Gary Halbert’s Long-Lost Copywriting Secrets

[Music] Welcome to the private Halbert tapes. Copyriters Gary Halbert and John Carlton are widely regarded by most direct marketing experts as the best guns for hire in the world. On June 11th, 1997, direct marketers Joe Polish and Terry Hunterfeld hired Gary Halbert for two full days of intensive consulting about their information selling businesses. John Carlton joined the session for the first day. Joe and Terry locked both Gary and John into a hotel suite at top the Southeast Denver Marriott where the session you are about to hear was held. Warning, these tapes contain adult triple XX

real life language. If you're easily offended by militarystyle hard-hitting conversation, please don't listen to these tapes. This session was recorded only for the private use of Joe and Terry. Only after the session was complete did we realize the tremendous wealth of secrets, techniques, and methodologies that these tapes contain. These tapes have had some slight editing, but in order for us to properly convey the content and impact of the sessions, it was not possible to edit everything. As Outrageous as he is, Gary reveals frank opinions in these tapes that he would never say in public or

in seminar setting. So again, these tapes are not for the faint of heart. So with that warning, fasten your seat belt and hold on as your direct marketing beliefs are taken on a roller coaster ride by the king of direct marketing copywriting, Gary Halbert. Hello, this is Joe Polish, the most brilliant marketer on the planet. Um, here today with Terry Hunterfield, Jim Fleck, John Carlton, and Sam Fishbine, and uh, eagerly awaiting Mr. Gary Halbert. So anyway, this is our first tape and we're just going to babble about marketing. So stay June 9, 1997. June 10,

1997 in the Marriott Hotel in Denver, Colorado. So anyway, welcome. Hello all of you listeners. Mr. Hunterfield, you wanted to speak. Yes. I wanted to talk to Sam and to John about what they each see when they're running space ads. Sam, do you do direct mail too, which is space ads? Direct mail. Direct mail um TV. Basically, the difference between what you do when you do a direct mail piece and you when you do a space ad. And what are some of the when we've all read the same books and we've all listened to the

same speakers and been to the same seminars. What are some of the unique things that you've developed the kind of your favorite things, your favorite techniques, the favorite things that you like to use in your business when you're writing ads, either direct mail or placing a space ad? It's about five questions, isn't it? Yeah. Right. All right. Well, we'll start with direct mail. And of all the advertising vehicles we use, that is the most Powerful by far and the one that I use the most because the total advertising cost as a percentage of sales is

about half of what it is compared to television or newspaper manual. And the the crux of the direct mail that I use, the majority of it is to customers that have already made purchases in the store. And the hooks that we use on every direct mail piece. The the key elements for every direct mail piece we use are a special invitation that's private for them only. Personalization. Personalization. Yeah, we personalize every letter. We use first class postage. How much more does that cost by the way? The personalization. Couple cents a piece. It's almost negligible. Yeah,

it's negligible. First class postage. We always put a return address without identifying who it is. And you tried you tried bulk rate too, right? Yeah, we tried bulk and it dropped response significantly. Even pre-sorted first class drops response and we tried different size envelopes, different colors, tried stamps versus indisha. Yeah. And Indisha will drop it too, right? Yeah. Indisha drops it, which is all very important, right? These are all important things. So you'll use all live stamps just like if you're doing Always use live stamps because uh you know the old story that Gary always

tells when you get your mail, when you come home every day, you make two piles. one pile or the one you're going to look at and the one you're going to throw away. So, you want to be in the pile that's going to get opened up and that's how you get open up. Now, when you do like a 55 cent stamp, would you use two stamps like a 32 and a 23? Would you just do like a single 55? I don't think anybody's tested that. Well, we did that. Gary and I did that. We did

a program for a dentist. I don't know if Gary talked to you about that. I'm sure he did cuz it took a big part of his life. But the first mailing we did, we did $120,000 in subscribers off the first mailing, we used two 32 cent stamps. Did you mail that pitch? Yeah. Did you also mail the one when he was talking about doing the seminar at C where it says, "See how shitty the weather is in in whatever Arizona?" Cuz that was personalized. That was one of the few letters I've gotten from Gary in

a long time that actually was personalized. So, I thought you might have been behind. Yeah, Gary doesn't do a lot of personalization, but I use it in all our letters by name. We always have a free gift that we give people for coming in. And we try with a free gift and without, and the free gift always enhances it. What are the free gifts normally? No, we give them a rug. We have little throw rugs that are handwoven. They're seconds, leftovers, that kind of thing. And then uh we give out silver platters, serving trays. We've

given out a set of Coke glasses, nostalgic just for showing up. Just for coming in. Yeah. So you always you always have to have something that's just for coming in. No purchase necessary. We also have a drawing for a gift certificate. Okay. So the majority of your marketing is designed just to drive people into the store and then the sales people, right? Take it from there. Okay. Yeah, with different offers. And I don't know how these would relate to anything else, but we always give our preferred customers an extra discount over and above what the

general public would have to pay. And we have special finance offers and like I said, free gift certificates. Don't your sales letters, don't they have a story? They have quite a story with some of them do. The ones that work the best really don't have as much of a story as if you come in, you're going to save so much, it's going to be incredible. You know, that kind of thing. But you did have some breakthrough newspaper ads back with the stories. Well, some of the stories again switching over from direct mail to newspaper. Newspaper

I focused on single products which is now a trend in the industry by focusing on one item where normally you'd see a newspaper ad for furniture and you see a thousand items on one page. They try to cram everything they've got in the store on the page. Where I started advertising one single item and would flood the store with customers because this item was so incredible. And we sold a lot of those, but we sold a lot more of everything Else cuz people figured if that was such a great deal, everything else in the store

was. So everybody in the country started copying that with a promotion called hot buys where you take one specific item and you give that item away at a ridiculous price and you romance it in the ad. Tell people how great it is and the curiosity draws a lot of traffic. I don't know how that would relate to what you're doing. Oh, it it does relate. Yeah. Now, that's a that's a greed like Gary says, you got to reach out of the page and grab him around the neck and drag him in, not let him go.

That's a good principle to understand is the single item issue that works with cataloges. People send out cataloges with multiple items. And we found out that by going back and occasionally going back and just selling one item, finding out what your main best item is, and focusing just on that, that you can increase response. The idea with catalog people is that they get trapped into thinking they're a catalog. It goes back. Yeah. They think they have to show everything. Now, if you look at a lot of the new cataloges that are coming out, the more

sophisticated ones, you're going to see one or two items per page where they're focusing more on single items rather than trying to throw up everything they've got all at once, which confuses people. What I have found with doing like any type of catalog mailer or any type of mailer that is offering, you know, multiple items for sale and you have an ad in there, you mean? Yeah. Or you buy one page in there or something? Is that what you're saying? No. No. Say for instance like a u to give you an example in carpet cleaning

the suppliers send out catalogs of all the different chemicals equipment little Hose reels uh little wands and hand tools and all these different things that they sell. And the whole catalog philosophy is you've got this piece devoted to many different the package. But getting back to uh focusing on a single item, what you can do is take a single item and target a specific crowd that you want in your store. In my case, to sell them other things related to that. Like once we ran a promotion on leather where we sold a sofa, love seat,

and chair for $1,499. And we sold a few of those, but we sold a lot more of the $3,4,000 groups because we targeted people who wanted to buy leather. And once they saw the one for $14.99, I said, "I want to spend a little more and get something a little nicer." So, um, bait and switch. Not really. We had all the $14.99 they wanted to buy and we left it up to them to decide whether they wanted to buy it or not. But bait and switch. Call it benign bait and switch. Well, you know what

I was going to say, just so we'll have it on the tape. The thing I did with the suppliers, carpet cleaning suppliers, is what I explained to this one particular supplier that when you send a catalog to someone with multiple items to sell, instead of their focus being on one item, it's now on a hundred items. And how do you like focus in or hone in just on a couple of those? Well, you do it with a cover letter. So, I wrote a cover letter for this guy for the same catalog he'd been sending out

every month. And when he added a cover letter with four items within the catalog, go to page 12. Go to page 18. Go to page 23 with their special items on each of these. I wrote a cover letter for him. One-page cover letter and in a little insert with four items that were In the catalog, but specifically making attention to those particular items. He did $20,000 in business extra than what he had been doing just from adding the cover letter to the catalog and focusing on those items. So, what I tell people is like, look,

if you're going to send out a pitch with many different items, at least put a cover letter focusing on one or two because that's the problem with cataloges is they've got someone's attention span is not on one thing anymore. It's now on a hundred and that's not specializing anything. The key is you got to hit them between the eyes with one or two things, right? Because they won't spend the time to go through a whole catalog. People have too many time constraints. The research we had on cataloges, the people that did the research, that took

the time and the money to do it, found that often there were half a dozen products out of the hundred that were carrying the weight of the entire business and they just weren't aware of it. And really advanced cataloges will portion out the space in their cataloges according to how much money that product is bringing in. There'll be one page with one product, a lot of copy for one particular item, and then other pages will be split up into eights or even, you know, 16s or something like that. That's only a lot of different ones,

but they know how much space they need to sell the maximum number of that product. There's a point of diminishing returns where it does in more copy isn't going to sell any more, you know, filler things for something. So, it only needs a little bit of a blur. But say you're selling a major item, then you want to have one page. You want to devote a lot of time to it. It has to be an intelligent choice. You can't just randomly pick four things out of there. No, it has to be an obvious value or

else people gloss over. The example I gave at the time we sold the sofa love seat and charity for $14.99. The cheapest sofa you could buy at the time was $2,000. The market's changed considerably since then. So when people saw that, it just hit him right between the eyes. The unspoken thing in Sam's advertising is you're getting a better deal than anyone else. You have been singled out by getting this mailing and you're one of selected few and you're going to come in and get a better deal. You're going to get better service. You've had

a lot of success with the special times, right? The doors are only open for you and 4 hour period only. You have to come in during these four hours and if you don't it's over. How often do you do that? Every month. Once a month. Once a month you have the special hours. And who's invited? People who have made purchases in the past. Your whole list? Yeah. How big is your list? We keep it down. It's actually got 70,000, but I call it down to 30,000. We have a lot of people that just come in

for their free gift. And you have a hot list, too, within there. Yeah. And we're going to break that down even further. You definitely need that. You should do the referral program thing. would work so well for you. What about you, John? What in the last few years, what insights do you have as to what type of copy you like to write? I have some clients who have an interesting way of doing things. I will typically write a long copy direct mail piece that will go out first as a direct Mail piece and then they

take that same piece and turn it into a magazine ad and run it almost verbatim. The only time it changes is if it's personalized. You can't personalize in a magazine. So sometimes the headline has to change or sometimes if the ad say had a grabber on it then you can't use a grabber in the magazine. So you have to change sometimes the the headline but often the copy will go in verbatim as it went out. So if you got a 12-page letter that will often come down to a three-page magazine ad. So it's radical thinking

for a lot of people to do multi-page magazine ads. But I have clients that have been making this work. The reason people don't do multi-page magazine ads is because of the cost. salesmen at magazines and even in newspapers think in terms of a page or a fraction of a page and you won't even find it in the rate cards how much multi-pages are. They don't know about giving discounts for it and things people just don't do multi-page ads very much. We found we've got an enormous response for it and we're running in national magazines both

in small markets and in very large markets like the golfing market. So, if you can take the hit, which is you're talking about a large amount of money, it's worth not trimming the copy or just taking what worked in the mail and putting it straight into the magazine. You're perfecting a sales letter first and then putting making sure. In fact, what these clients found, they actually did a little research and they found that a direct mail piece sent as a test to the list of the magazine they wanted to go to didn't have to break

even to be able to be a successful insert in the magazine that if they got 90% of break even, they would come back a time and a half or two times in the in the magazine. Yeah. The magazine ad pulls better than direct mail to targeted lists, which would mean like if you're selling bass fishing equipment to bass fisherman than the and you want to go into a bass fishing magazine, then that's a very specific target as opposed to narrow your focus with a magazine as opposed to going to a whole market that's interested. Exactly.

An interesting thing I've always thought about is why car ads, a lot of times major car companies will run the same ad in Time magazine that they will in Car and Driver. And I think that's just idiotic because a car and driver reader is going to be predisposed to read long copy about a car. Why not go into some car loving lingo and really talk it up with what you got with your new car? Run a different ad in Car and Driver than you've run in Time magazine because Time magazine usually with a much broader

audience that just, oh, there's a car ad. They weren't expecting it. They just come off with something else. Car and Driver, they bought it because they like cars. They're reading about cars and they're going on. So it's important to know what your idiom is. Yeah. Your audience. So, what's interesting, we're going to do some tests with Gourmet Magazine and The Wine Spectator because we found that people who subscribe to those entertain a lot and they want their home to look nice and they spend a lot more money on furniture than the average person who does.

So, that's going to be more of a How did you find that out? Through research with a guy that I know in Richmond. So, we're going to go after that market to narrow down and focus our marketing strategy rather than, you know, we do a lot of television advertising. Obviously, that's a buckshot approach where we hit the whole market and it's very expensive. So, we're going to try to minimize that and go more into the direct mail by category as opposed to spending all the money on television. What about writing your letters, John? What are

some of the techniques you like now as far as writing? Again, it depends what you're going to. If you're in a targeted audience, you can get much more I call it ID to vow letters. It's like it's just you and me, buddy, and and we're talking about something that's really close to both of our hearts and that you can really let go in that and write. Gary Halbert actually made the phrase muscle writing which means you get down and use a lot of jargon and talk very intensely about exactly what you want to talk about

which if you're dealing with somebody who you are just bringing up the subject for the first time have you ever thought about buying this particular product you know something like that then you've got to keep the cell going a lot you've got to bring the person in and very gently know exactly what you're doing as you're coming on and if you come on too strong you may lose them if you come on too weak you may lose them whereas the person who is already interested in what you've got again taking the the bass fishing thing.

If you're writing about a bass fishing product to a guy who came from a bass fishing list, you can just jump right into it and start talking about it. If you are branching out and saying to try to find the bass fishing market within the wider population, so say you're writing to people who subscribe to Sports Illustrated, you don't know if they fish or not, then you've got to take a whole different tact. So, there's a different way to write for each one. But basically, funny you mention this. I've been talking with Gary quite a

bit about this. I don't Know how to how to put it exactly. You have to fall in love with the product. If you can't care enough about your product that you can work up a frothing passion before you sit down and write, then you're probably not going to connect with the people on the right level. You need to go over the top. Not over the top sales-wise, but over the top just falling in love with this product. And sharing the urgency comes from a passion rather than a sales technique. It's a subtle difference. You can

sell a lot of stuff with technique. In other words, you can write very fast. You can say, "Well, I'll just take this ad that's already worked in this particular idiom and change it over to what I want to sell and change a few words and do stuff." That will probably work. What works a lot better, though, is when you've gotten to the point where you've internalized the writing process. So, you're not constantly thinking about, okay, now I got to sell here. I've got to put some bullets here. I've got to wind up the pitch here,

something like that. Once you've internalize that, you're no longer thinking about that. You can sit back and just let it happen. Which is much more like what happens when a salesman who's really hot is sitting face to face with a client. He's not thinking about, you know, I'm reeling him in doing this. It's an unconscious little love affair that's going on. Love affair. How do you develop your headlines? Is that the last thing you come up with? Actually, it is. The first uh my copy is very long. A 12-page letter is not unusual at all.

I usually start with the bullets because the bullet you break down the essence of what the product is. I call it sales detective work. You have to go in there and find out what the actual sales hot buttons are. A lot of times the people who are selling stuff, say if I had a client who was a car dealer or was selling fishing supplies or whatever, they're often too close to know what the real hot buttons are. And you have to learn how to interview people and look at products and look at them in ways

where you start to find what the essence of the sales pitch is, which and I say bullets, I I often have four or five pages of bullets in my copy. That's because I never leave any of the points out. I never try to guess what the hottest bullets are going to be. I just throw them all in because you never know what's going to flip a guy. It may be something that you think is a very small minor point, but it may be the point that takes him over the top and does a cell. It

might be one bullet that does it. Yeah. Actually, it often is one bullet and you can't predict what that bullet's going to be. It's often not the obvious bullet. So, I start out writing bullets and that is more or less describing the general features and benefits of this thing. This is the essence of the product. And then I go back and I do the beginning of the letter, which would be the reason that I'm writing to you, the whole setup kind of thing. You know, if there's a grabber involved, it would involve that. And then

I finish up the letter, meaning I'm sandwiching in the middle. There's all these bullets. Then I go back and I do the front. Then I finish it up. Then I go back and then it's time to write the headline because then I know what the letter's about and what the one, two, three, or four major themes that I'm trying to get across. And the Headline will often write itself at that point. I know. When I look at your letters, they're heavily bullet intensive. Yes. You probably use more bullets than anybody ever. He's a bullet guy.

I'm a bullet kind of guy. Um, Boardroom Report uh was famous for sending out letters are nothing but bullets. They have the greatest and it's like if you want to do a a reduction on an ad, if you start not if say for some reason you had to start taking pieces of the ad out, you would take out excess verbiage. You you know, you would do all but the bullets would be one of the last things that you take out. In other words, you could say, "I have a product for you. it has to do

with bass fishing and then just go right into the bullets with no intro, with no anything. And and it's just it's that heavy sales pitch stuff going on and you're explaining constantly what the features and the benefits of the product are. And often the I don't have to explain features and benefits. Do I do this? Okay. The benefit is so important. It's such a crucial part of the bullet so that each bullet is almost a little sales thing in itself. And it helps to go to really dig when you're doing the benefit of each bullet

to make it be as expansive as possible to put a thought in their head as they're thinking. Don't assume that they're going to make the jump of what that feature means. Tell them exactly. Be very explicit. How do you break down? Because I think a lot of people I don't even know how to say this or a lot of people get caught between like a half benefit, a halfbaked Benefit. They they'll identify a certain benefit of something but it's really not the true benefit. Yeah. For instance, if you wear this coat, you know, the obviously

the feature would be what the coat is made out of. Whereas the benefit, you're going to look good. Okay. Well, what's the benefit of looking good? You're going to get the job promotion or whatever. That's good. And that's in with the theme of what you're doing. Now, if you read books like Vic Schwab, how to write a great advertisement is in it. Yeah. He has two major points in that book. Have you recommended this book to everybody? I've not even read that book. Okay. That's one of my top two books. What are your top two

books by the way? Vic Schwab, how to write a great advertisement and Claude Hopkins, scientific advertising, my life in advertising, but also John Capable's Ir, but uh the thick one. I forget. I I can't think of the name of it. I'm sorry. Yeah, but it's it's it's the bigger one. Um he's he's written several, but those were those were the three that I kept close to me back when I needed to keep referring to books. But the points that Vic Schwab made are very good. He has one little tiny box in there. I think it's

a quote from Rudyard Kipling, which is Molly O'Grady and the Colonel's Lady. And the point he's making is that everybody has the same wants. In other words, it doesn't matter if you're living in a mansion on a hill driving Cadillacs and dressing very well, making a lot of money, or if you're a washerw woman living in the ghetto, your basic Needs are the same. And it's a point that can't be looked over. You want to be loved. You want some respect in your life. You You want to be comfortable. What? Shelter. Well, yeah. Yeah. Well,

you know, some of the basic things, but he outlines what the basic needs that everybody wants is. And I've internalized that a long time ago because I I just kept doing it over and over again. So, I'm spreading those kind of basic seven wants and needs out. I can't think of them right now off the top of my head. Too much pressure. Like the maz the Maslo hierarchy, right? Drink some water. Uh actually, um well, in the main there's a great book out called Getting into Your Customer's Head. It's a new book I've been reading

and by who? I forgot the guy's name. I'll get it later. I'm getting into your customer's head, right? And what this guy talks about is that when you're approaching your prospect or your customer, there's various steps you go through, of course. But what it boils down to is you have to determine what your customer must have and what's nice to have. And you can actually create your bullets based on that. What they absolutely have to have and what's nice to have and then prioritize it. especially if you're in a competitive situation, prioritize it based on

where your strengths really are based on must haves and nice to haves. And he goes through a scenario of how to do that and how to convert your client and make them almost beg you to want to buy from you based on that. And that's what you try to do with your bullets. That goes back to Mark Twain's quote, which is there's two reasons why a man buys anything. One is the reason he'll give you and the other is the real reason. Often they're not the same at all. Right? The classic one is the Corvette.

A classic Corvette buyer will quote to you all kinds of stats about the car, how it's one of the original muscle cars. It's a classic car, goes fast, it has all this engine power, has a lot of stuff, and he's well aware of its ability to turn heads and stuff. But what it's doing, it's fulfilling a need inside. Nobody spends $9,000 on a car without fulfilling some very deep inner need. Yeah. Basically, and that need, don't scoff at those needs. All of us have those needs. We have a need to be feel a little special.

That's why I always try to make the person feel a little special. There's I I always try to slip in. You're going to get a better deal than anyone else. In other words, that by getting the information that you're getting here, you're going to get treated a little better. You're going to get a little bit of a better bargain. You're going to get something no one else will even know exists. You're going to get it first. Your status will go up. Your self-esteem will go up. Yeah. I uh talk about in these self-defense tapes that

we're selling, it's one of my favorite lines is you can silence a room just by walking in and the confidence will shine out of your eyes like a search light. And it's what people want. People want to feel that they have attained something a little special, a little different. All of us have the same needs. All of us, selfish is too strong a word, but we are basically very selfish. We need to take care of ourselves and our own before we can move on to any other levels. Everyone's life is basically quiet desperation. Nobody has

better than they really are at all times. They're constantly striving for striving. The confidence will shine out of your eyes like a search light. That's a great bullet. Yeah. I've used that or a variation almost every single self-defense letter I've written. I've written about 17. So, not that feeling has to get in there. That feeling of walking in a room and silencing a room just by walking in. And there it was that that kind of John Wayne feeling. It's not It's almost like a swagger. You got to give people the idea that they can swagger

a little bit. Most people feel they don't get enough respect in their lives. Most people feel they don't you guys, you all have little tiny slights that happened to you in childhood or in high school or something like that you harbor. You wake up in the middle of the night, you remember, god damn it, when some bully got to you or some girl rejected you or something. These things stay with us for a long time. No matter how much self-esteem you have, no matter how many self-help books you've read, no matter how a guy you

are now, we're all nagged by these little doubts and these demons running around inside of our heads. That's just part of being human. And most people want to eliminate stress out of their life. And they'll do anything to do that. And they also want to simplify their life. So you want to do that, too. And I think you achieve that in your golf tapes. That's a really good point that gets back to what you were saying when you say save time. The simple way to give a benefit to a feature would be like you'll save

time. So you say this product will do such and such and you can say in your copy thus you'll save a lot of time. Well, that's a simple way to do it. Why not expand on that? Rather than saying you'll save time and lead them to imagine what saving time means to them. Say, so instead of spending an hour changing the oil in your car, You'll spend 10 minutes and you can use the rest of that time to take your kids out to a movie or you can spend that time with your family or spend

that time practicing your golf swing or something like that. Bring it home to them. Give them something that helps them flesh out the fantasy. People aren't as visual as we think. I don't have the imagination. You have to create it. They can't make that jump. In other words, save time unless you tell them, unless you give them examples of what they can do with that time. The basic mistake most people make is you don't even say save the time. Most ads just say you can do it very quickly or something. They don't make the point.

Make the point and make it as many times as you need to make it. And that's why having long copy ads gives you the freedom to make your point several times in several different ways. You may want to have four or five different bullets in there all saying essentially save time but in maybe different ways. So you take four different features of a product and without talking about particular products, it's a little hard to be specific but there may be different ways to say the same thing. Don't be afraid of saying the same thing. There's

I forget what where it was. Most people need to be told things three times before it gets through to them. It's like you tell them it's free. Saying, "By the way, when you come into the store, I'm going to give you a free such and such." And the guy says, "Yes." And you're talking, "By the way, it's free." And you got to say it again a little later. It's free. No cost. Zilch nada. It's absolutely on the house. And it's like, "Oh, it takes a while to sink in." People forget that. They'll mention it once

in a letter, they won't mention again. I mention any major point like that at least three times in a letter. What about the greased skid part? You call it the greased skid? No, it's the uh the greased slide. And the idea of the greased slide is that I write letters with the idea that all I want the reader to do is to read my headline. Just look at the headline. And if I've done my job, he's going to look at the headline, want to read the first line of the copy, and then after reading the

first line of the copy, he want to read the second paragraph. And the second paragraph will lead him into the third and the fourth, and it goes on down. So that once you're in, it's like you've just stepped off a platform onto a greased slide. A slide that has been greased and you're going to just keep going until we get to the bottom. And there's going to be no chance. That's why you got to be careful when you're writing. You need bucket brigades, which is you end every paragraph with an idea that what begins next

paragraph keeps the interest very high. So you don't have any little tangents. You want to keep it so there's no point where they can stop and say, "Oh, I'll put this aside and I'll pick it up later." or somebody interrupts them that they can lose their point of interest. In other words, every page has to end on a split sentence. You cannot end a page without having to go to the top of the next page to finish the sentence. So, you're doing little tricks like that. Just keep going. Can you say that again? You mean

at the end of every page, every page you you continue on the next. You do not end a page with a period sentence or a paragraph ending. Sometimes it'll drive the designer nuts, but uh you always do that. Yes. And the other thing you do uh use at the end of a paragraph dot dot dot going into a subheading to the next thought. That's right. We use a lot. Oh, so please turn to the next page. Dot dot dot no. You might say I've got the greatest and then it'll say go to the next page.

So you have to go to the next page to continue cuz a lot of people stop reading after the simply watch them performed dot dot. Oh, so you're ending the paragraph or you're ending the sentence there, but you're doing dot dot dot into the subhead. See dot dot dot goes into the subhead. Yeah, that's that right. But at the end of the page, look at this. At the end of the page, you see you can't buy saw that but not and then you got to turn the page to finish reading a sentence. So you actually

page. So in other words, you very carefully that's a look for when I get to a full page. I always look for that has the best continuation potential at the end of it and then I'll adjust the margins to do that to make them flip over. It's a constant battle I have with clients to keep going back and work it until the thing looks right. What do you call that? I'm I'm trying to take a grease slide. No, no, that that it's part part of the Greek slide. It's a split sentence. Okay. Split sentence idea.

Truncation. A lot of people use subheads as sort of titles. For me, subheads are either the continuation of a sentence and that's where you get the ellipses. It says right here, in fact, dot dot dot the only way you can get this tape now dot dot dot subhead is to let Chris send it to you free. So, it's continuation of the sentence, but it's also a major selling point, too. Yes. Choosing your subheads is a a very Now, what you had blue subheads, how does that affect the response? That's something the client actually liked doing.

They like to put a little color in. I'd say color is the last thing you should look at to make your letter work. That's a just a little touch. It's a little subtle touch. It doesn't hurt, but I would expect it to get Yeah. Yeah. A lot of my letters go out one color. What how do you choose your subheads? Do you use a double readership path idea or I don't know what that means. Double readership path is that you have your analyticals who want to read every word of copy. You have your skimmers and

you want them to pick up the subheads and follow the subheads and have the subheads tell the story. Nobody's ever been able to figure out what skimmer do. But I have in a 12-page letter often people will call in before they finish the letter. Often by page three. Often they've read one or two bullets. They will call in and there's no way to tell who's going to do that or what. And what I found out is don't worry about it. The skimmers skim on their own. There's no certain way to skim. And the guys who

read, there are guys who read every word and there were guys who will skim, skip whole pages. I've had pieces go out where page two got dropped out at the printers and it didn't affect response. You tell me how that happened. I don't know how that happens. I don't understand it. What about varying the types of stuff that they get in the package? Different sizes, having different pieces, different colors rather than just a bunch of 8 by11. Well, that's something too. Actually, Joe and I had talked about that before. I usually don't put a lot

of recruitment stuff. My basic letters go out with just a letter and then some kind of if it needs a fulfillment device, a fulfillment device. Once in a while, I'll throw in a lift note, which would be a different size, probably different color, but very rarely. Lift notes were 50s, and the 40s, I think it was in the 40s, they figured out the lift notes Would boost response cuz it was a chance for you to take your major benefit, restate it from another point of view, from the president where you focus on one item. Yeah.

So actually you can focus on major things in a letter to get them to go in read. But I haven't found that they've raised response for me. So yeah cuz see I mean us in the niche marketing things I mean some of us are including myself. I mean I fill it up a cover letter with a million dollar or a dollar bill attached on the first sequence. On the second sequence we have pennies glued to the letter. But we have like a green order form, a couple of inserts, a testimonial booklet, another order form inside

the testimonial booklet. another insert that says uh you know warning people off about competitors if I happen to be mailing to a list that's one of my copycats is mailing to you know so I mean sometimes they're getting a sales letter with all these different inserts all over the place and you know like I asked you before including the cassette tape they're also getting a 90-minute cassette tape in there so they're just getting loaded with a bunch of stuff Gary Halbert's here for all those listening on the tape we'll record the entrance it should be

interesting any smoke there's no smokers Yeah, you doing glad you're here. Hi. Captain, how you doing? I'm fabulous. Hello everyone. How are you? Jim Clark, it's a pleasure. You have to dress for this and it's a pleasure. Hi. How are you? Nice to meet you. How you doing, sweetie? Thank you. Do you guys want a couch together? Uh Gary Gary Howard has arrived. Soary, I don't know how you guys plan on doing this, but the way I'd like for you to do it is my way. And what we're going to do is we're going to

give you guys, at least I am, everything you think you want and then what you really need. And I'm going to introduce you to some new things. For the first part of it, would you do me a favor and close your laptop? Thank you. Now, I want to get the correct spelling of your name, your address, your business, and a little bit of history of it. Let's just go with that a little bit. Jim flex, right? It's sounded that way. It's F as in Frank. L E C. Like solo. Like flex. Like solo flex. No

l. Okay. Okay. L E. And what's your address or your business? 1417 Ellisville. B L I S B I L L E. Lane. Shamberg. S c h a u m b u r g. That's Illinois 6193. Okay. And tell me about it. I know you did some on the phone, but Well, it's just getting started. I My main business right now is computer consulting. And what does that mean? I mean, well, I go in to large companies. I mean my clients are the Canadian government, the US government, Ameritech, US West, All the large banks and

it's all mainframe related. I show them how to automate their data centers. In other words, how to get done with software what's now being done manual so that it's done correctly instead of human error. But what you've got now is an information product that you're marketing, right? So, what I'm doing now is licensed Joe's stuff and converted it for the heating ventilation. Let's go back to this. You're still doing this, right? The consulting. I'm just letting some contracts run out. Most of my business has been outside of Chicago, which is shamburg outside of Chicago. It's

been out of the state. So, I've been traveling non-stop for the last 7 years. Don't want to do that anymore. So, I have gotten a company that's only 25 minutes from my house that are giving me two weeks a month to the end of the year. And so, they're paying me pretty decent. I mean, I I make decent money at this. I've got some guaranteed money through the end of the year. So, I'm not taking any more contracts. I've got a government one running out and I've got one out in Phoenix and then that's it.

The only thing I've done is I've just raised my fees twice in the last four months. I'm only taking new contracts. What are what are your fees? $300 an hour. And uh actually the last one I just raised $400 an hour and they went ahead and took it. So went ahead and took it. Now the business you're segueing into is the marketing program for heating, ventilation, and air. And you're going to do it much like Joe does. Yeah. And I'm starting off just like his. Dan wrote the ads and copy also. I have Dan work

into this deal also to write the copy. Okay. Now, have you done anything yet, John? I sent out in fact I Terry your little onepage press release Joe had given me a copy to the realtors and I sent that out to all the trade publications and I got two articles. How many trade publications are there? I've got about 12. Some have hit it right on heating ventilation and air. Some are maybe mechanical consulting or engineering however some of those companies are are this industry. But I've got 12 written down at home. Okay library. Do you

know about how many of these guys there are in the country? I haven't looked recently. When I was first getting all the publications and doing my library research, it was 110,000. That's the number I have written on the same page with my publications. I don't know if that's correct. And businesses. Yeah, businesses. So, we can say broadly speaking, there's somewhere in the neighborhood of 110,000 prospects, right? I think so. Okay. These publications, you've sent a press release so far. Yeah. And can you tell me what that says? It basically says that I'm a consultant, a

marketing person to the heating, ventilation air that I have articles available. They've appeared around the country and of course now they've been published in two. So I've changed that and I put those specific. But you mailed a press release to these 12 publications, right? And you have articles that ran in two publications. Yes. I list like seven articles right on this press release and say for more information, call or fax me. they can choose the articles that they want to use, the topics, and they're all real powerful articles also. So, he sends the press release

and say, "Here are my articles. You can run them if you want because we put contact information at the end of the articles that offers a free recorded message that gets them a free report." That's the only purpose of the articles to basically get free advertising and to build credibility. So, you can have article reprints to insert into your sales letters when you send out the sales letters to pitch your course. It's a onepage press release. I make them call me before I send them articles. Otherwise, I'd be sending out 10, 15 pages to them,

not knowing. So, every person that's called me for articles has put them in, which is two, right? Which two in May, it's going to be four in in uh it's going to be three in June and four in July. So, that's nine that you've gotten from this. Yeah. Not nine publications. Some of them are the same publication doing a different article. Can you give me like a a guess number? Uh I think the one Yeah, I can. The one article is uh their circulation is just the Phoenix area. It's 4,000. Oh, so that wasn't in

the national yet. That one wasn't? No. Okay. None of them have been in the national. Okay. Now, when did these two articles that ran, when did they run? They're issues mail about the middle of the month. So, have they mailed them? Yeah, I've got them right here. Okay. You have those now. Have you gotten any response from them? Yes. Tell me about the response. How much from the local Phoenix one? I think I got about three people called for the free report. Okay. Out of those 4,000 at least their circulation is in their media kit.

