at the time why that was done. >> Okay, I and I can too. I mean, if I was President Truman, I probably would have done the same thing. You know, you would be worried that the Soviets would get an advantage. Why have things changed now? Let's come to back to the present day For a moment. I I'm not trying to sound like an apologist for the Pentagon or whoever it is that's responsible for this cover-up, but let's give them a hearing. They're reluctant to even admit the existence of this program. Let's

be them for a moment. I'm the program legacy boss. I think it's outrageous that you're trying to challenge this national security secret to be released. You know, by even talking about non-human Intelligence, what you are doing is creating a slippery slope. You're going to make it inevitable that this whole secret is provided to our potential adversaries, the Russians or the Chinese. >> I hate to do this, but to even try and get in that mind of a senior legacy program individual cuz I don't think there's one control person or even a control group. I do

think we have to go back to 1948 and unpack some more Baggage as to why Okay, so 1947, the the start of the UAP legacy program, is a centralized effort. The golden years of the legacy program. This continues on into the early '80s. And Truman and Eisenhower specifically laid the groundwork for the UAP legacy program through a series of decisions and classified presidential executive orders, sometimes referred to by Dr. Eric Davis as PEADs, Presidential Emergency Action Documents. Some of the really important dates and kind of concepts here was, of course, NSC 10/2 in 1948. 1954,

Eisenhower creating the 5412 Committee Special Group. This is when the Majestic 12, as I understand, was really bolstered. Uh this really set the groundwork for the UAP legacy program control group existing under US covert activities oversight. And it did for quite a while and we'll kind of discuss when when that was broken up and so forth. I also Understand that during this time frame, especially the late 1940s under Truman, custody of recovered discs were given to Atomic Energy Commission National Laboratories, Sandia created in 1949, Los Alamos, Lawrence Livermore, Oak Ridge. And that these vehicles were

studied under the direction of Dr. Vannevar Bush, who started the Office of Scientific Research and Development in World War II, the Joint Research and Development Board, and then chaired the Research and Development Board RDB, which was also born out of the 1947 National Security Act. Vannevar Bush is a super centralized figure in this. He essentially laid the groundwork for how US scientists and the government work together on national security programs. But fast forward a little bit, we have Nixon's executive order 11652 in I think 1972 or 1973. This drew a lot of criticism because the

Congress kind of investigated this executive order and found that there were so many agencies within the United States government that didn't have classification authority. >> So maybe just explain what that executive order said. >> So the series of executive orders we're going to talk about are all national security related, classification related executive orders, just kind of Bolstering uh the secrecy around US black programs, special access programs. At this time, Nixon really established the framework for the modern-day special access program. >> Do you think Nixon was briefed into the program? >> Yes, I do. Because I

think once the National Security Council's 5412 Committee Special Group transitioned into the 303 Committee, I think in 1964, Which also existed under President Nixon, the control group was still in the 303 Committee at this time. >> So I've been told, and I want to hear your response to this, that under Nixon a decision was made to divest from government control of a lot of the reverse engine the the retrieved technology. That a decision was made that we had to take this out of the control of government departments as much as possible and put it into

the Hands of trusted private aerospace companies where it could be better hidden. >> This is interesting cuz I think this is a a subject where you and I might differ on. So, that this would be something really interesting to kind of explore and and and bite into. I think that that snowballing effect of divesting the program uh mainly out of the National Security Council started in 1978. Uh this was President Carter's Executive Order 12603. I might need to be fact-checked on that, but it was foreign intelligence activities in 1978. I'm blanking on the exact executive

order number. And essentially this this required National Security Council covert activities to report to an oversight body for the first time ever. So, this was a huge clampdown on type of the type Of covert operations, you know, wet works >> True. >> actions the US government doesn't want to be associated with. This was a huge clampdown on it. This culminated in 1982 to 1985 with Executive Order uh 12356, National Security Decision Memorandum 159, and the revelations of the Yellow Fruit Unacknowledged Special Access Program. The Iran-Contra in 1986 gets all the Attention for huge scandals in

