Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day what's up Luke how are you hey sir I'm doing better than I deserve yeah well that's a good statement you know there's an old uh old military saying any any day above grounds a good day there you go um so tell everybody what your official job was wow um I had a lot of official jobs government in regards To you know you know you know you know those things sure one of these things that's a allegedly

uh that's a replica of um the one that Bob Lazar worked on the sport model I uh I've heard that before yeah designs by Perry uh the E with in Perry is a a three and he's a dude on Instagram and sent me that very cool pretty dope right yeah we have another one that looks just like it at the Mothership at the comedy club when you Walk in you walk right through like a a giant suspended UFO very cool so obviously I have issues well you know you know what this is a neat Town

um I I I was strolling the streets yesterday and um I came across the uh the Texas Toy Museum now I'm not one for museums usually but something I saw was a automatically transported me back to when I was a kid I'm an old guy so I grew up 70s and early 80s how old are you 52 I'm 57 you are yeah man well I Look 10 years older than you I had a lot of lot of long hard miles on me unfortunately I do too believe it or not well you'll have to share with

me your secret um because unfortunately I tell people this is as good as it get I'm about as attractive as a cement truck you know so um so uh I I after the Army um I went into the federal service and had a lot of jobs mostly in Counter Intelligence and which is looking basically what the guys know about us From an intelligence perspective and in 2008 I changed my job one of my jobs I was working at the Director of National Intelligence which for most people may or may not know it's um kind of

outside of DC and where I lived I was on the other side of DC living on a little island in the Chesapeake Bay and so my my commute was terrible I mean it really really frankly sucks have to take a ferry every day no uh but it was about a three-hour commute each way because you Have to go right past langly yeah it's why didn't you move closer well you know I wanted to I wanted to give my kids a really good quality of life and I did not want to work in the city and

then kind of expose them to kind of the craziness if that makes sense especially DC DC is crazy especially with kids right so any kind of nuts that they don't clean up the capital of the [ __ ] country it seems like you know brother it's kind of indicative of the Rot the whole country is involved such a disgrace because you bring these foreign dignitaries and the first thing they see is is just the the dereliction of it and it's a very poor reflection on really what the American Spirit is about but you know that's

that's for another conversation gu yeah it seems like they could fix that yep especially in that place yeah one would hope right um yeah I mean Jesus Christ it's the nation's capital Yeah um so uh I was offered a job to go back to the Pentagon in 2008 for a little while and basically run the the integration between National level intelligence information and local and state and Tribal Law Enforcement so after 9/11 the country realized that we had a significant problem getting National level information down to to the cops on the ground that could actually

do something about it why because he didn't have security Clearances so they couldn't they weren't allowed to be provided that information so one of my jobs was to try to help fix that and shortly thereafter uh I got there in 2008 uh it was probably early 2009 is when I was approached by two individuals who came to me and they said look um we'd like to consider you for for for a program that we're we're part of um it's a very nuanced program very secretive program now when you're into government you hear that all the

time It's not you know people look at they they oh you have a secret clearance or a top secret clearance millions of people have have some sort of security clearance in the government and a lot a lot of people have a top secret clearance so it's really not that uncommon it's really not that sexy it just so you didn't really know what you getting involved in I didn't at all not at all in fact um so yeah great question so no I didn't know what I was getting Involved in and after several conversations it occurred

to me that their interest in me was some of my background I had in my early career as a special agent in Counter Intelligence I was protecting Technologies critical Technologies critical avionic Technologies um for example and some Aerospace technology so think of first stage solid rocket motor booster technology um tomaha cruise missiles Stuff like that Apache Longbow so Advanced avionics was something I was kind of already formal kind of famili with and at the same time um I had the Counter Intelligence background so I was asked to come in and run The Counter Intelligence and

security aspect for a particular program at which time I had no idea what the program even was so what does Counter Intelligence and security mean it just simply means making sure that our adversaries like Russia and China can't penetrate our our organization and steal our secrets that's all that is it's kind of a fancy word for just saying security information security and operational security so uh I remember I had a a meeting they brought me to go see their director and uh it was in a uh in I would tell you the location but I

was told by the Pentagon not to say the specific location of this office but it was somewhere in the DC area uh it was a Facility that wasn't known publicly to be a uh an intelligence to have an intelligence office in there so I can't say the the the specific location um but I went there and I went up to the to the top floor uh I think it was the top floor almost the top floor and I met for the first time a gentleman named James latky Dr James latsky PhD and this guy was

the epitome of a rocket scientist um and when I say the epitome I mean he was probably and there's no exaggeration the Number one rocket scientist in the US government now he's a humble guy so I'll probably tell you he wasn't but he he really was he's an amazing human being and very smart um and after a very brief conversation he looked at me and he said um I want to ask you a question said okay sir and he said what do you think about UFOs and I said uh well I answered truthfully I said

I don't and he said well what do you mean you don't believe In him and I said no that that's not what I said you asked me if I think you know what do I think about UFOs and frankly I don't think about UFOs um I really don't have the luxury to think about them I'm too busy you know working intelligence operations and whatnot and I remember him looking over his glass say and um very seriously staring me straight in the eye and says well um don't let your personal bias get the best of you

because what you may Learn may surprise you and May challenge any preconceived notion of what you think something is or is not and so let me backtrack for a minute I've never been a UFO guy you know people come up like oh you're that UFO guy I'm really not I I was never really into science fiction as a kid um I wasn't into the Star Trek or the Star Wars like like a lot of people were um so that was not my disposition you know I I grew up I guess playing GI Joe and stuff

like that so um That wasn't that wasn't my background and certainly in college um I I studied uh microbiology and Immunology with a focus on parasitology not parasytes parasitology so the scientific method has always been something that has been near and dear to me and then of course later on as a as a special agent um you know that when you're when you're conducting investigations for me I was always very fact- driven um kind of the old gum Sho If you will just the fact m' sort of guy so I was never really prone to

any type of if you will uh Affinity towards science fiction or even the UFO topic I just I just never really considered it so he says this to you and then how so we're talking about like what 16 years ago uh 15 16 years ago yeah do the math right so it's uh 2024 200 early 2009 so this is the beginning of your journey towards this sort of bizarre subject of whatever these things are Yeah so you don't have any real previous interest he says this to you and and then what's the steps after that

like how do you get introduced to this idea that these things are alien crafts yeah so um great question so for some people uh there's there's kind of two ways people process this information at least in my experience and there may be others this is just been my my observation some people have this kind of revelatory moment this Epiphany where it's this aha moment where oh my gosh this is real right for other people it's kind of more of a slow gradual realization and I think for me I was probably in the second category more

of a slow gradual realization that this isn't you know cover for something else this is really about about UFOs about so how do you first get introduced to these things well it so it wasn't I didn't get introduced to these things it was first of all I was introduced to the reporting Right so there was these these official reports that we were getting from the field there's official videos and and whatnot um that describe Vehicles doing things maneuvering in ways that frankly outperform anything we have in our inventory now keep in mind my background was

at some point in Aerospace so I I knew all the capabilities of an F-16 or for example a an F22 or the F35 um and at the end of the day as advanced as they are they they're still conventional Aircraft you know they still have the old um there's a there's a an adage they use for jet engines uh it it makes may seem a little uh awkward here but uh it's uh suck squeeze bang and blow uh that's what a jet engine does forgive me that's what it does you know so uh it's a

convention conventional type engine of course you have a propeller too that can can displace air and whatnot these vehicles were different these vehicles for the most part didn't have any type Of associated characteristic that you or I or any normal person would associate with with a plane with an airplane aircraft right that but and yet it's flying so how does an airplane work well let's say this cigar for example is is an airplane uh and there's four fundamental forces and so you have thrust lift drag and weight and if you understand those you can create

you can build wings and you create lift and you can fly then you have to have an engine For that thrust and whatnot the things that our our military Pilots were encountering um didn't have that they didn't have wings they didn't have Rudders and ailerons and control surfaces they didn't have cockpits they they didn't have engin no obvious signs of propulsion they were they were doing things and maneuvering in ways that frankly defied anything that that we had in our inventory and we were pretty certain the enemies didn't have either Our adversary didn't have these

Technologies either and even more perplexing is that they were being encountered over controlled us airspace and over sensitive military installations so you know from from that perspective you've got a real you've got a real National Security concern on your hands so you said video MH what was the do you remember the first thing that you saw um boy there's so many you know I think part of the the challenge is that Most people here in this country they're familiar with the three videos right uh that have been famously released by The Pentagon go fast go

fast gimbal Fleer correct but those are those are the least compelling of all the videos that the government has those were unclassified and so those were the ones those were kind of the low hanging fruit that could be released to the general public there's stuff out there that's like 4K ultra high definition right so When you see something like that from a a certain military platform or a certain military Equity or an intelligence collection platform um you have to look at that and say well what what is that what the hell is that more importantly

that data is being backed up by radar data right so you've got you've got Electro Optical data like gun camera footage or pod or fle Fleer video and then you've got radar data that's that's that is actually confirming what the Video is picking up and then you've got eyewitnesses that are also watching it right so you've got trained trained observers Pilots that that can recognize the silhouette between an Su 22 and a MIG 25 from 20 mil away and make a split-second decision is it friend or fro do I kill it or is it do

I let it live and they're reporting it so you have now you know three separate if you will collection platforms that the human eye Being one of them you've got gun camera footage and you've got radar footage all describing the same event at the same place at the same time under the same circumstances right and so keep in mind with my background as a former special agent in Counter Intelligence if this was in front of a jury you know I as I've said before I think we're well beyond reasonable doubt that's that is something there

I mean that is real that's not an atmospheric aberration It's not a you know anomaly that is that is something there it's tangible so was there an aha moment for you like the first thing that you saw that you looked at and you go what the [ __ ] no like I said for me it was more slow and gradual um I didn't what was the first thing that you saw that made you realize that there's something going on here that defies conventional wisdom or conventional understanding of propulsion systems um I think for me one

Of the most compelling moments was when I attended boy let me go back in memory banks I attended a dinner uh with some individuals who were already associated with the the larger umbrella program called assap um and I attended dinner at a Washington DC hotel and a Brazilian General attended uh this this dinner and the dinner was um sponsored by a gentleman named Robert Bigalow uh the famous billionaire Hotel yeah I've met Him on the podcast yeah and and by the way he's he's an American hero he's a patriot uh he funed a lot he

is brilliant and he's and people don't realize that he funded self-funded a lot of this stuff on behalf of the US government for by himself like he he paid it to do it himself um he he really is a you know an American Patriot in my opinion but anyways he um flew in this guy named General uchoa General Ucho was a Brazilian General uh very very senior In Brazilian government who led an investigation uh about a um an event that occurred over several days is this the Virginia incident no it's actually called Garis another in

Brazil yeah and the colaris incident and uh they had overwhelming number of ey Witnesses and there was even some some video and photographs that they had produced internally there to Brazil uh and um it was overwhelming the evidence and for me that was it was more listening to him And explain the concern they had and some of the interactions the their the Brazilian government officials had with these UAP that really I I left there that that dinner scratching my head and really at that point beginning to absorb the profoundness that we're we're dealing with something

that like is real this is not a cover plan for some other technology we're trying to protect did he show you this video evidence so he was it was I was sitting at the kind of Like a table like this there was a whole lot of people at the table he was sitting at the head I was kind of weighed down over here and he brought a a manila envelope and he was showing photographs to everybody right and and some reporting as well I think he brought if I recall correctly his daughter to translate um

because I don't think English was his his you know very good it wasn't his language um but for me that was and I think for one of my Colleagues too which I probably can't say his name right now because he hasn't come out publicly yet but um we both left that dinner I think scratching our heads and saying wow this is so this is legit this is real the US government is interested in this and there is interest by our government um as after that dinner um attending more meetings and beginning to read the reports

the field reports and and speaking to the scientists it became Evident to me that this was a very serious issue we had near misses uh over some of our our our areas of operation in some cases literally these these UAP splitting a a combat formation now if you know how planes fly they fly very close in the combat situation um these things were splitting the formation right um that that there were reports being being provided through the air force mostly through the Navy uh about air safety issues where where Pilots Literally could could run into

these things right they were they're they're pervasive it wasn't like a onesie and Tuesday was there ever an incident where a pilot or a jet did run into something not that I'm aware of what I can tell you that there has been incidents where there's appears to be some sort of provocation where uh one of these things seems to be coming deliberately close to an aircraft not necessarily trying to hit it but maybe trying to demonstrate Performance capabilities there was one video in particular um I haven't been cleared by the Pentagon so let me see

if I can speak about it in gen general terms um there's a pilot flying and a a a you can hear on the radio this chatter back and forth do you see it you have eyes down on it pilot nope negative no eyes down uh okay you should have on radar yeah I got something on radar but no eyes I can't see see it and then all of a Sudden um a a a craft an object goes whizzing right by the cockpit and I mean probably like 15t away uh and um you can hear the

pilot the expletives of the pilot you know I won't see it here on air but you can imagine right uh what what a pilot would say when they're very very surprised um that was one there's there's can you describe what he saw I think I can I want to be careful that I don't because again I haven't had a what I what I have appr to talk about I've I've spoken about um let me preface by saying I still have my security clearance and on occasion I still will consult for the US government and so