And of those leads, no one's bought of the Phoenix of the small. Okay. And from the other one, the other publication is just the western states. And I want to say that the number on that is about 12,000. But again, I could be wrong on that. That's okay. Get any calls? Yeah, that one I got about 20. 15 to 20. Okay. Now, all of these people have gotten a free report. Yeah. And how long has it been since they've had it? They were going out towards maybe the last week of May 15th single standard. the

the last two weeks of May is when they were getting them. The issue was supposed to go out about the 15th. I probably started getting calls about a week later. Okay. Your information product, tell me about it physically first. In addition to these articles, I also have a classified ad running at the same time. Oh, okay. In all of them? No, I just ran that one in a national. How much that classified ad cost? $290. Okay. And how long has that one been out? That ran uh it's same time came out middle of May the

May issue. Okay. Getting any calls from that? I got about 10 to 12 on that. Maybe 13. It was an okay classified ad. It was one we didn't write. It just came with the package kind of. Now the free report that you send out, what's that like? That's 12 pages. You see mine, Gary? Yeah. Very similar. Okay. It's 12 pages. Dan wrote it. I've put a uh green order form in a four page blue testimonial book and the two articles that were going in May. Right away I had them fax me some letterhead. So I

sent out two reprints also with it of the two articles that were Who wrote the articles? I did. And they're just general marketing articles. I just want to tell you that the color coordinates are just great there. The the horid yellow and the You know what? That's a Jeff Paul thing, Jeff. Uh maybe it works. I don't know. Oh, it work. You know what? Seriously, we use You missed the puke green. Yeah, it goes in the colors. I mean, the more hideous the colors, the the better the Yeah. I mean, that wasn't a criticism. I

was just making that observation. You know, there's a woman judge in Miami and she gets attention from all the people that she has to mail to that appear before her and I want to get a copy of it by sending like these daylow orange letters. They're almost phosphorescent. And I was thinking, hell, I'd like to do that. Well, you know what? Jeff did a test once that supposedly using pink envelopes, he got five times the response just using pink envelopes. But anyway, that's off track. Okay. Tell me about the information product physically. Okay. They get

this book to that he's seen my course too. So this is pretty much his course rewritten. Any references to carbon cleaning obviously are taken out. The sales letters have been rewritten. The ads. Sure. Okay. What else they get? And then uh they get the employee handbook which is just some little notes on running a business. Okay. consumer awareness guide, which is the text of what they should put on their recorded message to lead generate. Basically telling the consumers, you know, don't get a heating and air guy until you listen to this message. Okay. They get

a quick cash startup guide, which are four strategies they can use right away. Four strategies to use right away. Thanks, Joe. Believe me, I'm not trying to just put in here. I just uh since I kind of have a couple more years, uh they get a marketing toolkit which is all of the sales letters, ads, and everything that are in the big book are pulled out. In addition, there are some other ads in here from other industries. Yes, the purpose of those things like the marketing toolkit and the quick startup guide to fast cash, there

are also things that many are covered within the main manual, but the reason we strip It out is to one add bulk so they get more stuff and two to hone in on what's the simplest strategies for them to up and run to make it user friendly for them. Okay, they get a consumer awareness video which is things they need to know about heating and cooling equipment which is just a 15minute sales job. That's for their clients, right? Yeah. They would put this into the VCR of Mrs. Smith while they're checking out her furnace or

air conditioner. It educates her on heating and cooling equipment. It's not so much a sales job as it is educational, but that's what it's used for. Okay. And for all the listeners, that background noise is Sam Fishbine is programming Gary's brain. And then they get my coaching tapes, which are six. Five coaching tapes actually are in here and one fast start tape. What's the coaching tapes? The coaching tapes are me explaining risk reversal, explaining referral systems, explaining as much as I could gleam out of any Halbert letters I had, J Arab letters, Dan Kennedy letters,

and and the fast startup page that is explaining the product that they have and what's in it saying get the quick cash startup guide. Go through those. It's basically tells them to lay the product out in front of them, explains each piece, and I use a little bit on there to tell them, tell them a little bit about what's coming down the Pipe, you know, their newsletter. And they get a newsletter with it. They get a newsletter monthly monthly. Nice package. And I've also like in the fast start tape I like I said I mentioned

three or four of the backend products that I've got almost complete and that I have thought of that I know that they'll probably be interested in just trying to reduce a refund based on things that they won't want to miss out on. Is that it? Um anything else in the package? Yeah, you get newsletter subscription. Yeah, we can cover that. I think that's it. Yeah. Now, what does it cost you that entire package, including mailing it out, the fulfillment? Um, well, I've done four of them. I haven't tracked it real well and I haven't mailed

the cheapest I can. Do you know what yours package is costing? Yeah. Yeah, cuz we change them so much. But you're talking bucks for all that? No, probably about 20 bucks plus the video. So, we're looking to be conservative. Let's use a $30 figure with the cassette. I would say 35 to 40 fulfilled. 40 bucks fulfilled, right? Yeah. 2 4 6 8. I'd rather be higher than lower cuz right now my audios are being done very small quantities things like that. Okay. Now, how much does it cost? The basic package is 5.97. That includes everything

minus the video and the things we change are the actual the length of the newsletter subscription. For instance, my basic package is 5.97. My gold is $7.97. They get a 2-year subscription with the gold, a six month with the basic. Same with you. Same. So, it's 5.97 to $7.97. So, $7.97. Now, you have any I've got four. How much did they pay? They were all deluxe. All deluxe. $7.97. $7.97. Yeah. Plus shipping and handling. Is that true? It's a good profit center. Yeah. Make about 10 bucks on shipping. At least I do. All right. Anything

else I need to know? Pays for my rent. I've ordered up a full page ad for July. That's about it. That's going to be 4,900. 4,900 for the ad. How many circulation for the publication? 49,000 full page. Yeah. And I dropped second sales letters to all the leads. Well, not all of them. The ones that are due second based on 15 to 20 day spacing. Anything else? That's all I can think of. Okay. Now if because of today and tomorrow, whatever your dream scenario would be, the utopian outcome, what would that be? What would me

and Sam or John or all of us, what would you walk out of your that would put you walking on a cloud? A little more clarification on some of the things we talked about on the conference call because I know that the majority of my market is not looking at my trade publications. getting successfully to them I think would do it because I don't know whether that's going to double, triple, quadruple the business I do, but the majority of them are not going to be reading the trade. That's true. You know, been proven out to

be too much work or what, but certainly if I came out with that, that would be a big bonus. Do you know why they're not reading the trade Bible case? Just uh, you know, a twoman guy that's got a truck that's going to go in and repair somebody's furnace. You know, not everybody has a big sheet metal shop where they're building, you know, to work and doing commercial work. Is there anything else that you should tell us? If Have If Have If Have If Have If Have If Have If Have If Have If Have If

Have If you asked him if he has access to all the names of everybody in the country, mailing lists. Yeah. I mean, I've got it done in Brad Street. It's got to be because they're on the um yellow pages. He's, you know. Mhm. They'll be available through what is it? Business America business. Business America business. Yeah. There's many sources of these guys just like carpet cleaners. They're available also through suppliers that sell to these guys. There's many list available including endorsed list and things like that. You can probably buy the subscription to the magazine and

buy those people. You know, same thing goes with me. Same shtick. I mean, you got blue color guys out there. Many of them don't read the trade mags. That's why I do seminars because it's way for me to reach guys I can't reach through the trade mags. Let's go through the same exact process here. Okay. Name, address, serial number. Terry T E R R Y Hunterfeld. H U N E F E L D. Uh address 4 Alton A L Real Estate Marketing Group. R E M G. No, I know from talking to you on the

conference call, you market to professional realtors, but let's just go through the whole process just like we did with him. Okay. Sure. What's the first thing that you do? Just Well, I I copy the Dan Kennedy and Jeff Paul lead generation formula. I market in trade magazines. So you run ads and trade magazines. Full page ads and trade magazines. I am in 15 trade magazines. Now there are three national magazines. Today's Realtor with a circulation of 750,000 that goes out to every realtor whether they ask for it or not. You just get it as free

part of your membership. There are two smaller national magazines that are subscription with circulations of about 30,000 a piece. Okay. The largest is 750,000, right? and you get it whether you want it or not. You got it. Other two are by subscription only with a combined circulation of about 60,000. Okay. Then on top of that, each state has its own state trade magazine for realtors. So for instance, I'm a member of the Grand Rapids Board of Realtors, thereby also a member of the Michigan Board of Realtors and the National Association of Realtors. So every realtor

gets two magazines whether they want it or not. It's the National Magazine and one from their state. Well, I'm in 10 states. I'm in California, Florida, and many of the other larger states like Illinois, Ohio, Indiana, Texas now. And so I'm reaching through the trade. I'm in about a million2 circulations when you combine it all. And I'm spending about $25,000 a month for space advertising, lead generation ads. That ad generates calls. My lead cost running that ad run me started out Early in the back in September and October when I Went national, my lead cost

was about $6 to $7. It is now creeping up as the ad fatigue sets in. I've fiddled with the ad only once. I've changed the headline once and I've inserted the photo. But still, I'm up now to around $11 per lead and it continues to creep up. What I do when I get a lead is they get a fourstep mailing similar to what Joe does, the special report. Very similar model. Wait, wait. How do they respond? Call an 800 number. Hear me for 30 seconds giving them another little pinch on how great the system is

and how all they have to do is leave their name and number and I'll send them out a free special report. They can't mail for us. No. Good. My leads are automatically downloaded by uh Concord and transcribed by Concord. We upload them by database every day and the first mailing goes out the next day. I mail them four steps. Okay. Just does Concord give you numbers on hang-ups or capture rate and all that? Yes, my capture rate runs around 75 to 85% depending on the circulation. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Sure is. And the

next day they get This goes in the mail along with testimonials and the order form and uh that they get a similar fix to James. Yeah, very similar. long copy tells the story about me and how I was a failure real estate agent and how I discovered My gold rush system and how it's changed my life. They get one of those every 6 days that I've got them on a 30-day leash for the free bonus gift. So, you order Wait, wait. They get one of these every 30 days. Now, these are people that have no

contact with you except they have your name and address, right? Yes. They read my ad. They called the 800 number. They get the special report. Then they don't get this report. They get three other letters from me in 8 by10 envelopes. And how spaced are those? Every six days for So there's 24 days from day one to the end. There's 24 days that elapse. So you actually send out a sequence every six days. You bet. Step one, step two, step three, step four, boom, boom, boom, boom. Each of them is like they're getting it every

other day after they get the report. They get the report on day one. Then on day two, they get the day two. Wait a minute. On day two, I'm sorry, day six, they get step two. Yeah. Right. That's if they don't respond, they don't respond. Okay. Meaning they don't call an order. They don't call an order or fast in their order. They hit them again in 6 days. Hit them again in 6 days with a different letter. A little bit of a different They don't respond to that. They hit them again. 6 days later. Half

the sales come in after the second. Now, I don't know if it's procrastination. It's the model Dan Kennedy taught. So, I never quibbled with it. I mean, it works. They're a hell of a good We always do it every two weeks. You know, they instead of getting a 20page letter, they get an eight-page letter in step two. Different colored, you know, here's testimonials, copies of published in national trade journals, you know, that kind of stuff. Ironclad guarantee order form they can fax in or they can call. If you get a,000 leads, how many sales do

you end up with? I've got about $18,000 in a,000 leads. Okay. Okay. I sell about 8%. My numbers have been holding real good at 8%. So I'll sell I'll sell 80 systems at an average price point. I've got the basic and deluxe too. About 650 is my price point on the average 80. That's a $52,000 in sales. 650 average. Average, which equals 52,000 in sales. So I'll spend $18,000 on space ad and four sequence follow-up mailings and generate 52,000 in sales. And then you'll fulfillment cost that's included in the fulfillment, pardon me, to send out

all the packages. What does it cost per package to mail out per system that I sell? You sell including the manufacturing cost. Yeah. I'm at about 60 bucks each. So 80 time another five grand. So you got about 23 grand in expenses. Total expenses. Right. Well, not counting. I've got I don't want to get off track here, but because I follow the Jeff Paul formula, we're selling them more than just a system. Let me take Can I tell you what the system is? Okay, system consists of a 10-step quick start guide, a quick start tape.

Realtors are interested in listings. Listings are the name of the game is the conventional wisdom. So, there's a module on listings, a book on listings, a book on working with buyers, a master marketing manual, a couple more bonus books, a video cassettes, consulting certificates, ad and newspaper critique certificates. Most realtors don't know anything about direct marketing. So, we have a support staff there for them. And when they buy the system for one year, they're able to call in using their phone certificates or access their ads and scripts if they're not working. They're able to call

in and get support. And that pretty much takes a couple full-time people, couple three full-time people to handle those calls. And we have them on an 800 number. So, I have more cost than just the cost of the system. I don't just ship them a system and they're done. They're calling back in the office and asking for help. Cuz realtors as a whole are pretty dumb. Okay? When you think about the guy that gets laid off from the factory or the guy that gets laid off from teaching school, what am I going to do? He

gets into real estate. And he gets into real estate under the big lie. The big lie is that you drive around in a nice car, show people houses, and you get wretched. It's a real nice way to make a living. Only when they get in it do they realize they have to cold call and prospect and get rejected and humiliated over and over again. So, my whole system is geared to that pain that they have in prospecting. And I teach them how to use automatic hotline robots properly scripted to reposition themselves as something other than

salespeople, but to position themselves as professional consultants. But it's a big mind shift, especially somebody who's grown up with Tommy Hopkins and some of the big real estate sales trainers like Mike Ferry and Floyd Wickman who teach sell, sell, sell, manipulative closing techniques, objection handling techniques, and all that crap. I'm saying you don't have to do that. If you consult and you hold yourself out as a professional and you help, you will prosper. My 10step quick start guide gives them 10 steps. You do 1 2 3 4, you will make it. We've sold 200 systems

now. Got 2500 members. I've changed lives. I've got testimonials like you wouldn't believe. I give a what I call a $100,000 weekend seminar every quarter. I stole that name from Jay Abraham's milliondoll seminar. He calls the million-dollar weekend. I call mine the $100,000 weekend. I get anywhere from 60 to 100 realtors in there at a,000 bucks a piece coming to do the advanced stuff. So, that's kind of a good backend. That's my best backend. The problem with realtors is that a lot of them are dumb. So I my refund rate and Dan Kennedy cautioned me

on this at the very beginning is that the refund rate with realtors is going to be high because I'd give them total risk reversal. How high is it? 15% of I've never been less than 15% and it's crept up to as high as 21. Is that on the seminar or the package? On the package. So I'm making 52,000 in sales, but I've got 15 to 20% of those refunding. Now I have implemented Joe and I were talking about this. I've implemented. I've never done anything other than to send them a stick letter along with a

system. I've now got a ninestep sequence of a play off on your million-doll bill letter or your dollar bill letter with I'm going to bust my butt for you type of a thing and a testimonial tape and more we're here to help you type stuff. How long have you been doing this too? How long have I been doing the whole system? Yeah, just started about a year and a half ago. I started hitting California and Florida about a year ago and I went national in September. Okay. Now I want to ask you the same question.

What would be the utopian result here if Well, I know what that is. The utopian for me is to get away from having to depend on the limited life trade journal model where I take the space ad and do lead generation and mail. You know, I've not seen anybody make that work on a long time consistent basis. The front end always dies and I'm building my backend rapidly, but it's not building fast enough. I have to get somehow to the other real estate agents who've not heard about Gold Rush. If you went to a National

Association of Realtors convention and said to a 100 realtors, "What's Gold Rush?" Maybe maybe 10% would know. Okay? And that's because they just haven't seen it in the trade journal or it hasn't registered with them. The numbers that I've heard about trade journals in my industry are that 70% or even as high as 90% don't even get looked at, don't get read or get paged through very occasionally. I know a lot of realtors personally, successful realtors in Grand Rapids who never pick them up. They go into the trash can. So, I've got a model here

that works. I've got a system set up. But direct mail to me, if I can make direct mail work, I believe that direct mail can work. I just have never I didn't learn that model. So, if I can leave here with direct mail letters and ideas that I can go back and implement and start testing, buy the lists and test and start testing a thousand here and then I can test a lot and I can test different models and I can find out what works because then I can roll out. I mean, look at my

universe. I've got 750,000 realtors. That's a great universe and I can get their names. you know, it just there's that curve that once you go over it, you're on a slippery slope going the other way. Tell me about your business. Okay. Well, my business is selling to professional carpet and upholstery cleaners and also I'm going into pest control. Okay. But let's get to the yours is about yours is the almost like the original story, right? Jeff Paul is the original story. I'm a byproduct of that. What was his original product? His original product was selling

the certified financial planners and then he went into real estate and then he built a business around how he did the marketing to CFPs which spawned JPDK, Jeff Paul, Dan Kennedy teaching other people how to do niche marketing. So Jeff Paul was the first person. Okay. Okay. But your business is very similar to these businesses, right? We're all very similar. We're very ancestral kind of group. But what else do you do? Now, I know that you're starting to license what you're doing, right? Yes, I currently have my course licensed to the heating air conditioning industry,

the remodeling industry, the floor industry, the printing industry, the accounting industry, the window cleaning industry, and used car sales, where other people are running the business and paying me a royalty off of gross. My main shtick, where 95% of all my money comes from, is professional carpet and upholstery cleaners, where I sell a marketing course that teaches them how to write ads, sales letters, referral generation, how to present themselves, blah blah blah blah blah, how to be better marketers, all based around direct response marketing. And included in our courses, and I'm speaking for everyone, we

don't just sell a book on how to do it. We actually give them the actual sales letters, uh, follow-up letters, referral generation systems, things like that. Great concept really. So what I do is I reach carpet cleaners through trade magazine, send them long form sales letters pitching a basic Course and a deluxe course. I call it basic and gold. Now out of that I have currently sold about 1,500 people. I also do seminars which is a just I don't like doing the seminars. I don't like the travel but it's a very high profit center. I

mean uh the the amount of net that you get out of doing a seminar is much higher than the net you would get selling the same thing through the mail. And in the you know in the last 40 days I've done $140,000 in revenue out of seminars which you know is at least uh about 90,000 net. So you know there's there's a lot I wouldn't say that's too high. That's not 90,000 net. It's more probably around uh 60 to 70. But it's a very good net and but I don't like the seminar. So I want

to reach these people through other means of course which everyone's been repeated but that's not my nirvana. That's not what I really want out of here. To me that would be great to tackle this niche and to make a lot of money in here. But by learning how to do this it leads to so many other things in terms of you know people perceive Terry me Jim whatever is like you know marketing consultants for carpet cleaners real estate agents but but we're mail order guys. I mean, we do mail order and we sell marketing information

through the mail. And once you learn that skill, it can go everywhere. Now, like I was talking about with this other deal that me and Brian K are talking about, taking it to the big infomercial market, the big infomercial guy, doing joint ventures to his list on how to do niche marketing, which creating a product which is not, you know, competing with uh Jeff Paul. Um hopefully we can be friends on that type of thing to where we can endorse each other's programs. But, you know, I want to eventually lead to teaching Other people how

to do mail order, how to specialize into niche marketing, like I'm doing with my licensing deals and in the process pick up more people to do licensing deals with so I can end up getting revenue without physically having to run the business. You know, royalty type of thing. You know, there's there's a lot of things. I mean, I'm I'm scatterrained. I have a lot of different things I'd like to do. I want to make a lot of money, a lot of money. I want millions of dollars. And I want to do that with as limited

amount of ridiculous wasted nonsense in terms of running a business that I can. For instance, right now I've got 50 things going on that that is making me money here, there, here, there, here, there. But there's probably, if I was to break it all down and analyze it, there's probably five things tops. Maybe one or two that are really bringing in the money. But in in the process of doing this, I'm expending so much energy on [ __ ] when I should be focusing on the few things that are bringing in the dough and spending

my energies doing those things. Kind of like what we talked about. You know, you said the majority of your money is made writing copy, but you end up 95% of your time sometimes is wasted doing [ __ ] And you know what the best thing I can get out of this is more on clarification of how to really take a concept and go ballistic with it, you know, and not have so many little things going on that bring in a few thousand here, a few thousand there. I mean, I want a couple of things that

bring in hundreds of thousands and millions where I can roll out with these things. Let's talk about your lead cost. What's your lead cost? It varies on different magazines ranging anywhere from uh What's the average lead cost? I don't Well, what is the average? I had it from the tracking guy. It's I know it's $30 on there's two main magazines. So, let's just go with those. There's two main magazines I go in. One of them my lead cost is $11. The other one is $30. So, if you were to average those two, that means my

lead cost would be $20 between the magazines. Okay. Mhm. Okay. Anything else from anybody? Um, you know what? You you you were talking about something that I think could could turn into something big. Remember you told me to get this information to research dustmite. You had some crazy idea of selling a dustmite detection kit to homeowners or something for like 19 bucks or whatever. But what I'm thinking is, you know, there's not a franchise on the planet that sells a smidgen of what I sell these guys for less than a grand. And if I was

to franchise this stuff, I'd probably make a lot more money than I'm doing selling it like a business in a box or an information product. But then again, I need to set up that structure, get all the legalities involved in franchising, get lawyers and all that stuff. But it would seem that the rewards financially that would come from that are much more so than what I'm actually giving these guys for less than a,000 bucks. Also, my focus is not on unloading information products, but to build relationships and to develop a continuity program. I want to

get a thousand cleaners paid me at least a hundred bucks a month on a continuity program which would generate uh $1.2 million gross per year of which uh a Million would be net because the maintenance cost is so low on that because it's automatic. Ching ching ching. That's where I want to take the business. The $500 package, the the $700 package, I mean, whatever the hell you sell it for, that's just a way to get someone into your funnel. And once you got them into the funnel, what is the best way to profit from these

people? And also not giving so much time. You know, the big mistake I've made is we What's that? Tail. The tail. Get rid of the tail. Okay. Get rid of the tail. Meaning all the consultation, the personal stuff, but at the same time have the relationship there so the money keeps coming in. So you're still tied to them and they're still giving you money, but at the same time you're not spending so much of your personal time. You know, the way Terry does it is Terry doesn't offer consultations. He talks to none of his realtors

one on- one. His support team does that, but he had to build a staff to do that, you know, and I don't know. Wait, just a minute, Terry. If you eliminated that support team, how would it affect your business? Well, realtors needed handholding. So, I think it'd be hard to keep refunds down because we're teaching them a fairly complex topic here. But it wouldn't affect your sales on the front end, would it? Correct. But what it does is it affects the back end and the continuity. I've got a tremendous reputation already um in just Just

a year and I think I can leverage that to be the real estate guru in the country in another year because the system is really good. It's unlike anything else that's out there and it really it doesn't increase sales. Does not increase sales. But what it does with clever copy with good copyrightiting you can you know they don't realize how important that is until they actually have the system. In fact you don't even have it as a sales point support team. Yeah it's in the sales letter. Not it's not in the ad but it's in

a sales letter. Do they upsell when they when the support team when the support team does upsell and they're getting better at that as as they get deeper into that when the when the people Anyway I don't Well um I had this conversation with with Joe about trying to get rid of the tail. Um, have you even experimented not having that or having a substratum of this, you know, selling without the consultation and see how they do it? Have you tried it? No. You believe it reduces refunds or you know it believe you believe it.

You know what though, Gary? I'm just I'm just way I would without having hard data here, I can't imagine by not offering it that that it would not increase refunds dramatically. I mean, so many of our upsells, our boot camps, our additional orders are made by people calling in for Help. I look at every phone call as an opportunity to sell something. What if you ju just this is just sparing ideas and we're doing you want to keep this as a parent. Yeah. Yeah. That's I just want What if you what if you instead of

holding their hands and doing this, what if you gave four seminars a year, cost them money to come, but it was a handholding seminar. you come in and you said these are the hundred or the 80 or the something top questions we always get and this is the 80step way to go from taking this from understanding this to actually implementing it and you take care of those and you do it in the weekend rather than holding their hands constantly throughout throughout the year and they get a chance. Let me mention something I think will help

CL let me let me kind of finish it because it does have a point. I'm not just saying this just to just to talk. See what Terry does differently than what I've done is he has every week he on Thursday he does a a teleconference where that's where they get the opportunity to talk to the gurus. So every week Terry does a 1-hour teleconference, but it's not just doing a teleconference because you could say, "Yeah, that takes away Thursday. You know, you're going to have to spend an hour of your time plus preparation and every

Thursday of every week of the year, you're going to be tied to this teleconference." But it's not just consuming his time because he takes the teleconference, has it transcribed, and that becomes data for his newsletter that he writes, and he can reference it for the newsletter. So he's simultaneously creating product. Yeah. He could have it transcribed and and create a damn book, you know, because a one hour. He is doing this or he's not. Oh, yeah. You bet. Are you the one who talked about they pressed button one, two, three? No. No. That was Jeff

Smith. No. Is Sam aware of that yet? No. Let me tell you. I I'll sketch it and you guys can fill it in. How about this? Is slick. Guy does conference calls, got maybe 200 people on it. He's got a guru on the call, you know, impresses everybody. And then at the end of the call, it says, "Now, if you really like this and you're ready to proceed right now, press one. If you're thinking about it, but like more info or something, press two. If you're definitely not interested, press three. The people who set up

the conference call immediately capture the name and telephone number and all the data of those people and they have salesman calling those. If you're a guy who pressed one, within an hour after the conference call, a sales guy is on top of you with that. That's pretty slick, isn't it? Oh, and they did it so well that they made the people call and get on a conference call, but they couldn't ask questions because it was now recorded. They recorded. It's like you're calling up to listen to a 90minute pre-recorded message, you know. It's Well, they

they were letting them ask questions, but they were just telling them because there's so many of them. They were just queuing them up. If you have a question, press a button, you know, and we get to you, we Yeah. And the queue thing would come back saying there's a lot of cars on the line. You'll be your call will be taken in the order of which whatever, which they never got through. And of course, if there's a system breakdown, he said, the guy says, "Well, the first thing you should do, the first thing you should

Do, the first thing you should do." I I have a question for you. This this is obviously based on somebody hung around Jay Abraham and got this throwing everything but the kitchen sink kind of idea, right? Directly related. Well, piling on comes from Dan. Piling on. Yeah. You know, Dan teaches a lot. Trust me, it's Yeah, it's Jay, too. Who decided on this price that you're selling this? I've tested the three different prices. I've tested for the deluxe 577, 677, 777. That price works good at 677. Nice conversion rate of 8%. Did you test 20,000?

No. Let me mention something in reason why. Uh you got to understand that that we all come from a teaching from like Dan and Jeff where it obviously it works and so we do it. Now we haven't wandered too far off to test $3,000 packages. Should we? Yeah. I mean, I've even thought about taking my whole course and breaking it into modules and instead of selling people, you know, a $500 upfront thing, just go right into $197 membership and pay 100 bucks a month in a yearly renewal. We don't do yearly renewals. Here's the way

I look at pricing. And I I think it's a little different than a lot of people do. How soon can what you learn bring back what you're paying for this information? In other words, if it cost $10,000 this information, are you going to make it back in two weeks? So, if you can make a good case that you're essentially making A small investment, you're lo you're renting this information for 2 weeks and you're going to get your money back. I mean, what kind of statement can you make that makes sense that that is true? If

you're going to give them information and stuff that they're going to get it back so quickly, start thinking about what kind of within a month or two months or what, whatever makes sense that they're going to make that money back. So, the price is no longer relevant. The price is merely the price of getting on board. It's a ticket for the ride and once they're on the ride, it comes back. I love that you're renting this information for one month or two weeks. I mean, that's really that's it because you're talking about $10,000 of initial

income over the next 12 months, right? That's that's that's a great finance these guys. Oh, well, we all do installment plans. I do half now and half in 45 days. Terry probably does the same. What we also do after the Do you take a credit app from them or No, no, we just take credit cards. Just take credit cards and and you know, I don't have serious problems with declines. We have a few, you know. Well, the other way is you take your credit after conversations. A year with no payments and no, you get a

year to pay for it. You pay me a year from accept the chaos. How many more would you get? Just just trust it, John. I'm in a box, aren't I? Yeah. I'm in a box because I I copied a model and the model's worked. And so, I'm just in this little box of this model that I was taught and I'm not breaking out of that box. Yeah. You're not You're not Yeah, but you're not doing anything wrong. It's a good box to be in. You know, money in that box. What you what what you may

want to think about is go ahead and set up your own competition under a different name, a different corporation or maybe the same guys a different thing. Offer a such a totally different package that nobody will say I bought this. I mean, maybe you can have buy guys buying the same thing. It can be the same information packaged differently in a different way and and call it the gold deluxe whatever type of thing and construct it. The way I would construct it according to my comfort levels is there would be almost zero tail. And you

you don't understand what I mean by tail. Mhm. This program continues with tape two. Tell me, yeah, you're doing service afterwards. The consultations, the phone calls over the next 12 months, I will meet with you every time you can come. That's tail. Anything that after they after you got their check and you cashed it in, anything after that is tail. Terry, let's let's go. Let's talk about you because you have pretty big and and accurate numbers here. Let's forget your tail for a minute. It's cost you about 10 bucks a lead, right? Okay. So, Terry,

a,000 leads is $10,000. It cost $8,000,000 to do it. That's $18,000, right? All right. And you sell how many packages? 80. So, my cost is 225 per sale. I'm sending No, hang with me a minute. You sell 80 packages and the package cost you $60. What's your average sale? You told $650. $650. I'm going to make it 600 that you make on it. Okay. 600. Yeah. His math skills are Yeah. 48,000. So you spend $18,000 to take in 48,000. And that's after fulfillment. Before fulfillment. No, fulfillment's included in there. I get plus50 fulfillment. 18,000 is

before the cost of fulfillment. Oh yeah, but that's in there. It's 10,000 plus 8 is $18,000, right? And $60 a package is 4,800. Oh, yeah. I see. I just off over here. But if you want to do it that way. See, I just bought He sells. Okay. I just did it by I I'm faster. So I'm faster. Okay. So, you spend $18 grand in advertising to net after the cost of fulfillment $48,000. Yes. Count the tail though. Wait. Yeah. Wait a minute. We're We're not to the tail. So, that means that not counting the tail,

not counting refunds, you spend 18 grand to do 30 grand, right? To net 30 grand. If nobody asked for a refund and you didn't have to do anything else, you would spend $18,000 and you would net 30 grand. 30 grand. Yeah. You would debt it. Yeah. Five and a half, which is pretty good. No, actually, John, it triples because that's the one that grows. No, he he doubles. It's I'm triple. Well, yeah, that's right. With the 18. Yeah. Okay. So, you're tripling. Let's pretend that you stop right there. Well, wait a minute. Because you don't

stop there. These 80 people, how much more money do you spend on them per person to wag the tail? You mean for the tail for the support? Yeah. You got the support team, your 800 numbers. You figure 100 bucks per person. So, you're adding eight grand. And that sounds really low to me. Yeah. Is it phones? Yeah. Cuz you got people there. the the newsletter subscription alone will probably cost you 50. Mhm. And then Yeah. So I would I would say per person though. Yeah. Per person two years out all the [ __ ] you

send them big thick newsletters now 32. This is what I can tell you is that when I'm spending $225 per sale like we're just talking about it's costing me $225 to get every sale. I make good money spending at 25 per sale and having that overhead that I have and having that system in place that makes me good money when I'm selling 300 or more a month. When my sales fall below 300, you know, now my overhead and the profit starts getting squeezed. I got to keep my sales at 300 more and I'm making good

money. I hit 400, I'm making tons of money. The model isn't the problem. My and there may be things we can do here and and raise prices and do things. What I got to do is keep my sales up. I keep my sales up at 300 or more. I'm in that city. I can go off into a million different directions. Still, we want to explore a lot of things and we may not end up going down those paths, too. But I want to know what's your overhead per month with the employees and stuff. Let's suppose

that you did this and outsourced all of it. You know, somebody did the shipping and everything. Yes. Then you wouldn't have that overhead. But you do have the overhead and that's not necessarily But what is that overhead? And when I ask for numbers, if it's anywhere close, the number is good enough. Generally within 50%. What does it cost per month to run your office? Let's say you didn't sell a goddamn thing. How much money? near no advertising. An easy way to look at that is when I do 300 sales, if I bring in 200,000 in

a month, my overhead is probably including everything, including ad costs, shipping, I mean everything. You take the cost of advertising everything, it's around 150. I mean, half the cost of $150. I'm making somewhere I'm making somewhere between 30 and 50 grand a month right now. But let's take away your ad cost. So, you have no sales. Just what is it? Well, ad cost is 25,000 a month. What's it cost to follow another 25,000? What's it cost to keep your business open with if you stop that stuff? What's your salary, rent, and uh uh how much?

That's high. That's your nut. I don't know what your What is your nut? You got 30,000 a month in salaries. Jesus. 30,000. You got rent. Rent, telephone, all that. Telephone. Nice. 40 grand a month. I bet it's turn. I bet you're talking 70 80 maybe 100. Okay. Well, does that sound right? Mhm. And you take in an average of 180,000 a month 300. So if I'm um bringing in 200 and making 40, that's 160 and 50 of that is advertising everything else. The nut is 100. You're right. Yeah. Mhm. No. As long as the numbers

stay up, the nut's not a problem. Very astute of you to realize about the box, but you're still thinking in it. That's really funny cuz I haven't dealt with a lot of guys who started out with a really tight model to work from. And it's both freeing and that it gets you from zero to going 30 m hour down the road really, really fast. Well, you got to understand that's the hard part of getting going. Wait a minute. You guys want to go 100 miles an hour. You don't want to go 30 miles an hour.

You know, while you've jumped past the hard part that most people have to get through, which is going zero to anything, you've gotten by that really fast. And this system really got you going there. But you got to get out of that system if you want to go as fast as you guys want to go. And you guys want to go real fast. And this system ain't designed to do that. Uhhuh. See, one thing we got to remember, me and you and Sam, if we end up consulting with you guys 5 years from now, it's

going to be very different because you will probably 5 years or 10 years be closer to where we are cuz how the [ __ ] do I get rid of this [ __ ] But right now, you got to understand, John, they wallow like pigs in [ __ ] with this [ __ ] It's okay for them to have support teams and employees and all kinds of [ __ ] cuz they like it. So, we don't have to take it away from them. Well, if someone can show me without me having to be a world-class

copywriter, which I'm not, nor do I have any desire to be. I'd rather hire copywriters, how to make millions of dollars with no staff, I'm all ears. Eliminate the tail. It's what Ross Perau said. You see, another thing, for instance, you take someone like Terry who's really gone gang busters with this type of thing. I mean, how many of those Jeff Paul Dan Kennedy books have been sold? Over 50,000. Thousands of the courses have been sold. 70,000 books. Okay. But the fact is the amount of people that actually ever make this thing work are far

and few between and we're all friends with each other. And so, you know, there's tons of people out in this world that want to get rich in mail order that never figure it out. And I I mean, I think I agree with Ben Suarez's statistics of it's probably not as high as he states it, but like one in 70,000 people ever have any success at all in mail order. That's kind of high, but you know, most people just don't figure this out. You know, Suarez wouldn't have figured it out if it went for me. He

started out working for me. It's the interesting thing about Suarez. He was bound and determined that his product was going to be a table of interest rates. And I bludgeoned him until his first product was an astrological product. And he ended up with the largest, the American Astrological Association, the largest in the world. But by God, after he got rich, he published those [ __ ] interest tables in one of his books, you know. And the fact is, you know, I look at it like something like Brad Richdale. You know, Brad is not as savvy

of a marketing guy as like someone like Dan, who in my opinion is a very, very bright marketer. However, the application of his marketing knowledge has allowed him to build a company that last year did 100 million in sales and this year will do 200 million in sales just because of the proper application of the marketing. And so that's all I'm looking for. I'm looking for, you know, I got I got stuff. 200 million a year will satisfy your polish. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead. Yes, it would. It would satisfy me. Let's go with

10 million a year, Sam. I'm grossing 200,000 a month. In the good months, I was grossing up 250,000 a month. Okay. Coming down to the bottom line, my net after everything is never less than 20%, sometimes 30%. Now, in a business context, that's not bad. It's wonderful. That's great. So Sam's here running a furniture store. How many employees you got? So why am I in a box and Sam isn't? I'm not being defensive here, but I'm trying to understand. So Sam has a wife, Leslie, who takes care of all that. And he's forbidden to go

into the stores. Sam doesn't even have a secretary. Sam has no employees. Leslie has 170 employees. And also, we're talking at this point. You got to get used to A lot of times when we're talking, you will hear us ask questions and you might think the answers make you look dumb. We don't look at it that way. I mean, we do more dumb things than you will in all of your life combined. And in fact, I will do I will make the mistakes that I tell you not to make and everything. But we're going to

just bounce really off the walls here before we narrow in, right, on on what we're doing. Well, one of the things I do really well, Gary, is I follow instruction really well, which is why I'm here, which is why I succeeded so well with the Dan Kennedy model. I didn't go off and not do it. I didn't try to invent my own wheel. I did it. I applied my special knowledge to his model. You know, I'm going to make more than a half a million dollars this year. Well, that's great. But you guys are saying

now I can do it with less stress, without a staff. I'm all ears. We're just talking. We're just talking. We're asking you questions. You You know what a good example is? Is Robert Allen. He was making a million. He didn't have a lot of people. He was selling information. He wasn't doing any any backend as I recall or any tail. And he just went the other way. He got a huge staff and we went down there touh consult with him. He had this new product put out that he wanted to save the world. Wasn't that

was literally what he wanted to do. He wanted to save the world. And he was hiring all these people and he' taken this beautiful thing that was just cruising along making them buou. Yeah. First thing you need to know is you guys are doing nothing wrong. You just need some other things to do, right? Along parallel things, you know, right? My whole thing is I'm working too hard for the amount of money I'm bringing in. I bring in good money, you know? I mean, I'm I'm doing anywhere From 70 to 100,000 a month. I should

hit a million this year, but I'm working way too damn hard to do it. I need to just cut some of the stupid things and focus it on the things that actually make money and just duplicate myself. What are you doing? It's too hard. He's all over the country on an airplane doing one day seminars and he's making good money on them but he's locking himself up in the silver tube once a week. Yeah. About every two weeks. And and I've got a business to run. So it makes it difficult. I got a staff. Joe's

delegated very little. I've delegated a lot. I've got a system that runs without me while I'm here. Joe's requires more hands-on. Yeah. So you look at Terry's selling four times the amount of stuff I am has a staff that's four times the size of mine, but it's more systemized. So, a lot of the ways this type of stuff helps me, the brainstorming, this is clarification on how to actually manage my own life because this is management [ __ ] It's not marketing stuff. I mean, you know, some of the last things I need is another

marketing concept. It's more of a clarification of the knowledge I already know so I can do it better. Did you work for a living, Terry, before 20 years in real estate? Working for someone else? Oh, well, as my for myself as a broker, not out of an office. Then you're working I worked with people for 10 years in one of these RE/MAX type offices where you, you know, rent space or share expenses. Three years ago, what would you have considered was good money? 3 years ago, I grossed $350,000 and about $150,000 of it came to

the bottom line. So I netted about 150. Yeah. But what would you have considered good money if if you said 250,000? Joe, what would you consider good money? Back in my Oh, I would probably have considered 100,000 a year very good money. Now I considered [ __ ] I mean, if I make less than 30 grand a day, I'm like irritated. I'm making a same consulting business. If I hit 100, I you know, so sometimes I go hang out with some of my friends and they'll be talking about somebody. They'll say, "So and so is

really making good money, blah, blah, blah." And how much is he making? Oh, he's up to 20 bucks an hour, you know, or he's pulling in 50 60k a year. You know, what your concept is, you remember how hard it was when you first went out, how hard it was to break that $30,000 a year barrier. Remember how hard it was once you broke it? Did you ever go back and earn less than 30,000? You remember how hard it was to break $100,000 a year once you broke go back under that again? Remember how awesome

that seemed to actually make that and how you thought that making a million dollar a year just seemed like an an inconceivable amount of money. Okay, when you guys talk about we're making good money. I hear that it's not limiting but it's work a day world thinking. You know, you don't know what good money is. You really don't know. You don't know. All you guys know is that you're hungry. You know, something's missing. You want to bump it. You're not quite sure what it is. I have no idea how much I make an hour, but

I remember talking to some guys who finally got up to making $100 an hour or something like this and they're figuring it out. Why think about how much you make an hour? How much you make an hour is irrelevant. Wouldn't you rather make just huge amounts of money and maybe no hours at all, you know, work one hour a year. Wouldn't that be great? You know, so don't think about it in terms of an Hour or even money really. It's it's lifestyles. What kind of lifestyle do you want? Do you want the backup and what

what's it going to take to fund that? That's what I want to do because Terry has a thing. I even put this on my computers. you know, the screen saver that flashes across it says, uh, money without quality of life is useless. And I agree with that. It's not the money I'm looking for. It's obviously there's a benefit buried in my mind of what I think money is going to do for me. You know, I want an enjoyable life. I'm a freaking workaholic. And the habit I need to break is to just flat out quit

freaking working so much. But at the same time, I want the money. For about 3 years, I was taking off 6 months a year. I was working for 6 months and taking off six. Now, I wasn't making as much as I was making before the first couple years. And then suddenly I started bringing it back up again. And then I was still taking off a lot of time, working a couple days a week. It was a mindset. It's a mindset. I wrote a book a long time ago in 1980 or something. It was called Money

Love. I think it's been long out of print. I don't know who has the rights to it. I never saw it again. But the guy made some very very good points. It's like stop thinking about money as poo poo. It's not keeping score. It's nothing. Money is only what you can use it to do what what you really want in life. If you're using money to keep score, then it's fouling every other way you think about it. Money is this ephemeral thing that is just passing in and out of your life. And actually, this guy

had a kind of a Buddhist theory that the more money you spent out, the more it would come back to you. You would think of sending your dollars out into the world to go out and gather other dollars and come back. And so, you stop thinking about Money in terms of most people in America think about money. It's a whole different uh you know we have uh our some of our sales people after they make a sale they sit down and calculate how much money they make right and those are ones that never do well

and they never do well and the ones who never even think about how much they make are the ones that are at the top all the time that's why you start think about what your course is worth. You haven't sat down thought about what it's worth. How are you changing these people's lives? What would have been worth to you when you first started in real estate? $5,000 easy. It's worth $5,000. worth every penny of $1,000, you know, and I feel the same way. I just always go back to you're not your own customer. That's probably

a self-defeating belief. Meaning what I created and what I sell to these guys is exactly what I wish had existed when I first got into the business so I didn't have to go through all the crap that I went through in order to take my carpet clean. I write to newsletter. I wish had it existed before I started writing it. You know, you're opening up two more stores. I mean, what's your goal? Is it a money thing? I mean, what's your motivation for doing that? Die with the most toys. Yeah. No, seriously. I mean, look,

let's go on to the next level. We get bored very easily when everything levels out and nothing happens. We want more excitement in our life. So, the way you do it is add more stories, more kids, hire more people, have more problems. Yeah. But then this time last year, you were seeing a different uh that's something great. Sam wants to make enough money to afford to take time off and hang out with Dennis. That's root canal. Well, how old were you, Gary, when you first actually felt like you were kicking ass with your marketing business?

When your ego grew to the size of I was about 31 when I didn't know what to do with the money. How many years of struggling living off credit cards, all that [ __ ] before you actually hit something? You cracked the code on one of the things. Um, they didn't have credit cards back then, did they? No. How the hell did you live? Um actually I got out of the service. So I did that and I worked and I got divorced. Once I started studying marketing, it probably took me six years. You know, I'm

going to give you the end of this. I shouldn't should I? I should make him like this is gravel. The [ __ ] perceived value goes down if you solve it early, right? We need a computer print out. You got can you print some [ __ ] out where I don't know just just print some data out or something? No, we need to we need to make this more difficult. Let's see. Uh Jim, um what's what's your do you do you feel do you feel by doing that cuz you always do it? I mean, I

don't always most time I've seen you do it. But I mean, do you do you feel That the impact is better taken if you go through loops in order to figure this [ __ ] out or um Well, in reality, it depends on who I'm dealing with. I already gave up a goodiz contract this week to be here. I heard you on the conference. No, no, I want to answer that question. The sharper the people are, the less they give a [ __ ] about how long it takes you to give them the solution. the

people who just like Karen how much I mean if a guy I've had guys pay me enormous amounts of money 30 grand I go in there and talk to them for 20 minutes and they are happy because they're players and they got the key that they want. The lower the level you are you know it it's like information. It's like some people value information by the pound. There was a guy had a little mail order ad said illustrated encyclopedia of sex. Remember that about this big. And then there was another one, Math Made Easy. And

he sent these out of copyright books, but they were big, thick books, so everybody thought they were getting a good value. You know, what you guys want to achieve your stated goal. It's just like clear as a bell. It's it's really you're a sales letter away from doing that. That's all you need, all three of you, is a [ __ ] sales letter that plugs into the system. Let's see if that's true. Okay. Now, let us say that you mail to 1,000 realtors. That's going to cost you, and you can just take my word for

it, between $400 to $600. But let's say that it cost you $500. All right. Okay. 50 cents a piece. That's a good number to start with. Mhm. Okay. The only purpose of this letter is to do the same job that your ad does, right? and that's to make those people call an 800 number. That's the only job of this entire letter. There's no odor coupon. There's no reply envelope. There's nothing. They wanted to hire me to hype the city of Las Vegas one time. And they gave me every kind of document. You talk about people

that got their [ __ ] wired. They know how many people come in by Greyhound and to the penny how much those people spend. They know how many people drive in and what they spend. and they know how many people that fly in and what they and I could not figure out any way at all to do a better job than they were doing. What I told him is I can redirect the flow. You know, I could make more people go to the Sahara than go to the sand, but I couldn't come up with any.