the US Armed Forces at the time, but the real interesting thing is Yellow Fruit. Yellow Fruit was an Army Special Operations Division, SAOD. Uh it it was Army SAOD's support of Nicaraguan uh Contras as well as other classified operations for the US Army. This featured a staged retirement from one of the individuals there, Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, to then go form his own shell company and conduct Yellow Fruit Operations through that shell company. That caused a massive scandal within the US because that was found out through incidental standard audits. This forced the program to get creative

and to start utilizing cover offices, cover programs. One of the best examples can be seen uh under Edward C. Aldridge, who was Secretary of the Air Force and Director of the NRO. He took what were called outside activities, which were activities that existed outside of the Air Force, that the Air Force had administrative and operational control over, and stuffed them within the air the administrative assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force, the SAF/AA, bypassing the SAF/AAZ, which is the Air Force component level special access program oversight committee. Whether that's UAP or not, which it

probably is, that's an example of a cover office being used. >> But where Where does this take us in terms of addressing what I raised earlier, which is the suggestion that that the divestment into private control started under Nixon? >> Exactly. So, the program started to fracture then, scatter itself into the wind. In 1994 specifically, there was a business decision by the program leads to permanently vest control of the legacy program portfolio in a quasi-government and industry control Group of 20 27 individuals, where the Department of Defense Special Access Program Oversight Committee and Central Office,

the SAP Central Office, were used as predominant gatekeeping structures. So, I think that 1994 is the the exact time that control was permanently vested outside of the US. >> Really? So, it's only as recently as 1994. So, it's what, 30 32 years ago? >> I believe so, but remember, from 1982 onward, the program had to get creative To kind of scatter itself into the wind. So, maybe break off parts of its arms and hide them within the Aerospace Corporation, within Lockheed. >> So, let's go back to Majestic 12, the MJ-12. That was a control group

>> Mhm. >> run by government through the National Security Council, direction of the president, operated presumably under a PEAD, a presidential emergency action Directive, or whatever you call it. >> [sighs and gasps] >> Is there such a control group today? And if not, when did that idea stop? >> I think that control group of 27 still exists, but the programs are so scattered and siloed with a flat hierarchy, there's no centralized figure that can move the direction of all of the legacy programs in the US under one centralized effort, mission, or vision. I think that

The last person to do that was Dick Cheney. And I think further problems exist because in 2005 with the global war on terror, some of our favorite defense contractors like Northrop Grumman said, "Why don't we take I rad, independent research and development, and kickstart our own programs? Why are we being accountable to our government sponsor, our government handler? We have the money to do our own thing." So, Northrop and others began to kind of Play their own fiddle and do their own thing at the time. >> And this is the point that David Grusch made

in his interview with me and also in his evidence to Congress that they were using these I rad structures to set up their own private investigations. But they're still using government money. >> No, I rad is self-funded. >> Totally self-funded? >> Well, that gets to be a gray area, Doesn't it? >> I don't believe that it is totally self-funded. >> Probably not because there've been several misappropriation of funds schemes that Dave Grusch and others have talked about, including most interesting to me is haircuts across programs. You know, you might have the US Forestry Service that

gets some money shaved off. And Dave Grusch recently at the June 9 press event in Washington D.C. Spoke about No, I'm sorry, this was on his Judicial Watch interview or possibly a Fox News interview. Talked about criminal enterprises being used to fund these programs, and that's extremely concerning. >> So, when did it all change? Like when who's making these decisions? The thing I find fascinating about all of this is the audience that are watching you right now, they're often asking me, "Who's in Charge? Who's controlling this? Who's pulling the strings?" And we all have this