I want to be very mindful I I have no problem going up all the way to the line right understood but if I put up you know a pinky toe over that line they're they're going to get me um but it was a wedge shaped craft wedge shaped wedg shaped um like triangular but um um yeah like a wedge like uh I don't know how to Describe it draw it for you if you want um draw it sure you can yeah give me a sec so just like a wedge that you would like split wood

with like that kind of a wedge um yeah but it was it was silver metallic and uh like a like a diamond maybe that's a better way to describe it like a diamond almost um and it looked kind of like it look look kind of like that really it's just a just a little and that that kind of shape is something that's been reported multiple times um So that was the first time I ever saw something like that to me it was keep in mind I I never followed this topic so every time I'm seeing

one of these videos I'm kind of seeing something for the very first time so lenticular whether it's a disc shaped craft or it's it's a wedge shaped craft or a diamond shaped craft or triangle shaped craft boomerang in some cases um these were all new to me so it was very very perplexing and and obviously to our Military Pilots it was very concerning and I think when you when you look at some of the gold standard cases we had like the nits for example that that that case um you know you you have this overwhelming

number of sensors looking at the same thing going on that the pilots are reporting and for for me that was most compelling like I said more than I witness testimony is important but at the end of the day you know Grandma seeing some lights in her Backyard doesn't really do it for me you know i' I'm I'm a fact oriented kind of guy I've I've got to see the data let the data provide us the information we need so then we can make a conclusion right I'm not you know if you start seeing UFOs in

the sky everywhere well chances are they're probably not you know there's a quad copter it's a balloon it's an aircraft it could be all sorts of things um that's why I think from our Perspective having the the fundamental categories the observables we call them was so important because they are so beyond what what a normal aircraft to traditional conventional aircraft can do at that point you realize you're you're dealing with some some sort of Beyond Next Generation technology and that's when it gets compelling for for guys like me right when you're when you're seeing when

you're seeing performance capabilities that far exceed far surpass Anything we have and I'm talking even the very very best technology we have we don't come close to that and no visible means of propulsion no or obvious signs of lift right and not even a cockpit I just you have to scratch your head and say what's going on interestingly sh so no windows no windows well in some cases no windows other cases people will report what they think are windows they say I saw windows but at the end of the day you know we're we're we're

looking That in terms of what we think a window is right so you see a car you see Windows oh or a plane those are windows I didn't see any information to suggest that there were actually Windows even though an eyewitness might describe a window because we are describing in something of of something that we recognize right and so we say oh that might be a window or what not but it might not be a window and so I I want to very careful to to say there were no Windows there could have been but

the ones that I was privy to that I saw I didn't see any obvious signs of like a windshield or a window I didn't see anything like that um I saw vehicles that were doing things that were were just left you scratching your head and and they were real like I said because you're you're you're backing it up with all this other sensor data and some of the best sophisticated sensor data by the way at the time on the planet that We had right like the Spy 1 radar and the E2 Hawkeye and and some

of the other radar capabilities and Technical capabilities that other intelligence agencies have that I can't discuss here you know that this this is the stuff that that helps us put forgive the analogy here but Warheads on foreheads we when we're going to take a strike against a terrorist these are the same sensor systems we use to to to to prosecute that war that that that act Um both in combat and not in combat so yeah that's um that for me was was was very compelling and it's lots and lots of videos people think that there's

only three videos there there's those are those those don't even scratch the surface there're are hundreds and hundreds of videos that that the intelligence community and the Department of Defense have on on these things has there ever been any discussion about releasing any of These I don't want to speak on behalf of the government I I colleagues of mine like Chris melon who have been very very very active in this topic have actually been responsible for a lot of what we see now happening in Congress um has been championing that he is the one who

says look we need more videos to come out so the American people can see for themselves what we've been dealing with when I had Chris melon in the Pentagon He saw those videos and up to that point he you know he had been when he was a senior person at the Pentagon like very senior one of his jobs as the senior intelligence official he asked hey do we have any UAP UFO videos investigations anything like that and they told him no so when he came to the Pentagon and saw what we actually did have you

can imagine someone like Chris melon right he wasn't very happy um he was he was actually pretty pretty disappointed Saying why why was I told no I can I can see these videos clearly I see the reports there clearly this is something that we're interested in as a Department of Defense And yet when I was one of the senior guys he got the Heisman right he was he was being being told no and so that's that was I think a point for him that really that's probably the SP and I don't want to speak for

my friend Chris but I I I suspect that was probably the spark that got him to the point where he Said okay we have to do something about this this is this is this is BS yeah when I was talking to him it seemed like that was his perspective that this was something that really should be in at least in some way shape or form released to the general public just to solidify the conversation just to let people know like these are real this is a real thing these are not have you seen the one

that the people were filming uh just a couple of days ago in Palmdale California yeah I think they said those were drones though if I'm not mistaken I think the jury came out if I'm not mistaken I could be wrong that it was a uh it was somebody using drones with some LED lights which by the way you do wild things with drones now you seen the on create images in the sky 100% dragons and stuff with drones absolutely so you know we have to be careful as our own technology begins to advance there's going

to be pranksters out there you Know and that's one of the things that for me in in in ATP I always went into an investigation or a case assuming that it was man-made right and until I saw the compelling data that said otherwise we were always going to assume or presume that this was something that was conventional it was probably misidentified but it wasn't it wasn't exotic um and then once the data suggests otherwise then you kind of go into that that that other mode of okay Now what what are we dealing with again especially

on the backdrop of the five performance observables that's when you start to say okay yeah this is this is not a this is not an F-16 you know this is not a this is not a Chinese aircraft this is this is something different right what is the oldest video footage or film footage that you have ever seen or heard civilian or military doesn't matter like what is the oldest where you it's like Okay what the [ __ ] is this what's the oldest stuff that's compelling the point is what I'm trying to get at is

a lot of people uh point to the possibility that there's some sort of a secret program some sort of secret propulsion gravity based whatever it is that's completely different than conventional propulsion systems that the US government has and that they're operating these drones and the problem with that is always the like the Kenneth Arnold sightings the the Roswell the sightings from a time where that technology just wasn't available at all Joe I'm so glad you asked me that question it just so happens I brought you something oh uh glasses come out you know it's getting

serious no just means it means I'm old um me too yeah um I'm going to provide you a document here um it's a it's a short document but uh the portions I think are highlighted that you're going to want to pay attention To and uh let's see here okay so if uh this is just for you and if your audience is interested um it's this paragraph here you're going to want to read and then it's the last one that's highlighted and then take a look at the date in the subject line This is it right

here Jamie brought it up here oh great yeah so which one I paragraph six right now so if you want to scroll down to paragraph six go uh this summary of observations of aerial phenomenon has Been prepared for the purpose of re-emphasizing and reiterating the fact that the phenomena have continuously occurred in the New Mexico Skies during the past 18 months and are continuing to occur and secondly that these phenomena are occurring in the vicinity of sensitive military and government installations and if you want to go back to like paragraph two there you go the

highlighted part yeah The Observers of The Observers of those phenomenon Include scientists Special Agents of the office of special investigations the US Air Force airline pilots military Pilots Los Alamo security inspectors military personnel and many other persons of various occupations whose reliability is not questioned and now scroll to the top of the very top of that document and that was it says that it was determined above that the summary of observations of aerial phenomenon in the New Mexico area December 1948 to May 1950 and the Date of that document if you scroll a little bit

higher you are going to see the date of that memo 19 1950 yes sir May 25th 1950 it says that the it was determined that the frequency of unexplained eror phenomena in the New Mexico area was such that an organized plan of rep reporting these observations should be undertaken right so this is the beginning of Project Blue Book so this is the the recognition that we have a serious problem over our Sensitive military installations this is nothing new this is not 1970s reverse engineered technology or some sort of special technology 1950 they're talking about this

we had just broken the sound barrier and we had not yet entered into space and we have these things that are performing in ways that frankly we can't replicate i' I brought a few more of these later on to emphasize that point you just brought up at some point if you're interested yeah U but it Highlights that these are official government documents uh Through official government Personnel uh raising the alarm Bells just like we did in in in ASAP and atps and so this is nothing new now let's if you want to look at this

from an adversarial perspective let's our government has already said that's not ours right if you look at a 1950 saber jet for example um it wasn't even Supersonic and yet these things that we are observing in some Cases are doing I brought some more documents here multiples of of mock um at at at and doing velocities and doing things that we frankly could not do back then and frankly we still can't do in some cases but temporally speaking the only two countries in the world may may have a chance of doing something like that would

be Russia and China and now in 1950 where was China was in the middle of a famine at the time and where was Russia Russia was uh trying to Develop the atomic bomb and still was using H drawn carts uh for a lot of their military operations So temporally speaking it doesn't make sense this is this is the analogy I've used before Joe that it would be like uh sort of the Carter going into King Tutt tomb for the very first time in the 1920s discovering King tutt's tomb and when he goes in he finds

a fully assembled 747 jet it it doesn't make sense temporally speaking they did not have that technology so is It possible and I'll be very careful what I say that the US government has some sort of exotic technology well my answer is I sure hope so because uh you know we want to have an advantage over our adversaries but in 1950 that wasn't the case right and do they have any film of these crafts from New Mexico there is film of many craft and not just New Mexico per se but over many military installation here