So, right now, and I'm talking to him cuz he's got the numbers mostly, but it applies to both of you. And truly, you're back in not that it can't be improved, but that's not the problem. I mean, if you were getting 10 times as many leads from the magazines at the same cost, you'd be happy as a pig and [ __ ] You know, you probably wouldn't be sitting here. You know what you need is more of those calls, more of those people entering into the funnel. Yes. Now, we're going to save the conversation about

your tailto letter. We're going to put that on hold. The consultants and your overhead and all that. We're going to pretend that you're in the mail order business and that's it. I mean, you're in the you send me your money, I send you this mail order business because I believe I can put you in that business if you want to be in that business. If you want to be employee intensive, we can do that, too. All right. Now, let's talk about the direct mail. Your average sale is how much? $650. Cost much for you to

fulfill? 240. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just his hard cost was 60. Okay. We're going to add $10 shipping handling or shave your cost or some [ __ ] thing. So, it's 600 bucks. Okay. All right. So, you make 600 bucks a sale, right? Now, if there were no lead cost, you'd have to make one sale to make a profit. It cost you $500 to mail a,000 letters. You'd make after the cost of fulfillment, you'd take 600, you had made $100, one sale, right? Where do I go from here? Tuesday. Now, what's your

conversion rate for your leads? 8%. 8%. So, that means that you would Let's see if he has 8%. We're going to we're going to change that figure, too, and make it 10%. Okay? Cuz that could probably be achieved if if we reworked your letter and stuff like that. But, let's say it's 10% conversion. So that means that you would have to get 10 people to call you. Am I right? 10 out of a hundred. 10 out of Wait a minute. Out of a thousand. You'd get 100. You'd get a hundred. But we're talking about the

original thousand is a lead generation ad. That's right. That's going to bring Yeah. But I'm talking about to get one sale to get one out of the calls. If it's a 10% conversion, it takes 10 calls to make one sale. Right. That's right. Now, here's our task. As impossible as it may sound, you need a letter that you mail to a thousand people that makes 10 or more people dial a free telephone call. Right. I need to get a 100 people to dial the telephone call and 10 of those to buy. No, he's talking about

break even. Break even. No, you don't. No, you don't. No, no. Let's go over it. Let's go over. You get 10 people to call and 10 people at a 10% conversion. Mhm. is one sale. So 10 people call out $600. Cover the cost of the mailing. You cover the cost plus. But I've lost money. No, you made 100 bucks. But I've lost money because of the overhead. We're not factoring in any overhead there. That's true. We're not going to factor that in for the moment. The way when I look at it my way, I'm spending

right now $225 to get a $650 sale. Mhm. And I make money at that if I'm over 200 sales a month. Why can't we look at it that way? We can we can look at it that way. But let us segue up into that. Okay? So I want to make a point to you. Let's go through what happens. See, first of all, if you had to make that many sales because of your overhead, we just mail more than a,000 letters. All right? But now let's talk about mailing a,000 letters. And all we're going for is

telephone calls. Right? Now, I don't know how many telephone calls we can get from mailing to your realtors, but I'm going to be astonished if we can't get 3%. I'm going to be astonished, right? And I think you have a shot at getting 7%. We're talking about free calls. That sounds about right, doesn't it? So, let's say it's 5%. 5%. Now, here's what that means. You spend $500 and you get 50 calls. and one out of 10. And that's five sales. Five sales. Okay. Now, go through the numbers with me on this. Right. There's a

$500 mailing cost. Mhm. If you take out your fulfillment, that's $3,000 for your initial 500. But see, here's the really important factor. Here is the killer factor on it. The killer factor is the universe is so much bigger. Let's just go through this without your overhead and then I'll let you factor it in. $500 to mail a,000 letters. We take in 50 calls and we make five sales. And on those 50 calls, I have to mail out a fourstep sequence. Okay. How much how much does it cost to capture the name and mail the four

steps to the 50 people? Another 500. Another 500. So now we got a,000 in it, right? We make 50 sales at net after fulfillment of 600 a sale. Right. Five sales 650 that Okay, that's $3,000 after we subtract the $3,000, right? So, we subtract the um and $300 for the packages. 60 bucks a piece, right? No, we deducted that. That's good for round figures here. Okay. Okay. So, what do we got left here? We got 3,000 and we spent 1,000. So, we made $2,000, right? Mhm. And we made five sales. Let's put that over here.

And how many realators are there to mail to? 700,000. Okay. Now, so we multiply this by 700 times 2,000. Time 2,000 0. I'm wrong. It's not worth doing. It's only uh 1,400,000. It's a joke, guys. [Laughter] And 35 initial sale. And that's on the initial sale. But not only do you have a service cost on the initial sale, but you also have a backend on the initial sale. Now, let me Tell you something that ought to get your juices flowing. You should be mailing a letter to these 750,000 people at least 10 times a year.

10 times a year, you should be doing that. We get the kind of percentages that we're talking here. Sam does, I do, John does. When we're selling stuff or higher, sometimes we get 10% selling stuff. You're not selling anything on that call. A free telephone call. So, the first overall recommendation I have to make to all three of you is the essence of simplicity. You should be doing direct mail. Now, the numbers can vary from what I told you, but if it works at all, you need to be doing it. It doesn't have to work

better as what you're doing, although it will. I believe it doesn't have to work better. It doesn't have to equal it or anything. It's just if it works, you put that on automatic pilot, too. That's the one thing that you need to do. That's just right off the bat. Now, got that. I'm mailing post-it note things right now as we speak. Uh post-it notes attached to a full page address. No. Did you just start getting any response? Um, I don't know the numbers yet. I can call in my office and see if we know right

now. How when did you mail? Last couple weeks. We got the leads. I can tell you what the leads are. I don't know what the conversion would be yet. Well, what we really want to know is what the leads are. Yeah, I can call my office and find that out. And you're sending the carpet cleaners. Is that it? Yeah. You look puzzled. I mean, are you puzzled? I I'm pretty good at doing numbers. You know what's hard for me? I get lost in the thing like the cost the cost invol Yeah. I've always hated numbers.

It drive me up the freaking wall. And that's what sucks because numbers business. It's all you're in. It's all numbers. It is all numbers. No, don't get not that I'm I don't want to know it. It's hard to follow. It's just hard to follow it. It's just hard to follow the [ __ ] But where I am is is when I do the numbers, I look at my 225 a sale, which is what I'm paying now, as my flagship. If I pay more than 225 a sale, then I'm getting into the danger zone. But at

225 a sale, I can make a good profit. Mhm. So when I do these numbers, and I calculated it at 65 cents a letter, you know, 10 cents a name and the first class mail, and maybe that's a little bit on the high side. If I got an 8% conversion off the letter, now I sent out the first letter, the lead generation letter. If I get 8% on that letter, and then I sell 8% of those, not 10%, but 8%, my cost per sale is going to be $216. Bingo. That number works. So That means

I got to get 8% on that letter. So, what I need is a letter that I can send out to these $700, start testing with $5,000, 10,000, 50,000. I need a letter that can get me the 8% response. You got the letter. Where's the letter? Right under that file. This the letter's in here. You talking the lead generation letter? No, you don't have There it is. 6 months and I've known this [ __ ] for six. Why haven't I nailed that? You haven't made this turn and nailed it. Duh. Duh. Why would I do that?

That's too easy. Well, if you double space, you'll get eight pages out of that. I can blow up the 14 point and get 20 pages out of it. This will be this will be a four page letter. Yeah. You think? Oh, yeah. It would should be should be a letter and it should be a tear sheet. It should test them both. Well, actually, you should mail out about eight different versions, right? What's going on? Yeah. You need 10 letters. Yes. Look, one Okay. He kind of threw out some really I think kind of pertinent information.

Joe, you talked. No, actually you didn't. Listen, Jeff Paul, he does not do lead generation post notes anymore because what he found is is you would get the same lead conversion. Meaning, you know, people would call, he get very good leads, but when he sent the sales letters out to people that were generated through the mail as opposed to people that came into him through the magazines, the sales worked in the magazines. The sales didn't work through the mail. Who is this guy? Jeff Paul. Why? Who the hell knows? Uh, he's Dan's partner in the

JPDK thing. I distrust everyone's numbers except my Well, I've refused to believe it because if I did, I wouldn't be generalized. I wouldn't be doing this right now if I like took that as So, you're saying that I go through this with Rodeale and people like this. Rodeo refuses to have phone calls. They you can only order Rodale products through the mail and they make it work. Like I said, they're they're a billion dollar company. They do very well. But I asked them, I said, "Have you ever tried phone numbers?" "Oh, yeah." They said, "We

did a mailing. We put a 800 phone number on it and response dropped. Now, I don't I don't know. Maybe they don't take credit cards either. Yeah. And so, I'm not sure what the deal is, but I'm thinking to myself, I'm sitting here and I'm reading this letter and I'm turned on. I want this book so bad. I can't wait. I get to decide now, how can I get it? I'm thinking, "Oh, damn. I can call or send this thing in. If it was just sending the thing in, I would have bought it. But since

you're giving me a choice, ah, I'm out of it. I'm throwing this thing away." I don't understand the mindset that goes to this. I don't understand how that number could work. Maybe it's true that putting the phone number in did make it work. Part of this is science though. I I understand, but part of this is science and part of this is intuition and part of this is just trying to figure it out from little scraps of information we get. And a lot of it is psychology. And nobody can explain to me how that could

have happened. How by adding a phone number option is going to drop response. I just don't get it. I don't understand how it's going to work. And the reason you don't understand it cuz it's not. So it's just like numbers we got from Phillips. They're not true. It's end of story. They're just not true. So, I don't know who this guy is. I'm sure he's very bright and knows what he's doing. I would say probably though he is right that there be a higher conversion rate from somebody reading the real estate magazine than there is

from direct mail. I would say that the numbers are right. But I want a targeted audience though. Let's let's not get off this. There's one easy way to find out though. Test it. Yeah, you you should test it. But but just think for a minute. I mean, let's let's get this straight. Remember, we were talking before I brought up about the difference between mailing a thing on fishing to fisherman as opposed to mailing as the guys who read Time magazine. If you're going to mail a letter to real estate guys, that's the same pool that

is going to be reading the uh not not exactly. There's active real Estate and then people who are not really active and reading you can get that list. You can get that list too and you can probably get it by the amount of income too. Oh yeah. Do you know what the average income is of the person that buys your course? No. You can start specializing in your letters. You can just mail it to people in Cleveland, Ohio. You can say special deal. Make them feel special. Make them feel they're getting a deal no one

else is getting. Make them feel they're part of a special deal for Cleveland people only type of a thing. Yeah. Special deal that they are in on something. You got to start thinking as a con man, too. You can't just give them this open-ended kind of, yo, give me a call sometime. It's like this is a special opportunity. It's a little window of opportunity. You may never get this letter again. This is a very controlled mailing. You know, you may see this letter again, but you know, chances are you won't. If you put this letter

aside right now, the odds of you remembering where you put it and picking this up and doing this tomorrow are about one in a thousand. And if this opportunity slips to your hands, you know, you're going to lose out on changing your life on taking your hectic, unpleasant life right now and changing it in a very, very short time to having more money, to having more freedom, spending less time to being one of those guys that get talked about in awe. you know that, oh yeah, that's one of the legendary real estate guys in Cleveland

instead of being one of the schmucks who's just barely paying the rent and driving a 10-y old car. But you better do it right now. You better get in on this right now. This is only a few people ever get into this club. If you really get that going, you can do things like that to up the response to uh Well, Before we go into something else, I want to talk to you about telephone calls. On that conference call, we were talking about phone calls and you guys playing around with making phone calls. You make

phone calls, too. Yes. Talk to me about the phone calls. Well, there's no structure to it. My brother follows up with Lee after they've been on the sequence for between two or three. He calls the people that have not yet ordered and basically it's not even really scripted. He just asks them a series of questions. You know, did you get matters? But what's the he sells a few thousand a week worth of courses? If someone equal to your brother were doing that also along with your brother, what would happen? we'd probably make more sales. So,

in other words, your brother makes x amount of calls, does he not? Correct. And if you had two brothers, both equal, you would make more sales, right? Yes. Okay. Now, so why don't you have two people doing it? Same question. Why am I not mailing out more letters? Why am I not doing a lot? No, I mean, it's I can ask myself management problems. You hold on. You could double completely distracted there. I'm sorry, sir. What would you What did you say, Sam? No. You feel right now that your people can't get unless you're there.

No, no, no. I'm rarely even at the office. Very little supervision. Okay. So, they can handle a lot of things without Yes. And they do. My business pretty much turns without me there. Okay. Does it turn very effectively? No, not really. Considering there's like zero leadership now. Do you make telephone calls? No. And why not? I spent my time writing. He picked up No, not not you personally. But why doesn't your operation make telephone calls? Just started. You did just start. Yes. And how long ago has was last week. Last week. Yes. They're doing it

right now. They're developing the scripts and they're making the calls right now. And I know that's going to increase response. The reason we haven't done it is because I was busy training them. It exploded in September and now we're finally over the curve. I say, "Okay, I got to get sales up." Now guys, you're trained. I'm comfortable with you on the phone. Start calling them. We uh selected a whole group and we're going to test that. We're going to be able to statistically compare in a month the difference between people we did call and didn't

call. What would happen if you personally made all the calls? I would probably double the sales from 8% to 16%. You know why I haven't done the calls? Because it's so damn easier to send out a sales letter that sounds good than it is to teach a a live human being how to do it. But anyway, that's my answer. Okay. See, and the companies that fail or the way the people work for you are managed. That's all it boils down to. And what you guys are concerned with, you can sell all that you want. It's

just what happens after you sell it. Putting everything in place. How do you do that? Like somebody like Dell Computer who grew from nothing to a gigantic corporation, what do they have in place to manage all that? It's very technical and very complicated. And what we're talking about is very simple compared to that. Good point. So how do you manage your people? By staying away from chains, but who I mean there has to be leadership obviously and there's ownership obviously. What it boils down to is each person in a company is forced to take responsibility

for what they do. How? You just say, "What do you think your job entails or what is it going to take to get your job done?" They enumerate it and then after they enumerate, say, "Okay, now that you said this is what you have to do, you're responsible for making sure it gets done. It's not up to me to make sure you get it done." Most People wait for the owner or the boss to tell them what to do next and how to do it. And then once you stop telling them that, they stop doing

whatever they're doing. So you've got to reverse that and make them take responsibility for what they're doing. And of course they have to get rewarded for taking responsibility too. Otherwise they don't want to do it. How they get rewarded? Well, they have bonuses based on net profit or whatever they achieve or whatever they get done. Those kind of things. Once somebody has something at stake in what they're doing, they'll work harder at it and they'll learn how to make decisions on their own rather than in most companies and we had this problem too many years

ago. Everybody sits around and waits till the next edict comes down or the next decision or the next process or the next program and what you got to do is get them to do it on their own. I power helps you do that, doesn't it? Oh yeah, that has helped tremendously and opening their minds to start thinking about that. How long did you use power? About 3 years. Joe, is that what you told me that Reports was using? Yeah. Well, they invented it. But they invented by using it in their own organization. Yeah, they started

in their own organization. They grew from like 20 million to 120 million in two or three years. one book on the subject. Yeah, there's Yeah, there's a book you can buy. We go by the tattered cover or Lesie might have some extra copies. We've got to power. It's just called Power. Yeah, you you really can't implement the program by reading it. Ken does a class on it. I have the You give tapes. I'm I'm not interested in learning. I'm uh the theory is behind it. That boils down to giving people responsibility or opening their minds.

And like Gerber says, you got to work on your job, not in your job. And that's another thing you have to do is get people to start working on their job and not get mired in it and listening to what somebody else tells them to do. They have to think about now if I did this this way, how much easier it would be, how much cheaper, how much faster. You got to change people's mindsets from the way American industry is set now. And unions have caused that too. In a union, nobody does anything outside the

box or outside the rules. They know there's all kinds of differences. You get punished if you do it. So that shuts everybody's mind off. nobody thinks and there's no progress made. So until you can get people out of that mode, you're really not going to get anywhere and you're going to have find a hard time expanding because you can sell all you want really if you want to cut loose, but you're afraid of doing that cuz you don't know what the end result's going to be once it starts. You're afraid of the total chaos. Well,

seeation level right now my numbers have gotten so high that uh it scares you. No, in terms of it's the amount of time that the people coming, Calling, phone calls, if I can't respond to your service is going to hell is what happens. We've gone to different levels of sales where we said this isn't worth the [ __ ] anymore. There was so much aggravation, so much grief and 14 and 18 hours we said we can't take it anymore. It's the same process whereby when you start out you can make every call and you can

go down to Kinkos and Xerox everything and send it out. At a certain point that becomes impossible and then you have to move to a certain point. You have to delegate it and leverage it or else you go crazy. But but there's also levels above that. I mean you start chunking up. Pretty soon you're a corporation. Pretty soon you don't even know who's answering the phone anymore. It's not a matter of trying to find the right person. You got to find the person who's going to hire the person who's going to hire the person who's

going to hire. You can't get involved in that anymore. You're going to be totally detect. Can you imagine somebody like Jack Welch who has 400,000 people working for him and he's Hey Gary. Yeah. How many people does niece Wonger have working for him? Do you know? No, not very many. No, not very many. And he makes I don't even know. Does he sell million appraisal thing? Yeah. Well, you haven't worried about uh how many people did Rick Dwonger have working for him when he was pulling in 20 mil a year or whatever he was pulling

in. Not very many. And he had very little tail, if any at all. Well, see, he was an expert at calling it down to the least common denominator with the least amount of people to get it done. This is relevant because he was very I I learned a couple things from Rick Nissan. One, it's possible to make a lot of money selling information products without having a large corporation. And two, this is a side point, but he's he's the guy that told me he says he just pays all his taxes and he says he sleeps

at night. And that was important. A lot of people would like certain people in this room would like to fight the IRS for every cent he thinks. That's fine. If that's the way your mind works, do that. Me, I'd rather pay it and use that extra time to go make more money and sleep well at night. sleeping well at night. You don't want to have all these diversions, right? It fits in. Noner's idea of his lifestyle was more important than doubling what he was making by bringing in a lot of people and a lot of

grief. That the grief factor was very very important to him because the way his business ran according to to the grief factor. Absolutely. So, John, you've seen you've seen and you've known a lot of people in the direct marketing this type of business. Correct. Um, and and you've seen some models where people have used direct mail without a tail. I was going to finish my point. Direct mail without a tail. Tail. I can't remember if I brought this up this morning or not, but there's a famous story that I like and it happens to be

with with J. Abraham and it was the year that he made a million dollars with these seminars and at the end of the year he found out it cost him $900,000 with Phil and he got sued. I mean it was it was you know you know he just paid 3 million. Hey, hey, what the difference between Jay and Niewongers, you know, Jay had that thing of pilot on, pilot on. And what he Started piling on to bump up to paying 30 grand to come to a seminar was personal attention, personal this, personal. Tail I I

looked at his pieces, 90% of it was tail. And he paid a very dear price for doing that. It consumed him, consumed his life, consumed his business, consumed every waking moment and sleeping moment of his life. And then you got Rick Nisswonger who just kept going the other way. What is this decision going to increase the grief in my life or decrease the grief in my life? Yeah, Wonger did it gradually. He did it from selling one-on-one to selling to big crowds in an auditorium to the videotapes to where he simplified it each step of

the way where Jay goes the opposite direction gets closer to the one-on-one where he has That's true. That's a really good point. Yeah. Well, you asked earlier for a confusion. At the time, I had a question popped into my head because you guys were talking about the direct mail and getting the 5%. When I took over this HBAC from Joe, it was already written. Another guy tried it a little over a year ago. Part of it was I got I think 80 leads and I simply took a cover sheet saying, "I do we dropped the

ball due to change in management and blah blah blah. we're giving you an opportunity to get in on the first this first I don't remember how I word I sent to those 80 leads with just my full page ad and out of those 80 I got four which is 5% and two of those bought the $800 package. So what's the question there? Well no I was thinking cuz you're talking about different direct mail. I mean I I was simply sending out my full page ad. You know probably a buck a piece. Oh no. Those were

only 32 cents cuz it was just two sheets of paper in there in the envelope. But would it even help to throw in a cover letter to all the cold m even though it's not true? They didn't request Wait a minute. How much did it cost you to send the letters? Probably 35 cents. I don't know. So that's a total of what? Was that 20 bucks? Okay. How much did do you make in sales? About 1,500. Well, [ __ ] that. Yeah, I quit doing that. I don't do that any reason I did that was

I'm just saying I did that to the 80 leads I got and basically what I was thinking is that's cold cuz I mean they're well over a year old. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, that's Yeah, they were just following with the numbers you were saying. And I'm just saying that the blind leads as if these guys are thinking when they're reading this they must have requested [ __ ] a year ago. Yeah, I'm just saying here I was just giving it out cuz I got some data here that actually worked. I know. We

just wanted to make fun of you and really you guys are dealing with a specific audience. You have specific information for people who are doing something that will benefit directly from the information. In other words, if I'm a ditch digger and you're going to show me how to have a better shovel, okay, that's better than trying to sell a shovel to just people, you know, to just general people. Part of the job is done for you by the fact that your lists You're going to buy are very specific lists. So, all you want is names.

And then once you got the names, if you got what Jerry was talking about, the means to process those names in an effective way that I call it raping the but I want to address because that is very important what he just said. It's almost like you guys are going through maybe because of some indoctrination whether or not to use direct mail. Obviously you should be using direct mail. Obviously I mean the idea that you should have a model and the model's profitable so you don't do anything else that's insane. Obviously. Well, I think we're

all here to shorten that learning curve because I think we all agree on that. Okay. And I agreed on that before I freaking came here. The thing is what you're telling them is what they really need to know and what they're 20 years away from comprehending. These people need to be battered. So, let's teach them how to achieve their admittedly ridiculous objectives. These guys want to make a lot of money, have a lot of employees, and blah blah blah blah blah. you know, they should be thinking about listening to classical music, you know, driving around.

They don't know that yet. So, let's just improve their business. I have to interrupt you. We do want to learn how to simplify going to edit this. We do, but that's not that's not within the format of what we're doing here. I'm going to tell you guys some things and we're just going to try and string it together later on. Okay. Okay. This is not direct mail 101. This is direct mail 101. The number one way to increase response to a direct mail promotion is to mail to a better list. Simplest example of that, let's

say that you have a product you're selling via direct mail to nurses and by mistake you get a mag tape with names of secretaries. You mail it to the secretaries instead of the nurses. For the most part, it doesn't matter what you say. There's no area that lends itself to response improvement as much as the list. We're going to talk about that. But before I get, I have some specific advice to tell you. It is almost, I believe, a source of pride with you that you do not sell the opportunity seeker market. I think you

should look at that differently. I think you should go after the Robert Allen, Mark Haroldson, whoever the current guru market is. And I'll tell you why. First, it's a big market. You can make a lot of money. Secondly, you have a quality product giving these people what they really want. And I mean, that's going to exponentially increase your profits and exponentially increase your customer base and all the rest of it. I mean, what you're doing now is just saying we won't sell to Filipinos, you know, and that's crazy if there's a big Filipino section in

your town. Okay. Mhm. And that should open an enormous door for you. All right. A long time ago before zip codes, we just kept our list in alphabetical order and we mailed them out. You know, then zip codes came in and you got certain breaks from the post office by putting the zip code on or putting them in zip code order. Well, actually what the first thing happened though is you had to put the zip code on the letter where you used to be just Chicago, Illinois, now it had to be Chicago, Illinois zip code.

And everybody bitched about that except that after it was implemented, they found that by using that data, you could increase response. Now, let's pretend for a moment that you have unlimited amounts of money and you are able to mail to everybody in the entire United States. And I don't know what that is, but for talking purposes, 250 million people. Okay. And whatever that offer was, now I don't know how many zip codes there are now. I know that there used to be 40,000. There's probably 80 or 100,000 now. Let's say that there's a 100,000 zip

codes. If you analyze the response, and remember, you've mailed everybody, you would find that some of those zip codes responded 30 times better than other zip codes. Right. Right. Okay. Now, this is real basic and we're going to get into more specific stuff. There was a guy named Martin Bear who worked for Old America Insurance in St. Louis, Missouri, and they were incredibly huge mailers. I mean, tens of millions and, you know, just on and on and on. They sold lowcost mail order insurance. Well, Martin Bayer became the father of a mathematical zip code regression

analysis. And this is how he did it. He assigned every zip code in the United States and there were 40 at that time with a number. The first number was one, two or three. And that meant that it was urban, suburban or rural. Okay, that identified the zip code. The next number identified by quartile the educational level of the people in that zip code. The highest quartortile number one. It means that they got a lot of college graduates. It would go down to four would you know? No, I think it was actually backwards. I think

four was the best, you know. So, let's say that you lived in New York City and you had a college degree. So, the first number of your zip code would be one because it's urban. And the second would be four because you're in the top quartile of education, right? Then he would do it by income. Same thing. And if you earned 100 grand a year or more, you would be four on that one. And the last one was conspicuous consumption. The way they got conspicuous consumption is they would take the aggregate value of the automobiles

in that zip code and divide it by the population and they would use that number. So let's say that the average for every person there's $15,000 worth automobiles. So that would be a four. Now 44 is the highest rating you can get. Okay? Then you could get 433 or you could get 443. Okay? And so forth. But the lowest rating you could get and the first urban that just identifies where you live would be one one. It means you're an idiot who doesn't make any money and doesn't own a car basically. Okay. Now this was

the beginning but it was really very very crude. So what he did is he identified every zip code in America with an ID number that identified the characteristics of that. Have you got that? You bet. Okay. You bet. Now then what old American insurance would do is they would say like they would mail a million Letters to the zip codes at random and then they would analyze their results. It's called a regression analysis to find out what type of people generally at least what zip codes of people were buying. And then instead of mailing a

100 pieces of mail, they would get the same result by maybe mailing 70 million pieces of mail, which is an enormous accomplishment. You with me so far? Now, here's something kind of curious about them. They found out the opposite of what they expected to find out. They found out that the lowest elements was buying mail order. They were finding out that the people in the ghettos were buying mail order insurance. And when you think about it, that is who would buy it. You know, that's not like who the company wanted to think was buying it,

but that's who was buying it. Well, he made this service available to other mail order companies. And my company at that time, which still exists, has my name, but I don't own it. But that's easily has to be one of the biggest direct mail companies. I I mean I wrote one letter they've mailed 600 million of so far just the one letter and they're in the billions of letters that they've mailed and when you mail billions of letters you know you analyze everything red envelope versus blue envelope so a lot of stuff I'm telling you

I'm telling you that cuz I'm not guessing okay what he did then is he had a computer program one of the first ones and you'd give him your customer list and he would run it through and intermisticulate and do all this stuff and come out and tell you who Was buying. We were selling Family Crest items, you know, and it turned out our best customers were the opposite end of their best customers, right? So, if we wanted to now on the particular mailing that we mailed the most of, how common the name was determined the

response more than any other factor. Mailing to Smiths and Jones didn't work. Mailing to the Mergidoids would work very well. However, if you were mailing to a really common name and you knocked out those people that didn't buy, it might punch it up enough you could make the mailing right now. You have a 750,000 licensed realtor, which incidentally, I can guarantee you is your secondary market. Your primary market is the people that Robert Allen sell to. Just take my word for that. That's true. But that's another story. Now these 750,000 people are only people registered

with a real estate license. That does not mean they are currently interested in real estate. A lot of housewives got it. All the women in Boca Raton, you know, they want to get out of the house and have an affair. They get a real estate license. But some of these work better than others. So the first thing you want to find out is how well the 750,000 will respond by taking a random sample. cuz the utopian scenario is that that list will work. Now, you keep harping on your 225 bucks or whatever it is per

sale. But the way you want to think of it, if you make $10 a name by mailing list A, $5 by mailing list B, four by Mailing list D, etc., etc., you don't stop mailing at list N because it only makes 50 cents a letter. You want to vacuum out every pocket of loot you got, right? Mhm. Well, the first thing is will the 750,000 work at all? So, what you want to pull off here is a ninth. Now, do you know that term? Nth. Ninth name sample. What the hell is that? Random. Random. You

know, like you pull off every 10th name. Every 10th or Yeah. Or every 20. It's not really random. It's every so many. And you want to mail 5,000 pieces of mail with your lead generator and see how many comes in. And then you also want to follow up. Is that profitable? Will that be profitable? It doesn't have to be as profitable as your ads are. John was making that point. If it's profitable law, you got a [ __ ] license to print money, right? Mhm. And you can do that over and over. I think that's

not likely to be the case unless you got a really great copywriter doing it for you. That it's unlikely to do that. Now, it's unlikely that what that the 750,000 list will work. It could. It could. Now, let's talk about how to narrow that down. The number one way to narrow it down is the people who subscribe to the trade magazines. I Would think, wouldn't you? I mean, those are the hottest of the hot probably. Actually, they are not. The hottest of the hot are people who have bought other real estate instruction stuff. You should

be working with a first class mailing list broke. Once in a while, I tell you to take notes. And this is the first one. Mailing list broker. Get the best. You really want someone who ferrets out great mailing list for you. Who you there's a lot of programs where real estate agents further their accreditation or standing, right? What kind of things do they have for real estate agents? Yes, they have different courses. Yes, those are people that want to better themselves and you need access to that information. Who are the people that are doing that?

And the other thing I said is is the income level. What income level are they at when they buy your course? Is there consistency there or is all over the place? I got people who are experienced and people who are dead broke, flat on their ass, ready to get out of the business, right? All over the place. Yeah. There's a part I'm going to really want you to fill in here when we get to a thing. But before you get to income, the number one prospect is someone who's bought something else related to how to

make money in real estate. Mhm. Robert Allen's thing, the closest thing to what you're selling, to tell you the truth. This is pretty basic, but do you know about recency? Frequency and unit of sale. Recency. Yes, I understand. Recency. Frequency. So, how many times they've actually purchased and unit of sale? How much they purchased? How big was it? It was 10 bucks or In other words, you want a guy that paid $5,000 yesterday to buy a similar thing and he's done it 20 times before. Yes. So, you want those mailing list. You basically want a

real estate info junkie. But let's winnow these guys down. Ruben Donley, what I told you about Martin Bear, that was a long time ago. Now, every name in the United States is coded by two or three big compilers with what, 30 characteristics or 40? Yeah. Different lifestyle character, income, education, car. You can kick them out by what kind of car they drive, hobbies, what kind of TV programs they watch, what magazines they read, all kinds of things. And that's called an overlay. In other words, what a big coupon mailer, big mailer do now is they'll

mail a million letters and then they'll have Ruben Donnelly put the overlay out of it and they'll say, "Your a prospect is homeowners with 2.6 children but not over four children between the ages and such and such with an income of such and such and all the rest of it." And they'll say, "Out of the 250 million names, there's 17 million good ones." Now, I'll give you One I actually did. I did it for an ad agency in New York. They had a guy who was selling a widget that got you more miles per gallon

for your car. And they had advertised in really broad-based space like Parade Magazine. And I made them analyze their sales by making model of car. They didn't want to do that, but I made them do that. And then I made them get me the statistics on how many cars of that model and year were made. And then you do a simple regression analysis and you found out the owners of what kind of cars were buying their products. The top was a three-year-old Lincoln at that time. That's all I remember. And at the other end would

be a VW. You know, they don't need to increase their gas mileage. So then when they went to Ruben Donley, who has all the automobile things on there, you know, they wouldn't say just give me a list of car owners. They would say give me a list of three-year-old Lincoln owners, etc. and you keep going down and down till you no longer make a profit. Right? So, the first thing you guys all need in your case, it's more true than their cases because yours is a simpler job with list selection, but you need to get

the best list you could humanly possibly get. Then, the next thing you should do after that is you should get the best copywriter that your money can buy. And the reason you should do that is that will be the least expensive part of your advertising. The really good copywriters don't cost you money. If you Pay a guy like Gary Ben Zena $30,000 or $60,000 to write a letter for you, you can ask me or John, you've just gotten the best bargain you're ever going to get. Because when you amatize that out over all the letters

that are mailed, Gary Benzinga is going to bring back more money than almost anybody else that you're going to have you and you can get a lot of guys for 2500 bucks to write your thing. And what's going to happen is you'll think that's a bargain, but that's not. So make that your second note. You need to get your mailing list broker. Then you need to get the best copyright. Then the next thing you need is you need to affiliate yourself with someone like Sam Fishbine or someone he can recommend who can do logistical things

that are not likely to be able to be done by other people. Now I'll tell you what, Sam and I work together a lot. We have since the 1980s. Sometimes Sam calls me and we'll talk on the phone and when we're done, copy for two ads and two direct mail letters will be finished. He will have them in my fax machine while we're still talking. Camera ready, ready to print and justified with the headline and everything ready for the Denver Post to run it. He'll press one button, the Denver Post has got it. Press another

one, Direct Mail Services has got it and it's ready to go. You need somebody like direct mail services that's in Denver. They may be in your a different company. What is that? What is direct mail? Just a direct mail house that can do all the fulfillment, the printing, and the most like Kyle California. Yeah. Well, no. He's not like Kyle. Kyle Kyle just he's a one note song. But here's what you can do with him. And now we're going to get into increasing the response to your direct mail. cuz I think that's what all this

focuses down to. If you use a letter shop like that for not much more than the cost of printing the letter, you can put the person's name in upper and lowercase big headlines across the top of the letter. You could write a letter that says Terry Hunterfeld increases commissions by 75% with secret he learned in two hours. And then you can put a date, an inside address. Say, "Dear Terry, please take a moment to read the headline at the top of this page. Don't laugh. it really could happen. I did a letter for Phillips Publishing,

the largest newsletter publisher in the world. And what I did is I put headlines all the way through the letter, subheads. If that's not enough, imagine you woke up in the morning, picked up your daily newspaper, and it said Terry Hunterfield's family blown away by DCN's, and here's how you can stop that from happening. Or how would you like to pick up the newspaper and say Terry Hunterfield makes extra million dollars because of blah blah. In other words, I was able to make them picture it. And you can do that with the right direct mail.

And John, you did it with the golf thing too or the the karate thing. Family gets killed. They only went out once. They got too much weight on that. But yeah. Okay. It worked. The other thing is that you want to concentrate on your propositions all the time. You guys have a proposition and a model that has been sort of handed to you. Maybe your proposition should be a different one. Or maybe you should use more than one proposition. You know, like what what do you what do you mean by propos? Okay, here's the most

common proposition in the world. You give me x amount of dollars, I'll give you this. That's it. That's the most common one. Here's a variation on that. You give me x amount of dollars, I'll give you this, and if you don't like it in 30 days, I'll give you your money back. Another proposition is this is going to cost you x amount of dollars, but you can pay me over 12 months. Another change in the proposition is you can write me a post-dated check. Infinite, right? But these are things that will make enormous changes in

it. Hold on a minute. You know how you said we should mail 10 times a year? Would you change the proposition every time or just restate the same proposition? Well, first thing I do is I would take the same letter and mail it till it wasn't profitable anymore. Okay. Yeah. And then in the meantime, you start testing other ones and if you find a better one, go with that one. Okay. To make your direct mail more effective, one of the things you want to do is you just simply want to test everything in the world.

Tell them how many ads you create a year, Sam. Oh, about three to 400 a year. 3 to 400 a year. Whoa. A lot of it's cut and paste. You do every day or what? You're changing the look. I've got a big archive of things that I draw from, you know, so it doesn't take that long to zoom. The main thing is coming up with the headlines and the like different propositions, different offers. Here's what Sam and I came to conclusion. Sam's deal is the same all the time. It's no money down, no interest, no

payment for 12 months, low prices, and top quality. That's the only thing we have to say, right? Yeah, there's a few other things, but that's the majority of But I mean, that's the yada yada. Yeah, the yada yada. We call that the yada yada. Now what we have to do is we have to invent a reason for the sale and then we have to make them believe it. So some of reasons for a sale is that the what was the first one? The bulldozers were tearing your block down, right? And then you know if it's

a rain damaged sale, Sam will have to go up in the warehouse and punch a hole in the roof so that it rains on the furniture and have an excuse for a sale. His wife's birthday sale, right? That's a big one. The other one was if it snows on Halloween, we'll give you your furniture free. That was one we paid an insurance company a premium. So if it did snow then they paid everybody back. That was big. We got a lot of reason. So you just got to repackage and come up with a lot of

you know like in directly you said your ads their life diminishes over time in newspaper in the same market. It happens much quicker. It dies very quickly. So a lot of it is just repackaging it and changing the headlines. You don't like your couch you can sleep with my wife. say those kind of things. Have we done that yet? We had uh tries new position. I got a brief on uh local furniture store owner swears under oath that the furniture I sell in was not stolen. Right. That was one we did. You know what? I

just thought of something that should bring us home and it's very good. Have you ever been on a diet? Yes. Have you been you've been on a diet? But you you know about diets. Yeah, I've been on diets. Anything you do that works? What's the first thing that happens after you find something that works? Say say a workout routine or um say say you start jogging With other people and you jog a mile every day. What's the first thing that starts to happen about a month down the road, two months down the road, what happens?

You have to change it, right? It starts losing its effectiveness, right? Or you got Andy or something, right? So in a diet, what is the thing that you have to do with your diet? But it's not the foods. It's how your body processes the food. You guys are making your money. You're living. You're dying. You're laughing and crying all on the strength of your copy you're sending out. Without the copy, you're not in business, right? Your copy is a thing you got to look at. And you've been meaning the same letter for over a year,

right? Mhm. You know, that's like being on the same diet for a year and wondering why aren't I losing weight still? You know what? It's like walking up to a girl in a bar every night and using the same line on the same girl. Yeah. On the same girl. It's like driving a car with the same tires for 15 years. Yeah. This is your lifeblood. This is the beginning and the end of who you are and what you're doing and what I got. But actually, you know, that's good cuz a lot of people, including myself,

you get tired of your [ __ ] a lot sooner than your audience does. And sometimes you change it to your detriment. Yeah. So, you got to be careful of that, too. Well, but the point is you don't have to change. Yeah. You look at the results. You know, I thought you were leading somewhere else, though. What's the first thing that happens if you have an infomercial that's making a lot of money or an ad that's repeated over and over? You stop doing it. No, someone else knocks it off. And so, who should be the

first person to knock off your successful promo? Me, right? We talked about that this morning. Oh, we did. What? You weren't here. Well, it's uh Andy Grove in his book, Only the Paranoid Survive, saying that he he constantly looks for replacement for every product, no matter how profitable is, cuz he wants he wants Do you like that book? I haven't read it. Bill Gates said that was one of his favorite books, but he said he he obsoletes every product he makes just to keep the competition off his back cuz if he just stuck with what

he had, he knows he's not going to be around very long. And most companies who just stick with what they have and stick with the status quo fail. And that's what happened to IBM. Let's talk about that. How would you suggest that we knock ourselves off? Well, before you think about knocking yourself off. I've thought about it a lot. Yeah. But before you even do that, you need to maximize what you're doing now. Let's just start make a list of ways to do that. All right. Okay. Well, hold on. Did you cover all the you

said the first thing to get the best mailing list and broker, get the best copyriter, affiliate yourself with someone who can do logistical things, and change your proposition. Anything else? Well, I had 17 other things and Carrie walked in and I forgot them all. So, let's go on to another subject. Okay. She erased my mind. Yeah. Um, what are we here for? I'm just tornado. Is there a tornado out there now? No, it'll happen. Yeah. There's a bunch more things like grabbers and all the rest of it, but let's just take a fresh list and

let's start talking about ways to maximize your profits. Okay, I use this analogy a lot is just imagine that you um this program continues with tape three. [Music] Now Gary is going to talk about ways to maximize your offer. No, actually I I'm really not not just yet. Okay. Um let's just let's just I was talking about paratroopers or whatever like and let's say that there's gold coins in one area and silver coins in another and copper in another, lead in another. You've heard me talk about that before. And some people say, "Let's just run

around a frenzy picking up coins." And I'll say, "No, let's stay here and pick up the gold coins until there no more Gold. Then let's go after the silver." That's exactly what I was talking about when you said, "What do I need? I've got coins available everywhere. I just want to get the gold ones, right? Cuz there's only 24 hours in the and a coin is a coin, but if this is gold, it's a lot more valuable than if it's lead." And if it takes the same amount of effort to pick up the gold one

as it does the lead one, pick up the gold. That is a great I'm going to swipe that totally for my seminars. I may not hit these completely in rank order, but all of them are things that lend itself immediately. Thought is you need a different lead generating ad. That should be on your list. Different lead generating ad. I have multiple ones that have all worked and I change them occasionally. I mean, would you suggest going back and resurrecting them? Wait, wait a minute. And after that, you know what? You need new one? No. Immediately.