image that there's one person or a group of people that are actually controlling what we believe is a retrieval program for non-human alien technology >> Yeah. >> and a reverse engineering program presumably spending hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars to try and reverse engineer these technologies. If that's true and I I suspect it is, I guess how in God's name have they kept it so secret for so long? And how could it possibly be the case that well, maybe not a president, but presumably any knowledgeable National Security Council director couldn't just say "Bring

me all the files on the legacy program." Couldn't Donald Trump do that And just say, "I want all the information." >> No, absolutely not. >> every person of that 27 that you've just said are responsible for the legacy program in my office tomorrow and if not, I'm sending in the 101st Airborne." >> No, absolutely not and the secrecy of the programs and and what you just touched on with sort of a a large declassification that these subjects tie over. In 1954, we had the 1954 Atomic Energy Act. Um this introduced the subject of special nuclear

materials. This, anything that gives off slight traces of radiation, uh as well as restricted data, formally restricted data, and any other security controls that are protected by statute under the Atomic Energy Commission, now Department of Energy, is basically its own classification system, completely free from normal executive order-based Declassification system, you know, secret, top secret, and confidential clearance systems. The president doesn't have unilateral classification across across these >> This is the moment where I actually my biggest shock, my biggest ontological shock happened. The lawyer in me can't deal with this idea. You have the president who

is the commander-in-chief of the US military. He's at the apex of America's national security System. And you're telling me he has no right to know, no need to know. >> Presidents and others are considered temporary employees. There is a cadre of senior executive officials, lifers in the US government, in the defense industry, within private aerospace, or rotate in between uh that are here for 40, 50 years. And they get to be the decision-makers. An perfect example of that is Donald Kerr. He's now Passed, but he was president of EG&G. He was director of Los Alamos.

He was director of the NRO, CIA, DS&T. Uh revolving door of many culpable entities within this topic. >> So, if you were, say, President Clinton, Bill Clinton, and you asked for the UFO files, which I understand he did. >> Yes. >> They don't tell you? >> It was a different world back then, but no, they didn't tell him. And we also Have to assume that there is a centralized repository of documents saving the history of the special the special access programs housing uh UFO activities. That's assuming those records haven't been buried, destroyed, or shredded. Remember

what Dave Grusch said on Judicial Watch podcast when he talked about this Clinton event 1994. He said following Clinton's request to disclose, there was a shred shred and burn party Of several documents. So, unless you know exactly where those documents are beforehand and say, "This document is here. This document exists here. This is its file name. Don't destroy it, or you're screwed." Uh such documents can be shredded. >> [snorts] >> Okay, I have just made you, UAP Grusch, Sam, I've just made you the President of the United States. You're sitting in the Oval Office. You

have all of the powers of a president. You have the knowledge base of UAP Grusch to know where to look. Take me through it. >> Well, that's really easy. Step one, I'd hire David Grusch. >> [laughter] >> Uh But but in all seriousness, I would follow the history of National Security Council uh uh action oversight dating all the way back to the late 40s as we discussed. I would uh comb through and and try and find any classified presidential executive orders. Uh I would gosh, there's there's quite a bit of of recommendations I would make

in which to look. >> Well, I I I don't understand why why not just bring in the boss of Northrop Grumman, the boss of Lockheed Martin, Terry Phillips. Why not bring these people in and say, "I am the president of the United States. I have an executive order on my desk giving me ultimate power to find out what the hell is going on with this legacy program?" W- Why can't he just tell them to give them the information? >> Well, are they going to plead the fifth? Are they going to cite national security concerns? Are

they going to tell the President the president has no authority to do so? >> States. He has the right to waive all national security concerns. That's That's enshrined in constitutional interpretations of the Constitution. >> You would think so, but the authority and powers of this program portfolio seems to supersede any sort of presidential administration. And Eisenhower and Truman laid that groundwork. >> So, the very man who warned about the dangers of the national security complex, President Eisenhower, is the very person that created this morass in the first place. >> That's correct. I think he saw