I got another one for you I'll provide you um You don't want have to waste your time reading it but the uh I think you'll appreciate this um take a look at the date of this and who it's to and who it's from and I think you'll find the subject line very interesting okay which one um what part of my reading here just to highlight a portion so you can see the top of the document who it's from who it's to in the date and what the subject line is uh director of Special investigate what

does it say it's it's hard because it's all scratchy yeah it's an old reprod uction of official government document bottom line it's a it's a document uh from J edar Hoover oh I see from the director of the FBI Department of the Air Force the Pentagon yeah Jed Kover director of Federal Bureau of Investigations and the subject read the subject line of that memo flying it's God it's God it's hard To read because it's all screwy flying discs I should say flying discs over the Savannah it's a there's a sensitive facility that we had where

we were doing uh Atomic uh development and yeah flying disc reportedly seen the vicinity of the something River plant Savannah River plant yes sir okay that's correct and so that's atomic energy yeah and the date of that being you know 1952 right so so so this is an this is verified this is that was released by The government that is a those are all official all these are official US Government documentation that anybody can pull up anytime they want did they let you see any of these ancient films these films from the 1950s of these

things so great question our Focus was really more modern time it was more like taking a picture of where we are now I mean but wouldn't you want to just like if you if you really think this thing is from somewhere else the Best example of it definitely not being ours is something from the 1950s right sure and anecdotally that that's that's great but keep in mind on the backdrop of National Security when you go to a general and clean this up the way crazy it's like half the things are blotted out and Scratchy um

yeah that's Uncle Sam for you um you know it when you go to a general or you know it makes me suspicious no you can find it I know I know I know but it's just like yeah the Government released that I mean they they they admit [ __ ] shitty old 1920 fact machine look at that remember they were using typewriters back then too right and they ink smears yeah blotchy uh and I'm sure the original is probably much much cleaner um but that's what the government put out online for people to review um

so when you're going back to to your qu answer your question when you are going to a general or you're going to a military leader about this topic if You go back to anecdotal stuff like oh this is something from 1950s they're not interested they're like look what is going on now what is what is the threat now I've got a carrier strike group out in the water I'm getting reports these things are are are coming in and interrogating the ship you know what I want to see that I want to see the videos I

want to see the reporting I want to see the what the the deck logs and what the Commander says and I want To know the pilots I want to talk to the pilots the radar operators right that's their focus they're not interested by the way we've tried a few times and the further back in time we go the less interested they were so it was really current yeah it was really the current information what's going on now I'm not interested in what happened they're just taking a pragmatic approach yeah yeah and it's you know it's

understandable from a military perspective a national Security perspective the other stuff is interesting and from the general Public's perspective you know they're they're interested but from a national security perspective they're like hey man that was three decades ago you know I need I need now so it's it is understandable a little frustrating because you want to you want to demonstrate look boss this is this is nothing new right this is this is a repeated pattern that we're seeing here Um but they're more interested in the here and now so do they have repeated footage because

you're saying three decades but obviously we're talking about 1950 do they have stuff from the 1980s stuff from the 1990s there was reporting yeah and again I got to be careful because some of that stuff I haven't been cleared to talk about but there there are report reports uh we call foreign intelligence fi foreign intelligence reports I can't say where Or who or anything like that but on classified systems where we know without a shadow of a doubt uaps were encountered in other countries adversarial countries why because we spy on them and we know um

again I can't say how we know and and whatnot get in trouble but just so we know this is not a a United States phenomenon precisely it is not a us only phenomen phen on and in fact in other countries whether it's in Latin America South America or in Europe or Russia and China there is an extreme interest in this topic in fact that Chinese it was in the newspaper I think it was the China Morning Sun they have something called the five continents initiative where allegedly they were trying to broker a deal with the

United Nations that would allow China to run all the UFO investigations for the United Nations right so we also know that Russia they've come out and said yeah we're interested in this topic There were some released old KGB footage that showed Mig interactions with these UAP and there's also in Latin America you have the same thing if you go to Latin America now they don't have the same level of stigma and taboo associated with this topic like we do and so they talk freely about it they they have no problem talking in fact when I

was in in the Patagonia area of Argentina uh there is a near town called B and Las lahas one of the chief of Police was telling me they have there's an area there called called La Miranda La Miranda means to see to view and they call it that the town and because UAP are so frequent there that local law enforcement actually built an observatory an observation post to look at these things because they were so frequent so this is not a new phenomenon this is something that's been around for quite a long time the problem

is in my opinion and I could be wrong but this is My assessment the reason why it's so difficult to have the conversation here is because our government had placed so much EMP empasis and interest trying to stigmatize this topic that it almost worked too well now we're at the point where we should be having this conversation and people still don't want to because they think it's crazy you think of tinfoil hats and you Elvis on the mothership when in reality we're talking about a real national security Issue I mean these things are here you

you have Joe you have a former Director of National Intelligence Ratcliffe a former director of CIA Brandon you have former presidents all coming out and saying yeah there's something to it it's real right now what it is where it's from and all that stuff I'm not sure we're quite ready to go there yet but the acknowledgement is hey man yeah this is real it's not ours and we probably should do something about it so if we go Back to the history of the debunking of it you know like the Project Blue Book stuff Jay Allen

hinck after he had left Project Blue Book he became a proponent of UFO disclosure during Project Blue Book he it was his job to essentially dismiss everything and to come up with some sort of a reason swamp gas Mass hallucinations whatever it was to attribute all these sightings to something that was very easy to explain did they ever is there any documentation Or any discussion of why they did that why they chose to debunk everything yeah my my understanding is you have to look at where America was at the time they were doing these investigations

it was at the height of the Cold War right and you know despite what some people think it the Cold War wasn't very cold at all it was pretty hot and we had Russia and the United States engaging in these proxy wars neither side wanted to let the other side know what we had and what We didn't know right so if you have these UAP coming in and out the last thing you want to do is tell the other side broadcast this is what we've learned from it and more importantly this is what we don't

know about it right and so both sides were keeping this very quiet but there was an interesting agreement at the classified level uh believe in the late 60s where there was this relationship with the United States we were putting up our Northern Tier radar system to detect uh then Soviet Union icbms and they were doing the same thing right because none of us really trusted each other but we trusted each other enough to say look before you hit that button if you see something coming over the horizon before you hit that button and launch give

us a call because it might be a UFO right and we don't want to start World War III because either side mistakes a UFO for for an ICBM and that's how serious they Took the topic I mean that's real that's that's a real memo that that that existed between the United States and Russia so that's that is an indicator how much both sides took this topic seriously Jesus and so when Philip Corso was dismissing all these different things did they have anything any film footage any any stuff from that time from Project Blue Book that

was like definitively not ours I'm not privy well I'm I'm aware of The fact that people say it does exist and people have been briefed on it I wasn't privy to that I was again more focused on the here and now I was aware of people who had attended certain meetings very senior level meetings where that was discussed where they saw certain footage but that's I'm hearing that secondhand I I did not see the old footage my my focus was more on the on the current what's going on now but back to your point why

was this effort to try To create so much stigma and taboo I think it was because of that I think because you had Russia and us had this weird stalemate where neither one wanted to tell the other side what we know and what we didn't know about UAP and and the Really the I think the focus from a national security perspective let's say you're a general and I'm a general look we've got a real cold war going on here right now as long as these things aren't coming in and zapping my people that's Going to

be my focus right now that's that's a real Potential Threat that I have to deal with now I've got Russia pointing nukes at me and I'm pointing nukes at them at any time we could launch let's focus on that more so than the other stuff and that was that is that has been my observation on why they didn't want to address the the the the problem the challenge openly with the general public back and they also were worried there was a there was several Studies that suggested that most people would be very uncomfortable with that

idea that there's something else in the cosmos potentially or even right here on Earth and that it would create some sort of societal disruption right they didn't want to cause Panic they were afraid that people would kind of like think of a run on Wall Street right when people get panicked they do kind of strange things sometimes and I think the government was very worried about that What's the most compelling modern thing that you've seen oh my God I can't talk about it unfortunately that's what's that's this is my frustration Joe because I know what

I've seen I know what my colleagues have seen right and to this day there's there's video that's coming in on a regular routine basis that is very very compelling and if if how do they hide this stuff from the general public well we have classified systems we hide a lot but how is it how Is it getting filmed is any of it getting filmed by the general public or is all this military stuff so let me backtrack a little bit this there is there there's a general public that is filming stuff but from a Department

of Defense perspective our Focus Now Arrow is a different story but when I was in the government we had to be very very careful of something we called intelligence oversight back in the 60s and 70s the us intelligence apparatus Particularly in the Department of Defense was kind of naughty they were doing things they shouldn't do they were spying on students and they were spying on American citizens and doing things yeah Say It Isn't So um so Congress passed some laws and said okay you you can no longer do this kind of stuff on on on

on American citizens right you can't conduct intelligence operations on American citizens you can't do it it's illegal right so you have executive Order 123 and all these other rules and laws and DOD 52401 that all come out and say no Moss um so Department of Defense is supposed to focus on Military that's it you don't you don't bring in US persons information and ingest them into a Department of Defense database especially a Department of Defense intelligence database that's a super no no that's called us persons information and it's pretty much for boten so uh our

Focus was looking specifically at Military sourced information I was not focusing at all on what the private citizens were seeing because at the end of the day we couldn't use it you can't you can't do anything with and it seems like you got plenty of compelling footage from the military overwhelming overwhelming it's it there's absolutely no doubt that we didn't have to look at civilian data because we had better collection sensor systems from the military that was looking at stuff and Giving us better Insight if you you can't tell us about can you give us

some sort of an understanding of like what you're talking about yeah sure um without being specific yeah let me see um okay yeah um there is a uh a video high resolution video of uh I can't say what platform it was taken from I can't say where it was taken from but um an object that you know do you know how large a u an Offshore shore oil Derek is they're huge right they're like almost like a small city right they're like one city block they're huge they're enormous things um there is a video that

shows one of these objects under water that goes by uh the speed was calculated between 450 and 550 knots underwater and it was bigger than the offshore Derek that it was passing because you could see in the video the offshore Derek and you could see this Thing zip right by it Jesus yeah so that's a lot of them right A lot of them are reported as being trans medium right so that exactly why why do we use the term UAP right now it's Uniden ified anomalous phenomenon because it's all domain initially was UFO unidentified flying

object and for several reasons they changed the name one of them not just because of stigma like people think but because the word flying object means flight and you have To have wings to fly that's flight and these things don't have wings so that term we're not even sure is even accurate anymore because they're not necess just flying we see them underwater we see them super high altitude uh so the term was changed to unidentified aerial phenomenon on but again that did not Encompass all the observations we were seeing so now the term UAP I

think the latest description of it as unidentified anomalous Phenomenon to help describe this multi-domain or trans medium characteristic that we are beginning to see and record that these things can do and that's that is I'm going to if I can digress for a second because that's super important Joe we have trans medium Vehicles right we have things like C planes and it's a plane and it can float on water but let's face it a SE plane is neither a really good plane or a really good boat because it's a compromise it's A design compromise between

an object that you want to perform in the air and in the sea and that's why it's neither really good at both um same thing with for example the space shuttle goes out into space and it can glide down but it's not a very good airplane comes down like a brick you know right cuz there's design compromises and performance compromises but what we are seeing doesn't have any of that attributable compromise it's not these objects aren't Slowing down they're not changing their their their their performance capabilities they can do the same thing that we're seeing

in the air and and and possibly in space and and even underwater so that is a that is a fundamentally different type of Technology than we are used to dealing with is the assumption that they are doing something with space time and gravity around them rather than using something like a A jet propulsion engine that blasts fire out the back and it makes it go fast forward right that they're doing something that alters the gravity around them yeah and that's why they can go through everything yeah so we had had some of the best scientists

on the team uh folks like Dr halud off and some other folks that I'm not allowed to say their names uh Dr AR Davis and some others that were doing the calculations um mathematical calculations on on how This is possible and the consensus was by by the scientists not me because you I'm not a I'm not a physics expert I'm not a astrop physicist um they were saying that so let me back up here initially the government for years was trying to identify the different exotic technologies that could explain the different performance characteristics and it

was during the eight appears that the scientists had This consensus that if you had one type of Technology if you could do one thing all these other observables now become possible kind of think of like a unifying Theory and so if you had the ability to to create this bubble around you in a localized area that insulated you from the effects of Earth's gravity now what is gravity people think that you know when I drop my glasses that's gravity that's not gravity that's an effect of gravity gravity is the warping Of space time and that's

important because people don't you hear the thrown around a lot but they don't realize that space and time are actually connected they are they are they are one and the same they're opposite sides if you will of the same coin and so you can't have one without the other and so you have this ability to create a bubble around you that insulates you from the warping of SpaceTime let's say in this case Earth's gravity or something like that Then the way you experience time inside that bubble is perhaps fundamentally different than the way you might

experience space was time outside that bubble because you're not you're not subject to the effects of gravity which would explain potentially potentially why things don't need wings and why they don't need propulsion systems like that right so it's it's a completely different way of looking at at how we understand physics and how we as humans Move about everything we do is fundamentally Force equals mass time acceleration f equals ma right mass times acceleration get Force um this may be something a little bit different this is this is not using a again conventional thrust or if