You need a third lead generating ad and you need a fourth lead generating ad and a fifth and a sixth and a seven. Are you talking about in the context of doing the over and over? I'm talking about the formula you're working now. Okay. You guys are basically one trick ponies right now. Maybe you're not, but what if your ad produced no leads all of a sudden? I'd be changing the ad. Yeah, we are changing the ad now. But my point is you should do that now. I should have been doing that months ago. Yeah,

you should have a family of ads and those ads should be different sizes all the way from classifides to full pages to vertical columns, their three column magazines, etc. They should have different headlines, different body copy and so forth. That's number one. You need a family of ads. That's the first thing you can do. Second thing, then running them all at once. No, no, just rotating. Well, yeah, you mix and match. You know, you run this one, you run that one, you run this one. Sometimes you run more than one ad in the magazine. Let

me tell you another thing, too. You may want to put reference ads in there. Want to double your commissions? Cage 74. Those are little ads that advertise the advertising. Holy [ __ ] Hold on a minute here. That is great for the classified ads. Want to double your business. C page whatever. I asked the trade publication. They're doing that between my full page and my articles and my classified in my articles. Good. You can actually call those reference ads. I call them reference ads. You can put a reference ad every 10 pages cuz you're saying

actually run one. I mean, yeah, cuz I asked them if they could reference them. They did it for me. But but you're saying if they won't, I can't run. Sure. Wow. You guys aren't paying very much for your ads and was Well, Terry probably pays the most because he has the largest circulation, but I pay 2,000 bucks a month for one, about 1,800 for another. The look of your ad should be different. the look and the size, the headlines, the copy. And let me tell you that one of the formulas that you want to play

on more and more if you have success stories is how a parapolgic who was blind from birth succeeded in the brain surgery business or something. Story ads work very well. Story ads and reason how a failing real estate agent went from earning 0 to $28,000 in a month. But you see how many stories there are like that. I mean there's you're using one and you want different looks to your ad, different photos. In other words, see this is the most important part of your business. This is the one you want to focus on. You know

what? What about this Gary? Should you run multiple like this whole reference thing you I think that work fantastic. Well, what I've noticed, like my latest ad is a testimonial ad with a headline that basically says exposed in big bold letters all the way across the top. A small town carpet cleaner speaks out and reveals the truth about Joe Polish, that marketing guy that advertises in this magazine all the time and it's looked to be an expose. I'm a crook or something. And then they go on to read and the guy starts talking about how

I made 193,000 his first year. Well, we've been getting a lot of new leads from this ad. But what we've noticed is because of this ad, all these guys that have been sitting on my sales letters are getting my sequences that have not yet bought, it's fueling them to buy because the testimonial ad is convincing them that obviously this guy is for real. Now, what I was thinking was the thing about these trade mags in terms of readership is sometimes I'll possibly have to run that ad for a year until every person actually sees it.

You know, the people that read, not everybody, but you know, certain people don't flip to that page or whatever. So, I'm going to run it more than one time. But I like the idea of catching up at different parts of the magazine. In case they didn't see it on page 12, you can get them with a reference ad on page 17. Little tiny ones. But to actually because that ad has fueled so much response from back people that have responded to my letters that are sitting on them. What if I was to put like four

or five different full page testimonial ads in one issue of the magazine? Why not put one testimonial ad? You know, there was a guy, remember this guy in Utah, John? His only advertising was this big trade thing. He sold cinder blocks or something. He got all his business from a onepage ad in there. And I said, "Run six ads." And he never thought of that. Run six ads. You know, you look at a bizop magazine, how many ads do you see running over and over of the same thing? You need a family of ads. Also,

when you mail to a prospect, a guy who's raising his hand, he says, "Yeah, mail this stuff." You mail him letter number one. Right. Right. And then if he doesn't respond to that, you mail him letter number two. Right. Right. Well, see that's probably good. But what's the most effective letter you've got in that letter number one? Because why aren't you mailing letter number one again to make sure that the guy got it? We are really. It's they're all the same. They're not different letters. Like here's the carbon copy letter, right? Yeah. Here's letter. Change

the front page. Say second. Here's letter number one. I still go for it, I bet. You know, here's letter number one, which comes with a million dollar bill. We've used real dollar bills. didn't change response at all to go to a million dollar bill except to cut my cost down about uh you know 90 cents per letter. It has a picture of me in the middle. Then they get this free report. Then they get this big testimonial book. This right here is what doubled my response when I started sending this. We went from 8% to

16%. And it's Joe Polish interviews current system users. Listen to this tape after you've read my letter. And basically it's a 90minute cassette tape of me talking to actual users of my system talking about it's great. How could you not want to buy it? Joe guarantees that all this stuff actually works. Blah blah blah blah. Which still, you know, anyone that would listen this tape would have to be freaking brain dead or completely incapable buying my stuff in order to not really believe it. Like this is a scam cuz I've got multiple people on there

talking about how great I am. But anyway, people that don't respond to that, they get letter number two. Letter number two has a different and new one-hour testimonial tape that says, "Here's what Joe Polish clients have to say about his marketing system. Different color. Does it cost you mail?" No. What's the response response? Okay. This one is about I think cuz they're different for different lists, but I would say to keep it simple, this one's about 8%. Why are they to different lists? I get better response from different magazines, but the average is 8% off

letter number one, 3% off letter number two, 5% off letter number three. So, letter number two, cover letter. It says, "Are you still tearing up money and throwing it away? If you haven't gotten a hold of my test, proven guaranteed money-making secrets yet you are." And then it's personalized, "Dear John, whatever." And then the second note is, "Finally, discover how to make big dollars, not just pennies." And it's the same letter as letter number one, just a different cover in a tiny little different intro. But then the rest of it's basically the same article reprints,

ugly green order form with actual writing on it, mucked up. Then what I told you over the phone when we were talking? Hard for me to believe that's the right way to do it. Okay, remember what I told you on the phone? What specifically? Well, you want to try a different format. Think of it this way. I mean, you don't know if this is working or not. You're in this box, so to speak, as we can call it, and you're doing this. So, you say, "Okay, I'm going to send you this big ugly letter." Uhhuh.

And a tape. And if you don't respond, well, I'm going to send you a bigger tape and a bigger ugly letter. If you don't respond to that, I'm going to send you a bigger send a I think I told you a number 10. Okay. Well, to follow up with what you told me, what are we're doing now? We send them in different color envelopes now. Okay. Different looking envelopes. We have, you know, the white envelopes with the green box. You were in a box. You're in a You're in a box. Just say, "What do you

mean, John? Can you give me some ideas?" I know exactly what he's talking about. He's exactly right. I'm aware of this. You got to understand, I can't revamp my mailings just overnight along other things. Actually, you can. Actually, you should. What is more important than your mailing? Well, for one, what I've done is we've changed the color of the letters, the testimonial book, which we used to send out the big blue one. Now, we've changed it to a small booklet with blue writing, which is different. Still the same [ __ ] same testimonials, but just

a different look. Look at that. Is that nice? He's got them on their letter heads. Nice job. But he's got 16% conversion rate. That's double mine. So, he's doing something real, right? Well, we're going to double yours in the next 20 minutes. Let's go back to lime colored order forms. Maybe we should expand on the ugliness of the package. What's like the ugliest thing in the world? You in the morning? No, you in the morning. I've heard you in the morning. do in the market. I've heard of someone mass- prodducing the fake coffee cup stain

on the top of the sales letter. And another thing that I thought was always kind of funny, which I've never tried cuz Dan says it's too cutesy, but I thought it was kind of neat, is when someone crumples up a piece of paper and then they uncrumple it and fold it and then they send the letter. It says, "Dear so and so, I've precrumpled this letter to save you the trouble of throwing it in the trash yourself." You ever seen those? I got a letter like that in the mail and I thought, "Damn, I would

read it." I I'm pulling out a totally crumpled letter and I'm like, "What the [ __ ] is this?" And it says, "Dear so and so, the reason I pre-crumpled this letter is to save you the trouble of throwing it in the trash. However, it would be a big mistake if you didn't do that." And then it goes on with the I say I I almost didn't want to send you this letter and I almost threw it away. That's a good one. I almost There's blood on it. Blood. By the time you receive this letter,

I'll be dead from loss of blood. There there's an old a guy did it said, "I'm sorry to be writing this with a crayon, but that's all they'll let us have in here. That's funny. It was you that wrote that, right? No. Let's go back to where John was criticizing your piece and you were getting not for educational purposes. You just enjoy this, don't you? He was commenting on it. You were getting real defensive. No, I'm not getting defensive. I'm saying it's absolutely something I should be doing. You know, I just wish I wasn't so

[ __ ] up management wise I could implement this tomorrow. But it's in the works. It is in the works. I'm having all my sales letters printed in different colors. We've ordered different envelopes for each one. The biggest challenge for me is the changing of the copy because see I'm not the one that writes my copy. Dan writes my copy and getting Dan to make changes or do certain things sometimes takes 3 weeks to a month because he's busy. You can do an envelope says warning openings carefully dust mit. Nice. Was there anything else? You

know what I told him he should plant an article about dust mites the next the next day it's in there. Dust mites are big now. They're huge. That's I I mean a lot of my promotions are based around, you know, it says Denver invaded by bugs that live in bedroom carpets. A free test kit reveals it. And you call to get the free test kit and then you got to leave. This is what I'm going to do to change a lot of my mailings. What I'm going to start doing is I'm going to start including

actual photographs with my mailings in different envelopes and I'm Going to handr write on one, stamp on another, photo enclosed, okay, on the outside of the envelope. And then I'm going to send my fourth sequence. By the way, old American insurance found out by putting something like that in. It was the most lift that they had ever gotten. Another one they got, one the biggest one of all was carbon enclosed. Do not write or something. And it's weird to get a response from that. You have something in your home that's more dangerous than radon gas.

Remember when the radon gas thing was big and they got thousands of people to buy those detectors? you have something more hideous in your home than radar. The what you really need though is Denver invaded by bugs that live in bedroom carpets. And then you just tell this horrible story and you don't mention what business you're in. You just give them a free testing kit. Give them a free test. However, I need to tell you what I need to tell you next because I'm getting old and I forget things. And what I need to tell

you next is probably the most important thing that we're going to talk about in the entire two days. This one will get you before he forgets. Before I forget because I do forget. We're going to go over your numbers again. Your lead cost is 10. So you spend to get one leads to get 100. I spend $1,000 and I get 100 leads. Okay. You spend $1,000 and you get 100 leads. Yes. And then you spend how much more on these 100 leads in advertising? Another $800. Another $800. So, you are now spending $1,800 to get

four sales letters in front of Yeah. But you've spent $1,800. And how many sales do you get? Eight. Eight sales. Okay. Now, let's punch up your cost a little bit. Okay. This is what we're going to do. And this one will triple your profits. We could go home right now. absolutely guarantee. Do this exactly the way I tell you. It will triple your profits. Okay. First thing is you mailing first class mail. Yes. Stop that. Start mailing by priority mail. First letter goes out. Priority mail or FedEx. You want to check it. But priority mail

is $3, right? Yes. Okay. Now, priority mail is like a big cardboard package like a FedEx. Exactly what it looks like. Okay. Now, the number one letter. Priority mail. Hold it. No. No. No. Stay with me. Inside this package is a sealed envelope. Let's use brown vanilla. Just a regular brown vanilla envelope that contains your sales pitch. Mhm. And with that sealed envelope is a onepage letter. One page. And it's personalized, automatically typed or computerized or roboticized. And it's got a dollar bill attached to the top of it. Right? And here's the theme of the

letter. You can see I sent you a dollar bill. I'm doing this for two reasons. Number one, I have something very important to tell you, and I want to make sure that this letter caught your attention. Number two, since what this is about is how you can make a lot of money, I thought using a dollar bill was a very good eye catcher. Do you remember the headline, how to make more real estate commissions, I'm sure you do because that's the headline that caused you. You read it and so and so and called my office,

etc., etc. Well, all the information I promised you is inside the sealed envelope and yada yada yada. And you tell them that and then you also tell them you can do anything you want with that dollar bill. Buy yourself a beer, give it to charity. What you hope you do is you frame it. Why? Because I hope that two years from now when someone comes in, sees that frame dollar bill on your wall and ask you about it. You say, "Well, that's the first dollar bill I ever received because of my association with Terry Hunt."

And since then, I've gotten over 1 million more. Now, we've added the cost. But what we've done, what you want these people, you do not want to economize on these 100 people. So now let's talk about that package. Let's talk about if we just put this inside in your sequence. Okay, let's talk about how much we're going to add to your cost. Well, we're going to add $4 with the dollar bill and everything else, right? Yes. Okay. And now let's what? Add two bucks for the rest of it printing and stuff. Is that fair? Make

it six bucks. Okay. Now, we got a hundred leads there, right? And we've pumped your cost up $600. Now, how many more sales we got to make from those 100 to justify this kind of sledgehammer impact? Here it is. Think about it. You're reading an ad. You call an 800 number. You leave your name and address. And 3 days later, you get a priority mail or FedEx that's got a dollar bill letter personalized that drives you into that. You ain't never been treated like that before. How many more of that 100 people got to respond

to justify that? One. One. And you know how many more will? More than one. More than one. Two. Two. One. We sent out 240 of those and we got 80 back for 1,200 bucks a piece. Yeah. They're sweet. 1,200 bucks a piece. Well, it was uh What were you selling for 1,200 bucks? A home study course. Yep. After we got the leads, we sent out 240 priority mail packs personalized with a dollar bill and we got 80 back. Yeah. Out of 240. When Sam first hired me, the first thing I said is to send a

dollar bill letter to all your customer list. And they fought me on that. They've never done anything more profitable yet. That right there is the number one thing you can do instantly. Even if you don't hire another copywriter, even if you don't change your package, just put your Current package inside a sealed envelope. One more. That'll triple the response. Yeah, you're going to triple your response, which probably 600 bucks more. Wow. That's a good idea, huh? Wow. You know, we're going to edit this out of the tape so everyone that buys this cuz I mean

I want to deal with the more important [ __ ] not this minutia of like tripling your response, dollar bill letter. This I mean, he's been Okay. You want to triple it again? Sure. Do it three times. Now, what you do next step after mailing this, the phone rings, you hi, this is Terry Hunterfield. You call them. It's a setup for a call. Here's the reason it's a setup. After you send this, this should be your first package. And after you send that package, the next thing that happens is not another letter, but a telephone

call. And then the telephone call says, "Hi, this is Gary Halbert. I'm calling because I sent you a letter the other day and I wanted to make sure you got it. You'll remember if you did because I sent it priority mail and there was a dollar bill attached to it. Oh yeah, I got that. Well, I was a little worried. You know, you can't be too careful when you send money through the mail. He said, "Yeah, but I got you got it." Okay, you got your second yes not. Did you get a chance to read

the letter? You get your third yes not. If you can't take it from there, you're beyond all hope. What do you say that though, Gary? What would you really say? What would I really say? I'll hear you say if you can't get it from there, you're beyond all hope. What would be leading questions that you would actually say? First of all, after I established they had read the package, I would say, well, that's good. I'm really glad you did because we've been getting all kinds of calls from the people we sent this out. And I

was just going to ask you, what did you like best about what I had to say? Okay. And what you said, do you have any questions? We're kind of wondering why we haven't heard from you and we so many other people have been calling. We haven't heard from you. So that's better than mine. Okay. And so we're just kind of wondering I wanted to make sure you got it and you read it. Why haven't you called? Well, no. We do a lot of telemarketing. What we end up h happening is that it works. It's effective.

But what I'd like to do is streamline it because this is where Wait, wait, wait. Now, okay. Now, what you want to do now is you want to make those calls, the first hundred until you capture yourself a concert pitch. Then you put those six in a cassette and that's your training for your salespeople and where you're overcoming like the 10 most common objections where you're making your clothes, your subtitive closes and all the rest of it. And then you get that down to whatever six cassettes, four cassettes. Someone comes in to work the phone

for you. You say, "Here, I did it myself. You listen to my actual calls." That's your training thing. You hear that? Training tapes. Training tapes. This is the key. No, I know. Believe me, I've done a lot of when I first started this business, I did a lot of it and I'm real damn good on the phone. See, this is the deal. A lot of time is taken because these guys start talking. They start talking and I want to realize Joe, let me let me interrupt something. You amongst all the people in this room need

the least sales help. You need to be kicked out of your [ __ ] business and have somebody else management. I watched you. You're a disaster. I feel free to say that because I'm the biggest disaster in the world except for Kit Weathers and Jay Abraham. You're also a disaster. Your main concerns are management concerns and you're never going to solve them because you are an insane person just like me and John and Jay and Ken. That's really something you need to know. You need to be out of your business. You need to be going

to sessions like this doing this and giving it to somebody like Sam does. He gives it to Leslie. See, you notice what your questions revolve around all the time. Not the same thing is this is not saying you're bad. It's you're different. You know, it's but how am I going to do this? I know I got to get my people to do this. You're not good at figuring that out. You're not good at implementing it. You know what? I started with the business of 700 people, then found out I was no good. Had a partner

run it. Then I started with me and Pette, me writing copy, her answering the phone and typing, made millions of dollars. Moved to another building, got three employees. Moved to Florida, got seven. Moved to [ __ ] Key West, got three teams of telemarketers. You know what I'm good at? I'm good at doing what I'm doing right now and writing other letters. You know how many employees I need to do that? One. You ain't no [ __ ] good at running a business. You're horrible. I watched you. That's why I made you communicate by facts

for a week. You leave a trail of chaos behind. Here's how John Carlton describes Gary Halbert walking into an office. John says it's like there's an anthill here. I open door. Yeah. Well, that's it for me today and then I go home. You know, we went we would walk in the office with humming through the people in the car. 5 minutes later I walk out papers flying and people yelling at each other and screaming and everybody's hair fizz and kick the engine. You're an entrepreneur and you're a great marketing guy and you are not a

manager. Okay, accept it. Get out of it. I just did it. I got rid of all my employees except Terry who works out of a ripped out 15 telephone lines. I'm now starting to make money. I was going [ __ ] bankrupt. I couldn't pay my rent. You know what? Listen to you. Listen to you. This is the most important thing I'm going to teach you this weekend. Listen to you. Well, well, yeah, that would trip [ __ ] profits, I guess. You know, but [ __ ] you know, how do I get these down,

you know, you know, and you're already saying, I don't know which coins to pick up. You're running around like a chicken with its head cut out. Get out of your [ __ ] business. Get out of it. When you say get out of it, though, I mean, get out of the management of it. You're not a manager. You can't run a business. Well, you suck at running a business. you. No, that's No, running a business is for people who lead sucky lives anyway. They're all dull. Everyone who can run a business well is a dull

turd. Joe is not like, okay, he's a bright turd. You know, really can't find his. You don't need any more ideas, Joe. I mean, you do, but anyhow. Okay. Now step thing is you need a family of ads which also same copy is a family of letters but you have the people call in capture their name and address. You send them the priority mail package with the cover letter with the dollar bill and follow it up with a phone call till you got your training session. Then you give it to the other people coming in.

That actually sounded like good therapy. I think I'm going to try that on you too. It was, you know, I don't know if it helped him or not, but it helped me. I just love to brag on people like that. You know, you've already given me that pitch before. I mean, not that that what would you call it? I wouldn't I mean, I I take it as good advice. I don't take it because I know you truly want to help. I would I wouldn't I don't get that passion about people I don't care about. And

the same advice applies to me. I just went through that whole painful process. I mean, honest to God, I am in my office less than 30 minutes a week. I give them little supervision if any. And part of Me, you see, the thing lacking in my business is really leadership. The leadership shouldn't come from me. It should come from someone else. The problem is I don't have that person right now. And I need to get that person. I've got to run my business until that person actually exists or until I find that person. And I

am working on that. You know what it is? In psychology, they have a term. It's called understanding is the booming prize. Understanding doesn't get you anywhere. It's implementation. Understanding is the boo. Is it really? Yeah. Okay. Ask. Go for it. When we give the seminars, we look out on the sea of 40 eager faces. Look down and we be able to pick out on two fingers. How many of those people are going to go out and actually make it work? Listen. Almost none. Almost none would be able to go out and make it work. Everything

fought it. I see that by going to these big JPT seminars where Dan I mean they're selling literally thousands of these systems and they have hundreds of people coming seminars. You know, there are very few people that have actually You know how many people break the cellophane on a videape that they buy from a TV commercial? You know what how many do it? Probably about one out of a hundred who even break the cellophane. And that's a good sales job. A good sales job means that once you've you reach out, you pick up the phone,

you order. Yeah. You think you've actually taken that first step and then when the tape arrives two weeks later, what's this? And you throw it away. You don't have I've got like six Spanish courses that I get seduced in for airline magazine. I've never listened to first tape, you know, but I keep ordering. I bought the one that was math magic how you could Did you ever crack the salv? Well, after 6 months I did and I put it in the VCR and it kept coming out. I thought my VCR was screwed up and I

kept doing it over and finally I looked in there. There's no tape in there. That's why it kept coming out. It was blank. There was this guy There was this guy at the Dan Kennedy seminar that that you had the recording of. There's a guy there in the audience who had a 5% return rate on his videos that he sent out. And one time he discovered that for 6 months he was sending out blank video tapes because of the mistake at the duplicate spot. And you know what his return rate was? 5%. So So I

said, "You know what? The only people that are returning your tape are the ones that are cracking it and looking at it." He said, "Oh man, that guy's back in. Don't change it." Well, Harry had a transcript he sent out with tapes and there was like 35 pages missing. Yeah. And one guy called The Kick here is that that won't hurt your back end. That doesn't necessarily mean they won't buy from you again. Cuz remember, they think it's how they describe it. When you think about getting a guy to move to buy your stuff, don't

think of him as a human being looking eagerly going, "Wow, I want that." Think of them as this huge slobbering slug that can barely move enough to change the channel. And it's like you the cop has to move them to the fact to kind of move this bulk and find the wallet. Picking up the phone is just amazing amount of energy and slobber everywhere and gets it done. And once he makes this in and he, you know, reading off, yeah, he reads off his his credit card number and he and he hangs up and that's

it. He's forgotten about every time he's hung up. He's done what he thinks he needs to have done. So getting into stuff is secondary, but he's still hooked. You got him in the mindset. Keep going after that guy cuz you got that slug moving a little bit. A slug in motion. And you got to remember a slug in motion will not stop unless Well, you you got to remember though that these people, a slug only remains in heat for a short period of time. You want to hit them as many times as you can. Then

after that, you find them. It's hard to motivate a frozen slug. Yes, it is. Take your lessons from the real world. Haven't you noticed on late night television, what machine are they on now? They're on some weird I mean, they started out with the belly buster and they went to the the thing and now they're making up machines out of thin air. It's like it's like the the toe jam machine, you know? Yeah. You know, I do the toe thing, you know, and I've lost a lot of weight. My stomach's tighter, you know? It's the

same benefits. Tighter stomach. I feel great. Baba and they look really [ __ ] ridiculous. And those machines go right under the bed. Nobody uses them. No, but you know what? They're going to come up with another one in about a couple weeks. I think they're due. Then as soon as they come out with one, there'll be a knockoff at a lower price. It'll be a knockoff at different kind of uh payment. Well, you know, Dan, they're in Sports Authority and Eerts. You know what Dan said about the infomercial exercise products is all of them

are made real specifically now to have the handles facing up because when the handles face down the return rate goes up because people's clothes slide off them when they're facing down. $900 track in my office three years three times. But I refused to take it down cuz god damn it. I paid 900 bucks. Finally I took it down. Got I got all this room in my office now. It's great. But I'm still ruthful about having bought the damn thing. Somebody came in and said, "Oh, this is an expensive clothing." When I first said, "No, I'm

going to use this. I'm really I'm pretty." One day I look up, there's a hat in my shirt at the bottom. There's a sweatshirt I hadn't touched for a year. You know, now what's the next best thing I can do? What's the next best thing? You think of it that way. But another way to look at it, it's like romance. Not in a funny way. Think about you're romancing each lead that comes in. Each lead is the girl of your dreams. You got to love and want and care about that person. And what would you

do when they respond to you? They have just moved their sluggish bulk and done something they don't usually do, you know, and they've done it. You got to reward them. It's like a girl putting out on the first date. She's put out. If you don't call her the next morning, she's going to be really upset. If you do call the next morning, then you're in the game, you know, and what's the steps you would take? You're romance and the slug. It's all a matter of positioning, isn't it? Positioning and perceptions. You guys are doing a

lot of stuff really right. I mean, way way above a lot of people that we talk with. I mean, worlds above. This is just John calls it bursting through membrane. We're just kicking you through another membrane, you know. Actually, maybe two or three. Joe needed to hear what I told him. I don't know that you guys do. I don't know about I know you you obviously don't, but Joe really has got a lot of me in him, you know, and it's hard to catch on to. It's hard to accept. Yep. That's why you can say

it from the heart because you see you and him. Yeah. Ask Sam. Sam knows how efficient and organized I am. He's a lead buffalo. know what everybody thought. Did I hear my name even? Sure did. What was that about me? Um, we were talking to the office. I can uh figure this out. No, everybody scattered. All right. Tony's going to try to figure out the results of the tear sheet mailing and fax it to me. I'll probably have it tomorrow. Okay. Hopefully. So, all right. Let's move on. What else would you like to know? Where

we benefit is by you taking us out of the box that we're in. you know, not necessarily about the but the model that we've been working in because there there's a lot of things. There's a big guy down in Phoenix, Arizona who says dark mail won't work and so just do it his way and if you do it out of his way won't work. So this kind of stuff for us goes wow yes. Not that I haven't read about priority mail. I heard you talk about it on your tapes before but this makes sense. Actually

what I really want to do and you'll see me come back to this all the time is the arithmetic. Let's talk about those eight orders you get from the hundred people and let's make a realistic guess as to what this would punch it up to. And remember, we're talking about priority mail, dollar bill, letter, and a telephone call. What's realistic? Make a guess for me. Well, if I'm at 8% response now, I don't know, 10. What do you think? I mean, let's just hear kick it up two points from 8% to 10. See, I think

it's going to kick it to 15 or maybe even higher. You're going more male. They're going into a whole new ball game. Yeah. Okay. You know what would make this this would make it easy is you can regurgitate cuz I've seen you do it. Copy just from the top of your head. I think we should just make the sales letter the cover letter and we should just do it. We should not but No, I Okay, fine. But I just want to know why do you think that's not because the cover letter is to sell the

immediate reading of the sales letter. Okay. Right. I punching it to 15 is at least reasonable. Actually, as Sam says, it's probably going to go higher. All right, let's talk about I'll print the one that Okay, I've got it in there. Did you hear that? We'll print the one. I'll give you the one that we sent out and we got like a 33% response. Yeah. You may price point was $1,300. They're not involved in it anymore. Gary and I were They couldn't implement. Sam, what letter do you call that? In case you forget and I

have to call you cover letter for the guy we were working with. Stay with me at 15%. Okay. Figure out how much extra that is that you're making. And we're assuming that we do all four steps yet. We made all That's just two steps. This is just with two steps. We just do a two-step letter now. No, you just actually one step. It's one step letter to priority. You're going from 8 to 15. 8% to 15. So what's seven extra sales worth? $3,500 minimum. 76 $4,200. There's 200 minimum minus the extra for what's what's the

majority of people they buy your deluxe or they buy your basic. Do you have those numbers? Well, it's about average sale 650. I don't want to use it. Most of them are deluxes. So, it's actually a little higher than that. Mhm. 15 * 6. So, if I make 15 sales instead of eight sales out of 80, I got 100 leads. One makes eight sales. One makes 15 sales. About an extra $4,000 per se like that. And that would uh well, that would kick me up right now. Well, basically it doubles everything. Doubles my sales, but

a lot of it goes to the bottom line. None of my overhead goes up. Exactly. So, and most of that goes to the bottom line. That's what I said. I didn't say what it probably will do. Probably will triple your sales, honestly. So, you think he'll go to 24%? Yes, I do. And that's what Nissonger was doing too. Series of he had I forget what what was it? I want to say 30, but that's not right. It wasn't 30 steps, but he had a lot of steps. He had dozen steps or so. Are you guys

in your experience aware of anyone else that sells anything similar to niche markets like we have done? Chiropractors. John's got a guy that What is being sold though? Tapes services. How is it sold? All through direct mail or through trade magazines? Uh that's that's I show it. I got it right here. He's running in trade mag. But he can't run more ads because John's ad produces so much business he can't handle anymore. Has to sequence it. Yeah. He has to skip a month and he still falls behind, right? Okay. Cuz he can't manage it. Yeah.

His personal delivery, too. But he's selling two things. That's his personal consultant. He can only take on so many. He has to call. But he's selling tapes now. I got him to tape one of the seminars. So, he can sell as many tapes at the seminar as he wants to. Right. See, my insight is that I just got is that again, it's coming out of the box. It's just a simple little thing about not sending them in an 8 by12 mail envelope, but sending it in a priority mail. I've heard those things, but I was

so into copying that model so much in that model box that my thinking could only go as far as changing the copy of my sales letter, putting different kinds of inserts in the same 8x12 vanilla envelope mailed first class mail address cuz that's the model. Nothing wrong with that. You can keep the model going, but try both. Take half or third of every name and every third name that comes in, do a priority mail. So priority mail is 3 to 5 days, right? I think 3 days guarantee days. Yeah, three days. It's not one to

three days. Yeah, the time is there, but the one thing is the way it's presented about the telephone call. I was just then do a telephone call. What about the uh second, third, just go back to first class on those further mail again? Yeah. Well, you're going to call every single person, right? But uh you know, I haven't read your sales letter yet or Yeah, I've read it. I want to think about it. I didn't know if we were talking about just going to these two steps and that's it. No, no. I mean, this is

just you could test different variations of it. Oh, you know what you could do? Then you could go back to your old way of doing, you know, just follow up the old way. What about our price points? You know, that's another box that I'm coming out of now. Um, that I I use that model cuz that's what Jeff and Dan said. You know, why am I at $700 for a course that really literally does make them an extra 15 or 20,000 in a year if they apply it? I mean, it's tremendous value. Well, because that's

what we were taught. I looked in the trade magazines, one of the other marketing packages I bought, they're charging $300 a month for 12 months, getting ready to go to 500 a month, and it's renewable every year. For what business? For heating, ventilation. I mean, it's not a program. It's not comprehensive marketing, but it's specific ads for new furnaces and air conditioning, but they charge $300 a month. I mean, you do get service. You get weekly faxes, quick faxes, phone support, truck buying service. A truck what what kind of business was it? It was another

company advertising to the heating and air that you buy their package and it's $300. They're 300 going to $500 a month renewable every year. Those are the Jam guys, right? No, it's this other company. Is that for an exclusive in your territory? Is that Yeah, it is by territory. Okay. Do you do an exclusive by population? Maybe. I don't know how I would ever do that at this point now because I've sold so many marketing packages. Yeah. I mean, I've got 45 clients in Denver. Now, out of those, you'd be lucky if five of them

do anything. That's the whole point. What's real interesting about my program and about this niche marketing stuff is when you make it so user friendly for these people. You know, you could say something like 5% of people actually do something with it. I mean, I'd say 20 30% of everyone that buys my program does something. Well, the yellow pages, you only have two guys doing the ad, right? But I mean like the referral programs and I mean because I get more response and testimonials than 5% of my list. I probably have more testimonials out of

the 1500 people that I've sold than probably Brad Richdale does out of the 500,000 he sold. Why? Because it's so user friendly and it's so applicable and always in their face. I mean, with a monthly newsletter, the tapes that I send out and stuff like that. So, someone would have to be freaking a complete [ __ ] to not take the package and within a year's time not get a couple of jobs out of it, you know? I mean, how many jobs do they need to make 597 bucks back or you don't got to sell

us though? No, I know. But, but what I'm saying is the point is that's why I think we really need to start testing these different price points because we are we're literally giving this [ __ ] away. Well, you just bumped yours up, right? Yeah, I bumped it up. I started mine at that time. You can change the package. That's what I was trying to say earlier. You can change the substantial. Just create the platinum package. You know, I just started the platinum package. I sell it for 1,97 at my seminars and at my uh

you know, I've I've probably sold uh 30 of them in the last month. Great. But the point is, you can create it, make it worth it, but make it worth it without the stuff that's causing you problems or whatever. Just just do it. Find out what you need to do to do it. That's it. If you figure those consultation calls are worth X units of value, find some kind of written material or a videape or something that replaces that X amount of value. You can purchase mine. Okay, let me tell you what to do next.

You know what? That's freaking a great idea. Put it on video. A video critique. Everyone's always ahead of me, though. I give Terry a bunch of freaking ideas and he's like got them done before I'm even thinking about typing them. Video critique. Terry, here's your next one. After you've got a big enough customer base, which you already have, you send them a very long copy, detailed sales letter offering an extremely expensive seminar. My suggestion is in the $7,000 range. What do you say tell him to do this? I mean, to come to a seminar live

at what point after he saw Well, he should do that when he gets back right now. And you know, I'm already giving seminars now for $1,000. Well, that's hear me out. Hear me out. Give a $7,000 seminar. All right. You just write a terrific sales letter and you have a killer sales letter go out. Send it to your entire list. Doesn't matter how many people show up for the seminar. Doesn't matter. Some people's going to show up. All right? And you audio tape and videotape the seminar and you have transcripts made from it. Then you

send another letter right on the heels of that letter, right after your seminar, and the headline is, "Here's how you can get the tapes of my recent $7,000 seminar absolutely free." And they get those free with a lifetime subscription or a 5-year subscription to your newsletter, which costs $200 a year. My model is $2,855 and about half of my subs are lifers. So, what I'm saying is the formula is you send a letter promoting a very expensive seminar, have the seminar, soon as the seminar is over, you send them another letter telling them they can

get the tapes of that seminar free cuz they were all hot to trot to go to the seminar, but they couldn't afford the seven grand. And then you give them the tapes when they do something else. that will make you more money than anything else in the life of that customer. Okay, John Carlton's going to tell Terry what to do with his 20,000 or 60,000 names of people who never bought. Oh, go back a letter with for something else for cheaper. It may have been a price point that they It's probably the price point. So,

create a package. Take half the [ __ ] out of your package and sell for half the price. See how that does. Then do it again. Take more [ __ ] until you're down to selling one tape or something. As long as the mailing is paying for itself. Yes. As long as nail it. mail. It can come from you or it can come from a different company, different product name, different geographic location, different. You don't owe them any explanation why the letters in the mail to them. They've already raised their hand, said they're interested. For

some reason, they were interested. For some reason, you don't know. They didn't reply. It's probably price. Pretend you're a competitor. These guys have just been picking up the gold coins. It isn't true that it's not worthwhile to pick up the silver coins. Now it's time to pick up the silver and the copper coins and so forth. Jonathan, Gary, you can fill in on this too about the chiropractor. You've got an ad that you're running for him that's a long copy ad that he runs in trade publications and he's you getting so much response. How does

he convert those? I notice there it says call him at a number, right? Then he's all I got to do is present him with the people calling. So they say, "Okay, what's the deal?" Then he's got to take off. And it takes him a certain amount of time on average to Flip them. And he has a certain flip percentage, you know, out of every 10 people calls, he flips one. He can only handle 120 people a year as client. Think about that. If I get 90 people to respond to his ad, 90 people, he's got

his regular work to do. He can only spend a few hours a day doing that. So, in the course of a month, he can't get back in 19. Now, isn't that a lot of tail there? He's got to take those calls himself. Yes. This guy is all tail. This guy's whole business is tail. It's all personal. It's him. He can't delegate any of this. He has to do it. That's his main business. Why haven't you given him the whole lecture on tail? Some people he's a consultant. People don't want the same thing. Well, wait. This

there's a better answer. The answer is that that's what the second ad is all about. I talked him in in the course of writing the first ad. I said, "You're giving all these similar stuff. Why don't you videotape the seminars and sell the video tapes? First, it'll be a profit center for you. Second, you may just give up consultation altogether. He got very intrigued. He went ahead and taped the seminar and all his clients bought it and he ran the ad. So, he's now thinking in terms of I want to start getting everything on video

and started multiplying. Yeah. We just did plugs in the back. Can you plug this in for us? You guys were going to ask questions and you said you had a list. Yeah, some some of them have kind of been covered, but you say test different sales letters where we test different ads. Just what are some of the things that come up for you when you say test different ads? You've seen the type of ads that we run, you know. What are some of the things just come up for you as to things we could do

differently? Well, first ads, sales letters, the whole game. Yeah. Okay. Different size ads, different look, different headline. That article, different copy, different appeal. It's all going to be the same appeal, a different story, a different guarantee, a different offer. But just changing the dollar amount can change the response. Yeah. Um, the 349,000 most people say, "See, I can't believe I said, you know." Mhm. mailing the ad instead of running it in the magazine. Do your boys have a formula for that, John. Uh yeah, I told him about it already. What? I can't remember what it

is. It's they don't need to break even on a mail to the magazine to know that the ad or better. No, I guess I do. Okay. All they need is close to break even on mailing to the magazine. They know the ad will do well. So, we test different we can test different ads by direct mail and then pick the best ones to go into magazines. But see, I would think that we would want to concentrate on mail more than the ads because the ads only reach a fraction of your potential audience. You know, first

of all, they have to get the magazine. Secondly, they have to read that particular issue. So, you're just hitting a really tiny little fraction of the market. And that's some of the things that you can test with the ad. But when you get into the thing of direct mail, I mean, it's endless. It's just endless things that you can test. You can test mailing a straightforward direct mail letter. You can test letters with different grabbers like a penny or a Japanese yen or a million dollar bill. You test mailing a tear sheet. You can test

mailing your letter with a post-it note attached. You can test mailing personalized letters versus just regular printed letters. You can test mailings where you have a sealed envelope inside the envelope with a cover letter referring to it. Did you ever call the people that asked for uh the free report that didn't buy and call them up and ask them why they didn't? No. After the fact. No. Might get a lot that might change the ad a lot too. Yeah. That might you got all the names? No. Then you just call and talk to the people

who didn't buy. How long afterwards? 47 hours and 22 minutes after they didn't buy. Can you got that? Mhm. Right. Any later than that, forget it. Yeah. I don't know exactly. I mean, until they've had it. I know ain't Joe. That's the question right here. And it didn't come from me. What does it say? When should telemarketing follow up take place? Many of my prospects after one week haven't had enough time to read my reports. Doing the model that I'm suggesting to you, it answers that question because you want that telemarketing done right away. Mhm.