the warning signs of what this program set could become. And it indeed became that, a completely a breakaway from oversight structure of of unlimited resources, unlimited money with hiding truly incredible secrets and Truly terrible secrets. But I think even furthermore, fast forward, there's also been really creative loopholes. The program when it still still still to this day there's a National Security Council element of the program and that James Clapper. But there have been really interesting massaging of special access programs and and covert national programs to make these programs legal but completely free of oversight. You

know, that's one of The concerns that a lot of people bring up is that the legacy program itself is completely illegal. I disagree. I think the legacy program I think they do illegal things, kill people, uh steal money, do horrible white and blue collar crimes, but I think the programs are just gray areas of legitimate national security carve out special programs. >> Well, as Dr. Eric Davis revealed, if you can create what's called a PEAD, these emergency action directives, or whatever You call them, if that's legal, the president the implications are that a president from

1952 could commit a pattern of secrecy that persists to this day that means that current presidents don't get briefed into the secret. >> Right. And let's get real specific on how this can be done, too, because you Can analyze how exactly this is done. Let's say you have a White House special access program, a White House SAP that is, you know, executed by the National Security Council. If this has to do with UFO legacy programs, this is probably a covert action program. Within National Security Council covert activity oversight, there are such things called covert action

programs. 50 US Code 3093. This is assassinations. This is, again, stuff the US doesn't Want to be traced back to. White House or special access programs at the DOD are adherent to uh 10 US Code Title 10 US Code 119. So, you have a covert action White House non or covert action special access program. If the National Security Council can make this covert action program non-covert, this waves any sort of reporting or security or carve out requirements for the program. And this can be done by making the special access program content only. >> Okay. I

get what you're telling me. It's all too bloody hard. Okay. What do we do? Pack up and go home? Or do we still get President Gorb to try and find a way through this morass? Help me through it. >> Okay. Okay. Back to where where do we look? I think what needs to be done in an overall disclosure effort is to first bring the legacy program structure back Under oversight channels. >> How do we do that? >> I think you need to treat this as a criminal investigation and find enough sources with credible tangible information

to kind of flip on their mob bosses. I think you need to flip enough mid-level guys to be able to compel individuals like Terry Phillips and other pretty evil individuals at Northrop Grumman as well and and other institutions to to kind of trade up on Their boss and you need to offer these legacy program seniors the carrot or the stick. You can work for us under a new administration or you get the stick. >> But the problem I have with that is I know because I've spoken to people who've given evidence, I won't name them

and I won't embarrass them here. I know that names Locations >> Yeah. >> specific rooms in particular buildings have been highlighted as places where you need to go because you could kill this one with one moment. Kick a door in and find a flying saucer. And what the hell is this? And why haven't you told us about it? >> Yeah, you would think so, but that would require actual action. There seems to be an inability to act at some points. I Don't know. We saw this with the Senate in 2017 to 2023. Kirsten Gillibrand and

Senator Marco Rubio tasked the SSCI to get to the bottom of this mystery. >> Yeah. Their employees got to the bottom of this mystery and were kind of hung out to dry, which is >> Do you know what's funny? There was There was a really interesting I don't know if you picked up on this, but there was a really interesting series of stories and I'm saying this in the hope That somebody's going to come forward and talk to us about it. There was a series of reports in the media and from local sheriffs right across

the Midwest of the United States in the period 19 2020-19 2021 2020 where mysterious drones were being seen across the American Midwest. Do you remember the series of stories? >> so, yeah, cuz I think there were some sightings in Colorado where I'm from. >> I know that story's being covered up Inside the Senate Select Committee for Intelligence. And what I worry about is that in their haste to be seen to be responsibly addressing issues of national security and not compromising American technology that's being developed in the black. That was a precious opportunity. >> Mhm. >>

Where for the first time the program let slip. And they missed that opportunity. How much of a problem is that the Senate the Congress they're captive of the national security state. >> I think quite a bit, you know, you have individuals like Mike Turner who's a representative representing Dayton, Ohio, which is where Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is. I think some of these guys are minions to the legacy program Structure. >> the guy that's on the public record. He's the guy who allegedly knobbled the UAP disclosure laws that were being put into the Defense Authorization Act.