I you know neonian right if I if I push this way I have an equal and opposite reaction that way right that's how are there any theories as to how it's accomplishing this there is actually Dr halud off About three years ago gave a speech on this uh a very uh interesting talk lecture about this technology and if you ever have the chance you really should have him on because he's a he's a he's incredible being he's also the one who helped start the government's remote viewing program and a bunch of other stuff for the

government um he's been involved in a lot of our nation's probably most most classified efforts but he was working with us on on ATP he As one of our scientists and he gave a lecture about three years ago to some other scientists about the specifics on how this is possible I am not a scientist so I definitely not going to speak on behalf of Hal pudol because I'm sure I will muck it up but I do recall a time when he came into our skiff and gave us about a three-hour like on this unifying Theory

and at that moment it was very much for us the Epiphany that a lot of us had been been Searching for he's like look at the end of the day this is how it's possible and that was kind of this wow so it's really not can you give us a morons view of How It's Possible like explain it to someone like me yeah well I'm in that category Joe so we speaking the same language sir yeah single syllable grunts right um yeah so you have uh you have an object like this cup on your table

and you want it to um be insulated from the effects Of Earth's gravity so you you create this bubble artificially using a uh a certain energetic Source at a certain frequency and it interacts with certain material certain meta material and I have again I got to be careful exactly what I say but uh certain skin of The Craft This aluminum V cup here and all of a sudden you have this bubble around you where what you see on the outside is not necessarily what you see on the inside in fact may may do little more

Drawing for you okay forgive me I'm I'm not an artist so I'm going to do this upside down for you and then I'm G to kind of scoot this just a little here all right um let's do this so unfortunately I know your audience can't see this but actually it's probably that's okay some people can there's a video form of it I'm sure this will get on it'll be on YouTube as well it's probably good that they don't cuz I'm not an artist but let's say say this is a um two-dimensional representation of a three-dimensional

space okay and in essence so what you've done is essentially you created a threedimensional looking grid stacked it look like stacked boxes on top of each other yeah right and so you have this you have location a and location B and let's say go from Los Angeles to Baltimore and it takes me five hours to Fly at 500 mph that's a function of distance over time and in essence you can mark that linearly like this so I fly takes me five hours there I am okay if you had the ability to compress SpaceTime and not

a lot just a little bit and you were able to allow these points to be a little closer together now in essence what took you let's say 5 hours and 500 mil an hour to do it um you can do it in one hour and you can do it uh in much less time but To The Observer outside because we're still in the same universe we would see something like that we would see this incredible hopscotching ability uh to to if you will um take a shortcut through space time and so what would appear to

be instantaneous acceleration Hypersonic velocity and other things um now becomes a reality and so that is that is fundamentally um what what the scientists had discovered and so it seems like science fiction but when you Understand the mathematics and some of the theorem that theyve proposed a lot of these other observables become possible so these are essentially just uh theoretical explanations of how these things are moving yeah and I'm again I'm not I'm not not a scientist I want to be very careful you know I don't want to misrepresent anything there's a whole lot of

other stuff that if you can do that all of a sudden now makes sense and may describe the observations that People are are are seeing and why they're kind of hard to see and they seem obscure right um and so I think from from a from a governmental perspective that it was kind of a revelatory moment uh for for for the folks in our in our program so they realize the one of the reasons why these things are weird looking is because they're literally they're creating want to light do you mind I'm sorry take this

thank You so the back thing uh the other side ah push that down there you go Bam um thank you very much no problem so how how much of this is theoretical and how much of this is observed from recovered vehicles I am not allowed to talk about what the government may or may to have in its possession other than that um I have I I so I went through a very lengthy pen pagon review process Recently I I I wrote I won't talk about it here but I wrote something and um I had to

go through Pentagon to have a review process and it took almost a year um in this this thing I wrote um I I I talk about up to the leg up to the part I can talk about and they approved for me to talk about up to that point when it comes to what the government may or may not have in his possession all I can simply say is that um there is very compelling evidence to suggest that the US government is in abs abolute possession of exotic material that is not made by humans now

beyond that I can't really expound upon I haven't been given permission to talk about it but what I can say is what I've already said for the record which is been approved by the Pentagon well get in trouble by saying it m is that that that we are there's very compelling data to suggest that we are In possession of why is the Pentagon teasing us why do they tell you why are they allowing you to say we are in possession of something that was not made by human beings but not allowed to elaborate not allowed

to show these very compelling videos that you're talking about that you've seen I don't well two reasons I don't think they have a choice I think with now the introduction of cell phones and ring cameras the cat's out of the B it's it's the wars kept Secret at this point two there is a faction unlike before in the Cold War I believe there is a faction of people inside the government that do want this conversation to occur but equally there's still a faction of people that are very mad with me they do not want me

having this conversation and mark my words just by me being on your show it is going to cause an absolute storm inside the Pentagon and I am sure uh the other shoe is going to drop I promise You it's G to you're going to hear all sorts of stuff people make stuff up about me trying to discredit this topic because as many people are in the government that want this topic to be discussed now there's still some people that do not want this convers could you Steelman their position say say again Steelman their position meaning

could you argue it from their perspective like why what would be a good reason to keep this stuff quiet Sure um and I want to preface here I'm not I'm not fearmongering no I don't think you are but um look if I was if I was a military person right I would look at this from the perspective of there's three options they're good they're neutral or they're bad so let's go down this road for a second let's say they're good right well we got nothing to worry about the problem is there's no nothing to suggest

that they truly are benevolent People say well you know they're like they don't want us to Nuke ourselves well you know I discuss it in and and what I wrote that there's no there's no there's no data to suggest that they they didn't stop us from dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and vaporizing 500,000 living Souls they didn't stop us when we started developing nuclear weapons from the atomic age they didn't stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons they Didn't stop the de the testing in the Nevada range of of of atomic and nuclear weapons

and now how many countries have Atomic weapons and nuclear weapons a lot right um they didn't stop Chernobyl they didn't stop Fukushima they didn't stop Three Mile Island so to say that they're here to help us I'm not sure there's there's data people say well you know in in in Min not and and in North Dakota and Montana they the UFOs came in and they stopped they they interfered with Our nuclear weapons and they brought the entire Echo flight offline which by the way I have the government report on that if you want it um

but in Russia a lot of people don't know they turned them on right so that's equally scary they're interfering with our nuclear capability whether to attack or to defend ourselves so when you say they turned to man in Russia this is a a Russian report yeah so this is a I don't know if you remember The hearing Congressional hearing that occurred last year where the DAV grush nope the other one with under secretary defense for intelligence Ronald mtry and some people from the Navy and I think it was Congressman Gallagher that asked the very specific

question and he said are you aware of uh UFOs interfering with our nuclear capabilities and the response was something like no I'm not really familiar with it never heard of it and then the question was I think re Asked specifically at these locations and the government's response was no not familiar with it well here's the actual report report from the Department of Defense this is the actual intelligence report that was released through Foya there's a there's a gentleman out there uh who runs a site called The Black Vault his name is John Greenwald he's probably

the world Authority on Freedom of Information Act and he has a wealth of data that is out available to the Public that he has received from the government this is one of those documents this is the document that our own government has no idea apparently exists I like how they write it in all caps yeah yeah that's the the old reporting so obviously there's some people that don't want this to be released and obviously there's some people that think that the the general public has a right to know I believe so that's that's my that's

been my Observations and my experience well that makes sense you know I mean like when everybody says the CIA does this like okay who who in the CIA I didn't finish though the other part right so if they're not here for friend if they're not it's not friendly right that leaves them neutral like us right or or benevolent benevolent now from military perspective and I just want to caveat I don't agree with this but I can respect the understanding you sir are a general And I say to you and I say we cannot prove that

they're not here to do something bad but what we do know is that they can interfere they they're very interested in our on our military capabilities and they have interfered with our nuclear capabilities right from a military perspective that looks an awful lot like something we call ipb Initial preparations of the battle space or perhaps even ISR intelligence surveillance and Reconnaissance whenever we're going to go into a foreign country and invade we do long range surveillance we want to know how the enemy operates how they react so even if there's a 2% chance 5% chance

that these things are are here to do something malevolent right then we probably should not tip our hands to the fact that we are aware of it publicly because what happens the moment that the bad guys in a foreign country find our surveillance team over the Border we've Got 12 hours we got we got to invade because the element of surprise is now over so some may feel on the government the mere fact of acknowledging this if there is some sort of Mal intent may push up artificially a clock that exist somewhere for these things

to say uhoh okay the the the the foolish humans are now the the cat's out of the bag they know where where we're here we need to go in now for whatever reason they may have so that is the military mindset Potentially of some of these individuals who want to keep this secret because so they're worried about an actual Invasion well but but they have to be that is that is the role of of our national security apparatus right even if there's a 1% chance right they have to consider that in their planning and in

their decision M making Matrix so again going back to what I said I respect that I don't agree with it but I can respect that if that is the reason why then I Would say okay look in your heart you really do have the best interests of the American people you are a patriot I can accept that again I don't think it's your decision to make I think it needs to go to Congress I think it needs to go to the president let the American people decide I think I I think America can handle the

truth I think America deserves the truth and let the American people decide if if it's in their best interest to know I AG with you but I Also can see it from their perspective like they're probably insanely busy already and the last thing they want to do is get involved in this thing where now they have a PR campaign when they're trying to let people know about this thing and not cause mass panic that's right that's right but you know what though I'm also very optimistic Joe because you and I are having this conversation and

people aren't making a run on Wall Street people are still Paying their mortgages going to PTA meetings and and after the 2017 New York Times report which was uh probably one of the the biggest moments in UFO disclosure because it was in the New York Times and then you see something like that in the New York especially New York Times in 2017 people really respected it it's like this is right this is a real story well and this is this is a political I mean how many topics can you go to to Congress and Have

that's not polarizing right this is one of the only ones where you can have literally have congressman bersett and and and congresswoman AOC side by side agreeing that this this is important right this is this is it's a very rare opportunity and so you know my concern I'm doing this because I I believe it's the right thing to do and my concern is that we're at a point now where I've said before you know Secrets aren't like a fine wine where the long longer you Keep a cork on it the better it gets I think

secrets are perishable I think they have a shelf life I think they're like vegetables in your refrigerator and there comes a point where if you leave them there too long they start to rot and they start to stink and it becomes a big mess to clean up right and so that's my perspective and what I'm trying to do is give the government an ability to work its way out of a corner that it's put itself into for the last several Decades and with no seeming way out right they look around like how do we get

ourselves out of this trick is there an issue of legality like of of spending and like 100% 100% there's people that would be liable for not being straightforward with Congress and I know people want their pound of Flesh I know there's people out there you we've been lied to for decades and I want and then they make it a political issue and they go after someone for yeah and I think That's the wrong approach I think you know there was a time where we needed to keep this secret and I think what you do is

you you you give those guys Awards give those guys and gals Awards who who did it don't don't make them enem make them friends and say okay look but those were different times now is the time to to to come clean talk to the members of Congress talk for all the past sins make prosecution 100% and let's just get clear with all this and Understand that it was all in good faith that you did it in the first place 100% now all in the interest of the United States security you talk about legal issues the

problem is there are the real legal issues so let's say you have again these cups forgive my analogies um you have two aerospace companies company a company B and let's say I am in the Department of Defense back in the 50s 60s and I come across this interesting technology I have no idea what the hell It is it just came out of the sky and I go to company a and I said tell me what you can figure out about that right right 10 years later company a becomes a multi-billion dollar Aerospace company company B

goes bankrupt 200 people lose their jobs and now people who have stock investors in that company lose their money right Fair Advantage keep in mind you're supposed to have Fair competition in the US government so if you give an unfair advantage to company A to B You're talking a serious liability there's SEC violations there there's all sorts of concerns one has to pay attention to because someone somewhere gave an unfair advantage to one company over another so there there's there are legal liabilities that we have to we have to recognize it's not just clear-cut okay

forgive and forget you know there's going to have to be some some additional protection uh and and understanding for if if that occurred we Need to figure out how we deal with that as well so that would be an impediment to release that makes a lot of sense yeah these are big companies right with really deep pockets and a lot of lawyers well I mean also this is a discussion that we've had on here before if you did find something who would you bring it to you bring it to the people that build your [