What's interesting the priority they'll tell you if they say they're not gonna buy then you're on the phone with them. Why not? What is it about that ad or about the special report that you didn't like? Right? And you'll find with the priority mail they'll read it quicker than they will a mail piece. Sometimes a mail piece they'll put aside for a while but the priority mail they'll read it almost immediately because it's because that impact listen to this question. My sales letter is very similar to Joe Polish's. Some prospects have told me that it

is very vague because we offer free report saying I didn't teach them anything. They're right. It doesn't teach much, but it is very compelling. Should sales letters be more educational, revealing, or just sales letters? What do you think? We're offering free reports to these people, and it's almost looks as if we're going to teach him some. That's what they're requesting. How to learn how to get rich, which we're how to get rich is buy our [ __ ] Who asked this question? One of the teleconferences. What's his problem? He has my stuff licensed. Uh, I

can explain it to you. The model we've been taught says that we offer a free special report. Okay, you've seen that in my closing, right? So, for a free special report, bullet bullet bullet call. Well, when they get the free, they're expecting a free special report, which is really the system. They're expecting me to reveal all the secrets of the stuff to them in the special report when really what they get is a story. Yeah, I understand. But what is the question? What? Well, he's saying, well, those should I give the question why he doesn't

feel confident sending out because people are calling him up saying, you know, He promised me a small percentage. How many people? Yeah. How many this guy is getting one bad call in among 300 and yes the answer to this is shut up. No but but no it it it it could I mean do you think it would actually when I go up and speak and I'm going to speak on copyrighting. I get up and if I got 40 minutes I start talking at minute one and I divulge inside secrets and information. No teasing. just here's

what I do, here's how you do it, blah Blah blah blah blah. Tell and when they finally shove me off stage and I'm through and I'm I stop. It's all information. You can't overtell information. So, the answer is yes, you should have informative and educational stuff. The more you tell, the more you sell. That's an old salesman's ad. However, you guys got a package that's working. This guy is complaining about nothing. You cannot have a package that will not get people complaining about it. It's impossible. Cannot do it. If you're going to have a problem

with somebody complaining about that he didn't get what he thought he was going to get, you're in the wrong business. Get out. Go work for somebody. Get a 9 to5. Next question. All right. You're irritating me. Actually, I'm just irritated. I didn't sleep much. Well, like I, you know, I'll tell you what Phillips does selling Abraham's newsletter. They do tell you what risk reversal is and what maybe I'll tell you what Phillips does selling Abraham's newsletter is they lose their ass. They can't make it [ __ ] work. I know the inside story on that.

When when they got into it, me and John laughed at him. Whatever they do, put it out of your mind. It's not what should be done. Yeah. You know, the question really deserves a better answer. The real answer is when you're talking about how to write the best letter. There's a lot of different ways to do that. One of the things is you can and make the free report, tell them they need to have a long copy yellow page ad. Tell them they need to have a sales and then you can provide it for them.

You know, when I have a seminar on how to write copy, I Teach people everything that I can think of to teach them. Everything. I hold nothing back. And all the sharp people in that audience, you know what they do? Their first question is, are you available because they don't need another occupation. So your report is sort of analogous to me doing that. The people who say, and here's the report should give information. Yeah, I think it should. I think you should deliver on it, but you're going to deliver on it in a way that

is not a turnkey cookie cutter thing for these people. But that's not right now. John's right. That is not a problem that that letter is not working. It's kind of funny, but it happens a lot that people will get 100 favorable calls. They'll all be sales. They'll get three calls of somebody complaining and then they'll come and ask you what to do about that. I mean, what do you mean what to do about it? You know, comedy. He's right. Well, how about a crash course and writing PMS? What it says? What about a crash course?

That's what you do. Don't you tell them how to write copy? What's that? Don't Isn't that part of the thing that you're selling is how to write copy? You have a whole report on it, don't you? No, no, no. There is no crash course. I Brian K also sends some questions. He's like, do you want to ask these? Is the question how to write copy? A crash course in writing copy. Like your best secrets. Yeah. Like how to write copy. Don't write a letter like they're writing it to their best friend. Take your best prospects.

Call them up. Pitch them your wares. Do it over and over and record the call until you forget you're calling it. Wait till you have a really good call. Capture yourself a concert pitch. Have that call dictated and have it form the heart of your sales letter. This is just interesting for me. What What are your favorite books? What are your recommended books when you I never read war and peace. Uh right now I like the Travis McGee novels. What's that? I think you can get the war in peace in the bathroom book. Yeah. I

used to like penthouse till they got right next to us in the book toilet paper. Robert Collier letter book. Okay. Scientific Advertising. Okay. How to make maximum money in minimum time. That book sucked horribly. Um, well, you got the books that I talked about earlier, right? That's the ones that he's going to talk about. Cables and Big Schwab. Big Schwab and The Joy of Running in the Miracle of Fasting. Well, that's complicated. Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwarz. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think they should read that, though. That's pretty complicated. Yeah. You don't want to read

that. Yeah. read the uh David Oggoby stuff just to get a taste of uh you know what's better to read than copywriting books is books on how to be a better salesman. Really true. Go to the uh go to the library. That was good. Better and uh how I made a million in insurance or something. He was the first guy to make Oh, there's a lot of good books on sales. I was just going to say go to the library. I think it's a good fish. I think it's 620 in the Dewey decimal system. And

it starts on sales and it's it just says salesmanship and and I think 610 is marketing and 630 is advertising. I'm not sure but just go and get every book there and go through it. Do you guys know Jay Conrad live? I've never heard any like big marketer talk about him. The gorilla marketing guy. Oh, they wrote the book. They wrote all those gor he's he's sold more marketing books than anyone in terms of book bookstore books. It's you don't know him. Ever heard of rapping Collins and some of those? Oh, he writes street fighting,

gorilla marketing. Yeah. Yeah. Lemon didn't write um he wrote he wrote gorilla marketing. He wrote gorilla marketing and about 30 other books based around gorilla selling gorilla. That's all. Actually, some of the stuff's really good. I mean, I have a lot of his book. Some of it I disagree, but some of it's really good information for novice general people that know a lot about marketing and simple, easy to implement things. A good book. The best thing you could read if you could get them is the Thomas Hall direct mail guide. How would one get them?

The Thomas Hall. You wrote about that in Maximum Money. Call Lou Williams. I don't think Gallet's got him. Try to go. Call Lou Williams. How do I get a hold of Lou Williams? Terry will give you his number. Lou and Anita Williams. Lou Williams and Anita Williams or possibly Carl Deleti. What else? Next question. We're done with books. Get ready to have these books. He has he has two lists. He has a short list and a long list on all the copyrightiting books that he There's a new book out. I forgot the author, but it's

called How to Get Into Your Customer's Head. Yeah, I wrote that down already. So, I told you that there there's a new book out. This is serious. I saw yesterday. How to succeed in business even if you're not white. Yeah, there it is. Wow. That was a guy from Beatatric Foods. Get all the issues, the past issues, Cosmopolitan, and look under their business advice. Lesie, very very good. I got course it assumes you're a secretary in a in a Oh, how to attract clients for consulting royalty arrangements like my licensing deals. That's a good question.

How to attract clients for consulting and royalty arrangements such as I'm doing a lot of my licensing deals and right now I'll charge anywhere between 20,000 to 35,000 is pretty much what I've done with I don't want to say it on tape and another guy. But um you know what would you recommend in terms of me licensing my stuff to other people? So I teach them how to do this. Following what I'm saying? No. Okay. My course for carpet cleaners that I've licensed to seven different industries. The lowest price license I've done with anyone has

been $5,000. Okay. The highest price license I've done has been $35,000. Now I've done a couple of 35,000 deals, but the product was already created, which is that's what justifies the high cost. Plus Dan Kennedy writes the copy. For other ones, it'll be a little depending if the niche is really tiny, it won't be as high of a price. If the niche is bigger, there will be a higher price. I'm getting ready to do a new licensing deal with somebody who's not the product's not going to be created for them, and no One's going to

write the copy except them. And I'm I'm going to charge them anywhere between 20 to $30,000 in a royalty. Okay. Um, but I want to get your recommendation. How would you structure deals like that? because there's literally an endless supply of people that I can license my course to. So, they can take my product, reconvert it to a specific niche such as plumbers, painters, you know, roof. I I I don't know. That's out of my league. I mean, that's way out my I don't know. It's out my field of expertise. It's franchising. Jay's good at

that. Okay. Yeah, Jay is good at that. Okay. Questions. Well, I don't know Jay. So, you don't know Jay? No. You want to talk about how to reduce refunds and we I we know the dollar bill thing that you any other suggestions other than your dollar bill letter that says frame this you're going to make many more if you work out. What else would you recommend for speed up speed? What you do is you make a double your money back guarantee that this system will work if you follow the instructions. You give them four months

or five months or six months to follow the instructions. And if it doesn't work, they need to send you some evidence and don't make it ownorous, but you know, show me a copy of the sales letter that you sent and business cards, business cards, etc., etc., and give me your figures. Tell me when you ran the Ad in your local newspaper. You know, and you'll get almost no returns because it's too much work. But let me tell you when people make up their mind they want a refund before they order. That's generally the truth. It's

before they order. That's not all the time, but it's often the case. And the other part is when they get it and they find out it really isn't a magic wand that they had to do these things that's just unfair like apply for a business license, get cards printed, you know, get letterheads, get up in the morning. Yeah. Get up. Uh what's it? Chase Rebel started that the name of this little deal. So yeah, but I I'm the one who did it. I did that. Yeah. I'm Chase hired me because their refunds were really high

and I said, "Make it double your money back. What they had to do is send in a copy of their business license and a letter written on their letterhead." Well, the thing is most of these wannabes, they never got that far. They never did anything. You know, just reminds me Parker Publishing, a division of Apprentice Hall, used to sell these books that are going to change your life. They literally got to the point where you didn't have to read the book. All you had to do is put your hand on it or just keep it

in the room with you under your pillow. Yeah. As long as you had the book. It was osmosis. The other segment of people who want refunds are those who find out that you actually have to do these unfair things. Okay. What would you do in the actual package other than just a stick letter? anything else to reduce refunds since using this belief that people made up their minds before the fact and the best thing you can do well yeah there is there's a word that you probably want to write it's another note I'd suggest you

take and that word is bonding bonding you know if you pay attention to these people in a personal way or have someone do it call up hi on so and so just checking to make sure you got the package you know blah blah blah and stuff like that you know It's really harder to ask for a refund for someone that has taken the trouble to bond to you a little bit. The sale really isn't complete until the refund part is over. And you need to remember that you need to do a selling job every step

of the way. You need to do a better selling job to get the lead. You need to do a better selling job to get the name and address of the person who calls. You need to do a better selling job of getting the person to read the letter. You need to do a better selling job in the letter. You need to structure your stuff when you send it out so that the package is a selling job in itself. You need to make an offer right away to them that after you read this package and after

you implement it, etc., I'm going to send you this other thing that's free, too. So, you're giving them a selling job on keeping that. You need to do post purchase reassurance with letters. You Need a selling job on that. You need a selling job when you do a thank you for your order. A selling job when it's time to re. It's just all of this stuff. What you cannot take for granted is that you can do less than a complete and thorough selling job every step of the way. When I was selling encyclopedias door to

door, every once in a while you knock on a door and inside there are people who would say, "Thank God you're here for the Americana Encyclopedia." You know, we've been wanting to buy one for a long time. In fact, we have $350 set aside in the jar for that. And I made this mistake and some of the other salesmen did too at first is we would think, "Oh, wow. I don't have to go through the whole thing with this guy. Yeah, you do. You need to go from A to Z every single time. A to

Z every time. You know, I mean, I've seen a lot of guys astonished walk into a house, people saying, you know, we've been wanting an encyclopedia for years. We've got the money, etc. So, they skip the important parts of the pitch. You need to do that on your resell job, on your upsell, and all the rest of it. Is that what they had back in there? Just one encyclopedia. They had the Britannica funkin wagon probably three. They made just one night. Yeah. Ask Gary about Don Elm and magic floppy promotion. I don't know what that

is. That's Don Alm magic floppy promotion. What Don Alm does is something called funnel marketing. He runs a really small classified ad. The people call and they Have to pay for the call. They leave their name and address. He sends them a letter getting them to watch a free video for which they have to make a $20 deposit. He sends out the free videos and then the videos is a pitch in itself. And then on the floppy part of it, he follows it up by sending a floppy disc and the first part of the floppy

disc has a sales letter that really makes them hungry for the product and then he tells them you have the product. That's what's the rest of the floppy is. The rest of the floppy is the report and all you need is the magic key to unlock it because it's encoded. And then they call up, give you your credit card number, and you give them the key to uncode the floppy. And then after you deliver it, at the end of the product delivery, guess what? There is there's another sales letter to sell you something else. And

so he's charging people to read the rest of the sales letter pitching. Well, well, no, he the floppy has the sales letter and the information the sales letter is selling. Okay. It's business opportunity stuff related stuff. Does he make money? Yeah, he makes a lot of money and he has an incredibly good lifestyle. His is the most successful uncopied formula that I know about. What do you mean uncopy? No one's knocked it off. Yeah. You think we should be trying this? Well, kind of tricky. It's actually not all that tricky. I'm just kind of carefully

fashioning my answer to that, Joe. You shouldn't try something just because it's profitable because there's lots of things that are profitable. What you got to do is make your best guess about what your best option is. I don't think you should be thinking of new interest right now. I mean, not that you never should or anything. You're not done picking up gold coins yet. You haven't even started, right? because what I've already told you is probably going to triple your profits or more. That's the same is true with you. And one of the ways that

you can, and I'm really good at this, that you can [ __ ] that up. You know what it is? Is to get off on other stuff. You know, you haven't picked up these gold coins that are right there in front of you. Yeah. In general, I think you should make yourself aware of Don H and the stuff that he's doing just as you should be aware of a whole lot of other things. But with what you guys are doing, you haven't really scratched the surf. And by the way, what I told them to do,

that's what you should be doing, too. Doing it. I am doing that. Are you sending priority mail when they call? I'm going to I'm going to do that when I get back. I'm also going to take all my dead leads, meaning the ones that have been through the whole sequence and haven't bought. I'm going to go back to them. But, you know, I guess that's Maybe a question I should ask you. I've got 7,000 leads that have been through the whole sequence. I've got a million things I could do that you've talked about. What would

you do? What specifically should I do with those 7,000 leads? Should I send them a priority mail package? Should I what should I send him? Another version of different version of the sales letter saying it's been a few months since we talked to you. What would be the approach? Yeah. Um, you know, that's what we talked about before. Send them a half price thing. Pair down your package and just sell them a part of it. Sell them the tapes alone for half or something off something like that. Make one more shot at it and then

just write them off. You're not going to sell everybody. But if these guys raised their hand and said, "Yeah, I want some of this information. I'm interested." There's a gold bind in that. Yeah, but there's a time to give up, too. Yeah. Well, you could take a hundred of them and I'm nowhere near the point to where I've I've relentlessly marketed to them to where I should give up on them. It's been more neglect than just they just You got no response on it at all. No, no, no. It in his case, it's just neglect.

Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, they've been through some of them have been through three sequences and I stopped because I have, you know, when I first had my original partner that I bought out, I mean, there was a lot of leads from that. So, I mean, you know, don't you learn this as you go along, though, you know? Well, the best thing to do with that because names can get old and they can screw you up. Just send out a few. Send out somewhere between 100 and a thousand a week or something like that. Just

whatever's easy and send it out and keep track of it, see what happens and give them a shot and then come back and try them with a fire sale or type of thing. Just do one shot. My main client had 20,000 names that hadn't bought for a long time. And I talked them into going back with a fire sale. And essentially it was the tapes that everybody else had bought for I think 69 or 99 bucks and you could get them for 39 bucks. Tell them how many successful mailings went to that list selling essentially

the same product. 17 22 something like that one where they misspelled the label on the tape. Yeah, that's the So you can get it for oneird the price somebody made. I had to go back and label the labels are screwed up. Then when you call we're sold out we aren't going to have any for 3 weeks. Yeah, I had a guy call me a [ __ ] one time because the the video things weren't scuffed up. He was pissed off because they weren't damaged. Yeah, you can manufacture it. But but the the idea is is

to not piss off the people who have bought at a full price and ideally they're you know it's it's it's a it's the bargain thing. It's if price was the reason they didn't buy, you're giving them a chance to now address the issue again with a price that Yeah. And there's another thing too just as a general theme of it. You guys have copy that has been written for you which has been really good copy. You should be working on your copy continuously. That's true. Continuously. That should be the main thing you're thinking about. Like

with Sam, that's the only thing he thinks about. Isn't that true, Leslie? That was the point I trying to make earlier. Your coffee is your blood is your you got tired oxygen for your business. Places like Rooddale and Phillips, they are constantly trying to beat their controls and they almost take it to a ridiculous state. Sam and Leslie have five furniture stores here in Denver. They're opening two more. Just so I'm telling you, he does 400 ads a year. That's his main job is to get those people to come into the store. That's your main

job, too, to get, you know, more of these people coming on. Always looking for better ways to get in more. A crash course in writing copy is to record it. But that should be your main thrust. You know, ideally you should have someone like Leslie that runs your business so that you focus on the marketing. You know, you say it Joe and your stuff. You tell these people the change occurred when I found out there isn't any money in cleaning carpets. There's money in selling carpet cleaning. You know, and there isn't any money in managing

your business. The money is in the salesmanship. If you're in direct mail, you got to learn the direct mail game. the direct mail game is the copy and the mailing and the marketing. How to become a guru? That's a question that Brian Cape put on here. How to become a guru? How to establish yourself as the guru? You know, the real answer to that is just to self arrandise yourself shamelessly and incessantly. What's self grand? I mean, I know self a grand. Give me your definition of it. Blowing your own horn. It's what Gary and

Dan Kennedy and Jim do. Yeah. Yeah. Just call tell people constantly break down. Get get the book uh winning through intimidation by Robert Ringer. He calls it the leap frog. It's a leap frog theory. You don't have to climb every rung of the ladder. You just go to the head of the pack and say, "I'm number one." Yeah, it's leap. I do that in Grand Rapids when I sell in real estate. I do it now in real estate. So, same here. Yes. Number one. Yeah. Great. You You know how to do that. You don't have

to tell them what you're number one. You know how I can prove I'm the greatest copywriter in the world? Success. So, write my name. over and over and over. How to increase newsletter renewals? Well, mail more pitches. Mail more detailed pitches. And that goes back to something I said earlier. Do a complete job. Don't just do an offthe thing. Your renewal effort should be premium intensive just like your original subscription effort was. What are some of the things you've used for um newsletter renewals to get that rate? The best of all has been tapes of

seminars. You get the tapes of the Senar 3 if you read it. That's the very best one. This program continues with tape four. [Music] You know what Phillips does? Phillips uh will act if you sign on for one of their newsletters and they're the biggest newsletter publisher in the world. They they have a renewal pitch that goes out every month. They do at least 12. You know what does Philip sell? I have no idea. What do they sell? The biggest newsletter they have is the Whitaker wellness letter and then almost all the rest of them

are financial. Shabach Mutual fund letter the retirement. Desau Jackadamo got about 14 of them and you get pitched on once a week. You know, one of the keys I would tell you is just to do more marketing. Do more letters. It wouldn't be as safe as like you said earlier. You know, it wouldn't it's not as safe. But now that you have that model up and running, there's no reason that you shouldn't go the other. But actually once you have a space success if there are list of those same people I can't even begin to

entertain why you wouldn't mail them. I mean why wouldn't you I don't know. Give me another question from what's his face Pete? Yeah. All right Pete here comes one for you. Sorry Pete. I apologize in advance. Have Gary give a complete summary about how he would market an info product. For example, if he was selling a program to carpet cleaners, what steps would he take to market it? In what order would he do them? A, direct mail, cold prospects. B, lead generation direct mail. C, lead generation tradem. D, seminars himself. E, seminars, hire someone else.

F, endorsement mailings. G, free trial offers. H, telemarketing. I, step down offers, 1995 book. Not a bad question, but you're going to take it in the context of Pete asking it. Well, simple answer is he should do more of what he's doing now because he hasn't exploited that. Okay. really he just but you know about if you were starting yourself I would start to what you guys did I think generation yeah I think that's the best model to Start okay then everything else has been answered when selling info products does howard have a formula or

is the selling process mostly guesswork and testing well that's really a very good question which brings me to an extremely important point what you need to know is that your marketing should be a process not an event and it should be based based on feedback. Some of the best advice you got here was from Sam when he said you should call these people. Call them, ask them why they didn't buy. They'll tell you and then you modify the letter based on that. Look at it like this. Let's suppose that you play the guitar and you

sing and you get a chance to work in a bar. So you do 10 songs and the public loves one of them. They're indifferent to five of them and they hate four of them. So the next time you drop one of the four and you keep replacing it till now you got two that they love, four that they can tolerate and only four that they love. And you keep doing that over and over. And there will be a point at some time where you go in and you've got dropped dead 10 proven rave hits. All

right. The point is though, you didn't sit down and write those 10 rave hits immediately because you don't know. As you market, you will find out things. Keep what works and keep experimenting and use it like a ratchet effect. You know, you keep experimenting and once one comes in, well, that one works, then you keep that one. That's another piece of your repertoire, another piece of your Ammunition. But you should be experimenting with it all the time. You know, I think that the job, the main job of the guy who owns the company is to

either do the marketing or see that it gets done and improved all the time. The rest of the stuff you should have other people doing. That should be your focus all the time. That's Sam's only focus. Dennis Hasslinger told me something when I started in business and he was a hundred times smarter than I was about business. He said, "Imagine business as a complete circle." And you take the part that nobody else can do but you and you shade that in. You know that circle and maybe that's 10° of the 360. And if you can

hire somebody to do something, you should you should you know and you don't want to clean your own offices. You don't want to do your own typing necessarily. You don't want to cook the food that you have brought in for lunch. if you can just do that part that you do. I've had to learn that all over again, you know? I mean, I was trying to run a business. I had 15 phone lines. I mean, I'm terrible at that. I'm even terrible of seeing that it gets done. You guys's job should be to do a

lot more of what you're doing right here today, figuring out how to improve your sales and how to improve your profitability. And the rest all takes care of itself. I don't think that's really true. But there is no rest of it. if you don't take care of this part. Mhm. And it is easier to get help. It's much easier to get accounting help that's good than marketing help that's good. It's much easier to get someone to clean your offices and do your secretarial work. And it's much easier to get a photographer to take pictures of

your product, etc. That's something you just almost can't divorce yourself from is the marketing in your business. Every time I'm doing something, I ask, "Is there anybody I can hire to do this for me? If it is, I got him, you know. So, you know, I just finished Dan Kennedy's book on time management, which I thought was really excellent. You know, it explains a lot of his attitude. You know, he's really a keragin and he in the book, he's sort of proud of it, and I think he should be. Dan will not allow people to

waste his time. He figures how much his time is worth and he bases every decision he makes on that, you know, and it it's really a good way to do it. And he said right in the book, he said, "I don't know if you've read that particular one. Maybe I got it from you. I think I got it from Dan." He said, 'You know, I don't have a reputation for being the most sociable guy around, but he gets a lot of stuff done. And he's right, but I think you should go after marketing answers. Really,

like a shark after bloody meat. Go after marketing answers. Yeah, marketing answers and marketing solutions. How to get maximum attendance and sales at boot camps and seminars. The actual the way to do that is to do more marketing and to have more newsletter subscribers and have the people be more bonded to you. How to create urgency and crossell upsell on inbound calls because Sam does that all the time. That's a big factor in selling furniture is to create urgency. That's the key factor. How do you create urgency in furniture sales? Well, if you don't, you

don't make your monthly totals. It is urgent. Yeah, final final two days. Last chance. Never going to happen again. Happens once. IRS forces local furniture owner, right? You're in liquidation. We get special deals from the factory. Good for one week only. You know, buy it now if prices go back up. We've got a You know what? All kinds of things. What about upsells such as like phone upselles? For instance, Brad Richell, what he does is, you know, they sell the $39 information infomercial course, which used to be 79. And then they soon as people call

and they his philosophy is as soon as one sale is transacted they're ready for the other. Meaning as soon as you got okay $39 now would you like this and as soon as they buy this now would you like this and they keep going till they got everything. What he Said is every sale be it through the mail or whatever should be immediately followed with an additional sale which is something that we never started doing until I actually have Brad tell me that. So now we immediately upsell everybody either onto my Attack on Bait and

switch publicity kit, my tape of the month club, my indoor air quality videos, things like that. We close a lot of deals. That's when they're most receptive is when they're Yeah. As soon as they just Yeah. They're in that mode. And when they're in heat, you keep hitting them. What would you say about that? Any suggestions? Well, yeah. I think he's doing it too late in the sequence. I think the additional sale should begin before they've received the original product. As soon as they order, they should get a stick letter that reassures them they made

a good decision purchasing that product and say, "By the way, I want to tell you this something brand new just happened and you may be interested, too. And since you've ordered this other thing, if you order it right away, you get a special deal right now." That's the most profitable time usually in the selling cycle of a customer. And Phillips does that, as soon as you subscribe to newsletter, they send you an offer to it. before offers other newsletters. Yeah. Before you get the first newsletter, they want you to extend it and subscribe to other

ones, right? Cuz they've got you in the right mood. What do you think about his delayed billing idea? Okay. For instance, the way he did his $7,000 person seminar. What they did was they pitch a $7,000 person seminar, but people can pay for 10% of the seminar for $700, leaving a remaining balance of $6,300, which is due in 6 months, but only if you make 10 times the remaining balance of 63,000. I don't know the numbers on that, and it might be a profitable thing to do, but it's not the thing for you guys to

be doing at this point in time. I mean, for example, you should be on a plane right now getting back doing what I already told you to do, cuz you're going to make so much money doing that, you need to just suck that out before you do anything else. Yeah, these are good ideas, Joe. And they may be workable models, but you got to remember about something. Do you want Brad Richale's headaches? I mean, do you want 700 people working for you? Do you want to carry this financing? Do you want all of this stuff?

I mean, I don't know. Those numbers on TV are very deceiving. I've done a lot of television shows. I know the numbers on this stuff. The numbers that you quote in sales have nothing in relationship to what Braddale is making. Now, he may be making a lot of money, but you talk about management intensive [ __ ] Jesus Christ. You want to make the most profit of all if you're selling information. I'll tell you how to do it. You do it just like one of John's main clients, Rodeale is. They never ask for money. It's

always bill me later. And That is the most profitable way to sell information. Bill me later. But Rodale is this monster corporation. They have to sell the book. Then they have to sell the people on paying for the book. Bottom line, that's the most profitable thing you could do. Do you want to do it? I don't know. To address your question, if I were you and I were selling on payments, I would get a factor involved, wouldn't you? and give them a hell of a discount. No, you don't have to. What do you mean? Get

somebody to carry the uh the paper with the no recourse. Well, see, this is what we do. Since I offer a one-year guarantee, literally, if they don't pay the second installment, I have the choice of chasing after them like crazy. But what's that going to do? It's just going to cause them to refund. I can't send really hardcore collection letters to people. So, what I do is I send them string letters. I send them a letter with a string attached at the top of it that says, "Dear so and so, I've attached a string to

the top of this letter. Please tie it to your finger. It's a friendly reminder that you owe us money. But please send the string back cuz I need it for other accounts. But do you understand what we're saying to you? Is you should get somebody else to buy the paper from the jump, right? Who would buy that? I don't know. A ton of people. Any finance company? Is that the Open University type thing where they teach him factoring or was that real estate? Penino guy. Penino probably teaches it. But do you know what a factor

is? Okay. A factor is a guy who buys receivables at a discount. Just that simple. He takes a percentage off the top and assumes all the risk. Then they go after your payment. Yeah. So if they don't pay, then they go after them. You ref You get paid right away. What if they refund? Then you have to pay it back. Then they come back to you. So we have our percentage of refunds and we immediately pay it back. You use factors on your installment. Well, we use finance companies. It's not really commercial paper. It's commercial

paper. It's not really a factor. We just Are you borrowing it or are you actually selling it? Selling receable. We just sell it. We don't carry our own accounts, so we give them a discount. Carry on accounts, obviously. Oh, yeah. You make you make a lot more money if you can charge interest, but there's more headaches involved in running your own receivables. You got to deal with what you're talking about and it it takes away your time from doing what you really do best. So, what we do is we'll pay anywhere from 3% to 10%

depending on the kind of financing we offer. And they take it off the top and they immediately pay us the difference. And then, and it's the same way the master treasure visa works. Same thing in essence. Yeah, you pay a discount there, right? That's a factor. They're assuming all the risk. And with credit card companies though, they can draw out of your account if somebody's unhappy. So, it's a little harder to deal with them. It's much easier with finance company. But I say if you did a deal with people that buy your course and say

you don't have to pay for it for a full year, then obviously you're going to sell a lot more people. Someone else will pay us immediately for that and assume the rest, right? when you handle the returns, it'll be a minor part. The double your money back guarantee that Gary was talking about is they have to perform in order in order to get their money back. And 99.9% of them will not. So you virtually eliminate your returns overnight. They're down to almost zero under those circumstances cuz they have to give you proof of everything that

they tried to do. And if they did try everything you told them to do, they're going to be successful and then they won't want their money back. Same in your situation, right? Mhm. Exactly. But you made it too easy. You just said, "Hey, if you're unhappy, I'll give you your money back." They got to at least put out an effort. You know, you don't have to worry about it. Terry, since you're already doing those seminars, you should use it cuz I'm going to do this. It's what Brad did. You should up your price. You should

go ahead and do that, though. Up your price to the 7,000 to charge him the 14 or,000, whatever you're doing. And then You use your $7,000 seminar as your premium. See, the reason that Richdale does his $7,000 person seminar, he does not expect to get the 6,300. I doubt they even send the letter of money. He does it so he could go on TV and say 500 people attended my $7,000 person seminar. That's why he does it because a few did pay seven grand. But if they don't have the seven grand up front, they can

pay 10% down. He gets 500 people there. And it allows him to I guess that is legit to say 500,000. I can't argue with the fact that I think that's ingenious and it's slick, but I think it's just too far to the edge for me. There's another thing you need to remember is he's selling to a very different animal than you are. He's selling to the dreamers, the wannabes, the flakes, and everything. You're selling to real people, real businessmen who you're trying to establish a bond of trust with. And their main goal is they're already

in the business. You're merely asking the opinion of it. And you're telling me, I mean, I'm not I'm not out here doing it. I mean, I'm just asking your opinions of it. Okay. So, Sam, what do you recommend in terms of computers to personalize all this stuff? How do we do that? You find Gary, I asked him when you were out of the room before so I wouldn't have to hear this. No, you hired. You're the one that said that he can do all this stuff. I told the exact same thing on the phone last

week, the week before. I told him to tell him 100 times, you got to hire a computer geek. You hire a mailhouse. Tell me who So, I will just use your mailhouse. Who the hell are these? You You can use mine, but I'm sure you can find somebody just as capable where Okay, but in the meantime, since I don't know what these guys do, I'd like to use yours as a point of reference and then if I want to compare because it's called direct mail services. You have their phone number. Yeah. Uh 9224507. 9224507. Right.

Now, what quantity, how much do you mail out? How many pieces do you mail out? Thousand a month. Okay. See, that for them that's not very much. They they do larger runs, but I could do the whole list of carpet cleaners throughout the country once I test the piece and it works and I'll roll out the whole list. Right. Yeah. So, test is you're going to pay a little bit of a premium to do a thousand. Who do I ask for? Uh Scott or Dan? Scott. Or Dan. Or Dan. Okay. 9224507. Right. What do they

do? You email them the copyirect? Yeah, you can you can do it by email. You can do it camera ready and then they'll reset the first page with the personalization and keep the back page the same or the other pages. I always print the signature in blue and then personalize the letter and then they match them when they go in the envelope. And we use like a typewriter font for the name and just a return address without a name. Put a live stamp on it. First class stamp or bulk? Uh first class. Never go bulk.

Okay. And to go to a,000. It's a waste to go bulk. How many do you mail then? 10,000. No, we mail about 30,000 once a month and sometimes I'll go twice that. And what what's the cost per piece then you're doing at that rate? 30,000 30,000 personalized about 50 cents. 50 cents a piece personalized first class stamp with a stamp. What stamp? Okay. And it's what? Two sheets of paper. Two large. I I'll I'll print some for you. Do they get you the list or do you buy No, it's my list. And then how do

you get it? I have my own house. We have an unhouse list email or on disc. I just want Oh, you mean how they get the list? I send it to them on mag tape. They'll take it on disc. They'll take it any Who do you buy your list? I haven't seen it. Oh, database America was the last place I bought a list from. But he's talking about doing a mailing out his whole list, too. Just put in now eight. Who didn't buy seven? You got 7,000 names. Just give them your names. Tell them the

format that they're in. put them on desk or however you do it and they'll they'll do the rest. There are only I don't even know 10 copywriters in the country that are top are worldclass copywriters. Having said that, I should amend it by saying that you can hire. There's hundreds if not thousands of good copywriters. They own businesses and I'll tell you how they got that way. They build a business. They were making a lot of money. Then they needed to do better advertising they thought or more marketing and they'd look under advertising agencies or

get a list of copywriters and they'd hire these guys and they would keep [ __ ] it up over and over and over. So eventually the guy would say, "Wait a minute, I don't need this [ __ ] I know how to sell to my people." And he would do it himself. That's like Ben Suarez only Suarez had me guiding him, you know. But once the people can really write copy, if they have business sense at all, they keep doing it for themselves because it doesn't make sense for them to work for you. The best

kind of copywriters you can possibly have is a guy like me. And I'll tell you why. It's because I've written copies that have built giant businesses for myself and other people and then realized anytime I'm in management, they [ __ ] up. But it's not just the writing of a copy. It's the salesmanship that you got to understand. I learned to do what I do. Knocking on doors, selling encyclopedias. That's where you learn how to do it. Uh, whoever the hell is listening to this tape, this is day two. Pamela Yellen is here now. And

we're all here together again. We're wide awake and ready to go. John Carlton's leaving in a few minutes. He's going to talk for the next 30 minutes straight. Yeah. And what did you want me to talk? By the way, you know, I mentioned you guys the best thing you could do is hire somebody like John. He's not taking any new work. And I didn't realize I came out here when Gary asked me to come out and of course talking to you. I I wanted to meet you and I I really enjoyed talking to you and

of course it was a real pleasure talking to you looking at your stuff and it's it's just you know it's an open invitation to talk with you and and do things like and I really enjoy doing this but I'm booked up. I couldn't take any more clients except for an act of God. So I really came out here hang out with Gary and do this stuff. It's just it pays off in ways you know down the line you know in a lot of different ways. So well we'll stay in touch with brain stuff. I didn't

I I didn't know that Gary had had mentioned that to me, but well, I I didn't till yesterday, you know, just seeing what the you know, especially somebody like Terry is what what he needs is somebody just spending a lot of time on all that from Wo to go. All you guys all you guys the most important thing we said yesterday was the intensity of the of the need for copy his lifeblood and it's it's really true and it's really obvious of course coming from a copywriter but you know I think you guys you guys

heard it you know and that's what you need. You definitely have to start making relationships with writers and doing things like that. And I wish I had time cuz you know you guys are really interesting. You guys, especially the energy you bring to this whole thing is really kind of neat. You know, it's an entrepreneurial thing as opposed to the corporate clients I have which are almost like dealing with dinosaurs, you know, monolithic slugs moving around. One of it works for Dale. How many people have to sign off on your pieces? Unbelievable amount of people

have to sign off. There's like a dozen departments waiting waiting for me. Does the cop I mean I'm assuming the copy is just wanting to be changed like every step of the way, isn't it? Yeah. The lawyer puts his two cents in. He says you can't use this word. Why? With no reason. He's he's justifying his job. The guys in the marketing department have NBAs. He have no clue how to sell anything. The first thing I did was at sex ad for sex a man's guide. Is that the book that you said you had? Right.

And they were just outraged and they said this isn't going to work. And I got to see the comments because my AE sent the comments back to me and I wasn't supposed to see them. They didn't think that the copyright was going to see them. They were just outraged. They were saying this copywriter is unethical and he doesn't know what he's doing and nobody's going to read this. Who's going To respond to this? And so I asked for them to get in a meeting. And if you have you have to imagine here's all the haunchers

of Rodale, the biggest mail order place. And there's like five of the big marketing honchos in this room and there's me on a little speaker phone there. I'm actually in my house in Reno in my underwear talking on the phone. And I I was yelling at this little box they said was kind of moving and jumping on the table as and I got them to mail the piece and you know it's been the control for over a year now. Yeah. It chang it's tough dealing with the clients and I have some entrepreneurial clients, my boys

in Viselia, the ones that do the self-defense stuff and the golfing stuff and it's much more fun dealing with them. It's a smaller amount of payback and stuff because they're just not mainly in the great volume. Yeah. A home runs for companies like Phillips and Rodale is worth a lot of money but Oh yeah. It's just an enormous amount of grief. What's the deal when they start changing the sales letters like modifications and stuff? I mean, they usually don't. What they do is they go out and they hire another Benzinga or Carlton or or Albert

and get a just they'll just shell out unconscionable amounts of money and bring in a whole new thing. It's like Gary made the observation and it's a point are you recording this? This is a point well worth taking is that these corporations have lost sight with where they came from which is Rooddale started with I think his name was Pete Rooddale and he was a guy like me or Gary or you and he started writing letters and making books and sending them out then it became a huge corporation. Now what they have forgotten is that

advertising is often a process and they like to treat it as an event. They want the ad to come in kind Of fully blown past muster with their lawyers and like that and go out and make them a lot of money. One of the first jobs I did with Gary was a job for a guy out of Atlanta who was selling diet product. And Gary was a much I wrote the letter, but he made me do 17 drafts of that first letter. And each draft was different. The 16th was the worst of the bunch. And

the 17th mail for a year and a half, but would have never gotten to the 17th if we had tried to make, you know, the one letter just write it, bang it out. And the first one, who knows what the first one would have done, was certainly not as good as that 17th version. So I I do many versions. It's a process. And with with my entrepreneurial clients, sometimes with that chiropractor ad I was showing around, we sent that first ad out by Federal Express to 200 of his people that he had called for but

hadn't become clients. And he was expecting a big response. I said, "Don't expect a bigger response. We just we may get one or two people and we'll just, you know, we'll see how that goes." It didn't work. He didn't get any calls, I don't think. I don't know why, what happened, whatever. And then I said, "Okay, let's not change the ad. Let's run it in the journal for American Chiropractors, which is, I think, what one of the one of the bigger journals." He ran the ad and he got he got swamped with replies and he's

run it run it four or five times. So if we had taken that as an event and done that first Federal Express mailing and and that was the be end of the ad. It would have never gone anywhere else. But he listened to me and he went ahead and ran it in in the magazine and it's it's turned into you know it's turned his life around. So it was a process and we may have to change that ad or do some other things. You know of course the ad will get tired. You know the best

example of that is Ted Nicholas. He wrote 10 times as many words to advertise his book, How to Form A Corporation, as there are words in the book. Really, 10 times as many words in the ad. And you know, he changed the headline, changed the offer, changed the sequencing, everything. And of course, that thing's still going strong. And I was reading on the airplane on its current incarnation that somebody else owns it. It's still going strong. The letter I wrote in 1968 that as of two years ago they mailed 600 million. It's still being mailed.