>> Right, and that's why I really need to praise the work of Representative Burchett of course he has David Grusch working for him for actually starting to act on the legal interrogatives and and so forth. Hopefully, there is a full committee set up within the house that Can activate subpoena power and pursue this because there are names of people, I'll give an example here like Steve Cantrell who's the special assistant to the Deputy Under Secretary of the Air Force. That is a very senior mob boss within the program structure. Somebody should ask Lou if he

knows him. That needs to be subpoenaed or or compelled to give testimony. Steve Cantrell and ton of other individuals that have yet to be subpoenaed or or called in for Questioning. >> But are you getting the same impression that I'm getting that there's just not the political will in the Congress? I mean, I appreciate there are good people in the UAP Caucus, Eric Burlison among them, Representative Anna Paulina Luna, uh Moskowitz, um a few others, Tim Burchett, who are doing good things and rattling the cage to try and push for transparency. But I get the

impression that President Trump, albeit perhaps well-intentioned, is just pushing little crumbs across the plate right now. And those crumbs are what we're getting in terms of the Department of War file releases. But nobody's prepared to tackle the bear in the room, which is the fundamental allegation made by David Grusch that there is retrieved non-human technology and that we've been secretly reverse engineering it at a cost of billions of Dollars for the last 50-60 years. >> So it seems like at the end of his first term, Trump was briefed by a couple CIA officials. And it

seems that that briefing both disturbed him and he didn't believe all of it. So then in a second term, uh he's hesitant to touch the topic again. You've also heard him assuming that he was briefed by CIA officials. >> I I've been told that Trump's worried about getting killed for speaking out About it. >> And of course, you have Marco Rubio who's in a very high-level position now, conversely to when he was a senator between 2017 to 2023, who has a wealth of knowledge, but still a massive failure to act. >> And I mean, for

a large part of the current Trump administration, Marco Rubio's been the acting National Security Director. So presumably, he's had full control over the entire National Security Council. You're telling me that there are people inside the National Security Council who are operating covert programs that are part of this legacy program. Doesn't he have the power to mandate that those people come forward and say who they are? >> Not necessarily. Remember PIIs and covert activities oversight. Covert activities oversight within the National Security Council is like a complete Subset to the National Security Council. >> Totally screwball. So

we have a situation where even the people running the country don't have the power to ask for the information. >> That's correct. Temporary employees. >> But in the event of a nuclear war, let's talk about one of the things that JFK was most concerned about. He was concerned about the risk of uh confusion caused by UAPs. And it's Written down in strategic arms limitation treaties that there is an agreement about UFOs. Each side will consult the other. It was recognized [snorts] officially in treaty documents between the Soviets and the Americans that UFOs were an issue,

this needed to be acknowledged, and they needed to create ways of interdicting reporting those sightings so that neither side thought the other was attacking. From what you're saying to me, it's pointless for a president to try and do something about that because there are people, faceless people, who are making decisions inside the national security state that they have no right to know about this information. >> Faceless people, career senior executive officials, but brave men like Dave Grusch and others know who these people are. >> [sighs] >> I had dinner recently with a former very senior

defense department official who should know. >> Mhm. >> They said to me, they should know. If this is true, they should know. And they said to me, give me some evidence. Prove it. You know, at the moment this is all hearsay. And part of the problem, I think, is even the people who haven't been briefed in find it hard to believe that there could possibly be a secret like this kept inside a country like America where, let's be cynical about it, everything leaks. It would Snowden leaked the crown jewels of the CIA. Some guy in

an IT department somewhere in an Air Force base might see these UFO files. Surely to God they would have leaked by now. >> Right, that's what Obama said, that if there were truly aliens in US captivity, one of the guards would have taken a selfie with one of the aliens. I think that's nonsense. I think the US is very good at keeping secrets, especially when it comes to imperative national security techniques, knowledge, or procedures. And I think the UFO legacy program is the greatest example of history kept in United States history. And also, there's a