__ ] Jets like hey guys what the hell is this like you know you make some sort of a top secret agreement you you Bring it to them and some sort of uh undisclosed facility secured best and bright bring the guys in and go what the [ __ ] is this thing yep yeah you kind of have to otherwise like how what else would you do you know I mean how else do you find out how these things work and if you were going to do it in a secretive ma manner you would have to

bring it to defense contractors because those are the only people that are capable of making things they make your Jets they make they make the you know every stealth bomber every whatever the [ __ ] it is they make all that [ __ ] going back to you know a colleague of mine made the comparison he said look Lou imagine being uh during the days of Da Vinci and all of a sudden bringing Da Vinci a garage door opener you have no idea what it's used for right you never seen plastic before and you don't

even understand electromagnetic radiation right and and and infrared you know Where do you start on the analysis and exploitation of a technology that the physics hasn't even been discovered yet right I mean garage door openers seem like magic right it really does you know I press a button and a door opens like magic wait where's the horse where's the strings where right yeah it's kind of bananas you press a button on your car and all a sudden your door opens right and you drive in and you press another button and it closes and it's all

done Through the air right which is bananas magic but we're just accustomed to it that's right yeah so this kind of Technology um I'm sure you're aware of the Bob Lazar story I'm aware I I don't know I've never met him so you never got into that I've I did not how could you not with your line of work because you know I I always wanted to be insulated from prejudicing the jury and I know it sounds kind of strange but I didn't ever you know it's it it's it's kind of Something I impose on

myself because I didn't want to have any preconceived notions of going in most people kind of I suspect would be tempted to say well I'm going learn everything I can about you know UFO lore I wanted the opposite you're a better man than me I well all of them [ __ ] chasing that [ __ ] down you know I think um I just I I just wanted to be very very careful to preserve the investigative Integrity right and we're look we're all humans we're all biased That's there's no way around it we all have

some degree of bias let's let's be honest and truthful here it doesn't matter what type of bias it is we all have some sort of bias somewhere whether it's food or it's the people you like to date or whatever um I wanted to avoid that as much as possible and so I I always kept it very very focused on here and now and you know what what can we see today right you're aware of the story though right the basic Tangentially I that that he worked at a particular facility and at that facility he was

exposed to some sort of uh UAP technology that thing right that thing that thing right there the sport model and that he was brought in um as a propulsions expert and to try to they didn't know how it exactly worked but they they sort of just said tell me what this is Roger and then along the way he realized oh this isn't even ours yeah I'm I'm aware of again the the Overarching story I I don't know any of the details and I've I've never met him personally so I'm he a very very interesting guy

I had dinner with him with my friend Andrew Schultz and Jeremy Corbell we uh we went to dinner and you know informally talked and had a fascinating conversation and Jeremy's a great guy he's a great guy yeah he's he's really you know he's done a lot to he said to say hi hi he's pumped that we're talking yeah He's done a lot he's a UFO nut and he got me really way back in with his documentary um Bob Lazar flying saucers whatever whatever the actual title of it is but that that documentary is fantastic and

it's essentially going over Bob lazar's story from the 1980s to today which he's told the exact same story which is nuts that you have one giant lie your whole life like come on there's a lot of weirdness to the story obviously um like there is with Everything there's a lot of people that want to discredit his um his background and all sorts of other things but the reality of what he's saying is essentially what we're seeing in these crafts which is very strange so he described how these things worked and how they moved and how

they would turn sideways and sort of like project this whatever this reactor that they have inside of them and he he talked about this element Element 115 they have a stable version of it that was uh essentially is theoretical at the time in 1980 no one no one really knew whether or not that thing actually even exists ' 89 whatever it was and that they would douse this thing project radiation upon it and it would create this warp this gravity warp this this thing that allowed this this craft to move in ways that defied our

understanding hell a hell of a lucky Guess hell of a lucky guess hell of a lucky guess in 1989 wow and he drew it he his diagrams of what this thing looked like and you know how it worked and and it essentially looked exactly like that little model that's on the desk there and that he felt like the whole it didn't make any sense he said the whole thing it didn't have any seams which now we understand 3D printing right so now we know that we can actually given but only now not back Then right

I mean everything had rivets you know the skin of a craft was the skin of an aircraft had rivets and had nuts and bolts and exactly you know but now you know obviously now we have carbon fire we have a bunch of different ways of constructing things but back then he didn't know what the [ __ ] that thing was he said it looked like it had all been melted like into place like that it been like almost like Smooth like Wax like melted wax and that it had No instrumentation inside of it and it

was designed for very small things like something that was like 3 feet tall and that all these things seemed to operate through the the being itself had some sort of connection to the craft some sort of strange way of interfacing with the craft that didn't have anything to do with pulling levers and moving things but Joe is that really that much of a of a of a stretch let's let's look at this you know we have we've done experiments Where we've had Pilots be able to control aircraft thousands of miles away with a helmet that

interprets thought right right so it's you know again how do the helmet inter is it similar to like a neuralink setup have you seen the new video of the second neuralink patient I I have not this's video of him playing Counterstrike is it counter- strike or is it uh is that it so counter- strike which is a very popular online 3D game and this guy Who does not have use of his body has this neuralink implant he's the second neuralink patient and apparently with each iteration it gets more and more sophisticated and and better so

this is a from this person's point of view he's playing this video game entirely with his mind better than I can with my my well better than anybody can can was the first guy who the first neuralink patient we had him on and he said essentially is like having an Aimbot Because you you don't miss you look at the thing you're trying to shoot at and instantaneously your crosshairs go there wow yeah so he's all this stuff is taking place entirely this is all him doing this entirely with his mind but is is that right

so if we can do that now right right is it really that far of a stretch to think that you know someone who's a little more advanced than us right friends from out of town realize that's The way to do it that's more efficient right the the speed of the processing of the brain the processes of the brain is much F takes us longer to then have to mechanically use our hands and manipulate and do things this is almost not quite but almost instantaneous uh you don't have that lag right right of course and so

that would certainly make sense um you know Modern Warfare not the game but actual Modern Warfare is beginning to turn to that and we're Using Ai and all these other augmentation to enhance performance and so I I don't think that's out of the realm of of possibility no certainly not I mean just go from garage door openers to you know 500 600 years ago to today and then cell phones the ability to send video across the world instantaneously all all the sophisticated stuff that we just completely take for granted because it's become a normal part

of our everyday life that that's you know I Used to I used to give a briefing to some folks um I'm so glad you mentioned this because it's this goes back to the whole stigma taboo issue I used to have a slideshow and still have it somewhere and I would I would discuss the word the the Latin word prefix of par p a r a and it means above or beside and so what I would do is show I would say the word parachute and I'd ask people what do you think of when you hear

the word Parachute and people would describe obviously something that deploys over your head and hopefully hit the ground with a with a thump and not a thud right uh but something that's normal we use every day and then I say what about the word paramedic and then people people would look at it and say well I think of a first responder someone good some you know some sort of medical Lifesaver that's going to going to be there for your benefit and then I say the word When I say the word paranormal what do you think

and people will stop for a second maybe they kind of give you a little Sly smile and they say what do you mean I said what do you mean I mean that paranormal the the only reason why you're reacting the way you are because you've been conditioned that the word paranormal is is cookie stuff when in reality in science by definition everything is paranor normal until it becomes normal the cell phone that I use Every day 50 years ago absolutely paranormal and so I would go through this exercise of things that were once considered paranormal

for example when the Inca first saw the Spaniards the conistor coming from the the reconquering they saw them on the shores of the beach and they saw these these humans in armor riding on a horse and they assumed because they never seen a horse before they assumed it was a single entity it was a single Monster And that for them was paranormal they didn't understand it is actually human riding on a horse with you know metal skin same thing with acupuncture I remember a time when I was growing up as a kid people thought Eastern

medicine acupuncture was nonsense well now at the Veterans Administration the VA for some of my guys in combat they actually prescribe acupuncture as therapy it's not paranormal right and so there's all these examples in history where we think Something is kooky and weird when in reality it's not it's just we don't understand it yet and we have done such a good job of stigmatizing this conversation that the moment you even say the word paranormal or you say the word UFO or anything like that people are conditioned without even thinking about it's reflexive to react a

certain way and we have to first deprogram ourselves first a little bit before we can start moving forward okay let's how Do we destigmatize this conversation well first of all what's cooki you know what what what do you think is cooky about something that's in our airspace that's performing in ways that we can't replicate you know that people say well you know we wait a minute we spend Millions if not billions of dollars putting a probe on Mars to try to find microbial life and by the way it looks like that might happen it looks

like they're actually may be some Evidence that suggest that we spend lots of money trying to find techno signatures of intelligent life radio signatures in our own Milky Way right well is it possible within the 4 and a half billion years our planet's been here that maybe intelligent life maybe found us first is it possible could be you know we we we have to stop putting these these limitations Joe when I was when I was in the medical program uh when I was learning to be microbi Microbiology and Immunology in college um we learned from

our professor that homo sapiens sapien as a modern species has been around roughly between 100,000 to 200,000 years now I'm not an expert but that's that's what they say it was only the Greeks 2,000 years ago that introduced the idea that there's only two types of life forms on this planet and either you are either a a plant or B you're an animal and it wasn't the last 300 years so if you look at a 24-hour Clock roughly the last 5 minutes in the 24 hours towards midnight we discovered another form of life that is

neither plant nor animal that's been here with us on this planet and that is the world of fungus during the Renaissance uh and the days of Newton we discovered that there was this other life form we've been sharing all along and we so we Pat ourselves on the shoulder and it wasn't the last 120 years think about it the last 10 seconds of our existence on this Planet so to speak in a 24-hour clock as a modern species we actually discovered the true dominant life form on this planet and in fact if you take all

the biomass of every plant and the biomass of every animal and the biomass of every fungus and add it all up together it still will not equal the biomass of this hidden Kingdom of life that's actually the life form on this planet and that wasn't until we were able to curve glass and look through a little steel tube and Famously shout little beasties little beasties did we discover the world of microorganisms that yes live inside of you and yes live on the skin of the ISS space station yes live miles underneath the arctic ice right

that is the true dominant life form on this planet and it always has been and it wasn't in the LA until the last 120 years we discovered that so is it possible that there's something else that is just as normal to this world is it possible well the Answer is a resounding yes of course it's possible because we're always discovering new new new new ways life can exist when I was growing up as a kid I was told absolutely as a matter of fact all life form is derived from photosynthesis ultimately when you go all

the way down it turns out that's not true it wasn't until we discovered the in the deepest deepest depths of our oceans where these things called black smokers we discovered there are Creatures that thrive with no light and they Thrive off of something called chemosynthesis a completely different way to metabolize energy to sustain life right so every time we put mother nature in a little box she always finds a way to wiggle her way out and I think that's important when having this conversation because if there's one thing we know as human beings we're usually

wrong at first well we exist and we do send things to other planets we do send Things into space it only makes sense that's something far more intelligent than us that would be doing that and if they did they'd probably watch an emerging civilization which is essentially what we are right in in like you said 200,000 years which is nothing the existence of homo homo sapiens they've gone from things that use stones and Flint map to things that can fly things through the air I mean if you look at Orville Wright and Wilbur Wright When

they flew the first airplane you go from that to the Apollo 11 launch that's only like what 50 years that's right something crazy like that that's right that's nuts right and you just take that and everything moves exponentially you take that and you would imagine a civilization that's been around 10,000 years longer than us 100,000 years longer a million years longer than us something that doesn't exist how about a 100 years we have evolved more in the Last 150 years than we have in the last 150,000 years I so you know and then you have

the other other from me I find when people say well the space is so huge and and you know is it possible that things are coming from outer space my my response has always been the same look I I don't know where they're from I I just know that they're here and and could they be from outer space sure they can be from Inner Space or even the space in between and and I say that because the Universe is far more complex than than we give it credit for every time you know there was a

time we had Newtonian physics we thought that was a solution then all all of a sudden Einstein comes along and we realize that weight space and time are actually connected and then Everything's Relative and all of a sudden now you have quantum mechanics which is you know this spooky action at a distance right where the whole universe is behaving in a way that it Shouldn't and yet that looks like the real way the universe works um I I often tell people we are as humans we we have five only five fundamental senses that we can

base our reality upon and if you can't touch it taste it hear it smell it Etc we can't interact with it and so where I live in Wyoming we have these beautiful night skies kind of kind of like you have here uh in your in your studio here uh 300 days of unoccluded night skies and as beautiful as those Night skies are if you were to look at that same portion of the night sky through a radio telescope you would see a whole different reality around you you'd see nebula and you'd see things in different