It's a little bit different incarnation, but we must be approaching a billion letters of it. See that? And you know how long it took me to get that right? That was my first successful sales letter. 18 months of constant. But you know, I don't have to do that anymore. But you wrote this. That's me. I got that in the mail the other day. Did there still? It's based on the original letter that I did. You know, it's No. Yeah. I've never seen this one before with the pictures and everything. They would test every fraction of

the weather. They would test all different parts of it cuz they knew that when they, you know, by sometimes changing a fraction of a percentage, it could mean millions of dollars because they're dealing with such a broad base of games, right? But but you come away with nothing other than the fact that advertising is a process and not an event. And yet corporations at Madison Avenue, they like to treat it like an event. You know, the big buzz still from Madison Avenue is that 1984. You need an envelope. I'm sorry, John. I just want to

show you something before you go. I just need an envelope. Any envelope. Remember the big Apple ad that aired one time at the 1984 or was it the 85 Super Bowl? It was announcing Macintosh or whatever it was. It ran one time at halftime in the 1984 Super Bowl. It was done by Ridley Scott, the guy who did, what did Ridley Scott do? He did aliens. And they ran it one time. It blew their entire budget for the whole year. And they said that that made the company and did things. Well, it didn't really because

the company kind of floundered after that, but that set the tone for this idea of an event, advertising as an event. And it was really a bad thing. Now, everybody that does an ad, whether it's for the new Cadillac or something else, they seem to think that PR and making an event and, you know, flowers flying and parades and stuff is somehow going to translate into sales. And it doesn't. Sales is always down. I'm going to show you something I want John to see before he leaves. I invented this. I think you know about it.

Sam can do this. This isn't those cheap magic tricks, is it? No. Oh, it's a handwritten thing. Done by computer though, right? Terry, use any of the handwritten font programs, Sam? Are those all bogus? Yeah. I first heard about those 10 years ago. And what they was you would write in your own hand every letter, but you do all the vowels two or three times cuz they would random pick the vowels, right? What happened to those programs? I never seen anybody use them. They're still out there, but nobody uses them. Why? Is it too expensive

to implement? No. They don't increase any response. crazy. They don't do anything. What What about just ease of if you're hand addressing envelopes and what about just the ease of doing that as opposed to making it look like your hand address doesn't matter. Just use a courier or a typewriter. Sam can have his letter. Knock knock that right off the yellow. Yeah. Do you shop? It's hard. Preprint the yellow. So when they're printing the address, they take the name and use the handwriting to do the whole But I was thinking of doing it. So this

is all stat. I'm going to test it though. Not the whole thing, right? Do it either way. Yeah, you preprint it with the But this part isn't preprinted. All right. All this print out at the same time, right? And how much is it? It's about the same as doing the address cuz it John really until you are who is your uh And you have a disc highlighted. Huh? Okay. Gary wrote on an envelope. Let me see if it'll work better if I do the yellow first. Read that onto the tape too so they don't John

don't read this until you are alone. Gary and that's on yellow on the Sam Fishbine who is here can get that automated for no more than the cost of addressing an envelope. Can you imagine the added impact that's going to have? So we're back to teaser copying now. His letter shop can get this done on all the mailings for almost nothing else other than the cost they would charge you for addressing it anyway. Oh yeah, it's just a little bit more for programming. Have you done this on a letter? No, but he can do it.

I talked to him about it. I mean, it wouldn't have to say this. Not that complicated. It's like every envelope has its own post-it note, personalized post-it note on the front of it. And you know, you can do one for dentist and say for Dr. Smith only, not to be opened by staff or kit, make sure your staff doesn't read this letter. You know, my favorite opening line of any letter I've ever wrote says, "Dear Joe, this letter is being sent to you by mistake. Not one person, not one person called the [ __ ]

or be confused about that. I was always particularly proud of Martha. Where have you been? Oh, a sneaky copy. To sum it up, what are your last two words? The most important thing that we talked about was copy is lifeblood. In your initial box or what whatever you call the template you were using makes a lot of sense and it works very very well. There's a X factor there that wasn't introduced originally because it's down the road as Terry has found out. Terry, how long it take for your letter to get tired? A year. My

ad is getting tired after about 6 months. 6 months. Okay. So, so it was down the line. It's an X factor. By bringing it up before he got into it, it would have confused him. Now he knows the copy gets tired. What do you mean by X factor? Xactor means it was an unknown element of in the campaign. In other words, whoever gave you all the written material, Dan and Jeff Paul. Oh. Well, the thing is you're you're in a different stage of development now. That's all. Dan gave you the very best prototype you can

work with. The safest most likely high percentage chance of success and it worked. But now that that is a success, that doesn't mean that you're married to that. You can keep that and go through another membrane and you know Yeah. And and the next thing you need, you know, is that copy does get tired. It was an ad is not a monolithic single event that can be reproduced over and over and over. It's kind of like if you gave the same parade every year for St. Patty's Day, people get a little tired and they wouldn't

keep coming. You got to change it up a little bit, Right? So you can't look at copy as this monolithic structure that once you've got it down, you you wipe your brow and then then you're off to the races. It's a changing living breathing thing that you need to start developing relationships with copywriters. need I as reluctant as you are, you got to start getting into copy your yourself because you can't unless you bring a copywriter on board and either making part of your business or hire them or start working with freelancers, you're going to

have to start sometimes making spot changes at the last minute, you're going to have to understand what is needed about it. It's like if you are totally dependent on your horse and you're going to go live somewhere where the horse is the major mode of transportation, you better learn the care and feeding of the horse because the horse becomes very, very important to you. Well, I do write a lot of my own copy. It just takes me forever. Well, it it's the same with a lot of people. For a job for Rodale, it takes me

6 weeks. You're talking one what? One package, one eight page letter and a couple of inserts. Eight. You're talking eight weeks of slaving that computer. No, no. The actual slaving is probably two weeks. But to gather the information, I call it jelling. And it's what a lot of clients don't understand because if if you were seeing me, sometimes it's just staring at the wall. And what I'm waiting for is not inspiration, but for the various facts and little sales detective works to kind of gel together. Sometimes if you're lucky, you get this little aha experience,

which is all it comes together. For example, I was given one guy was a golf product and essentially what it was was a guy who was going to show you how to do this swing that when You hit the ball, it would go farther and straighter. Sam actually bought from the ad. Well, after talking to the guy, found out where he got his idea for this new swing was he watched a one-legged golfer pop up to the ball. You stand on one leg and the guy hit it and he hit it 360 yards straight and

true down the fairway. Nobody else paid any attention to this fact that 20 years ago this guy had seen a one-legged golfer and realized that you can actually lay on one leg and and it was the whole way that he approached the shot. But after that, he never brought up the one-legged golfer until I interviewed him over and over. And at one point, he said, "Oh yeah, I remember 20 years ago I watched this guy do it." And that's what sparked it in him. So my headline was onelegged golfer. I forget. I I call it

the onelegged golfer ad, but it's in the headline. amazing golfing scene revealed by onelegged golfer. Shows you how to hit T- shots like a howitzer cannon, something like that. And that ad has been running for two years now and it's brought in just tons and tons of money. But it was a little tiny tidbit of information that nobody else had saw and I I saw it and it just came to me. So that was like that little thing that happens. What you're doing is you are looking for a needle in the hay stack and you

don't know if it's even a needle. You don't even know what you're looking for. What he's saying is wait here before you go cuz there's wet lime on the stack. The other thing is sometimes with Rodeale, there is no inspiration. It really it's they just got a book that really doesn't say a whole lot and I got to slog it out. It's like digging a ditch. It's like I got to start here and I got to in there and I got to go 6 ft down. It's got to be straight and it's going to be

a lot of dirt and there ain't no getting around it and there's no way and I just got to get down and start digging. Now I'm very lucky and Sam and I get to call Gary and Gary and I get to jaw back and forth and Gary will frequently give me ideas and we'll go back and forth and he's watching on my show. I look at his copy and he looks at mine and we trade up. So When you start talking with other people a lot of times they will see things that you don't see

or they'll take a different spin on it. A lot of times it is spin control on just boring dull products. How do you take something like a foot stool and make it exciting or sexy or sell it? But yet that's what you want to do so you start getting used to it. That's why yesterday I said one of the secrets to writing great copies is fall absolutely head over heels in love with what you're writing about and just translate that passion into copy and you're off to the races because that stuff shines through. That was

the point of when I interrupted you was that there's like three stages. One is that there is something there that will come out. The other is that sometimes it's just journeyman work. You know, writing that fourth letter to somebody, you know, it's just it's just you got to do it. I mean, that's I you know, I say that I say that in a way that is not derogatory, but but you are you got to love every project that comes your way and and you got to love every part of it. And it's no matter how

distasteful it is to you, if that's the job you got to do, that's what you got to do. If you're really tired of it, if you you should like what you're doing anyways. And the best thing about you guys is that you're going to be writing about something you're doing. And if you don't love what you're doing, you're in the wrong business, first of all. So that's a So I got to assume that you already love what you're doing. You like dealing with people. You like bringing the money in. You like being your own boss.

You like all this stuff. So just gather that energy, that kind of passion and just focus it. Focus it on what you're writing about. Let that shine through. Let that come through. That will cover a lot of ground that the technical proficiency of your writing, you know, the lack of the technical proficiency, the passion will cover those little holes in your writing style. Let's talk about because you uh I want to hear what you have to say about the tail quickly about getting rid of the tail. Getting rid of the tail. Well, I not necessarily

getting rid of it, but maybe uh making it more manageable. I got into this business. I started working with Jay Abraham a lot and through Jay at Jay's divorce party, I met Gary and I got to watch Jay deal with the tail firsthand. And what he means by tail is a servicing after you sell the product. Okay? In other words, Jay had this great idea and it still is a great idea and that is added value, added perceived value. And it's like throwing in everything but the kitchen sink. If you want to charge $4,000 for

a product, just keep piling it on. I'll do this. I'll do this. You get this. You get this. And that's something that these packages have that you had that Dan Kennedy did. That same kind of style. You said that Jeff was using Jay has a little secret. Yeah. You just don't don't. However, however, I saw the agony from that stuff and I had spent my life trying to reduce stress in my life rather than add stress. One of the reasons I went out. So when I went with Gary, one of the things I liked about

Gary when we clicked was that Gary really didn't like much about the tail either. But we did it on our first seminar. First seminar we put a big tail on that thing, but I suffered for a year on that thing and it just drove it home to me that because the next seminars we gave, we charged the same amount of money and we had no tail and it didn't make any difference at all. And so I said start taking a close look at at what you're doing. If you offer them 45 days of consultation over

the next year, okay, that's a pretty good thing to offer. I'm going to you can say copy by I'm going to hold your hand. You can call me anytime you want to. Blah blah blah. Now think about how could you give equal value yet not have that personal contact. I will give you 14 written Reports of all the major questions that I've had in the past over those 45day consultations with past clients. You won't have a question that I can't answer. And if by chance there is some question you have answered, then here's my fax

number and I'll get back to you within 2 days. So then you don't have a phone call. You don't have the guy calling you. you get a fax and a guy has this question written on the facts, forcing them to sit down and write the question on the facts will eliminate a lot of those questions. All the [ __ ] questions vanish because they look at and say that's stupid. They don't want to do it. So the stuff that comes to the facts is going to be thought out and at least it's a real question

and then you can think about it and you can actually write them or you can pick up the phone if you want. You can answer it. You're going to eliminate a lot of stuff yet you're still giving them the same value. Right. Right. So you can write it up in the same way. I'm going to hold your hand with these special reports rather than with these phone calls. I'm going to do with the special reports. You can charge a lot. You can charge the same amount of money, vast amounts of money, and yet there's no

tail. You could index the book and it's it's like having me right at your desk looking over your shoulder. And unfortunately, I have to get going. And again, it was it was it was a pleasure uh talking with you guys. Yes. Thanks. Nice meeting you. Thanks, John. You know, probably good. This just my idea. I think it would be real beneficial for me to hear Gary do to Pamela what he did to us yesterday. Okay. And then hear, you know, his slant on her also benefit her a lot. Okay. Uh, Pamela. Uh, I need your

name, address, and telephone number. All right, Pamela. Mhm. What's your middle name? Gay. G A Y. Uh-huh. Y E L L E N. Correct. Your address? 39. Vista, Australia, which is E S T R E L L A South. Okay. Laney LA Amazon Mary. Why? Prospecting and marketing institute. Okay. And what's that business about? Marketing, consulting, and training and speaking to specific niche industries. In my case, recreational vehicle dealers and life insurance agents and managers. And you teach them to do something. Wait a minute. RV dealers and life insurance what? Agents and actually and separately

managers. Life insurance agency managers as well. And what do you teach them? Direct response marketing, prospecting techniques, getting more people calling them, getting a steady, consistent, predictable flow of customers, as well as providing some of them. I'm doing more turnkey marketing systems, copywriting, and preparing a whole system for my clients that they can implement on their own. Okay, let's start with how you get a new client. Do you run ads, mail letters, or whatever? How does a client first become aware of you? Most of them will well of course I I do a fair amount

of speaking too. So I'll they may become aware of me when I'm speaking to one of their associations or professional meetings or whenever whatever it is. But most of the people that we've gotten coming into our funnel in the last two and a half years have come through ads. Just like me and Terry trade magazines. Trade sametick lead generation free report. Yeah. Selling that model. You run full page ads? Primarily twothirds page ads. Usually start testing them smaller and then blow them up to 2/3 page ad. I haven't run very many full page ads. Okay.

Typically, what would it cost you to run an ad? About 1,600 bucks. 15,600 bucks. How can those people respond? Primarily through the lead capture 800 number. They call into the 800 number, listen to the recorded message, leave their name and address. Now we've got their information. But on the teleconference that we did last week or the week before, uh the other lead generation that we have been experimenting with was postcard lead generators and ad lead generators that were offering a a free subscription to the newsletter with $7 to cover postage and handling. Okay. Well, let's

just stay with it. We'll get back to that one. Now, they call an 800 number. They listen to a message and leave their name and address. Who does that for you? Concord probably. Yeah. Same people we use. Okay. And what's the capture rate in differs uh in the markets, but my best capture rate in one of my markets is about 90 some%. My lowest capture rate is around 50%. Okay. When you run a $1,600 ad typically, how many prospects would you expect to get? Depends on the market. Um the RV market is much smaller. the

ad prices are about the same as in the life insurance industry where I might have readership of anywhere from 50 to 200,000. Mhm. So, it's going to be quite different. But, what I'm really getting at is how much a lead cost. My RV market, my leads are have skyrocketed. I've only been in the RV market for six or seven months. What did the ad do when it started? When it started, it was pulling actually, and it wasn't even a two-thirds page. I was still testing the smaller sizes. It was pulling for about 1,200 bucks. 1,000

to 1,200 bucks. Pulling about 40 leads. Each ad would pull about 40 leads. What's that? $30 a lead. Yeah, it was I think it was running about $30 when I first started. What's it run now? It's over 50. Okay. And once you've got their name and address, what happens next? We send them the threeletter sequence converting. Oh, just to go back and answer your question again, in my life insurance market, I I'm for like a $1,600 ad, I've gotten as many as 900 calls off of that. What What's the typical lead cost then? Um, most

recently 25 bucks a lead. 25. 20 to 25 bucks. Okay. They did a threeletter sequence, too, right? On the RV, how many people buy as a result of the threeletter sequence? The RV, it was about 7 to 8%. Okay. And what about the life insurance leads? Well, we stopped doing the special report lead generation for that because it had stopped pulling as well. And so we decided to test this. Uh but what did it do? What did it do? Yeah. Depending on the price that we were selling the program at, it was converting as high

as 18.75%. And as low as 6%. Okay. On this RV market, what was the price of what you were selling? We only have one option on the RV market currently and that's uh $6.97. Okay. And your fulfillment cost is probably around $60. Mhm. And the life insurance sales, we have a program at 287 and then one at $477. And what's your average sale? What do you think? 360. 360. So what would you most like to learn here? Well, I feel like I would have probably come here anyway just to hear what you all had to

say. I need to find other ways to get customers into my And how does your speaking go? How does that work? Well, I used to dound and some dates a year to the insurance industry. And that's Yeah. And I'm real tired. I got real tired of that. I didn't want to do it anymore. And um right now the only speaking dates I seek are where it's an association's really a good opportunity or I'm marketing my services to some of the associations as fundraisers so that when they bring me in to speak instead of it being

an expense to them they're actually going to make money on the deal and I'll make more money. But how did that work for you as far as getting customers for your material? Oh that works great. I mean uh cuz if I can get in front of typically if they bring me in and speak to say a life insurance association there's going to be two 300 people there I'll sell an average of about 25 to 30% of the audience and of course you know there's there's followup that could be done with the uh other people although

I have not found that type of follow-up to be particularly profitable in the past those who don't buy at the seminar I've Done some marketing in the past to those people and have not been successful in converting them but if you have 200 people at seminar Mhm. Maybe 60 will buy. Is it that 200 buying units? I don't know if that's 200 buying units because of sometimes couples. See, that's the way that I always look at a seminar. You have 100 people in the room. How many of those are actually buying units if they're there

at the partner? So, in a room of 200, you probably have 170 buying units. In the insurance industry, yeah, in the RV industry, it'd probably be less than that. But, yeah. And how many sales at what price? I probably am selling two low back of the room. I'm selling it for 197. And I've tested some two options, 197 plus, but have not really figured out a way to But like if you're selling at 197, how many would buy? 25 to 30%. Of the 200. So you're talking about 50 to 60 people, say 50 sales at

200 bucks. Now, did they buy your program because of what you talked about? Mhm. So that's $10,000 in sales that you can expect to generate from a room of 200 people, right? Plus whatever back end we might be able to get out of them after that. these trade magazines that you advertise in, how many people are you reaching there? Oh, in the case of the insurance industry, it could be anywhere from 50 potentially. I'm assuming that's how many people get the publication. Say 50,000, 40 or 50,000 up to 120 to 40,000. But with the RV

industry, it might just be a few thousand or tops 7,000. How did you happen to pick the RV industry? When I went to Dan's marketing boot camps, I went with the idea that I knew for some time that I had to develop a new market. The insurance market is been in the skids for a couple years now and less and less profitable and harder and harder to work and it's shrinking. The industry is shrinking about 25% in the last 2 years. So, um, I knew I had to find another one and I put it off

already for a couple years cuz I was just kind of fat and happy in that industry. And I trying to think of some natural markets of some connection I would have with the market and I I had just an intuition of the RV industry since I used to be the national sales manager for a regional publication where I got to know the dealers, the manufacturers and that sort of thing. Have you ever mailed a direct mail letter to these people? I uh did not test it. For one thing, it doesn't cost very much to find

out. No, you're right. I mean, I'm the first to say I'm good at taking orders and and there are times when I I will fight, you know, say, "Hey, I really want to try This. I really got to I got to do this." And I will do that sometimes, but I haven't done it yet with that. But that's one of the reasons I'm here because I know that there there've got to be other ways and I'm willing to test them. Let me ask you a question on the insurance. You said there's about a hundred seminars

a year for the insurance. I used to do that. I don't do that anymore. They still have the seminars or Oh, you can go into every little agency, but you're only talking to like That's what I used to do, agency seminars where you're talking to like anywhere from 30 to 100 people at a time at seminars. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, but you go to their site. Is that it? Yeah. You go to their site. But now what I'm what I'm trying to do is more and more boot camps where I fly them into Santa Fe

and I can stay home and sleep in my own bed. Mhm. Yeah. It's just the whole getting sick of the Road Warrior thing, you know? I mean, I can make a killing doing seminars. I'm not kidding you. I could do the type of seminars where I pull in 20 to 30,000 net every weekend and I wouldn't run out of them, right? I just hate them. The travel sucks. It's in moderation. I mean, it's like drinking, you know? I mean, after so much of it, you just want to puke. That's what it is with with um

but you know what I think happens when you start giving seminars is at first you really Get off on the agilation and you know holding court and the people all around you and after a while you realize these aren't teenage rockstar groupies that are you know these are fat middle-aged men just like you you know who want to suck your brain dry and uh yeah it's kind of thrilling to have someone ask for your autograph in the beginning, but after a while you're like, you have no idea. Oh, I have people knock on my door.

I mean, you know, I've done big I I remember Ruff had this seminar and it was a big monster seminar in Orlando and I walked in and I was in the like where the, you know, the brochures are and everything. And I was talking to the woman there, some guy. He says, "Are you Gary Halbert?" I said, "Yeah, you sound just like yourself." you know, and then pretty soon someone got out and I mean I was going to the bathroom taking a leak and there's guys standing beside Let me ask you a question. You know,

guys knocking on my door and it, you know, it got I really didn't like that at all. I cannot imagine being Jaylen over somebody. I mean, it just takes your life away. I mean, if if you were really famous. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was backing out of my driveway the other day and I couldn't get out. Some guy was pulled up in front of my driveway at my house. I've got to go to a doctor appointment. And this guy's he's sitting there and I'm saying, "Can I help you?" And he's saying, "Yeah, are you

Terry Hunterfeld?" And I said, "Yeah, well, I just came up to Grand Rapids to get your course." And he wanted to talk to happened, too. Yeah. I've had people show up. Anyway, I don't want to take you off track. Um, but she, you know, basically she's not speaking anymore because she just got sick of it. You get jaded after a while. Yeah. And I don't sleep at all when I travel. Not at all. I don't sleep because of the time zones and the strange beds. So I will, you know, literally stay awake the whole night.

Three or four nights in a row. So anyway, I'm working to do more boot camps. That kind of sucks. It really does in Santa Fe. Four nights. Four nights. You haven't slept at all. You're doing a speech. Your brother, Hi, everybody. Get motivated today. Whatever. They never would have known. They I can do it. I can get up there. But it's just hard. It's killer, right? Do you want to stay in this market? I want to get what I can out of it. I'm still making some money in it. I've got a couple other things

that I'm like we had a reasonably profitable boot camp. I finally did my first boot camp for the insurance industry. Reasonably profitable. How did you get the people there? I direct mailed my customer page. How many customers you got? I had at that time about a thousand subscribers away on a on a laptop behind me. Do Do I hear the pecking sound? You hear a pecking? Gary's addicted to his computer, his keyboard. Well, you know what that always means is people aren't paying attention to you during the moment. You Know, they miss 80%. That's okay.

I You just You just think that. No, I don't. Go ahead. You know what? I've learned to hate that sound. I think it enrages me the first time is when they put it in airports cuz I go stand there and I think if you want to buy a ticket on an airplane, you pull out some money, give it to them, they rip off a ticket like the movies and you go on. But no, and I stand there say, "Hi, uh, may I help you?" "Yeah, I'm Gary Halbert. I want to fly to Las Vegas. The

guy doesn't say another word. He goes and he just looks and taps and looks and taps. I had a guy do that in Miami literally for 20 minutes before I finally I said, "Hey, you know, and and it's just what they just look and tap." And there was a funny Rocco predicted the end of the world was going to happen this way and this really happened. He was at a fast food place and he was at the drive-thru and all these people enraged were attacking. They're running to attack the girl at the service window and

they'd all ordered hamburgers, but of course all the people that work there are illiterate. They don't know numbers and alphabet. So they have pictures on the keys. And she pushed the picture for a cookie cuz she thought it was a hamburger. All these people were driving away with their little bag, you know, with a cookie in it instead of a hamburger when they found out they became enraged. And that all has nothing to do with anything. Has nothing to do How many people do you have on your master list? When you say master list, you

mean my prospects, customers, inquiries? 7 8,000. Okay. Some of them are agents, some of them are managers. We market to them differently. And how many letters have you mailed to them? I used to mail quite regularly. I took that attack for a couple years, just regular mailings to get people calling me for speaking engagements and to market our recruiting program to them and that sort of thing. And that worked well for a while. But you just mailed to get them to come to a boot camp. Did that we sold tape programs, we sold uh video

training systems. We sold How recently was that? Anywhere from currently to or the last 3 months to three, four years. Last three, four years. And that works. It did work. It doesn't anymore. How many times do you think you've mailed this list? Well, our agent prospect list, some of them we mail 10 times a year. Okay. The manager list we were mailing at peak. I would say we were mailing them six times a year, which is not enough. What's the best part of your list? The one that has the potential for making Right now, it's

the agent list, not the manager list. How many names on the agent list? Probably 5,000. Some of them are getting kind of a little old, but 5,000. And what do you sell them? The tape kit and the info kit and and the new either 287 or 477. How many people out of 10 buy 287 and how many people buy 477? It used to be that 70% of them bought the 477 one, but more recently I think it's more like about 50/50. I have not done the numbers in the last six months on that particular one.

And when you mail that list, like in your memory, if you would mail 5,000 of those people, what do you think you'd get from that? If I mailed the whole 5,000, well, some of them are would go back, you know, 3 years. What do you think? I think I'd get 2 or 3%. Depends on what I was offering them, but I would say 2 or 3%. So, if you got 2% from that, you're talking about a 100 orders. Yes. Is that right? Yeah. And if you were selling it for say 350 was your average? 35,000.

That's $35,000. How many sales do you think you'd make if you mailed a letter to all those people and then you personally called them? Well, this is what I'm wrestling with. See, I used to do a lot of telephone marketing and I was very good at it. I didn't even mind it. I could spend hours on the phone and I did spend hours on The phone. In the beginning, I did all my own marketing for my seminars and whatever. I mean, I sold it all myself. But to me, that's kind of like speaking. And after

a while, you just kind of get tired of spending your Well, it it seems like if you're spending your time hold a second right now, I'm just wanting a quick answer rather than how many do you think you'd sell? I'd have to say that I don't know that I could sell a significantly greater percentage than I could through sending them a letter. You're telling me that if you sent a letter to 5,000 people and made a hundred sales and if you telephoned 5,000 people, you wouldn't make more after you sent them the letter. After you

send them? Yeah. We're not talking cold telemarketing. We're talking send a letter then follow up with a phone call. All right. I would be surprised if you couldn't increase it. Yeah. What about how much? I don't know how much it The rule of thumb is you'll increase it by a factor of five times five. That sounds great. Do you have one of your letters? Yeah, I have some of them. Let me see some of them. Okay. What she needs to do is obviously the same thing I told you guys to do yesterday. And what Terry

wanted me to do is start looking at letters and making comments on them. And I may as well do that with hers, you know. Does that sound pretty good? Let me show you something. Do you want you just want to see sales letters and then and I want to ask you also, is there anything else that I didn't ask that you think would have been helpful if I did? Oh, well, I have some specific questions that I want to ask, but go ahead. Shoot them to jerky. You know, you have you have to be a

jerky boy. So, let me do it. I picked up on the conversation, but I deliberately didn't laugh. You know, you said, uh, I'm proud of you. You know, it's just very, but you have to be a fan to get that stuff. All right. Shoot. Well, you got to I got to tell you one of the great things that had appealed to me about Dan's whole approach of getting them to inquire and then sending them stuff until they buy or they die or just make it unprofitable for you to keep sending them stuff was very appealing

to me because I was getting I realized that I mean I was getting tired of making the calls myself and spending so much time making the calls that I didn't have enough time to do the other stuff that really could develop the backend, write the newsletters, write the programs, etc. And the other thing is that I have been notoriously unsuccessful in hiring people to do it successfully for me. So I look at when you talk about it sounds great, but I must be doing something really wrong because I've not been able to make it work

in the past. I've hired people to do this. And when I was able to sell on the phone, these people weren't. It didn't seem to matter how much training I did or how much time I spent with them or how much coaching. Pemma, I know that if I'd let you ramble long enough, they're buried in there someplace as a question. No. Okay, here's the question. What I'm looking for is some things you can do that are not so labor intense with so much grunt work. I'm really tired of the Grunt work, okay? And I want

a magic pill. Maybe it doesn't exist, but I want to know if there's ways to do it that are not so painful. But so you'll understand just to give you some insight. Another partial problem with her to kind of see kind of where you're going to go with this in that process is that's exactly what she teaches the insurance people. Her message to them is you do not have to pick up the phone and do cold call grunt work. We can eliminate all of that. And therefore for her, not only has she done it in

the past and is sick of it, but it's also something that she teaches her clients. So she already has this attachment of that's like the method to do. So she already has a mindset cemented into her head of this is not the way to sell because this is what I tell people not to do and this is also her mentor Dan who's also works with me that's what he always preaches don't do that don't do that don't do it so you got to break that mode because we do do it and it obviously it works

cuz I've even tested it but what you're asking the very general questions how to make a lot of money with very little work right but let's try for a more specific question you know I mean that's If if I was pretty specific, it's too bad he covered that yesterday. Yeah, it's kind of like Pete Kazinski's question yesterday. How do you write good copy? Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what. I got other questions, but I I'm going to Go for them. Go for it. Okay. All right. So, before you do, let me say one thing. You

said when you give seminars, you sell 25% of the people that are at the seminars. 25 to 30%. All right. Now, let's say you didn't go to those seminars, but you had a list of all the people that attended the seminars. How many of those people you think you could sell your program to? Since I don't know about people who, you know, haven't responded to me, haven't inquired or whatever. Um, well, at the very least, I would sell 6% of them. Yeah. That attend. So, that's the total universe. Okay. Well, I Okay. No, they went

to the seminars. Uh, let's say there was a seminar for insurance agency. You didn't go to it, but you had all their names and they all went to the seminar for a reason. they wanted to learn something or advance themselves or improve their lot in life. You know, I have If you had their names, how many of them could you sell? I don't know because I've not tried that. Okay. Out of the 25% you sell at a seminar, how many are sold because they come and ask you questions or want more information? They're just sold

because I I sell them before they get a chance to come up and talk to me at the first break. You closes at the end of the deal, right? I No, I close at the first break. I close after 1 hour. But you pass out order forms and everything, right? Yeah. No, I I give the pitch. I give the pitch. I give the pitch. Okay. Does that include an order form to everyone in the audience while you're pitching live? I mean, you have someone pass out. Okay. I actually you have that pitch on audio tape,

right? Yeah. But I don't have it with me. So, let's say you could get the list of all the people that attended that seminar. Mhm. Sent them an audio tape with an offer to buy the package. How many could you sell? Well, if it included the first hour of the talk, it would probably have a very similar effect. It's a great idea. Well, you know what, Pamela? Just just so we can I have a follow-up letter that I use to everyone at the end of my seminars to pitch a course that works. I can't imagine

not having a result with yours too. Cover letter similar to Dan's mailing list. It cost a little I've never seen his I don't know but I mean after I do a seminar and I close you know of course the best people you're going to sell are it's your best two hours of speaking that's you know they don't buy there you know you got to think what's wrong with them. But I follow up with everyone and it kind of covers well there's three reasons why you know your your percentage conversion. Oh we probably pick up if

if we mail to 100 we probably pick up another 10 sales. So 10%. Yeah. But nationwide how many uh insurance seminars are there total? Well 300 400 seminars. I I don't know if there's that many. I mean there's not that many that I might be able to get into. But you could get a list of who attended those seminars, couldn't you? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So what I'm talking about, you don't necessarily have to attend the seminars to get the prospects that are in heat for your product. Sure. And you don't have to travel and you

don't have to do all that other stuff. I like the idea of a tape that includes because my first 45 minutes is just a really keynote oriented. How much is your boot camp cost? The one we did for the insurance agents was about 800 bucks. The one we did for the agency managers was 13-,500 bucks. Okay. Why don't you ask your next questions? Okay. I need a step down offer to both of my markets. And I was looking for some ideas on what would be a good step down to your next question. Okay. That whole

thing you discussed on the teleconference when you talked about let's say you have the book that you offer and normally you'd sell for $ 199.95 plus $3 postage and handling give it free charge $3 whether you even process it or not. It made a lot of sense. How do you adapt some of those ideas to those you probably covered this Yesterday? Those of us who do not have a book are using the special report or whatever to do it. Let's go to your next question. Okay. All right. I wanted to get more specific on your

wording of the double your money back guarantee and what you say in your cover letter to the person when you send that out. What you do is that this system is so foolproof. That's why I'm offering an amazing double your money back guarantee to anybody who purchases the system and gives it an honest try. Okay. But you mentioned a pitch about what you say in the letter when you send a letter with the program itself about how use these ideas, show me an example, show me an ad that you use. So let's go to the

next question. Okay. All right. Well, because what I want to do, Pamela, I want to hear your questions and then I want to answer the questions that you need to have answer. Okay, that's mine, too. I may not be because really a step down offer isn't going to do someone a lot of good who hasn't had an order in 3 months. But how do you step down from that, you know, to pay them money? No, I guess I was I was told that that was this one of the solutions is you need a step down

offer at least get them in and then and then and then bump them up. Okay. Let's just go with the questions. Okay. I wondered if on this trial subscription, which is working fairly well, the $7 trial subscription, which I want to start doing to the RV market, that's for a newsletter. Yeah. Okay. When then we mail them with the newsletter, they get the or they get the the pitch for the program. And we've had a very high conversion ratio on that deal. What's the high? Well, higher than we do from the special reports. We get

a 9 9 to 10%. Is that a direct mail offer or an ad offer in the beginning? Since our conversation, I'm going to be cold mailing these things, but but it is an ad offer. It's it's both. We've done it as an ad, which I can show you. Okay. And we've done it as a postcard to people who have inquired but not bought after they've gotten their three-letter sequence. And also we swap mailing list with other people who sell prospecting programs. Their inquiry lists we mail to their inquiry list as well. And that's where we

get a 9 to 10% conversion on that. Okay. So go ahead with that. Okay. So I wondered is there any problem with the $7 versus the $3 on a trial subscription? I would think there is. Yeah, I think that it should be free with $3 being the shipping and handling. I've done a lot of experimenting. That seems to be a Good price. But you can always test that things change. Yeah. Okay. I've already changed the post. I've taken your advice about give them a call, either call or test the different options, call or write. So,

we changed all of that and we're going to start testing that next week. Okay. I want some ideas for some specific upcoming boot camp things that we're doing. One for myself and one for an agency manager. And I'm just trying to get some ideas on uh better marketing the boot camps. I I got a lot of ideas out of that teleconference. I thought the idea of using a teleconference to market a boot camp was a great idea, but I want to see if I could come up with some others. Okay. What else? I want to

know how you you mentioned uh if you reach the point of diminishing returns that you should try becoming your competitor and so I wanted to get some thoughts from you on that and whether that's great. Knock yourself out. Knock yourself off. How much are you really changing? Are you actually changing the entire program? Redoing it in a different person's voice? How much do you change? Well, I'll give you an example of how that's done. There has been a diet which is in its current incarnation is the the Atkins diet which is ketogenic. It throws you

into ketosis. It's basically zero or very low carbohydrate diet. Before that it was the Stillman diet and there's all kinds of variations. And it started like at the turn of the century but it's a different doctor, a different book, a different message. And the thing is if someone buys a diet book or a diet pill up till from you, most of the People are not going to lose the weight they want, not because what you're selling is faulty. It it is rather because they eat too much and exercise too little and that's it. So it's

kind of hard for you to write back to them from the same company, you know, and say, "Hi, it's Pamela again. Since my first promise miracle didn't change your life, here's my miracle number two." But what happens is that Helen from Montana can mail a package and talk about having it and it's essentially the same appeal but it's coming from a different person, different company, different geographic location and how much of the program itself is the same? It can be the same and look different etc. I mean it can be very much the same. The

reason I'm asking you that is that my partner thinks that after a point just being a woman dealing with mostly male markets, there are those people who won't buy from a woman no matter what. And that if we did it in the like as a male voice instead that maybe we would be able to convert people we haven't with me as the persona. I don't know. So we're wondering if we're going to test something like that how much we would have to change. And what's the next question? Next question. The rest of my questions is

I just want to pick up as much ideas as I can. I'm sure I'll have other questions as we go along, but I just wanted to get as many ideas about getting more customers into my market. Well, you don't need a whole lot of ideas. I mean, what you need is two different kinds of ideas. Right now, you need some emergency life-saving ideas. Like the first thing I'm going to talk to you about is though you were wounded in combat and I'm running the MASH hospital. You come in and I got to stop the bleeding

and make sure that you don't die. All right. Now, here's exactly how you do that. You take the 5,000 list that you have, the best portion of that list, and that is your agent list, right? Yes. Okay. Write a sales letter. And part of this is boilerplate copy that I have memorized. So, I'm going to give it to you quickly. It'll be on the tape and then you're going to have to fill in the yada yada. Now, each one of these letters will be computerenerated so that they look personalized as though they were individually typed.

And it'll be something like this. June 11th, 1977. John Q. Everett, 123 Elm Street, Mass, Ohio 44646. Dear Mr. Ever, as you can see, I've attached a nice, crisp $1 bill to the top of this letter. Why have I done this? Actually, there are two reasons. Number one, I have something very important to tell you, and I wanted some way to make sure this letter would catch your attention. Number two, since what I have to tell you concerns how you can double the amount of money you make on commissions or whatever it is, I thought

using a dollar bill as a financial eye catcher was especially appropriate. Here's what it's all about. My name is Pamela Lee Yellen and I have recently developed um a lead generating profitm system that is so incredible. This program continues with Take Five. [Music] [Music] Now, what you want to do is you want to take a hundred of those letters. Now, listen real carefully cuz what I'm about to tell you is crucial. You do this with a 100 letters and you send those letters by priority mail. All right? So that they're going to arrive within 3

days. That's guaranteed. And you send a priority mail and then you call them. When you call, you make it a persontoperson call to John Q. Everett from Pamela. And then you talk to those guys and see how many sales that you can close. Now, what you're going to find out is some of them are not interested, some of you can't get through, some of them going to really like it, etc., etc. But as you get feedback, now when you write the next 100 letters, you're going to change it. But you're not going to change it

through guesswork or intuition or gut feeling. You're going to change it because of real honest to God field feedback. Right? Then you do it with another hundred letters. And then you do it with another hundred. It's somewhere about that time you're going to have probably about the best letter that you can write without getting some worldclass copywriter to come in and do it. Then you go through the numbers. Now it may not be that you want to continue mailing priority mail. Maybe you want to mail this package, regular first class mail. But whenever I'm in

doubt, when I First worked with Sam and Leslie Fishbine, they had a real big problem. They've got five furniture stores here in Denver. They're about to open two more, but I started working in ' 88 and they were in sort of a crisis situation. And I almost always tell people in a crisis situation, if you haven't done it, mail a dollar bill letter to your existing list and then follow it up with a telephone call. Now, I don't want to hear any of this [ __ ] about how you don't like making the calls. Make

the calls and record the calls. And as you record the calls, wait till you capture yourself a concert pitch on a few of them. Then you use that as a training program for anybody else that's going to work for you. You know, you have Mary come in. You say, "Mary, listen to these tapes." She'll hear you actually selling this at your best, overcoming the 10 most common objectives. That's how you get somebody to do it. Okay? But the first thing that you need to do is you need to send all those people a dollar bill

promotion. And believe me, it'll reactivate enough of them in an amount that you can follow up with it 100 a time or do you just send all 5,000? No, no, no. You do not send all 500. You want to keep refining. You want to do the hundred. You want to do the hundred. You want to do them priority mail. You're trying to make sales, but you're also trying to buy information here. Why they're not buying and what Yeah. Exactly. And then you the next hundred letters you change and you make it better. And then the

next hundred letters get better and better and better. Okay? And then when you finally have it good enough that you think you can put it on automatic pilot, you may Think about having Mary and then Jane come in and do that. All right? But that's an emergency bailout. Now, to tell you the truth, after the first 200 calls, you can probably get enough money to bail yourself out of any financial problem you have simply by mailing a letter with a stamp with a personalized letter and a dollar bill and not following up with a phone

call should you so choose. The rule of thumb though, if you follow up with a telephone call, is that your sales will increase by a factor of five. You're talking about a 30% closing ratio. You have that already? No, I just want you. If you're getting six, you're going to jump it to five, you know, because you got the bio feedback. You're talking to somebody. I mean, one of the things that you said which was just factually inaccurate is when Sam asked you how many would close if you're talking to them. It would be a

lot higher. Okay, that's your bailout. Now, let me tell you what you might consider doing. I always give a seminar or give a talk. That talk should be the same one where you flip 30% of the audience to buying your product and capture that on videotape. All right. Now, you go back to the trade magazines and you run an ad and your ad will say something like Santa Fe woman dazzles insurance agents at Denver seminar. And then you have like the superscript quotes, you know, or pull quotes. If her inside secrets don't double your commissions,

you've got to be brain dead. And then you start Telling the story, you know, starts out Denver, Colorado. Last week on Thursday the 19th, the seminar for people insane enough to sell insurance for a living was held at such and such a hotel. The main speaker was so and so and so and so, but there was a dimminitive red-headed woman from somewhere in the wilds of New Mexico stole the show. And what she did is she revealed secret after secret that everybody in that room could use to double or triple their commissions. By the time

she was finished, there was almost a stampede of these people to answer her questions. Again, and you do that, a full page ad or maybe a two full page ad and you just go on and on and on about this. And then you say a free video of her speech is available for anybody. A free video is available. All right? You have those people call. And then when they do call, you tell them the video is free, but they have to return it and you get a $20 deposit from that. Should that be in the

ad, Gary? The mention of the $20 deposit? No. Okay. You want them to call and then you should do this yourself personally, Pamela, at first. You know, you got to work it out. Then you talk to them and say, "Look, I'm getting so many requests for these videos and I'm sending them free, but people got to return them. I just can't keep afforded. So, I'm just asking for a $20 deposit. You get it." By the way, 70% of the people at least will never ask for the deposit whether it was video or not. Okay. Now,

you've got these people who have paid you to watch you pitch them. Okay? Now, then you send this out. What you do is you Send some kind of federal express or you even make a phone call or something, a telegram or something. So, no, send a FedEx. You haven't used a dollar bill on them. So send them a FedEx package with the video and then a dollar bill and you know go through the same thing that I taught you where you know using this to get your attention yada yada yada this video you can do

anything you want with the dollar bills buy a beer give it to charity but I hope you do is frame it cuz two years from now when someone comes in sees that frame dollar bill on your wall and says what's that about that's the first dollar I ever got because of my association with Pamela Yellen since then I have gotten more than a million more and if you're willing to work as hard as I we can make this happen. Please watch the video right away. Then the people watch the video and then you call up.