very traceable Lineage of how the program portfolio be kind of compounded or exponentially increased in secrecy in restrictive briefings. And I just think that the the program learned some hard lessons over time, like a four-star general abusing, not abusing actually, rightfully using his authority to force a read-on into the programs. That the legacy program learned from that to make sure mistakes like that never happen again. And the legacy program has essentially made Itself ironclad, but also this has leaked over time. It's leaked time and time and time again. It's leaked for decades, but people don't

take it seriously because of the stigma around the topic that has been seen in the 1953 Robertson Panel, 1969 Condon Committee, and 2022's AARO. >> It's funny, one of the documents of course that we both know about is the Admiral Wilson document, which is a record of a conversation that Dr. Eric Davis says he did have right with Admiral Tom Wilson, who was a a J2, uh deputy director of the Defense Intelligence Agency at the time. Went on to become the director, and he discovered to his horror that there was this program that he was

told about, which was concealing the legacy UAP retrieval and reverse engineering program. >> [snorts] >> Now, I'm told Admiral Tom Wilson has Either declined to participate in interviews with the Congress, >> Mhm. >> or he's denied all. I'm not quite sure which way it is, but basically he's being uncooperative. Shouldn't somebody like that be dragged kicking and screaming and told as an officer of the US military he will be cashiered and court-martialed unless he tells the Truth, the full truth, and nothing but the truth. Aren't we beyond this nonsense where somebody can say that they

can't give evidence? >> Who does he fear more though? Uh the US law or the Legacy Program? Because according to that document, he was threatened by the Legacy Program as well. >> True. >> And I reckon it's the the Legacy Program. Because like you, um I'm Assuming I I fully believe the authenticity of that meeting. Uh and especially the actions of of Thomas Wilson, [snorts] Vice Admiral Thomas Wilson, trying to access, being denied access into the program portfolio. >> What I find interesting about that document is it didn't leak from AATIP. >> No. >> It

didn't leak From Bigelow's Aerospace, which apparently had the access to that document because it'd been distributed amongst members of the management committee of the um I think the uh oversight program that Edgar Mitchell was part of, the advisory committee with Bigelow that Edgar Mitchell was part of. But it came out of Edgar Mitchell's estate. >> [sighs and gasps] >> That was a very inconvenient document, Wasn't it, when it came out? >> Absolutely. And and still to this day there's uh I I do think more focus needs to be put in that document. I think that

every single line of the Wilson-Davis notes needs to be scrutinized and analyzed. >> go through what it said. >> Sure. >> Cuz I think it's really important to remind people. What did the Wilson-Davis document reveal? >> So, according to the document, and again, I I do believe this happened. In 1997, Admiral Thomas Wilson attempted and was stonewalled into accessing the Legacy Program portfolio. The records for this program at the time were held in the then called Austat, Office of the Under Secretary for Defense for Acquisition and Technology, now known as the Under Secretary of Defense

for Acquisition and Sustainment. And these records weren't kept in sort Of the usual special access programs records group. It was found in a special subset of the carve out waved unacknowledged special access programs or SAPs. Wilson was told this by director of DOD SAPCO special access program central office General H. Marshall Ward, General Mike Kostelnik who is a permanent member on the SAP oversight committee amongst others like Deputy Secretary of Defense and to Secretary of Defense Bill Perry. Wilson found the records group for this program and attempted to use his Deputy Director of DIA authority

to get a a formal read on. >> And he had as much as incredulity as you and I would have when he asked to be briefed because after all he's the guy briefing the Chiefs of Staff. >> Yeah. >> You would think he had the right to know. >> Right, but immediately he was met with sort of the special access program oversight committee's senior review group SRG which swarmed like antibodies. And he was confronted with what's called in the document the watch committee which was an extremely small group of individuals who were kind of the