Spectra that we can't pick up you pick an UltraViolet and infrared so you would see a whole different reality just like our cell phones right if you could see in cell phone vision and see in Wi-Fi and 5G and GPS you would interact with your environment Completely different because you would see reality so we can only interact with a very small sliver of the reality that we can perceive because we're humans but most of reality is actually beyond that and then of course you have scalability issues the universe is is is immensely huge and what

scientists are now saying if you look in any direction you can see roughly within the visible let me emphasize visible Horizon of our universe is about 13.9 billion light Years plus or minus so that means in any direction I can see 13.9 billion Lighty years with the right equipment what's a lightyear well it's as fastest light can travel in a year Well light travels pretty fast in fact it travels at 186,000 miles per second so 7 and a half times around our planet in 1 second so imagine how far you can go in a year

now multiply that by 13.9 billion and that by scientists estimation so if if the universe end to end of our visible we're Stuck in the middle is roughly 27 billion light years scien are now saying that's only possibly only 10% of the known universe because the universe is so big and so vast and so far light will never have time to reach Earth so that's that's aund at a minimum 100 billion light years right and so we are this little speck in the middle and as as as crazy as that is to to even try

to conceive if you compare one atom inside the one hydrogen atom avagadro's number Right 1 time 10 the negative all the way down uh it is roughly the same level of scale as we are to the universe meaning that atom is the size of a human as we are the size of the universe as we are a human to the size of the universe so there is this and we as humans can only interact plus or minus with one order of magnitude up or down otherwise the universe is simply too big or too small meaning

most of the universe and reality lies in those scales we we live in this Little tiny tiny sliver and so you hurt my head yeah we live in a tiny sliver and the idea that we're alone I think is preposterous I really do and I know people they constantly chime in with this so where's the evidence if you know Elon famously said if they aliens are real they're very subtle I don't know why he says that though I think I think he probably says that because he doesn't want to sound Like a c while he's

working with NASA and SpaceX you know I'd probably say some stuff like that too well let me ask you this H as human beings right how many times do we fly over the serengetti in a in a helicopter right and let's say we want to monitor the health of a particular you know uh herd of elephants right and so what happens or wilder beast we fly over we pick one we we shoot it with a tranquilizer it falls asleep we go down we do some tests pull Its blood now think about it from the perspective

of the wilderbeast right it wakes up kind of meanders over to the watering ho and says Bill you're not going to believe this man but something out of the came down and all of a sudden they were touching me and you know I woke up and my butt hurt right what the hell was that um to this day even in China when we go into a zoo right and we have the panda bear exhibits what do we do we put to so we don't disrupt the Pandas we wear Panda Suits now it sounds silly but

you can actually get online and see zookeepers wearing Panda suits because they don't want to SC they want to interfere as least as possible with the natural flora and fauna they're inside the exhibit right PL animals could you was was it reasonable to theorize that there's aliens amongst us when you say um well two things so I I don't want to be evasive let me but I also want to be very specific when we Say aliens and then we also are we are we saying something from another planet or are we simply saying non nonhuman

intelligence that looks like us that moves around with us so is it possible well we're doing it already with the panda bear so you know I don't it's not that we a strategy that'd be very simple sure uh and especially if you have the technology now as far Asar yeah there you go right carrying little baby pandas exactly right that's boy those are Shitty panda bear outfits too they're [ __ ] terrible looking they're pretty terrifying aren't they actually put that in front of my dog he's going to bark if like a dude in a

dog costume he like uhh that ain't a [ __ ] dog yeah well how a wild panda bear not no that dude's not a panda bear that's crazy see that he's a panda terrorist looks like a [ __ ] alien like if it was really dark out and that guy grabbed you and and Zapped you with A tranquilizer he'd have an alien story but yeah my point is that we we always you know use camouflage uh for obvious reason we do it in military right camouflage camouflage uniform I stealth aircraft you know for camouflage sure

you do it when you go hunting absolutely I do absolutely so so it's not it's not a stretch of the imagination to suggest anything coming here that doesn't want to provoke us probably wants to blend in now of course do I have any type of Empirical evidence to suggest that they are living among us I don't what I can say definitively that whatever it is it's here and and by the way you already have very senior people in our government that have said it it's here whatever it is but these things could also be from

under the water these things could be something that is as natural to Earth as the little beasties were right when we first discovered them maybe maybe they've been here all along Right right so the the the ocean is largely undiscovered one of the things that people need to understand is that most of the exploration of the ocean is really essentially around the outside side edges that's right it's around the shores less than 10% so which is nuts buddy of my 90% of the ocean like what we know more about the moon then the bottom of

our own ocean um and so that's so crazy yeah that's fact and these underwater crafts like this enormous one That apparently was uh near this oil rig how many of them have been has there been more than one of those videos so let me tell you what I can say from open source okay um and then I'll tell you about a conversation I had without attribution because I don't want don't want to get in trouble um everybody's well I say everybody a lot of people are familiar with the Air Force program called the fast Walker

program which is a program that was uh Started by the Air Force among other things was to detect UFOs that's a fact actually that's that was part of their mission okay uh to detect a lot of things adversarial technology but UFOs was one of them it's called the fast Walker program there was uh some information that was released publicly uh about a similar program the Navy has I I I can't talk about it because I I don't have approval to talk about it uh but Obviously they're interested because they have equities underwater they're interested if

there's anything underwater that can perform beyond anything we have and I remember speaking to one individual uh who pulled me aside very privately and he said Lou uh we were tracking this thing doing and I won't say the exact speed but hundreds and hundreds of knots underwater and it was bigger than our own submarine right now you know how big our Submarines are right they're huge and I asked them naively I just kind of came out what do you do when you encounter that and he just said very honestly he said we go around just

like that we go around have there been interactions with these things I I we're not at Liberty to discuss any details about that that's not for me to discuss um you know I uh you and I got to get drunk I'm a lightweight you know I got to get you Drunk um let's go have some whiskey find out what the [ __ ] is up um so this thing is bigger than the sub and they they followed it for hundreds of miles uh let me give you another great great um event that occurred and I'll

talk about this because it's not classified um the portions that might be I don't know about so I should be fine um there's an individual who I'm aware of who was a Hilo pilot a helicopter pilot back in the late '90s uh in the Caribbean And they were doing missile recovery so what happened is that the Navy would test fire missiles and then they kind of run out of fuel they hit the water and they sink at a predetermined time they they pop to the surface we grab it with a helicopter bring it back to

Shore and we we test it for Telemetry and make sure that you know this cruise missile was doing it supposed to do so they're out there in the helicopter um Frogman hanging down the Line uh you got the Helo pilot you got the crew chief and and other P co-pilot looking all down at the bubble and as they're about to grab this this cruise missile out of the ocean something huge and round and what was described to me as black as a devil starts to rise to the surface the water begins to churn very much

like David fr's description of the Tic Tac incident and the roing water the Frogman is so freaked out he's literally trying to climb the line back Up he's like total panic at the Disco right and and the helicopter is like do we do like an emergency a s what the hell's going on here and right as this thing is about and by the way it's the size of a small island and round right as this thing is about to break the surface it sucks the missile down and disappears Jesus and that was yeah and uh

Dave fraver could probably tell you that story a little better than I can uh but when you compare that to other Things you got to say imagine being that guy hanging from that line no no thank you we call that bait yeah but it didn't do anything to him no I would have loved that experience yeah so that was uh that was one of the anecdotes that was revealed to us by one of theine helic pilot who's that guy that was hanging from that FR I I I don't know I only even know the pilot

come come talk to me please sir I only know the pilot we'll put you in a [ __ ] Panda Outfit we'll disguise your voice tell me what the [ __ ] you saw I want to hear that story oh my God small island yep black as the devil in a small island and round yeah submarines look like this right they're not round right so yeah so that was uh that was one of the anecdotes that was shared with us um you know obviously Puerto Rico with the uh other there's been some uaps that have

been recorded off there everybody knows about agadia the agadia incident I don't Know about it oh I'm sure you do you don't know tell me wow trust me so you can look it up online there's a video taken by a DHS helicopter of a very interesting object at first it appears to be like a perhaps a balloon but then it does all sorts of weird stuff and as they're tracking it it enters the water with without making a splash you can track it underwat then it comes up and splits into two and it's called and

it's been analyzed over and over again by a Lot of experts it's called the agadia incident maybe I have seen this is a kind of blurry looking night vision that's it oh wow and so keep watching that and I'll tell you a little story about this uh this is a Customs and Border Protection release this how fast is this thing going uh well so if you look here they're looking at this through a a form of night vision I don't know the exact velocity all that is available but if you keep watching this Something interesting

happens so here it goes you're going to see this thing enter the water here there he goes underwater and then it pops back up and splits into two keep they they're tracking it see no waves no wake and then it surfaces and then uh does something pretty pretty interesting here so keep watching so it's going high speed through the water underwater that's underwater then it breaks the surface of the water again you keep Watching boom underwater overw waterer boom underwater out of water and then you'll see it split into two so I didn't see it

split into two did you see it if you watch the rest of the video the there it is there is yeah the video is actually really long but that's just one example um you know this is uh these are you can see all these videos they're they're prevalent they're everywhere you see that the eight the Aircraft on the bottom right you see the UAP on top that's tracking it yeah yeah no wings no control surfaces uh and it it keeps up with the A10 and does all sorts of interesting Maneuvers right so that's an A10

warthog and this thing is just following it yep like it's nothing do you think they're trying to let people see them like if you had a guess you know I I don't know I mean could it be a demonstration of capabilities we do that Right every time a Russian surveillance aircraft comes by we launch two f-22s and we get real close to it and say Hey you know right be careful but not even from a military perspective like if a civilization was trying to alert another civilization about its presence wouldn't it like go towards whatever

military vehicles it has and and show itself and then I would imagine that if they understand human beings they understand our psychology and they understand that Some giant size of an island black as the devil circular craft that lands next to the Pentagon would [ __ ] end the world we would freak out no one would know what to do it would that would be St stock market crash mass chaos no one would know what to do the way to introduce yourself I would imagine would be gradual over a long period of time to allow

this this civilization to accept the fact these things exist and then slowly but surely Show versions of themselves yeah we call that Sensi sensitization you sensitize the population or environment but you know the counterargument to that is that's a very human thing right we have as hum we we always it's it's almost innate we look at everything through anthropomorphic eyes we we look at you know our our pet dogs and and we give them human names and we do things like that because we assign human value to things and because we have intentions And motivations

but most of nature isn't that way like for example when a shark bites a surfer he's not wanting to hurt the surfer he's just hungry the shark's hungry I don't care if you're a seal or whatever you know I don't want to I'm not trying to inflict pain I'm just want to feed my belly and inent and motivation is a very human thing and we have to we have to I don't want to say resist the urge because it's almost impossible to do it but we have to Recognize that there are there are things that

may exist that aren't don't have human motivation meaning right maybe they don't care about sensitizing us maybe they do but maybe it's like a like a computer right maybe it's binary maybe there's some sort of binary thought process just information in and and information out so that's the one one of the aspects I've always been very careful with is to assign human traits to something that is very likely not Human right but would you have to assign human traits to it or would you have if you you could look at it from the perspective of

these things are aware of our psychology they're aware of how we function and they aware of the fragility of our worldview you don't have to have human intention to have a strategy for doing the least amount of harm to this emerging civilization in fact there's examples of that let me reinforce your Point because there's examples of that my background being science in nature you know when lionesses stalk the zebras you know they get very low into the grass they don't want to be seen right they're not motivated necessarily because they don't want to Spook the