Many of those people will order, but those who do not, you call up and ask them if they watch the video and talk to them. So the first part should bail out what to do immediately. The second part is a good long-term funnel marketing technique. There's a guy named Don Alm. I'll tell you how he does that. Don was down and out, divorced, broke, back against the wall and all he had was about four or five copies of Gary Albert newsletters and he read them and he did what I suggested only he really refined it.

He runs an ad in one of the bisop magazines. It's just a little ad. You call a pox number, not an 800 number. You got to pay for the call and when you call, there's a recording there. Gets your name and address. Then he sends out a four-page letter. The letter pitches You on the video which you pay 20 bucks for. Then you send him the 20 bucks. He sends you the video and the video pitches you and you cannot get Don M on the phone and he makes a fortune and he works two or

three hours a day. See the thing is here's what you got to know. Advertising should be and marketing must be salesmanship multiply. You're a great sales lady. You stand in front of a group you got them. Okay. So the thing is how do you multiply that? Well, the best way I would think in your case is to capture you doing that and then engineer it so all these people watch that. You're totally right. That's it. In the meantime, before I get this on a video, can I use an audio? How would I use an audio?

Yeah, you could. What I'm describing is what I think is the most effective way to do it. But let me tell you something else, too, that your question because there's a hidden thing in your there's questions within questions and I've learned that. And incidentally, I know I come off very rude and crude and that's because I am, but it's because it's also I've done these things so many times. I know what's going to be beneath the answer. One of the things you need to do is do something like I've said to you right away. Do

it even if you do it wrong. If it's going to take you a while to get the video, yes, do the audio, but shoot for doing it the ultimate way that I just showed you. And what you want to do, marketing is a matter of impact. It's like people are exposed to about 2,000 advertising messages a day, but we're really not. We're unconscious about them. You know, they just float right by us. You couldn't exist. One of the main things that separate yourself, you got to remember this, Joe, is theater. Theater and drama. Theater and

drama. I'm about to do something. I did this before with Ernest and Toba Borgnine. And right now the Estifons have been following my writings and they're talking to me about doing a book and about shooting an album cover. And I don't know if you know even who they are, Gloria Estan, but she's one of the probably 100 most well-known people in the world cuz she's a very famous Latino singer. Well, here's what I did for the Bordiness. How I got the relationship started. I wrote a full page newspaper ad, new book by Toba Bourdine. It's

number one bestseller list. I had it type set just like it was a real newspaper ad. Had it framed with a gold frame, had it wrapped in silver foil, the bow, and had it couriered to her office. And she opened it up and called me 20 minutes later. I made millions of dollars from that association. While here in Denver, I'm going to do that for a Gloria Estifon book for the New York Times and have it delivered right there. That's theater. Theater and drama. You got to stand out from these people. The idea is not

to make it cheaper all the Time. You I'm talking about your marketing. You don't want to overpay for your marketing, but you want to make your marketing more impactful. Wham, wham, wham. You want to hit it. There's another thing that you can do after you do all this. Just improving the response to your offers. I'll tell you something that you can do and it'll take your breath away, but you need to test it. And the main thing that you need to remember is what this is all about. It's about arithmetic. We're all in the arithmetic

business. Tell the people that you're so confident of this system, etc., etc., that you will not process their credit cards or cash their checks for 60 days after it comes in, after they've had the product. All right. Now, will you get more refunds? Yes, you will. Will you get more sales? Yes, you will. Is it a good thing for you to do? I don't know. The the numbers will tell us. And the answer is almost certainly going to be yes. Sam is working on seven furniture stores now here in Denver. And you can ask him,

you give a guy lower prices, better styles, etc. Only they got to pay upfront for it and he can sell on credit with no money down. He'll cream them, right? That's it. If somebody wants what you're selling and you take the fear out of it, you'll make the sale. And a lot of people are afraid to do that. Mel Powers wrote a book, How to Make a Million in Mail Order. Except he didn't know how. Hired me to write the copy for him. And he wouldn't run my copy. And eventually after redoing it five times,

he wanted his money back. And I told him to go to hell. The reason he wouldn't run it is because I told him to test the post-dated check content. Well, here's the way he wouldn't do it. I'm in his office. He pulls up. So, I won't do that. Desperate. He says, "Look at this." You know, I'll tell you something interesting though on the u an option for paying cash at a discount. 40% will take the cash discount off. You've never tried that on yours. No, I've never The majority would rather pay cash rather than take

deferred. Yeah. Give me a discount and I'll pay you right now. And as we talked yesterday, you can sell those receivables. You can get your money immediately from a upfront. Okay. Is there any magic to testing 30 days versus 60 or 90 days on the you will not process until? I just think the longer it is, the fewer refunds you get. The rule of thumb is the longer the guarantee, the better, the better. No, she means on the processing, right? 30 days you don't pay or 60 days you don't pay, which one's better? What I

want to find out from you is what specific steps would you take during that waiting period as to when you're going to charge the card or cash the check? What should you do? You should bond with them. Okay. not what specific things write them letters, offer different things to be helped. It's harder to stiff a friend than it is an unknown entity. So bonding with them would require a 60-day period might require how many contacts to really do it right. I don't know exactly how long just the 30 days will probably triple your sales. You

know, I'll tell you what, I was working with Guthy R. They do all these TV promotions. They did a Victoria Principal one and they couldn't make it pay a profit. And you know what? When they said, "We won't process your credit card for 30 days." Tripled sales. That's why the show was able to run it. Well, something else that's interesting, too. When we sell mattresses, we used to give a 30-day money back guarantee. We call it a sleep guarantee, and our returns were killing us. We bumped it up to 90 days, and it almost eliminated

the I've tested even the one-year guarantee, and I've done that. And double your money back if you give it an honest chance and it doesn't work reduces it even further. That's what I want to hear. What they have to send you on the double your money back guarantee. They have how that came to be invented is that Chase Rebel who founded Entrepreneur magazine was also selling these expensive reports. They were expensive back then $67 or whatever. And the first half of the report which was in the career ring binder was generic. how to get a

business license, how to get your business cards printed, your letterheads, and so on and so forth. The second part was specific to what he was selling, how to be a balloon vendor or whatever the heck it was. And he was getting creamed by refunds. He said, "They hired me to solve it." And so what I did to solve it is I made it a double your money back guarantee. This program is so good if you give us an honest chance to work that if it doesn't, we'll give you double your money back. And then when

we sent the product, we reminded of that and we guarantee that This will work in 60 days. And we're so strongly about it that if it doesn't, of course, like we said in our initial presentation, we'll give you double your money back. As we said, all we want you to give us is an honest try. So if you try it and for some reason you're the first person in history it doesn't work for, just send us a photocopy of your business license and a letter written on your business stationary telling us that your balloon bending

business didn't work. Well, the reason it didn't work for them is none of them did anything. In your case, it might be something like, "Show me the postcard. Send me some Dixies or or whatever they redid based on the what I'm teaching them." Why did you have them send you a copy of the business card? That almost sounds like you're trying to make them go through some hoops or something. Well, because that's not too much to ask if I'm going to give you a foolproof business plan and if you don't get a business license, which

you're required to do, that's really not giving it a fair try, is it? All right. I'm saying if you're not even going to try it, don't even bother ordering it to begin with. Cuz you get a lot of people order it just to look at it and then send it back anyway with no intention of doing anything. Like Gary said yesterday, they know before they order it, they're going to send it back. Right. Most people who want refunds from mail order decide they want the refund at the time of purchase before they've gotten the product.

Right. They have no intention. So what do you think of those? Very good. Excellent. Those box. Excellent. You know, one of the things that I said yesterday is it the very best thing that all of you can do is affiliate yourself with a really worldclass copywriter and marketer. And I was hoping you could do that with John, but John just doesn't have any time left. The marketing is the lifeblood of your business. Almost all the time you spend doing anything other than thinking about marketing or having someone do it for you and working with them,

you're doing something that is a diminished return on your time. So, is there any reason why if I'm getting pretty good at copywriting, I shouldn't keep working on doing something? No, you should keep doing it. But what I mean is that should be your focus. Well, that's what I think. I think it's the most valuable skill I can learn, the most valuable thing I can spend my time on is strategizing and writing the copy, getting the promotions out there. Wherein comes that like, gee, do I want to get back on the phone? Because ever since

I stopped doing the phone, I've been I've gotten a lot more developed in these other areas. How long you been doing this? 6 months, 7 months. You know, one of the keys to making all this stuff work is just work. You know, getting in there and doing a lot of it. You know, so many of us, you know, like two or three people say something, we say, "Oh, well, that's the thing." I'm not saying that's it because I don't know. Unless you actually get out there and do the research, you don't know. Right. Right. And

you need to be mailing a lot of different letters and you need to be doing different models and trying different formulas. And if I were you, I would be looking real closely at different niches. I am. I think RV dealers is a particularly bad niche because when the economy goes down, they just stop. They don't slow down. You know, when people cut back on a potential purchase, RV is an easy choice. But don't you think with the information super highway in the internet that RVs are going to sell a lot more these days? I I

am getting ready to go into some new markets. Don't know what yet. I have some ideas, but Pamela, do you have anybody working for you? My partner works with me and I have a part-time actually she pretty much works about 30 hours a week for me and then then occasionally contract out for stuff. I have found it managing people is not my forte and I don't enjoy it. Well, actually, Gary, maybe you can talk about this. Gary, you know, Mike Cohen, you know, if he ends up listening to these tapes, you know, he's having the

same problem cuz he's doing everything himself. Myself, too, just getting started. And it does seem like so much grunt work because, you know, I'm addressing envelopes and stamping and trying to also do all the research. You know, that's what's makes it so so hard, right? which were a lot of it I think has to do with just us being sometimes Just wanting to relinquish doing everything. I mean that's my biggest thing is not that it can't be done. Not that you can't get other people just outright taking the damn time to do it. You know

I don't think anyone has been hammered more about delegation than probably like me by Terry. I mean we're talking hours and hours of I always tell people that's why I like marketing so much because marketing is scientific. It's predictable. You can test things but management marketing is delegation. It's the ultimate delegation. Mhm. You know, it's a replacement of of your sales force. Exactly. But what I'm saying is, you know, when you're talking about management, you're talking about life human beings who have personal problems, drug problems, they're psychotic and all that stuff. The thing is, right

now, as much as I've been against delegating and hiring, I'm starting to do a pretty damn good job. I mean, I'm hardly ever in my office. The business churns out anywhere from 2,000 to 5 to 6,000 a day in sales. I'm never there. See, my time is spent not necessarily doing everything myself, but doing a bunch of stupid activities that really aren't making the money. I mean, he made a good point yesterday about you got a field of coins, or I'm just making this up, but you got a field of coins where there's lead coins

over here, there's silver coins, there's gold coins, and you're out there picking up all the different coins when you should be picking up the gold coins, not spending your time picking up the lead coins and stuff like that. And to me, that made a real good picture in my mind of that's me. you know, I'm out there picking up all these different coins, trying to do all these joint ventures when in reality, if I spent, you know, the 80/20 rule or whatever, you know, 80% of my time picking up the gold Coins, then I'd be

making a whole lot more money. But the point is, you know, is that getting it more on autopilot, you know, the main thing, so that you got that machine picking up the gold coins and then you can spend your time writing I don't letters. I don't spend my time and I haven't been since the very beginning. Spent my time doing things like addressing envelopes and stamping them. I mean, to me, that's something you hire someone for at six or eight bucks an hour to do. I just thought of that because you were you were talking

about it being you wanted to get less of the hard grunt. When I talk about grunt work, kind of I know what you're saying. You're saying that it's hard to find a replacement for the activities that you do. Like it's hard cloning a Joe. It's hard cloning a Pamela. Yeah. It's a pain in the ass. I mean, I've got a guy that's doing my seminars for me now because I have so many people that want me to do seminars. I physically don't have the time to do it. Is he doing okay? Well, he did one

to him. Yeah, Jim. He did. He could do it. He could do it. Well, he did one to a franchise organization to a hundred of them or whatever. Didn't sell a damn thing. But the problem was is what he was teaching. When you're there to sell, you don't teach, you sell. You tell them what to do. You just don't tell them how to do it. He got up there and tell them all how to do it. By the time he was done speaking, they probably like, "We knew It all. What the hell are you going

to buy anything?" you know, he's doing one of my full day seminars next weekend in Fort Lauderdale, which I ain't going to be there cuz I can't show up. If I show up, then everyone's going to want me to talk cuz they all know me. All the cleaners, you know, already know me. I'm doing it. I'm just testing the water. And one thing that I think would work real effectively for you since you've been How long you been in this insurance market? 6 years. And they all know of you for the most part, the readers

of the trademarks. Have you ever done an expose ad like I did with Wolverton? I I other than Tom. You did the one with Tom, right? The testimonial. That's different though. Yeah. But but I No, it's the same concept just a little different. My approach is, you know, they're thinking, "Well, this guy's obviously full of crap." Well, that ad that new ad would Yeah. But not just I'm not talking new leads. I'm talking people that have been sitting on the sales letters for a long time. It's getting them to buy. See, the thing is is

you spent all this marketing cost in the last 6 years sending letters out to people that have still not bought. So, if you coupled with sending all these people on your database a letter like Gary's talking about, coupled with an expose ad talking about, hey, this stuff is real and here's the proof. I think you're going to resurrect a ton of dead people cuz you know, like I told you, that Endorsement ad that we ran in a letter, that was one of the most profitable things I've ever done, right? So, this expose that's good. That's

good. What else was Gary saying about knocking yourself off? What I think he was saying was not necessarily knocking yourself off, but have someone else other than you making the sales pitch. Like for instance, what I'm going to do with my fourth and fifth sequence is I'm going to have my fourth letter is not going to be a letter from me. It's going to be a letter from me, my free report, but it's going to be a cover letter from Ununice with an actual photograph of me and Ununice. And we're going to use that as

a grabber, you know, and it's going to say Ununice is going to send them a letter on the outside of the envelope. We're going to put photo enclosed. So, you know, you get a letter that says photo enclosed. You're going to open it up cuz you want to see the photo. And so, anyway, we're going to put photo enclosed, handwritten or stamped and red on the outside of the envelope, and it's going to be a picture of me and Ununice, and Ununice is going to say, you know, I've enclosed a picture of me and Joe.

He doesn't know I'm sending you this letter, but I've been here. I feel like it's our program. It's our business because I've seen so many carpet cleaners make so much money, and I can't believe why you haven't done it. And then if they don't respond to that, then they're going to get a letter from Jim, which is going to include a picture of me and Jim. I'm going to just keep doing that. Take that whole personal approach, but the cover letter is, you know, so it's going to be a letter from my secretary, a letter

from another carpet cleaner. And so you're saying this thing about, you know, all these guys are not responding to a woman. Well, what if they got, you know, a letter from a man who's an actual insurance guy saying, "Hey, if you won't listen to her, listen to me. She's changed my life." You know, and when are you going to resurrect that? When am I going to do it? The Unice letter's already written. Cuz you were doing that months ago. Yeah. Well, we should have the photographs done by the time I get back. I want that

letter hopefully going out within two weeks from now. I've been wanting to change my number one letter. I'm not kidding. For the last year, that's just a misplacement of priorities on my letter is the one you did with the Sunday, right? Yeah. That's when we stopped using it. I'm just ging talk to you keep you're so resil I could give you I give you a hundred things you can gather for well see that's the beauty of this type of business though is to be a completely disorganized mismanaged flake that I could still be you know

pulling in upwards of 100 grand a month and 30% net you know obviously what could happen if I did the [ __ ] right you know if I had you're working on that operation manual you know that's something not that anyone's going to follow because who reads operation manuals but there's enough nuggets of information for us to put that together and pitch it to everyone. I've already talked with Heather about that. Have you? So, are you seriously considering implementing most or all those things in your upgrade letter to what are you going to call gold

or platinum or whatever? The upgrade you sent me that gold remember the upgra upgrading your 200 members. No more than 200 people can upgrade. Yeah. A ton of service in that one. Well, no, because uh I'm going to strip out the things that Well, see here's Wait, this is No, this is this you slipped through the cracks letter. Damn it. I don't have that letter with me. No, what I'm going to do, I want to do the continuity program, but I'm going to do it without the servicing. I'm not going to add any more things

that I'm already doing other than like the teleconferences and the weekly faxes, but those are still delegatable. I want to do a broadcast facts and like what John said, instead of doing critiques, the report, you know, every month you're going to get a hot report worth blah blah blah blah. Yeah, that's an easy way to just switch it over. But I want more than 200 people. I mean, how much is 200 people? 20 grand a month, but it's mostly all med. But still, I mean, I want 100 grand a month of continuity coming in. Sounds

like a deal. Yeah. But I got to figure out how to I thought, you know, I brought the wrong damn letter. I wanted to show that to Gary, but I got the I got the picture right here is for my tape of the month. I've got all these tapes. Is it in here? The letter? Uh, I don't think so. It's a brand new one. I might have it buried in some, but um Oh, you know what? This is Oh, this is it right here. This is a letter from Ununice. This is my fourth letter. Listen

to this, Gary. Okay. It says, "From the desk of Joe Polish's secretary. This goes out after four times. Dear carpet cleaner, hi, I'm Ununice Miller, Joe Polish's secretary. He doesn't know I'm slipping in this special letter, but I wanted to tell you something, and it's very important. I'm not a carpet cleaner, but I talk to a lot of carpet cleaners just like you all day long. It's my job. I love my job because I get to hear how carpet cleaners go from struggling to make ends meet to happy, fun, and wealthy business people. Like just

the other day, a carpet cleaner from Albuquerque ordered our membership 3 months ago. When he ordered it, he was dead broke. He borrowed half of the money for our membership from his brother and the other half he borrowed from his mother. His brother didn't realize he borrowed half from his mom and his mom didn't realize he borrowed half from his brother. So, it was kind of a sticky situation for a while. He called in the other day to say this was the first time in his career as a carpet cleaner that he had ever made

money at all. He was finally making money and he was thrilled. The spark of life was back in his voice and I could just tell the spring was back in his step. He was no longer down and out. He was on top of the world. Not to brag, but it was our membership. I say are because I kind of feel like it's mine, too. Don't tell Joe. That put him back on top. I'm telling you all this because you don't have to suffer anymore. Our membership will put you back on top. You'll be able to

get loads of great customers who want you. Don't miss out on this opportunity to change your bank account and your life. Too often we let opportunities to really make wonderful changes pass by. Well, don't grasp it. I know you can do it. Call me at blah blah blah and start your membership right now. I want you to be happy again. Cordially Ununice Miller Joe Polish is secretary. PS. Remember, we have our 100% money back guarantee. If you aren't totally happy with our membership, we do keep our word. If you aren't happy, send it back and

I'll make sure you get every penny back. And then there's going to be an actual photograph Of me and her there together. And outside the envelope going to say photo test, right? Oh, yeah. We You want to hear how stupid I am? Conversion. I know you stop. This is what you stopped using. This is why I stopped using What was your conversion? 8% off that letter alone. And we stopped using it. Uh because I I bought out my partner to It's not that I I purposely stopped. I just outright forgot about it. It's since like

father know what like half a year ago I remembered it. I still have it in but uh you know it's it's Is there is you include a wholesale? Yeah, we we have a whole number four letter and what we do is the same letter instead, but what we have we have a different headline that says if you truly want to get a flood of new customers, then read this right now. How to get proven marketing strategies that will double your business in 6 months or less for only four payments of 127. That's the headline. And

so we go from an installment plan of half now and half in 45 days to four installments of 127 for the basic. And we charge interest, which most people aren't aware of that, but we have a $100 interest built in to our six-month payment, but they pay it until we make interest on them since we're playing banker. They do. Yeah. But anyway, uh can you see improvements for that, Gary? No. You like it? Yeah. The letter from the secretary. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the improvement I can see is that since it pulls 8%, you should continue

doing it. Okay. Maybe I should wait a few more months, though. That's what I think if you I think if you jump on these leads too soon. If they haven't aged for at least a year, like a fine wine, then the results might not be as That's what I do. I spend money to create a product, do the thing, pay for the marketing, test it, works good, and I forget it. That's exactly my MO. Yeah, that's true, though. Mhm. That is true. Yeah. Because that's You like more excitement. What do you mean your emmo? It's

boring. Yeah. I get bored and he wants to move on to something else. It's not fun anymore. Yeah. I like to solve problems, right? There's no more challenge. It just sits there and it says, "Okay, what's next?" Yeah. Okay. Well, I think with your deal, do the dollar bill everybody. Uh do the expose ad. One thing I think you should do, too. He mentioned something yesterday. All the people on the tape are getting this twice. There's a little thing that he said. You get little ads on pages throughout the magazine that the little reference ads.

You have them in different parts of the magazine and you say, you know, double your commissions. See page 23. Put that on page 12. Classified section on the back. Learn how to double your business blah blah blah. You call this 800 number for a free report or see page 23. Oh, advertise the advertising. Yeah. I think that's pretty neat. Are you getting articles in the mags, too? Okay. Not as much as I could or should, but yeah. Let me ask you, this is maybe you think this is stupid, but I've been looking at these for

years and I've never like asked the question. I'm always wondering. There's like these papers that have like things on there. And there's one that caution. And there's one here that has a hard hat. And I mean, I'm thinking you could put a message on here. You know, you must be real hard-headed cuz you haven't responded to my last 47 letters. What do you think of this? Is this stupid? Madison Avenue. Is it starting to get cute? It's cute. Yeah. But like things like caution, I mean seriously, you just think all of it's a complete waste.

Sometimes it works. Well, the only reason I say that, I mean, taking cutesy aside, when I get letters like that, even me being a marketing person, it just piques my curiosity. Trying. Okay. You've never done anything like that, though? No. I What's the weirdest thing you've ever done that worked really damn well other than dollar bill letters? That's like a great idea. I'm not just trying to dig for more stuff. And not necessarily cutesy. What's a really wow, highly effective thing? I mean, are the fake priority envelopes worthless compared to the real ones? Mm-m. No.

I had a marketing guy, you know, I I mean, I got a pitch in the mail and fake priority envelope and the postman in Florida made me sign for he made me sign for my bulk. I thought that was kind of weird. Me say the weirdest thing to say weirdest, but what's a really I mean, obviously the dollar bill letter is intended to get attention. What other things can you do along with it? Say you send a dollar bill, they don't respond. What's another thing that you could do to just knock their socks off other

than just a real powerful ass headline? In other words, in your 30 years of doing this, what are some other techniques that have worked well for you? I mean, that's an attention generating type of deal. What else could you do to get a tube mailing? Have you ever heard of the tube mailing? No. Take cylindrical tube and you put a little key inside and it's for promotion that's big in retail called a treasure chest. You could use it and say, "This is a key to unlock your future success and profits." But anybody who gets a

tube in the mail is going to open it and you could have your message in there. It cost about 75 cents to mail it. Does your letter sh do those tubes? No. I've got a guy back in Ohio that does it. Okay. They can get you his number. They specialize in that. You can put whatever you want inside. Yes. But if somebody gets a tube in the mail and shake it and hear something inside, they're going to open it up. So, I'll tell you what I did that was in the millions. This guy had a

book on massage, a report on massage, and I said, "If you change it to erotic massage, I think it really improved the pull." And then I helped him do a letter with a photograph attached to the letter. Actually, it was a photograph of Pette the neglig. And it says, "Can you imagine spending a night with a woman who looks like this? That could either be the most exciting night of your life or it could be the most embarrassing." And that was the same when they mailed millions and millions of those. Huh. And they spelled the

right. Very nice. I'm very proud of you. So, so putting in a photograph, if you put in what appears to be a real photograph, that really gets people. I mean, do you like the the idea of me on my fourth sequence sending the photograph of me and Ununice with photo enclosed on the outside of the envelope. On the fifth letter, me and Jim Wolverton, the big chubby guy. Yeah. Again, I keep coming up to the work I do with Sam. The yada yada are all the same. We keep trying a way to add theater to

it. You change the drawing in the end and everything in the middle stays the same. Just cut and paste. You can mail from Hawaii. I was over here in Hawaii and I was just driving down the street and I saw this guy. It had a sign in the shop. I went in and talked to him about it and you had something to do with carpet cleaning. Then I took a picture of it and here's the picture. You need to That's interesting. That's a good actually not a bad idea. Yeah. If you if you want to

focus on something, focus on grabbers and segways. That's a good thing. You know, I sometimes at what's a segue? A segue is a way you transition from one thing to another thing. And I used to like dazzle audiences at my seminars, maybe you were there at the one. I would say, "Give me anything that you know reasonably, not a lampshade or something that you can attach to the top of a letter, and I will instantly right before your eyes do a segue of how that will fit into it." And try it. Just give me an

object you can attach to the top of the letter. A lottery ticket. Dear friend, as you can see, I've attached a lottery ticket to the top of this letter. Why have I done this? The answer is simple. Most people, when it comes to their personal income, leave it more up to chance than they do. they may as well be wasting money at the lottery. If you're doing that in your carpet cleaning business, you're not control of your financial fate anymore than some lowincome person thinks that they're going to get rich by buying a lottery ticket.

If you want to change them, see how you did. Okay, I got actually this is very helpful for all of us. What about a rubber band? I'm thinking what can you do with a rubber band? I've used the same openings and dear friend, as you can see, I've attached a rubber band to the top of this letter. Why have I done that? The answer is simple. There are 10 million rubber bands in the United States used every day of this exact size and nature. These rubber bands can be used to wrap around two or three

pencils, etc. But if you really want to, you can stretch that rubber band so that it will hold something that is 4 in in diameter. The rubber band doesn't cost anymore. There's no more rubber in it. It's just being more utilized. You just go on and on with us. Uh, band-aid. Well, band-aid's easy, dear friend. As you can see, I've attached a band-aid to the top of this letter. Why have I done this? The answer is simple. You most people when they get in trouble with their businesses, they start frantically looking around for answers. They

end up talking to marketing gurus who charge them, you know, enormous amounts of money, make them fly to places like Denver and listen to him, insult them, and and and after they come out of the ether, they realize he didn't give them any real solutions. He just gave them a goddamn band-aid. If you want real solutions, if you don't want, you know, just something that's going to evaporate overnight, you need to be talking to somebody who really knows his [ __ ] like Gary, how [ __ ] Okay, what about a nail file? A nail

file. Dear friend, as you can see, I have attached a nail file to the top of This leather. Why have I done this? The answer is simple. As you know, one of the major problems in the country with men over 50 years old is not often talked about. It's called impetence. I personally never gave this much of a thought until I looked up one day. I wasn't paying attention cuz the room was dark while I was making love to my wife who incidentally isn't even Jewish and she was filing her nails. You know, I knew

I was You could do this forever, but this stuff No, this is good stuff because grabbers always work. Like what would you do with a balloon for to sell something that had to do with making money? Is that too far of a stretch? No, none of them are too far of a stretch, but I think, you know, we could do this endlessly. And the point is made, you know, you can attach aspirins and segue into how it's going to Yeah, I've done that a lot. I had you could put a balloon in there and say,

you know, I'll tell you what, you go give this to a normal marketing consultant, ask him to blow it up, and you know what you're going to have? You're going to have inside that balloon the exact same thing that he will give you if you pay him for a consulting session. hot air, you know, and you know, you can just do it on and on and on. You could put a condom in there and talk about this is good. I'm going to use all these. No, all these are great. If we did this for an

hour, we would have like 40 billion cover letters. See, Gary doesn't realize how it comes to him. See, what we're doing is listening to the technique of how Gary does this and he's and he makes a story out of it and he just like goes into story trance. Just you doing these things that seem so simple to you. this for us and for other people who might be listening to this tape. That gives us an insight into how you put it together to segue it in there. Yeah. That doesn't come naturally to me. You don't

want to just do grabbers. You know, talk about ultimate theater. Ultimate theater would be to have a movie star deliver your letter, to have a courier deliver your letter, to send it by telegram, to send it by Federal Express. Theater is using that tear sheet method, you know, where it looks like a newspaper. Another piece of theater is you can tear something out that either was or looks like it was an ad in a trade publication. The million-dollar bill letter is an example of theater. Sending an oversized thing is an example of theater. The thing

is Ed Mayer, who was the dean of direct mail and now deceased, said one thing to me I've never forgotten. He said, "They don't remember what you said. They remember the look of your promotion." And a lot of times when you're getting a promotion over and over from the same guy cuz he's obviously using the same mailing list multiple times, you discard it immediately because you know what it is because of the way it has that look to it. You know, another thing you guys, if I could just free float for a little bit, another

thing that you people should be doing is running three, four, five, six page ads In these trade publications. These long copy ads almost always work better than anything else. you know, just do what you would do in a letter and put that letter in the trade magazine and you're effectively getting your letter delivered for a fraction of what it would be and also you're getting it in an environment that sort of has an implied endorsement from it. Another thing, get yourself a celebrity. Get yourself a loveboat type celebrity. You know, I worked in Hollywood for

a long time. Everybody thinks celebrities are all rich. Most of them can't pay their rent. and a Loveboat celebrity, somebody that's over the hill that they hire on the Love Boat for $600. Get yourself one of those people. Have a letter come from someone whose name has high marquee value. You can do that cheaper than you would think. My favorite people to go after is when every time you get a customer, you know, it's worth hundreds of thousands to you. Then you can really do some neat things. You can see I've enclosed an 8x10 photograph

of the entrance to your building. You know, I happened to be driving by the other day and I noticed that and stopped and got out and took a picture. Do you realize that there is something in this picture that's maybe you don't know it, but is repelling 70% of your customers? You remember the idea you told me about cutting out everyone's phone book ad and sending them in a copy of their actual phone book ad. Do you know any efficient way to do that other than just giving people stacks of phone books and scissors and

having them call? Where the hell do you get like every phone book in the country sent to you or a service that could do that clipping for you and provide you with the whole complete address or some [ __ ] like that? Well, if if I were going to do that, I would take the top 30 cities in the country or something which probably Represents 70% of the population and just clip those. I was thinking I should compile every phone book in the country and all the addresses first before I mail the letter [Music] for

the last 6 months. I've done that's a good idea to go down. You go to the insurance pros but I use Yeah, that's true. My regular sales letter. Yeah, you could actually I would not recommend you do that. What's that? Recommend. What? That you attach the yellow page. You don't recommend? No, I I mean, you might experiment with it, but I'm not as hot on that as when I first had that idea. Why? Time. Tell me what time. Tricky voice today. What time is it down there? Well, the time tell me what time. Well, the

way that started, all the people on the tape are like, "What the hell are they talking if you put competitors yellow page ad?" you that ad when they delivered the pizza eventually all the competitors are out of the yellow pages. But you know, one thing I want to stress is you guys don't really need so much exotic ideas is you need to be doing some really basic fundamental things Like I've been talking about in my current newsletter which is how to use email and websites in a way that really makes money and people are going

to be very tantalized by that. I use an example of the kind of people that infuriate me. And I tell you, this is a little preview of what's in my letter. When I had my office in LA, I got a call from these two guys. They worked for a company that sold consulting services to manufacturers in the US who were not selling to Pacific Rim countries who should be, who could make really make a lot more money if they were doing that. And what I told him to do is to get a sample of paper

money from each of the Pacific Rim countries. I don't know how many there are. Say there 15 of them. Put them all together, put a rubber band around them, you know, and scotch tape it to the first page of a letter and then federal express it to their prospects cuz every time they made a sale, it was hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then after the prospect got that, say, just I want you to do me a favor. Would you just unscotch tape that? Is that a word? unscotch tape this from the letter and take

a look at each one of those bills. That's real money. Each one of those is legal tender and one Pacific Rim company. The reason I'm sending you this is to dramatize a point is that your company is not selling any of these Pacific Rim countries and it could be you could be doing that easily and it's just found money for you. You should be doing it selling to Pacific Rim companies for America. Why don't more American companies do it? Because they don't know how to go about it. Yeah, it's true. It can turn into a

nightmare if you don't know how to do it, but it can turn into a dream come true if you do it the right way. That's where we come in. We have experience With that. You have exactly the kind of product slash andor service that would sell well. And he said, "I'm going to call you for an appointment. I'd like to talk to you." I said, "Do that first. FedEx it, then call the people." So the guys got really excited. They called me a month later. Said, "We'd love to talk to you again. We like that

idea." Said, "We want another idea." I said, "What? That one didn't work." as well. We never actually did that. But it was so much fun talking and I just blistered them. You know, the point is that wasn't just a good idea. That could be, you know, almost a life-changing idea for them, but they got excited about the idea and then they wanted another idea. And sometimes people chase ideas and chase. You want an idea for all you people, sir? Isn't [ __ ] direct mail for Christ's sake. I got it. Send letters to people and

ask them to send you money. Why do you think why do you think so many people don't implement? Because Maslo came out with he was a psychologist I think it was him the hierarchy of needs and what he said the number one hierarchy is that which is needed to sustain life you know survival and then another I think the second was sex to reproduce the race and so on and so forth. He was not right. The top of the hierarchy is the need for a human being to remain in his or her comfort zone. People

will do anything to remain in that comfort zone. You take a bar that's got high prices, dirty floors, and shitty service, and it's doing a good business. You buy the bar, clean it Up, lower prices, lose your clientele because they're not comfortable in there. Most people who win the lottery 36 months later are broke. Most widows and people who collect big insurance policies 3 or four years later they're broke. They've got to get back into that comfort zone. You are taught where you belong by the time you're four years old maximum. And you will unconsciously

fight to stay there. A guy boils down to is people hate change. Yeah. And whether it's good change or bad change. You take a guy that's never broke 90 playing golf in his entire life and all of a sudden he notices his first round he shot it in 40. He will adjust without knowing it that second round so that his score will be what it's quote unquote supposed to be. Some people they don't like it that they're never going to be anything. They can't accept that. And so they go to seminars, listen to tapes like

this and blah blah blah to give themselves the illusion of movement. There is no growth without injury. You got to be bloody. You don't learn to fight from reading and going thing. You get some information, you do it. Information is very important, but you got to do it. You know, you got to get in the battlefield. And people don't want to do that. No. One of the main reasons people leave us is when we change something and they come to us and say, "I wasn't hired under these conditions and I won't do this. They don't

want to change. That's one of the biggest reasons we have turn." What motivates you to get out of a slump or to get you moving when there's a lot Of resistance? Do you get yourself in a mindset? Do you have a ritual? I mean, what do you do? Believe it or not, this is as helpful to me as it is to you. Usually when I am in a slump there's a number of reasons for it and that's cuz I haven't talked to people like Sam and John and J A and people who have you know

the first condition to success the very first thing you have to have is the feeling that you deserve success if you don't have that you'll never have success. The second thing is that you have to believe that success is possible. And most people don't, you know, and that's why I like to talk to Sam and Leslie. You know, I could be talking with Sam and Leslie and John Carlton and some of my other friends and you know, the Nazis could be bombing us and everything else and we're not thinking whether or not we're going to

get out of this. It's how we're going to get out. We know we're getting out of it. you know, I stop that kind of contact, that kind of um and then it seems I do that and then all of a sudden I'm not working out at the gym, you know, and I'm not running on my treadmill, my apartment starts to look sloppy and it just and there I am, you know, and um you know, I really think seminars are more valuable to people who already know the information. Don't you? It re-energizes. Yeah. remind you what

you Well, I mean, that's why I listen to tapes all the time because it keeps you up. If there there's any other way, it keeps you in the mode. But see, I mean, I think it's human nature to throw roadblocks in front of yourself all the time. And I mean, someone told me that, you know, the difference between successful people and unsuccessful People, and there's a billion theories on this, is, you know, a few human behaviors. I mean, that sounds very simple, but it's true. I mean, there's a few things you do every day that

will either [ __ ] you up or help you. And it's just a matter of, like you say, the thing about deservance. I think that's a huge thing. I mean, the psychology of deservance, I think to me that's a big issue. I never to one actually get themselves in the mindset that they des, you know, I mean, uh, I would like to have a $100 million company or or hund00 million, however it lands in my lap, but I would like to get it, but it's a matter, you know, a lot of that has to do

not with technique and methodology. I kind of know that it's a lot of it has to do with deservance and working on the things that actually I I I really don't know how you come. I had a lot of imprinting from my parents that I didn't deserve it. Don't get too big for your bridges. We're just common people. We're white trash, you know, blah blah blah. And that's a tough one to overcome for all of us cuz you know, well, I mean, in your case, that's true. But I mean for others I mean I don't

know why you would deserve anything but uh well a lot of world the world and especially a lot of women agree with that. They think I don't you know and uh well actually I think the world is full of people who resent success in reality you know it any of you you're ever successful you got it by cheating by screwing other people by luck whatever it was they don't see where you risked your house and worked the 18our days and you know like Dondoo he said yesterday he was very successful he had two planes he

had a Porsche his previous business and one day he was pulling into the airport in his plane and he just left it out there and walked away and said, "Screw it. I'm not going to do it anymore." Really walked away from everything. My brother My brother, he knows what I'm getting into. He calls me Jimmy Vu. And he does the voice. You too. You too. Oh, that guy was amazing. Uh, well, you know, Carlton is interesting. You know, John wanted to come out and see me and give me a little birthday gift. John's lifestyle. He

he lives in a little house. He doesn't have bills and he has a great life. You know, he's a great guitar player. He's a talented artist and he works enough to give himself the money that he wants. And if there's any stress involved at all, he won't take it a moment a moment, you know. And I've envied him a lot. And, you know, I've just recently changed my life a lot cuz I got rid of all my employees, took 15 phone lines out cuz I I suck at manage. I hate it. I hate it, you

know, and this is what I do best. Have you tried? Uh I'm not saying you should. I'm just wondering because I feel I suck at management and I feel I suck at a lot of things. I'm pretty good at marketing, but I suck at a lot of things, but I'm always trying to I think all those things can be learned and blah blah blah blah. I don't want to know. Okay. No, no, I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to say you should. I mean, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying, what I'm curious is,

have you actually tried and just come to the conclusion that, hey, it's just not part of my wiring. I'm just not because I'm always freaking reading management books. I go to all these damn managers. Some I don't anymore. I I But did you That's what I'm I'm wondering. I I mean I mean are you a shitty manager because you just haven't got the training or you've got you've tried to get the training you just don't get it. I think more than anything I think it's boring as pig [ __ ] and I don't want to

personality styles. Joe, there are different personality styles and you know there are all different kinds of theories about personality styles. what Gary sees in you and he said yesterday real loud and clear and you should be listening to that is that he sees a lot of him in you and that he's telling you right now he's saving you if you'll listen to him a lifetime of grief by addressing the fact you know what I I'm taking this so far you know what I'm looking for I'm looking for the right person to hook up with to

publish my newsletter cuz I shouldn't even be publishing my newsletter my stuff is so frugal and makes so much money that if somebody who were a manager owned my newsletter and paid me. I mean, we could buy Denver. People call me out and say, "I want to resubscribe people." How come you never send me notices? You know, we never do. I never do anything I'm telling you guys to do. I don't do it. I mean, I invent it. I Yes, I do. I do it enough to test it to make sure it works and then