security managers for the program who informally told him what the program was doing. It studied recovered craft and was attempting to reverse engineering Them but did not give him a formal read on. >> So the document makes it very clear when you talk about craft you're talking about alien craft. >> Yes, because in the document Wilson even tries to argue are UFOs a cover for US airspace platforms and the watch committee said no. This was stuff recovered in the desert of non-human origin. >> And the thing that fascinates me is in That document Tom Wilson

describes flying out to see these people. So presumably there would be a requisition for an aircraft for the J-2 to have flown out there to go and do this. Do we know if anybody's made that inquiry or that investigation? >> I think that's a valiant pursuit just like individuals like James Fox have been doing with the 1997 Virginia case to find aircraft logs. I think that's a Great great, great person. >> the person running the um the the special access program database, presumably that's an individual. Possibly they're still alive. >> Kind of. So, so there's

a hierarchical structure for the special access program world. Uh we don't we don't have to get into this because it's very academic and probably boring for people, but uh there's SAPCO central offices at a a component level Which has purview over all their SAPs. Each component of the armed forces, DARPA, Missile Defense Agency has their own component level SAPCO. There's US D-SAPCO. >> The most important thing is there are people who were running and administering this program that handled the most sensitive secrets of all in the US military. >> Yeah, many of which at the

apex of the oversight uh committee for SAPs have Been implicated in UFO legacy programs such as Paul Kaminski who's also a >> in my imaginary world where President Gerb is sitting in the Oval Office and dictating, "We want answers." I would be summoning those people to a special committee of inquiry that I've created using one of my presidential emergency action directives and I would saying, "You will now testify to the truth and tell me exactly what you know about this legacy program." I mean, Couldn't the president do that? >> Yeah, if the president harnesses unitary

executive theory to basically give themselves uh unilateral declassification authority and and access to atomic energy secrets and and access to whatever they want. I would hope that happens. >> This is the fundamental problem here and this is what I'm driving to, which is at the heart of the UAP legacy program, if it's real, And I think it is, is a cancer at the very heart of American democracy. >> And what protects it is an onion, layers and layers and layers and layers of secrecy. Former uh chief scientist for special projects at the Navy, John Pena

Craven, uh said this best in his memoirs. I think it's called the the silent war if I'm remembering correctly, where he talked about the seventh veil analogy, Where even cleared personnel in highly sensitive national programs never knew if the program they were working on was a cover program for another cover program for another cover program. You never knew what the apex of secrecy was even for highly cleared individuals and it's the same sort of secrecy apparatus for this program but infinitely more compounded. >> So how do we crack this? I mean, I think from what

you're telling Me there's absolutely no prospect that we're ever going to crack this nut. >> As long as David Grusch is in the fight, I do think we're we have a chance. And we need to see Dave Grusch in an empowered role in the executive branch with authority to go places, deputized to access facilities, to subpoena witnesses, his own provisions, his own appropriations. Uh we need David Grusch in the driver's seat. I think he's the only man equipped to handle this right Now and the only man with the institutional knowledge of the history of the

legacy programs to be able to spearhead this. You can't just have somebody who's going to attack the programs right now. You need to know how the programs have fractured, changed, evolved, where they've been housed, where the records may have been destroyed, where in some cases records are literally buried. You need a guy like David Grusch who knows this stuff. >> There's an allegation that I noticed Jesse Michaels ran on his recent American Alchemy um summary of all of these incredible allegations. I thought it was fantastic. It was great. And he [music] did an analysis in

which he mentioned an allegation that I was quite shocked to hear being made publicly. But seeing [music] Jesse made it, I'm going to make it here. I know it's true that civilian aircraft have been Inadvertently [music] brought down by electromagnetic pulse weapons. >> An aircraft flies into a temporary flight restrictive zone, uh TFR, and uh is haphazardly [music] hit and individuals are killed. I have been exposed to to that information as well.