HD but they they do it it's it's it's a it's almost instinctual right it's it's part of their DNA part of their wiring to have a lowprofile low observability and to get closer to their target Whether it's cray or anything else so you're right that mean there is there are examples in nature that also can suggest that so it's a very good point yeah I mean it just makes sense that if it understands us if it's obser look we understand the behavior characteristics of sloths right right we we study them we know what they do

and it would just make sense that if they're studying us they would understand our Behavior characteristics like I mean the tiger Recognizes the behavior characteristics of the zebra doesn't it right it studies it and so it knows what it has to do to get close to the zebra so there no way they would come here with ignorance and I think also it's very likely that what we are exists in many many places in the universe and that what we are is what they used to be so they probably understand what we are well we do

that in the Amazon don't we and in in afcan tribes lost tribes that are remote right Separated by outside human contact we study them we study them from afar but we do the same thing yes yeah no no question and obviously if they are the super intelligent creatures they evolve to become super intelligent creatures so there's probably some sort of universal process that takes place amongst all intelligent creative life that has a Lust For Innovation they consistently make better and better versions of these flying crafts until they figure out how To make this warp drive

thing that these things apparently have another thing that's odd is that you see the same kind of things that Kenneth Arnold saw in 1950 you see the same kind of today it's almost like you know going somewhere in the 1950s and seeing a 55 Chevy and then in 2024 seeing another 55 they're still driving around 55 Chevys like what the [ __ ] well they do do that in Cuba right but that's just because they don't have access to other cars really good Mechanics that's your people it is my I'm really resisting the urge of

Contin to smoke this thing right now okay I feel terrible up don't feel terrible I feel terrible my wife is going to give me hell for this I don't think there's anything wrong with cigars man like I was saying before I never heard of a single person dying from cigars you don't inhale them take a little bit of smoke in your mouth it's pleasurable it's Nice um I would just think that that's what they would do because that's what we would do and I think that's what intelligent life would do we it recognize something that

wasn't quite as intelligent as us we don't rush into these you know remote tribes and vaccinate them what what do we do we don't give them but you know the thing is like they have done some things like they gave starlink to this one tribe and the kids all started watching porn you Heard about that I heard yeah became a real problem they're all lazy hanging out on their phones all day which makes sense like that's what we do yeah tribal leaders are not happy you bring up another very interesting point is there a natural

Glide slope or a Natural Evolution to Evolution meaning any species that reaches a certain point is there a natural progression of any intelligent species to progress to the point like because all life is expansive Right life doesn't contract life expands whether it's bacterial life whether it's animal life or human life it is there are certain biological functions to procreate multiply and continue to expand right so is that a is that a universal Norm that is is is that part of like fractals in Geometry throughout the universe is that part of the blueprint of all life

or or is it only specific to life here on Earth and that's a great question because there's Probably arguments to suggest that yeah there probably is a natural if there's a natural blueprint for physics in the universe there probably since life has to abide by physics probably a natural potentially natural blueprint for the evolution of all life whether again bacterial or or animal or human or anything else nonhuman it makes sense it makes sense that everything moves into greater levels of complexity from single- cell organisms to human beings That pilot drones I mean it just

keeps going in in the same general direction observably here and if the universe is infinite that means there's infinite versions of what we're seeing here with us that exists throughout the cosmos and probably in infinite steps along the way right a hundred years from now a thousand years from now yeah well not to make light of it but I'll tell you recently so I've I've learned over the years it's it's there's nothing more Expensive than a than a cheap lawyer U so I've got a couple good lawyers that I that I work with on just

contractual stuff and one of them is named uh Ivan hanel I call him the bull and I've learned to appreciate shout out to Ivan the in shout out to Ivan the infinite complexity of Law and legal right so right so if if there is this natural progression as we're talking about life I mean we even see it in our in our own human interactions right this this this Intricate complexity of how things work and how even in in the way we behave with each other socially know you look at a when I was in the

um in the government you could look at a terrorist link analysis and that link analysis still follows those fractal patterns that the patterns in our our lungs the patterns of lightning the patterns of super medanic clouds and Galaxy superclusters of galaxies all have that same pattern and it's not just a Physical pattern it's a social pattern right and so again um I not to make joke of it but you know I'm learning that it's it's beyond these patterns are Beyond just physical patterns you know even in something as as as as silly but fundamental as

law there are these patterns that continue to spin off and and whatnot so um yeah I can appreciate that I think I think we're at a point now as a species where we probably should be having these conversations and I'll also say this Joe there are parts of this conversation I don't feel the government has any place there is definitely a national security conversation here but the conversation we're having as as can tell is far beyond National Security right we're talking philosophical psychological sociological theological implications that I'm not sure I want my government necessarily dictating

for me what I should think about this well the Government's supposed to be working for us ultimately and they are supposed to be us you know the problem is when you have access to information that's above and beyond the normal person's realm that could affect everyone on this planet this understanding that we are not alone but not only that we're probably not even alone here it's not even that something is visiting us something's probably here all the time you know and this is the main thought About these underwater Vehicles well life is abundant on this

planet isn't it and it and it thrives in places that we thought life could never Thrive before it's it's everywhere it almost seems like a natural function if you have certain situations and circumstances on a on a rock somewhere then life pops up it seems like if we can actually find it on Mars and they're like you were saying before they may have found some sort of an Evidence of microbiological life if We find it on Mars and we find it somewhere they think maybe Europa underneath the surface that's right that's right and Europa probably

is powered by volcanic vents the same way the bottom of our ocean is that there might be some sort of life form chemosynthesis not photosynthesis so and this is just what we know about here you know imagine all the different potential realities in terms of what a planet's atmosphere could be like you know you're Dealing with larger planets that have more gravity you're dealing with different kinds of temperature variations look at Titan it's got a meth it's methane and by the way that's organic chemistry right it's it's got methane clouds right so there are things

that thrive in these types of environment maybe they have cow farts up there too yeah too many but yeah I mean you're you're you're absolutely correct I think we have again this goes back to The original point of every time we try to put mother nature in a box she always finds a way to wiggle her way out of it and prove us wrong if the one thing we're right about is that we're always wrong right um how much what I don't know if you could talk about this but how much of an effort is

there to try to detect things under the surface of the ocean I would defer that to the United States Navy and maybe Noah naal Oceanographic yeah no not no yeah not the biblical Noah oh Jesus yeah no no I mean Noah go that far back National oceanographic and uh and Atmospheric speaking of going that far back I mean how much of I got to think that when people are delving into this stuff they they look at ancient scriptures and ancient these different depictions of things whether it's the vimanas uh in the Hindu texts and whether

it's in the bhabat Gita there's All these different stories of in Ezekiel in the Bible there's things yeah that seem to if I was a person living thousands of years ago and I encountered a flying saucer or encountered some spaceship from another planet I would probably describe it in the way that they're describing it yeah I mean I mean like just like sort of the azex Des is tomorrow's technology right um so I can tell you when I went to Italy I spoke to one of the senior I think it was a month Senor one

of the senior um Vatican academics and he said to me he says look the Vatican doesn't have problem with this topic this is something in fact in the six up until the 1600s it was heretical to presume or assume that mankind was the only if you will uh incarnation of God representation of God it was actually because but in essence you're putting limitations on the Dominion of what God can and can't do right and uh there are These the Scrolls in fact that are in the Vatican archives that discuss it's a conversation between a Roman

soldier and a Roman general where they describe uh there's something called ecus ecus in Latin means um like sun eclipse right it's the shape of the Roman shield and they talked about these flaming Roman shields in the sky that would follow them from battles space to battle space and and and Mr jacqu valet could probably expound much more upon that Than I can but this was just a brief conversation I had with with someone there is very slippery he is he very slippery he don't he don't commit to anything he looks at you sideways and

yeah he uh you know he he did a lot of lot of good stuff uh and he's an incredibly smart guy great great researcher just phenomenal you know big bra he's the reason that guy Close Encounters of the Third Kind the guy he's the inspiration for the French Guy I heard that yeah I never had the guts to ask him I figure he gets tired of being heard I'm sure see when you're talking to him you're like go that's the guy but um you know there's there's there's a lot of and when you look at

what the Vatican is I mean really it's probably the world's oldest most capable intelligence organization because they have priests around the world that people will report miracles to right and or in confessions to and eventually that Gets filtered up to the Vatican so you know talk about you know the world's first CIA and KGB it was it was Vatican baby those guys had it had it going on and so no wonder they have all this archival excuse me archival information and some of it relates to UAP wow yeah it only makes sense that these things

if they're here now they've probably been visiting us since back when we're on horseback yeah and Probably quite a bit before then and maybe that's the scariest thing for people they might be responsible for us being humans in the first place well you remember the stories right of even Christopher Columbus coming over to the new world there were some interesting accounts when they're on the water of potentially some sort of UAP interaction I did not know that yeah you can look it up online this is all open source but you can look type it up

and there there Were some very interesting accounts and even you know old old old sailor accounts you know of of you know people say well you know old sailor also talked about you know big giant Kraken and stuff like that but there was always an element of truth to it now we realize there are giant squid of the Pacific right well not only that Krakens they think likely did exist yeah well they because octopus when they rot they don't leave anything but they did find Fossilized suction cups from they still do it's called the Great

squid of the Pacific we find it yeah that that for sure but they think maybe perhaps even an enormous octopus that probably actually did go after boats you know we call we we called them sea monsters back then but really you know we we laugh about it now but it turns out there are sea monsters there's just called great white sharks and you know that's a [ __ ] sea monster right You that was a real thing a great white shark is now I mean absolutely go swimming with a great white shark and tell me

that's not a monster right exactly so um you know it's we just realize though it's just part of nature it's part of our existing Paradigm tigers are monsters right absolutely you know especially at night when you don't have a flashlight that thing behind the bush that's a monster right you know um did you find anything on the Columbus stuff one thing I'm seeing is from an ancient aliens episode you know it's legit I saw a crash something crashed into the water but I I can't find yeah there were some reports of some interesting lights um

that the crew had reported and it was actually he put it down in his log book something about uh some now some folks will come back and say well that's St elma's fire which absolutely could be you know what is St elma's fire exactly St elma's fire is a Static charge it it occurs on the wing tips of aircraft even the old Sailors would report it in certain uh environmental conditions um there is this weird greenish blue plasma glow that will often sometimes be seen on the tips of wing tips on aircraft you could it's

actually there's some really good pictures of it online and even on the old Mariners ships uh up towards the sails and the masts and they believe it's it's um it has to do with static Charge and under certain environments um it creates this this energized plasma and you can see it and so is that similar to like ball lightning well it could be here you go so um and they call it St elma's fire that's [ __ ] badass yeah and so that's yeah see around the cockpit of the aircraft W and by the way

you see the patterns it's fractal right look at that ship so very very interesting uh how uh St Elmo's Fire you know can cause some people to you know Perhaps see things and say it's well also they might be seeing that yeah they might right but there there are some accounts of of ancient Mariners who who report uh strange bizarre things M yeah again it makes sense um that was one of the more weird parts of Bob lazar's uh story was that uh they've always been here and that they they view us as containers containers

interesting yeah there and he he said there's a very thick document that relats to The the implications that it has on religion and like what what they the way they talk about us well religion calls us vessels right religious scripture and a lot of different religions refer to humans as as vessels you know I'm certainly not a religious expert so I you know I don't want to pontificate here and say something that's inaccurate but you know that that doesn't surprise me well I think the the term was I think they were saying vessels for Souls

but If you imagine that a being transcends its physical limitations of biological reality right so the biological evolution that led us to be become Homo sapiens over the course of you know x amount of millions of years that's a very slow process but technological innovation and technological progress is very quick very quick especially when you add in artificial intelligence exponential that's right yeah so if something comes Along that is a life form that exists outside of biology like something that we create which it seems like we're doing right now like AI right when does that

become sentient now is that a life form you know not biological thing in order for it to ever occur maybe that thing needs a thing with a soul that has a creative desire that has a a Lust For Innovation and continues to make better and better things and maybe that thing Only exists in biology and maybe the problem with artificial life is it has no motivation and that we have especially if it's self-programmable right so one of very bizarre things um that was recently discovered about uh artificial intelligence they gave artificial intelligence a certain amount

of time to uh to code something to figure something out and when it didn't have enough time it changed its code to give itself more Time fascinating yeah like what fascinating what the [ __ ] you talking about it it's deciding that it doesn't like its limitations so it won't have any of the biological motivation we have right it won't have ego it won't have materialism it won't have a desire for status it won't have all the things that lead us to do some of the horrible things that human beings do I could not agree

more and also some of the great things that human beings do but maybe it Also doesn't have any desire to create and maybe the only way for its kind of life to exist is for a human being a biological thing that's super intelligent in comparison to the rest of the animals on this planet that innovates to the point where it creates this artificial life I'm I'm going to share something very very personal with you and I know when I say with you I know it's with everybody else but you know I part of my struggle

is I can't I can't urge the government to be transparent and I'm not transparent myself right it's it's hypocritical so let me share with you a very personal story because you bring something up that I think is fascinating um I'm a human being but if for whatever reason I get into a car accident I lose an arm I'm I'm still Lou Alando right in fact if I lose my legs and all my arms I'm still Lou so my body doesn't Define who I am and my intellect right um if I suffer a traumatic brain injury

let's say I'm in Afghanistan and a TBI and my my my brain is compromis I'm still Lou and so so what makes Lou or what makes Joe Joe well it's not not your physical self and and probably not not even your intellectual self my my mother I was very close to my mother my mother was was was incredible human Being and I'll share this story with you and take away with it what you want I was very young maybe two two and a half three years old and I remember watching a show with my mother

one of my very first memories and in this TV show I don't remember what show it was but I remember that a shark had eaten a dog and I was shocked my first understanding that what death was and I looked to my mom I said Mom what just happened and she said well son the shark ate the dog Said 'what does that mean she said well the dog's not coming back the dog died I said well does everything die she said well yes son everything dies I said well Mom you're not you're not going to

die you're a mom right gave me life she said no son one day I'm going to die and I remember spending from that day forward as God as my witness I spent every single day of my life knowing one day my mother was going to die and it terrified me I was Very very close with her and um one day that day came uh my mother was diagnosed with cancer um and she started uh her body started failing and despite the best efforts she um we knew she wasn't going to make it and um you

know when you love somebody sometimes doesn't sound right but sometimes you deceive them you know they want to know they're in a in a bad State physically and mentally to say you know am I going to make it and you say yeah Of course you're going to make it right knowing full well that there's probably not good chance they going to make it and um so we're in the hospital and uh my mother had at this point been in probably state of coma for about a week and uh it was just me my wife and

a couple members of the family uh very very sad moment and my mother began this process of death called you know when someone's going to die there's something called a Death rattle and it's when the mucus begins in the back of the throat to to congeal and it makes breathing it can be very unnerving for the people who have to Witnesses it's very very common it's called a death rattle um it's the body beginning to shut down and I knew something told me my mom my mom was going to go very quickly within the next

30 seconds to a minute so long story short um my mother's body was at that point it Was a husk an empty husk it was broken um her brain had shut down and yet the very moment she passed away within 5 seconds I knew it there was just something weird something reached and said this is it she's going and I reached over the bed and I looked at my mom her eyes all of a sudden opened up and she looked right at me and even though her brain had been compromised and what wasn't working her

body was was was nothing anymore and she Was a beautiful woman she was she was she was a she worked for Playboy she was a beautiful lady at one time a model she was her body resembled nothing of what she did she looked at me and she passed but we communicated and I knew there was something else at that moment more to a human being more than just a body more than just a brain there is something that is That is beyond the physical and even intellectual part of what it means to be human and

I felt it and everybody in the room felt that it was undeniable you can call it a soul an ID a cheat whatever I you know you can put a label on it I don't know what it's called I don't know what it is but I do know that was the essence of my mother and the moment she passed it was as weird feeling because as my mother laid there dead in The bed it wasn't my mother anymore that Essence whatever made my mother my mother and and you could see the light in her eyes

it was it's like someone turning off a light switch is very and I've been around death a lot never you know it's a terrible horrible thing especially in Warfare but but this was something something visceral this was something far more intimate this was this cut to my soul and I could Recognize it and she recognized me and I recognized her even though that the brain functions were gone so so I guess my point is I absolutely believe there's something more to the human experience than simply a tangible body and and a brain um and I

and I witnessed this firstand now people can say all sorts of stuff they want to you know I don't care you know I got enough haters out there anyways you know if they want to think that I'm trying to you Know hope that my mother has a soul and she goes somewhere I'm just telling you what I experienced and other people experience too and it was um it was proof for me at that moment that there's much more to to us as as as human beings I had a very similar feeling when I went to

my grandfather's funeral and I saw him in the casket um cuz it was it was an open casket and I knew he's gone I'm like that's not him that's right it's just a Shelf you and you can sense it you feel it yeah it it was a very strange feeling yeah you know and obviously he's wearing makeup because they've got him in a suit and the whole deal but I was like that is not my grandfather he's not there anymore and it's not like you're trying to override this acknowledgement that they're dead you know they're

dead it's just that whatever made that person that person it's not in the body anymore it's gone there's a bizarre feeling that we Have that you don't I don't think there's words for it yeah no I I it's a feeling it is and you can't and it's again it's not an intellectual or even a physical thing yeah um that the idea that we're containers for souls are just so goddamn creepy this is a farm of souls I'm not familiar with that hypothesis but it sounds interesting also scary perhaps well it's scary for Us you know

but like you you got to wonder why we are so different than every other creature in that we have this insane insatiable desire to change our environment constantly build bigger sky scrapers and to move the Earth and we we're constantly inventing new technology I mean it seems to be an instinct that's a part of us and this gradual progression of Life Is Life goes from intelligent biological life to Super intelligent whatever it is whatever whatever kind of Technology creates it that life is not as simple as uh this H natural selection model that we have

here that we think applies to life that like this is a type of life and then there's a life that this thing creates well you know Evolution isn't just a physical thing is it evolution is is the ability to change with within One's environment over over time and that's a that's a that's a fascinating concept you bring up because some speculate that it is inevitable that human beings will eventually evolve into something we're just a link in a much longer chain right and that all intelligent life potentially goes through this process and that this is

a natural process where eventually we actually make ourselves extinct not not in the way where we kill ourselves but We wind up creating a life form whether it's AI or we start enhancing ourselves with more and more machine interface and and and you know life doesn't have to necessarily be organic right you could have potent I me silicon is very very close to carbon in some cases so you know is it possible that that life it is it is Destiny for all life eventually to evolve itself out of existence and bring in or Usher in

a new type of life form right is it possible I I mean certainly From a technological perspective I mean ask Elon Musk it seems that we're you know we're we're making a lot of advancements right now to augment The Human Experience and given as you said how technology progresses exponentially very quickly in the next 200 years I mean we might be there is this sort of conversation being had in the government about what these things potentially are I not to my knowledge and I sure hope not because I don't think the government This is a

conversation this is where I go back to this is a conversation that involves a lot of people you know whether it's your your priest or your Rabbi or your Imam or it is a your philosophy teacher at the University I think I think we're getting into an area now that is beyond National Security and I'm honestly Joe I'm not comfortable with my government taking that aspect on because frankly I don't trust my government to manage what I Should think about something tell me what is I'm okay with but don't tell me how to think about

it don't tell me how to process that you know because now you're now you're overstepping your bounds it's also other human beings the government is just human beings right and human beings shouldn't have this insane knowledge and keep it from other human beings well in fact it's it's not it's illegal especially in our democracy they're this type of stuff is supposed To be discussed with certain members of Congress and certain elements of the executive branch and when somebody I don't care if you're in the government or in a religion or anything like that this goes

to the to the fundamental pillar of of something that that agrees me which is corruption now when I say corruption uh let me let me backtrack a little bit my father recently died this this uh last Father's Day not this one but the one before and um I had the Privilege of of knowing he was sick and so we took a road trip down to Miami um about a month and a half before he died and he never told me he was sick but but I knew something was wasn't right I knew my father for

a long time and something wasn't right he started losing weight and I could see he wasn't eating as much and there were telltale signs and he didn't want to tell me and I asked my father almost almost flippantly I said Dad I think we're probably somewhere by St Louis and I said dad what is the greatest threat to humanity to humans what is greatest threat now I say flippantly because I'm thinking you know terrorism right and this and that my father thought for a second he looks at me he sayson it's corruption and I said

what do you mean corruption like like like Financial corruption governmental corruption he says no corruption at its heart is when you are willing To bypass your own moral code your own ethics for something else and whether it's it's Financial corruption religious corruption governmental corruption or even moral corruption what when you start to compromise on your own values it's a very quick downward spiral to to utter chaos and I he knowed that Firs hand because my father was in the Bay of Pigs invasion he was a a political prisoner of Castro he actually fought with Castro

against Batista and then When Castro went communist my father joined with the folks here and the friendly Folks at the CIA and was part of the invasion of the Bay of Pigs he spent two years in Castro's prisons being tortured um so when he came to this country this country offered us opportunities that no other country could or would and the reason why Cuba failed was because of corruption and he said look corruption will be the end of all and And if if it's a very quick downward spiral with democracy that if democracy becomes corrupt

you now have tyranny right and so every time someone in the government is willing to compromise a little bit on the value of what it means to serve the American people and they forget that they become corrupt and that actually erodes the very essence of what democracy is and what this country is about and that is why it is so important that the individuals in our government That don't want to have this conversation and don't want to talk to Congress and are making the unilateral decision on your behalf and the American taxpayer in my behalf

that's wrong they don't have the right to do that there is a process of rules and laws we have in this country that we've all agreed to we're going to abide by and that includes them and they don't have the right to bypass that even if they think they're doing it for the right reason I Disagree with that I think I think this democracy only works because we all agree it works right and the moment you begin to compromise on that all of democracy is at risk and I mean that sincerely it it it's not

a it's not a a slow downward spiral it's quick and you can hit rock bottom very very quickly and the only reason why this government works is because we all have faith and and a commitment to what we consider are the American values and and serving the American people and you know for the People by the people so I think it's very dangerous when when elements in the government and I want I don't want to villainize the whole government because government's full of great people they do great things they keep us safe so I'm talking

about the minority few some of these people who have actually gone after me and will probably continue to come after me to try to discredit me and everything else despite the volumes of Documentation that I have in my possession and others um because they don't want to have the conversation and they they they are happy with the status quo and to me that is a greater threat than any UAP could ever have on Humanity it's it's the greatest threat is how we perceive ourselves and what we are willing to do to keep this a secret

in violation of the commitment and and and what we have done to we've sworn in some cases to uphold the values of this Country and I think um that's a concern for me and that's why I don't want certain elements having this conversation of what this means you know the big macro level conversation because I don't think they're qualified I'm not qualified I know that I'm damn sure they're not qualified either so this is why I think this type of national level conversation is so important at the end of the day it's not up to

me people say Lou what do you think you know the hell What I think doesn't matter what I think what matters what you think here's the information here's the data you figure it out don't ask me for what this means because I'm not entitled to that I didn't I didn't earn that privilege and I would definitely never take it away because that is that is that is sacred that's you that's up to you to decide for yourself and this is this is part of my frustration with this overall conversation because there are elements That don't

want you to have this conversation well said Lou thank you very much man thanks for being here I really enjoyed it really enjoyed our conversation Joe this has been fantastic and truly truly an honor and privilege you have one hell of a responsibility you are you are look I got to tell you I don't ever get nervous doing an interview you were the first one and probably the only one I will ever have been nervous coming in just simply Because not because of me because of you the responsibilities you have on your shoulders to have

a communicate you reach a global audience people are listening to this conversation right now and by the way they're part of this conversation very much so right that is an enormous responsibility you have a voice in some cases that exceeds presidence the technology you now have it available to your fingertips and and this wonderful staff you have You are influencing the world and I can't imagine that type of responsibility I mean there are world leaders that don't have the voice you have and so for me it is a profound profound honor and privilege to be

with you here today and your your your wonderful audience um you know if I never see you again I I wish you the best of luck you are you're doing America a great service be honest be candid speak your mind that's all I Can say as a you know little chicken here in in in uh in the United States um you you've got big shoulders man you got a big weight on a lot of responsibility on your back and I mean that sinc freaking me out man telling you but thank you very much thanks again

I I really appreciate everything you've said and I appreciate your everything you said about disclosure and how important it is I I couldn't agree more Joe it's been my honor and privilege sincerely my Honor too thank you very much thank you all right bye everybody [Music] [Applause] [Music]