I abandon it. Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that part that you tested it and you're not just, you know, hey, you do what I say, not what I do. That's my MO. You know what? I work with Sam. Sam's the biggest mag in the world, you know? I mean, sit on there and just goes over every kind. He's inexhaustible. You have to do 400 ads a day, but it gets done. I've other people I work with. It gets done. You Know, this guy I'm working with, uh, I don't know if you know him. You

you might want to meet him. His name is Mitchnel, Bob Mitchnel. Sells diet stuff, and he's one of the good guys in the business. You know, me and John wrote some stuff for him back in the 80s, you know. I mean, this guy only works because he has to. And he's one of these guys, if he has a direct mail piece that pulls back 1.3%, he exploits it for all it's worth. John's working for these guys, they don't get 15%. You know, their business collapses, you know, continuity programs. I want to talk about that. I

want to whack these guys every month for 100 bucks, 200 bucks. Do you have any price point? Any ideas? Any suggestions? Oh, wait. No, back up. Let's get to that in a moment. I want to ask Samson. Okay. One thing that I deal with with employees and always have ever since I had my first employee and uh what was the first business I had? The first business I had where I had five employees in a in an office manager. It was an advertising company where we sold advertising space on phone book covers. Every time I

get an employee, I always respond to them not as an employee but almost I try to perceive people as an equal. And I know this intellectually, but I still can't keep myself from probably wanting them to really excel, wanting to get them motivated, wanting, you know, handing them a tape set, handing them Hasslinger and I met at a ski lodge after we hadn't seen each other for about 10 years, sharing reminiscence. And the biggest lament of both of us is how many people we try to motivate that didn't want it for themselves. And it's the

most fruitless thing in the world. Most fruitless endeavor in the world. Well, the other thing is u the reason you want to look at them as an equal is you want their friendship and approval. And you should never do that with an employee. Never look for friendship or approval. Okay. Well, the reason I'm asking you is because you obviously have 170 employees and see you know how I communicate to the world. I communicate to the world is as if everyone is an entrepreneur. It is so hard for me to even understand the employee mindset. how

someone could even work for somebody and not do this. Now, because it's so difficult for me to even think back when I was an employee, you know, it's very hard for me to even respond to people, which I think is the root cause of me being a shitty manager because I'd love everyone to come into my company and make 50 to 100 grand a year. But most of them don't want that. Everybody works, like Gary said, to their comfort and you scare the [ __ ] out of them. You scare the [ __ ] out

of them and you're trying to turn them into an entrepreneur, but that's not what they are. And that's where the problems run. And Gary's gone that many things. Yeah. The next step after I sell as much information as I can to the carpet cleaners, get a nice little backend going where they're subscribing to my newsletter, buying tape sets, is to get Them on the automatic till further notice types of deals to where it becomes very autopilotable every month. It's maintenance and we just hit them. Because see the point is and I don't think it's focused

a lot much on the JPDK model is to sell product sell product sell product saturate a market go into another market. I think I could sustain a very good business through carpet cleaning that I could either get sick of and then eventually sell because it is all automatic, you know, because see the thing is with this type of business once you establish yourself as the guru, it's very hard to just sell that to someone else. I mean, and have another guru step in. I mean, we're almost creating businesses here that might be difficult for someone

else to take over. Not that they couldn't be sold, but in order for someone to take it over and it continue to be profitable because boom, you know, you're building the newsletter around the personality. You know, you said the personality letter sell. I mean, if you were to sell Gary Halbert letter to someone else, I don't think it would ever work. It'd be gone. But at the same time, you take something like our businesses, her business, Terry's business, mine, which, you know, it's based around a guru. Well, it's hard to sell that without like a

continuity program. Well, I've got 500 people here that are paying a hundred bucks a month, and if you sustain this and maintain this, then, you know, there's probably very viable business here. But the point is, it's not necessarily just a sell. That's down the road thinking. But what I want to do now is, you know, I'm getting to the point where I've hit magazine saturation. So, the next step is direct mail. After I mail all of these people and sell them a marketing program, I want to sell them again. And what I want to sell

them again on is something that brings in the most amount of cash with the least amount of labor. And to me, That's like a $97 a month automatic charge or 250 a month. And what I want to get from you is, is there any price that you think is better than the other 97? I shouldn't do 197. Well, that's my opinion. You may want to test it, but I like 97. Okay. And it's some that's a tested price by Phillips, by the way. My publishing. Yeah. And my newsletter probably should be priced at 97 instead

of 197. I heard you say that a long time ago, and you said you were going to try, but you never did, of course. But that's cuz you never do anything. Cuz I'm dysfunctional. Um, would you recommend that to us or should we still stay at the 197 price point? Well, I don't like to recommend change to success, but you're talking about the continuity program. Okay. So, let's I think that 97 a month was great. Okay. So, let's say we're doing a $97 a month continuity program. At what time do we pitch people into that

after they buy the course? Well, I'm I mean, some of these might be too specific or something, but I'm just trying to get general ideas. This is what I want to do. I want to know when should I pitch it? How should I pitch it? What should it include? That type of stuff. continuity programs. What do you say to solve? You take your lifetime subscriber deal, which is, you know, pretty cool because you sell it for 2,900 bucks. But your problem is you sell a shitload of them and then you spend all the money and

then you have to be like chained to these people for eternity and the only way that you can actually my lifetime subscribers are the least Least of all. You know what? That's kind of true, too. The people that give me the most amount of money, the least amount of stress. Yeah. I When they call me, they say, "Gary, I I don't want to take a lot of your time. I just need to know one thing. what's the name of that guy in Atlanta that blah blah blah and I tell him he said well thanks you

know that's it because those are the top people okay well that's good okay but the problem is there's a cash flow thing there because the money was gotten 5 years ago you spent it okay I want something ongoing on a regular basis because you know see my my thing is if if I sold a bunch of lifetime subscriber things I'd probably sell a shitload of them and I'd spend all the money and two years from now I'd be pissed pissed off question my question is pitching it tell me about how you would recommend all three

of us could do this four of us I mean what am I talking about all four of us could pitch a $97 a month program. What's the best way to do it? According to Gary, hold a seminar. Okay. Make your best pitch for it. Tape it. Get the vide tape to all of your subscribers. Okay. And should we just send it for free? Should they lead generate for it? If you're interested in this, send them a dollar bill letter. Don't ask them to buy or respond. Just tell them the video is coming or put the

video in with the package. And the only thing is all I'm doing this is to get your attention. I want you to watch the video. Okay. What are you going to sell them? What do you mean? What do they get every month? Oh, well that's one question I want to ask you. But I was thinking about a tape of the month. I do already have a tape of the 250 subscribers that pay me. This is why I want to do a continuity program cuz I have a client newsletter, which is a newsletter I write for

them to send to their Incidentally. I know the answer to the question, but I want to hear your answer. You know the answer to what question? How to what you should sell them. Okay. Well, what I'm going to sell them already and what I want to find out is what more could I add to it? Is I've got my client newsletter currently, which I have two versions. I have the basic version, which is 27 bucks a month, which is this the paper, and then the deluxe, which is it on disc for 47 bucks a month.

Then I have my tape of the month club, which I charge $1853 a month. And then I have my Piranha Marketing Letter, which they're paying 197 bucks a year for. So, I want to put all that stuff together so there's not three different charges. It's all together. Then I want to add a weekly broadcast facts. I want to add like every 3 months they're going to get quarterly updates, uh, Q&A, free reports, free books, uh, bonus cassettes, stuff like that. Possibly a I don't know how often, but a teleconference where I want to replace my

actual consultations and critiques with teleconferences. So I'm not talking to one person, I'm talking to a hundred people at a time. And so they get a monthly teleconference with Joe. So I spend an hour a month or every, you know, twice a month, they get that. Then uh bonus reports here and there. Uh discounts on all Piranha products, future boot camps, stuff like that. They're doing it for $99 a month by invitation only. Well, actually, I think there's a lot better product to sell than that. Okay. What is it? If you were still cleaning carpets,

I think what you'd appreciate even more than that is that you got sent a brand new, fresh, creative promotion to get you new customers every month. And you could build a lot of value into that. You could say that you worked with six of the top copywriters. They brainstormed for 3 days. This is what they came up with this month. It's a lead generator followed up by this script, etc., etc. You send them a fresh way to get customers every month. Rather than I mean, the other stuff is good, too, but wouldn't you love to

have that every month you get a new way to Did you hear that, Jerry? You send a fresh new way to get customers every single month. That's talking to you. Um, and that's part of the continuity program and say that we spent cuz that's what they really want. We spent a couple days with five of the hottest marketing minds and one of the largest psychotics in the country. But you know what they really want though is they want it done for them. And you can do that and you can build a lot of value. You

can say if you had had this done, you'd have had to pay $30,000. It's true. Okay. Okay. Would you limit it to create a sense of urgency like only 200 people can sign up or how would you create a sense of urgency for that? Dan wrote me a letter that said, "Only 200 people can sign up. You're not going to get a second letter. This is it. You got to sign up right now." And I loved the letter except I didn't like that part. I didn't like the close because it's like, well [ __ ]

what if I only signed up 10 people off this one and I want a sequential mailing and what if I don't want 200 people. I want a thousand people doing this. The continuity pitch I got, which I'm going to use a good portion of it. I just want to improve it. You know, I want to get more people. I mean, like I said, I want the the carpet cleaning thing. I want a,000 guys paying me 100 bucks a month. That's a million point. One of the things you could do is have it built around something

timely like Haley's Comet coming or the Super Bowl. It is if you have this promotion now in place ready to go before the Super Bowl airs or before the Olympics, you know, you'll be able to take advantage of it. Okay. Timeliness. And of course, your competitors, if you don't do it, your competitors are going to eat you alive. Okay? There's Now Sam's the admiration with as many ads as he runs. Most companies aren't going to do that, right? No. Well, I have to change them all the time. You You guys are talking about one specific

focus you're on. We're all realistically most of them aren't going to do that. And you have a problem with the client newsletter because what happens is they get the next one the next month. They didn't send the one out before, right? Maybe send promotions maybe every two. Let Let me mention something. Let Let me mention something because you you made a really good point. what he's talking about is the exact reason why I want to do a continuity program. Now, hear me out. I send out the client newsletter. Like I said, I two versions. The

basic, which is the paper version for 27 bucks. The deluxe version for 47 bucks a month, which is the deluxe. Now, the problem is it's hard enough for me to write my damn newsletter and I get paid for it. Let alone these guys, you know, they're sending out a free newsletter to their carpet clean clients to stay in touch with them every month cuz I'm telling them to. However, they're busy. They've got a million other things to do in life and they've got, you know, comfort zone problems like everyone else. So, they send out the

newsletter this month. Approximately 4 weeks later, they're supposed to have the thing printed and dropped it that day, but they they get a week behind. So, it goes out 5 weeks. Then the next month, they're 3 weeks behind. Pretty soon, they drop. I lose them. So, I figure, well, how could I keep them? Well, the way that I keep them is I build that newsletter into a continuity program. So, even if they don't send the damn thing out, they still keep paying me every month because they got to get that free report, they got to

get that cassette tape, they got to get all the other stuff that comes with it. So then it becomes irrelevant that they're not sending it out every single month because they want all the other [ __ ] anyway. And it's a way for me to sustain the life of these people because you get a,000 cleaners paying you 47 bucks a month. That's half a million dollars a year. But if you're losing pretty much 70% of them after 3 months because they can't keep the damn thing out every month, then what do you do? Well, the

way you do it is you package it up around something else. So the bonuses are far more valuable than the fact that they aren't getting the thing out. Does Does that make sense? Well, I think I think packaging the new promotions now that still doing the same all those things, client newsletter, tape of the month, your PRA, you know, The regular newsletter and that bonus of a new promotion every two months would probably keep them from canceling even if they don't get the client newsletter out. Mhm. Yeah. I want it to be where if they

don't even mail the damn thing, they don't care. They just want the [ __ ] I I was actually thinking, okay, forget all that and have the continuity program, just the new promotion every two months. But if it's still all packaged in together, they're probably not going to cancel because even if they're not running the ads, they know they're not going to get another one for another 2 months, right? I want it to be that might be another reason to stick. I want them to be getting hit with every angle. Like the people that get

my best customers are the people that get my tape of the month program. I charge $1853 a month for it. I have 250 subscribers and I've never hard pitched it. Now I'm getting ready to hard pitch it with this sales letter. But the point is, it's worth more than $1853 a month. The information is killer. I mean, I interview some great people and $1853 a month. I could afford to send these tapes of the month out to everyone for free and still make money. Because the interesting thing about my tape of the month is it's

not just the 1853. The tape of the month fuels the backend. Everyone that signs up for my tape of the month, the majority of everyone that goes to my boot camps gets my tape of the month program. Why? Because every single month they're being educated more about marketing through my tapes of the month. So that it's a valuable thing that every one of my clients should be getting. And I could make money by sending it out for free, but I don't want to do that because I know if I pitch it right and I package

it right, it's a huge profit center. Well, one thing I think is whatever you're giving them every month should tease them into what's coming next month. I kind of do that in the newsletter. I always mention, well, next month I'm going to, you know. Yeah. I don't quite understand is that it doesn't seem to be how to get them in the continuity program, but how to keep them in. Is that it? No, it's kind of a combination of how to get them in, what to offer them, and how to keep them in. I mean, I

think he's given us some great techniques for getting them in. I think really the focus now is how to keep them in. We just have here a ton of stuff. I mean, the nirvana would be for you to sit down and write me a sales letter right now. But, of course, the $7,000 offer, it's the seven the $7,000 summit. That is an irresistant. You say they want that more than they want. I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to sign up. I'm going to get the $7,000 thing for for free just for signing

up. So, we got them in. I'm going to charge them 197 bucks upfront fee to get signed up. That includes they get the tapes of my most recent boot camp which people paid $1,500 a person just for signing up in this. They pay $197 initiation fee. It's $97 every month to be part of it. So that's my pitch. I think that sounds realistic. How do we keep them in from there? The key to keeping them coming for it is one word that is used about my newsletter more than any other newsletter I've ever heard is

it's addictive. That's what the continuity program has to be if you want it to exist in perpetuity. It has to be addictive. Now, you're going to have a certain amount of fall-off in a continuity program. Period. Period. They're going to go out of the carpet cleaning business. They're going to die, etc., etc. But I think now what you're talking about really is delivering you delivering excitement and all the rest of it every month in a way. I don't know that that's a marketing thing. Let's talk about Well, wait a wait wait wait a minute here.

Here here's a way that you could do it. Get them on the continuity program and send them a sales letter every month for what they've already bought and tell them it's coming. You're telling them every month basically what they already Yeah. and say, you know, I'm sending you this letter because I want to tell you next Tuesday I'm putting in the mail the tapes of the blah blah blah seminar at the Southeast Marriott. I want you to just don't forget this because I was talking to Sam Fishbine and John Carly and Gary Halbert and you

know Pammy yelling blah blah blah and say this is going to be exciting and just keep pitching that. Pitch it every month. Don't take it for granted. Okay. So it's a stick letter every month. Stick letter every month. That that's an original idea, I think. Okay. You know, on the other hand, there's something else you need to think about. Oh, there's a guy in Las Vegas who was making a lot of money with a postcard, and he paid me $10,000 to rewrite the Postcard. Now, he had paid me an enormous amount of money before that

cuz I made him really a multi-millionaire. But the postcard I wrote didn't work as well as his original postcard. And you know why? cuz I clarified what the message was and the the and it was [ __ ] The the the offer sucked. I mean, you know, and but I made it clear. I clarified. That's what I naturally try and do. You know, sometimes I don't know this to be true and I'm not recommending. It's just a thought. You know, on a continuity program, maybe the best thing is let sleeping dogs lie. You know, just

get them signed up on it and uh hope they don't wake up. Yeah, just just charge them every month. Just charge them every month. I'm going to sign up a bunch of people. I'm going to give them the option of every month or signing up for a year with a discount. All right. Oh, you you had mentioned something about going Well, I don't know if this applies to everyone else though, but you wanted me to uh you know, which I'm going to end up spending about $600 with Laura so she can research dust mites cuz

you had this idea of going to consumers and somehow using those leads to funnel into my my guys or some [ __ ] I don't know what the hell you were thinking, but uh you had a thing of selling to the consumers that the actual people that we're marketing to sell, you know, generate leads, whatever. Well, you know, I'll tell you what. If if you want to play on what the ultimate person wants is if they're in the business, what they really want is they would like the phone ringing every day and say, "Hey, my

carpet's dirty. You know, I'd like you to come out and clean it." Is that not so? Yeah, that's Yeah. Okay. And I don't even know if it's a viable thing to do cuz we're just talking. But nobody's going to do that advertising better than you. And let's say that you were running full page ads in the Rocky Mountain News and you were talking about how dangerous bacteria and other microscopic bugs invading bedroom carpets in Denver. You tell the whole story about them. You tell how you can get a free test kit. And then you get

thousands of those test kits and then those leads are sold to people here in the Denver area. I don't know if that is something that's workable for you doing, but I'll tell you what people really want. I got clear on this about 10 15 years ago and it's it's something you know I you should know from birth, but I got clear a very specific way. I was having trouble getting my engine and my boat repaired. you know, was always unsatisfactory to break down. And there was a guy to advertise this little vote v bo voting

publication on having a seminar on how to repair a marine engine. And I nearly signed up for this seminar. But, you know, then I thought, I really don't want to know how to repair a marine engine. I want it repaired. Another time, this is back when I was in LA and I and I just had more money than I I was literally trying to give my money away, you know? I I had more money than I knew what to do with. And this guy wrote a book on how to invest in gold coins. I wrote

him a letter, you know, I tracked him down, called him and sent him a h 100red grand and said, "Buy me gold coins." The point of this is, you know, people come to a copywriting Seminar for three reasons. One is because they are warriors and want to give themselves the illusion of movement. The second group is because they want the information so that they can go do it. The third group come there and they may not know it when they come, but the real reason they want to know it is if you have your [

__ ] wired or not and they can hire you to do it because in reality, I would guess none of you really want to know how to write copy. If you would like Well, you you might I I don't know why anybody would want to know that. I mean, you know I mean if if I could hire somebody to do it, I would. You don't want to know how to fix your car engine. You want the engine to work. By the same token, I'm talking about the ultimate carpet cleaners and all these other niches. They

don't want to really know how to market. They want the customers. This program continues with tape 6. Jim Wolverton made is that carpet people in America hire a carpet cleaner the majority of the time not because of dirty carpets but because of an event in their life. And I think that applies to many different things. People do business with someone in a lot of situations more so than the reason that you initially think well the carpet looks like [ __ ] Well, it's looked like [ __ ] for 6 months. So why did you decide

to get the carpet clean right now? Well, there's an event occurring. The in-laws are coming over. Same thing with Sam. I bet a lot of people buy furniture. They h Yeah, they needed a new couch for 2 years. But there's an event. something has occurred in the mind that has made them want to do that. And that's the same thing with Hiring a carpet cleaner is 90% of the time there's an event as to why they're hiring it, not because they have dirty carpet. Almost all furniture sold because you have a time-sensitive offer. And that's

part of the challenge all the time is to lend credibility to why you've got to act now. It's interesting. Those mattresses are sold based on people sleeping on their mattress until the springs pop through and they're eating into their back. I just bought one of those $2,000 Select Comfort Do you like those? No, but they they're I love it. Well, it's an air mattress, I guess. Uh they're promoting very heavily. They're doing a lot of infomercials. They're on the 500 list. It's one of the fastest growing kind. You don't like those mattresses? No, cuz I

don't know what the uh longevity of those is going to be compared to conventional mattress. You know, anything that has air in it. You have You have one. You like it? I love it. I don't like it. I want to get one of those temp. I know. I want to get one of those tempropedic ones. Memory phone. Oh, memory phone. The one I was looking What do you think of this? Oh, the best one I think the highest rated one by Consumer Reports is the Simmons Beauty Rest because it has each coil is individually wrapped

in its own Little sack. So when you lay down, every inch of your body has its own coil to support it where on most mattresses it's not even. It's more spread out so you have more pressure points. So I don't it's everybody has their own. Which mattress is that? Is that the air mattress? No, she has one. I have one and he's he doesn't. What about the air mattress? Have you heard about that air mattress? He's got what a mark. Have you got their stuff? They are tremendous marketers. I don't even really want Brian told

me to call them and listen to it. I'm happy with my mattress. But reading this stuff, I'm going I got to get one of these. So, I actually ordered one and then they lost the order. But then I cooled off. I mean, it was so compelling and they got the money back guarantee. Try it free for 90 days. And then you don't buy. 30 days later, you get another letter saying, "We'll pay the shipping." Okay. All of a sudden, now the shipping gets more and more irresistible. I got mine without shipping and stuff. And uh

what's the real story on that Sam on that mattress? Just another angle on sleep things. Futons were hot for a while. Water beds were, you know, that's a pad coming and I think it'll go after a while because of their marketing. The problem with air is it loses it after a while and it's going to change over time. Well, they got little air pumps on. Oh, I know. You know, they said they said they ran over it with like a pickup truck or semi-truck like 40,000 times. It never lost less than 10% of its elasticity.

And it's a 20-year guarantee on it. Well, they're growing by leaps and bounds. They started, you know, pisses me off about those. You can't bounce on them. That's why I buy bed. Why don't you try it? You got balance. Use it as a trampoline. But what you can do is dig a big hole in your backyard and then tie scraps to it that way or use it for trampoline for the neighborhood. Either way. So, uh, do you write the majority of your ads and then have this other place lay them out or you do all

the I do everything. I do the layout on what? Word? No, Cork. Quirk. I use Adobe Photoshop and Quirk. So, you're a Macintosh guy, right? Yeah. I haven't gone to PC yet. Windows version, but uh they're still not as good as Macintosh. Yeah. And too jerky and too slow. So, on what day? What day? They've been out for 7 days. Counting the day you took them to the post office is day one. Kyle Hunter mailed them with personalized post-it notes, each one personalized. George, what I'm saying is making the day that he mailed them day

one. All right. So, these are results as of day seven. Mhm. And how many calls do you have? Six leads. Okay. Now, how do you close a lead? Is that from a phone sale? No. A lead goes into the pre-recorded message where we send them a free report. So, six people have been sent a But you don't have they don't have a report, right? Obviously. Right. So, you couldn't have any sales? No. They could have the report, but the report would only be in their hands for a couple of days. Yeah. Wait, no, no, no,

no. That doesn't make sense because six leads, 71 Nixies and no sales. Um, I think he's probably referring to the sales letters have been out for 7 days because how would we get the Nixies back that quick? Mhm. Right. The tear sheet mailing has been out and that's what the Nixis are, right? Mhm. Okay. Now, let me tell you something you may find important someday. When were these letters mailed? I don't know the exact date. Why don't you pick up the phone and call your office and ask them to grab a handful of pixies? Okay.

And then find out what the postmark they they were mailed on. I got a big direct mail winner. Well, tell us. It's to dentist and um it sells $177 book and we just got the early results and it's already in profit. Is it a onestep letter going out to a group of dentists? Yes. How was the list selected? Whether or not they were dentists. You bought a comp. You just bought a compatibility. Yeah, we didn't use those though. Eric wanted to get the names. If he can If he can send a letter straight selling $177

book and it works, why couldn't we? Yeah. Well, because you're not copyrighted like me, right? Well, where's your letter? I want to see this letter so I can knock it off. So I can say, "Are you sick of being a professional carpet cleaner?" Tell us about the promotion. Come on. Did Gary come clean? It's got an envelope. No. So, start start off. This dentist came to you and he had this idea. No, none of that. So, okay. What? Tell us the story. I actually don't want to talk to you about dentist. I really don't want

to tell you that story. I'll tell you other stories. I don't want to tell you dentist stories. Okay. Sam doesn't want to tell you dentist stories either. Sam, you know, personally, Gary though, since we are paying for this, I'd like to spend the rest of the afternoon talking about dentists. I mean, that would make me happy. I want to talk about teeth. I want to talk about cavities. What we need to hear is over and over again different ways of saying the same thing. This is what the client had. This is what he needed. This

is what I did. This is what I nailed. This is what I said. This is how I selected the list. This is what happened. Is that what you want to hear? Is that what you want to hear? Sure. What do you want to hear? That sounds good. The first he says what I'm talking they came to you. They said, "Here's what I think that I can do." And then you said, "Well, then this is what we'll do." And then you this type of a letter. You mailed this type of list. You got these kind of

results. You made these kind of offers. Well, I will tell them about the dentist for you and I'll tell them about the one. The dentist came to me and they were selling a $1,300 seminar and I wrote an eightpage letter for them and Sam helped me write it and did the mechanics and we mailed 10,000 of the letters and it cost $12,000 to mail those and we got 200 sales at $1,300 a piece and the dentist didn't mail any more of the letters and there were 150,000 more dentists to mail. They quit. Wow. Why? That's

the part we don't want to do. Not not talking about that just because. What about this new person? That's because their wives started saying, "No, there no wives involved." You know what it is? I think it's got to be the comfort zone again. You know, it's like these guys ended up doing things like having conference call for a week to determine whether a trade name Should have a hyphen in it or or where where the trademark should be or Yeah. And just they focused on minutia cuz they're dentists. Yes. Which is why they are dentists.

Exactly. And God love them. We all need dentists. Then they start ripping apart the letter because of certain things that say I don't like the way it says this. And I Oh, I don't think you should say it that way. That kind of stuff. And then they just stop stop doing it. But this is now another thing here. You got What was the $177 book? What was what did it? It's a book on how to get unlimited new patients. This a different dentist. This is not even a dentist. It's a guy who consults with dentist

wrote the book. Okay. And he came to you with an idea for the book. He wrote the book. He wrote What's the bonuses? Any bonuses, newsletters? Nothing. Just a book. Yeah. No maintenance, no tail. No. Any back end? People who read the book hire him to do consulting. But you know, I mean, you know, that letter doesn't even have a return envelope or coupon or nothing. It's just a letter. So, the $177 book that you're selling, you mailed how many letters? 10,000. No, that was a $1,300 seminar. It cost you $1,300 to go to the

seminar or for the same amount of money you got the tapes of the seminar and sales. Home study course. Home study course. Mailed 10,000. Got 200 sales. 200 sales. And bearing in mind, they lost a lot of the sales. I mean, physically lost them because they're dentists. They didn't know how to handle them. They had a girl in their office totally. They were working with trailer trash employees, right? So, this $177 book that you just hit on today, how many were those were mailed? I don't want to talk about that. Okay. How about some other

stories? You mean like winner stories? Yeah, winner stories of people came to you said, "I have this product. I'm not able to sell it or I have this idea." Well, let me tell you what the some of the tough ones. See, you guys really have a marketing problems. Honestly, I don't mean to brag, but I could solve them in a coma. This is just brain dead stuff, you know. I mean, you know, you're not mailing any letters. What's the solution? Mail some letters, you know, that it's like basic piece of advice. And you know what?

My stuff's not working. Well, write some new stuff and mail some new stuff, you know, and do some different things. But the one that really got me is I had this guy, uh, Frank Robinson came to me and he says, I want to hire you. How much you charge? How much? I said, I told him. But he hired me. I said, okay, what do you got? He says, "I got a name." And what's the name? Pearl Cream. I says, "What do you got to go with it?" Nothing. That's all I got is the name. I

said, ' That's it. I a name. Pearl Cream, right? He says, "Yeah, I saw it in Hong Kong and they use it for a lady's skin lotion. They say it's made of pearls. I like the name." I said, "You paid me all this money to promote and all you got is pearl cream, right?" He says, "Yeah." He says, "You'll figure it out, right?" I said, "Sure." He said, "Tell me what I need to do." I said, "Okay, we need some kind of skin lotion. It's got pearls in it." He writes on the list. I said,

"We need a celebrity." And so he goes out and he gets Nancy Quan, who's an oriental actress who won the Academy Award for The World of Suzie Wong. Then I wrote a newspaper ad for him. And the newspaper ad just broke even. It didn't go any place, but breaking even newspapers pretty good. But then he did a television commercial and that just broke even. And then or part of what I did is I wrote like seven reports, Oriental Beauty Secrets, and that made the television ad go. And that's the famous Nancy Quan Pearl Cream commercial,

which ran for years upon years upon years upon years. And you know what the funny thing about that story? Frank died about two years ago, and the last thing he did is have Nancy Quan come to his death bed so he could confess he cheated her out of her commission. And I mean, he was paying me commissions, too, but he didn't call me in. So, I don't know what the hell that meant. He paid me a lot of money. That was one. Um, the board dimes, Ernest and Toby, hired me, and they were losing about

$20,000 a month. And I took them to 800,000 a Month in half a year. And the way I did it is I created an ad for them with the headline, the amazing facelift in the jar for Hollywood stars who don't want plastic surgery. Tova had been looking for years for a fragrance to add to her line called Tova. And uh she had kept traveling all over the world to get these little guys in Twitter pants mix these concoctions and never got anything to her satisfaction. And I was reading an article in the National Inquirer that

said that almost all perfume is made from alcohol, water, and an essential oil. If you know what essential oil is used to make your favorite perfume, you can make it at home for a fraction of the cost. Well, I was in Westwood and I saw this kiosk, this open air kiosk where they sold almost in test tubes all these different essential oils and I said to the girl, "What's the most popular one?" And she said, "China Musk by far." I said, "Why doesn't somebody pour China Musk in a bottle and call it ABC perfume and

put it on the market?" She says, "I don't know. Sounds like a good idea. So I bought some China Musk, poured it in a bottle, took it to a jeweler, had it engraved it with the name Tova. And then Tova and Ernest Ford and I were at a photo shoot when I went down there and I delivered this bottle to Toba and she said, "What is that?" And I said, "That's the new fragrance you've been looking for." She takes a sniff of it. She just loved it, you know. And uh she said, "What's the formula?"

She said, "You're a genius." I said, "Yeah, I'd be the last to deny that." She said, "What's the formula?" I said, "Well, It's kind of the secret." So then she fell in love with it and we decided to have a perfume launch. And she was going to have the perfume launch on Rodeo Drive at a little boutique that's owned by Candy Spelling, who at that time was Aaron Spelling's wife, the guy that produces all the TV shows. But it would only hold about 150 people. And I said, "If you let me do it the way

I want to do it, you need a much bigger place." He said, "How much bigger?" I said, "You need the entire Century Plaza Hotel, entire bottom." and she'd learned to trust me by then, but she'd went white when she did that because that was an expensive proposition. And I wrote an ad that got 7,000 people in the middle of the week to show up for that perfume opening. It was the biggest perfume opening in history. Time magazine wrote it up. We got unsolicited purchase orders from Federated, the biggest department store chain, Berdine's May company filings.

And the headline I used was that wife of famous movie star swears under oath that her new perfume does not contain an illegal sexual stimulant and agrees to give away 10,000 samples of her new fragrance in order to prove that it's safe to wear in public. The news media picked it up and the only reason we only had 7,000, the fire marshals wouldn't let anybody else in. Right after that, my relationship with the Bourdines ended partially because that campaign was put on hold because Tova Borg's astrologer told her that it wasn't the right time to

launch a perfume. And she made all her decisions based on her astrologer. And I thought, well, you know, I invented your perfume, gave you the biggest launch in history, and I had a piece of this. And yet, you know, my fate is being controlled by Some [ __ ] airbrain new age astrologer. I don't think this is proceeding the way it's supposed to be. You know, the ones where that people come to you with absolutely nothing are the real challenges where they just have we little bits of it. The easy ones are where it's already

working. It's just limping along. What you can't make work, you can't make work an appeal that's not on target. A good copywriter cannot sell refrigerators to escalones. Now, he can trick them into buying it. You know, he could commit fraud and get them to tell them they're space heaters, but the main thing is that you have to have an audience that's hungry for the solution or benefit of what you're selling. If you've got that, then you can start using all these marketing things and tricks with it. I'll tell you one story that's real interesting, and

I've done variations of it over the years, but I didn't do the first one. Readers Digest years ago had a subscription promotion where the price was either 98 cents, $1.98, or what have you. And they sent two pennings attached to the first page of the letter with the theme, here's your change. And that promotion was one of the best that they had ever had. And it worked so well. And they mailed so many that just the Nixis, you know, was the jillion Nixies. And they found out that they could not take the pennies off the

letters. It cost more than two cents labor to do that. So they hired the Boy Scouts in Pleasantville, New York to take the pennies off. The Boy Scouts got To keep one and Readers Digest got together. The Boy Scouts made enough from that that they built their new clubhouse in Pleasantville. And I've used that penny promotion so many times. Did you know that Phillips for the promotion I wrote for the retirement letter literally had to have new pennies minted and they had to have frayed them in. They were minting pennies because of my promotion and

framing them in to get them. My favorite thing in direct mail is to attach grabbers and my favorite grabber is money. And you know one thing I thought about John said something real interesting. He was telling Rodeale, you know, these clients that he has in Bazelia, he's going to the same audience, you know, getting close to 30 times now, essentially selling the same thing, which is a tape that teaches you how to kill people, you know, and so the next tape says, "Well, if you think that last guy was bad, wait, do you hear about

this guy?" And it's the same thing. And so we used all kinds of gimmicks to do it. But John said, "These people get kind of used to those sales letters like coming from an old friend." And I was thinking sometimes if you had an offer like to carpet cleaners that you could send them a bank note from Venezuela one month and a bank note from Australia the next month and I'll bet you they kind of get used to that. Maybe they would and sort of like it. I'll tell you one of the most successful promotions

I ever did. There was a diet product on the market called Gluccom Maninon. It's a good product too. It's a fiber-based product and you take the pill and drink a glass of water and expands in your stomach and it added a lot of fiber. Gave you a feeling of fullness and all the benefits of fiber. And what I did is I found out that Japanese one yen coin is made out of aluminum and weighs practically nothing. And so I attached that to the top of the letter. And the the premise of the letter was, you

know, I'm attaching this to get your attention and because what I'm about to tell you about was discovered in Japan. And then what I did is I went on to say that this product has gone through the Japanese equivalent of the FDA and other testing things, but that is not considered valid in the US. So just because this is proven in results, we want to tell you that we are not specifically saying if you use this product that you will and then you know burn up to four inches off your waist, do this, do that,

do this and that they tens of millions of that one. So that's kind of an interesting marketing story. I think if I would have just general advice about Berry Trim. Oh wow. Yeah. I just got paid my last 40,000 on Berry Trim. I worked three days on that and got paid a,240,000. And on that one, the way it went, the guy couldn't even afford to hire me. But he sort of impressed me. So he paid me half the money and I wrote an ad to sell the diet product, but I wouldn't give it to him

till he paid me the other half the money, you know, plus paid me my standard 5%. He ran it in his newspaper. It worked really well. He says, "Is there any way to punch it up?" I said, "Yeah, let's take your picture out of the ad, put a celebrity's picture in the Ad." And we got Jeff Scott from Dynasty, put his picture in the ad. He was Crystal's ex-husband, the tennis player. And then that jumped up the promotion. He said, "What else we could do?" Then we could start doing as a tear sheet mailing. And

we started mailing it as a tear sheet. And Kyle Hunter did it. We were mailing 125,000 personalized letters a day on that one. Now, think about that. Guy paid me 1,240,000. Think what he made. What I like is he blew all the money. He bought a senior's baseball team. I don't know if he said drugs, but he went through all of that. But he's doing it again now, isn't it? He's not because he was part of a like a 15 promotion. Sweet. And I think that one's pretty much run its course by the FDA. Yes.

Somebody some I I don't know. It's It's actually a pretty clean ad, but So, I mean, I don't think he's in any serious trouble with it, but I think he's not going to be able to exploit it the way he did before. Uh, you want to talk about my tear sheet mailing? Yeah. Okay. Well, we mailed out 2500 of these ads right here. It was a copy of this ad with an actual red headline that says, "The big money is not in carpet cleaning. It's in marketing carpet cleaning services and that discovery changed my life."

And then it's asking for call and get a free report. That's All the ad is designed to do is to get people to call an 800 number to get a free report. We mailed 2500 of these to a list we got from Database America 14 days ago, Tuesday, May 27th. How do you know? Tony knows. He looked at the Nixies. He looked at the Nixie. We mailed 2500 of them. We got 71 Nixies back so far. Out of those 2500 names, we've got six leads. No sales. Sales letters have been out. Is it new copy?

What do you mean? Is it untested copy? No, this works very well in the tradem. Let me take a look at I ran this ad for eight months. Did you put this in? Yeah, we we mailed it in a tear sheet. Oh, a tear sheet mailing too. Was it this size? That size? It's It looked like it was ripped out right at the magazine. The edges of the pages were put through a a table saw. So, they look like they ripped out. And there's a post-it note that was not personalized, but it said, "I thought

you should see this. It's amazing." Jay, was this mailed by Kyle? Kyle Hunter with a post-it note that said, "I thought you should see this. It's amazing." J signed Jay. I can't believe that. 2500 people, six leads. Six people called. Six people out of 2500 minus 71 nixes. I'm wondering if the right people are seeing them. You know what I'm going to say, Sam? You know, I mean, I don't care. What? I don't believe it. You don't believe they are male? I just simply don't believe it. I You know, when something isn't right to me,

I don't believe it. I don't believe 2500 of those are incidentally that wasn't mailed properly but still in all it should do better than that. There's something wrong. It's mailed to the wrong list. It wasn't mailed at all or something. Whenever results don't make sense I don't believe them. Well, if you got 71 Nixie there's probably that's pretty indicative of the fact the mailing went out that some went out. Some went out and you mail it first class. Do you know how clean or dirty that list is? Where'd you get the list from? Database America.

You know, I mailed a list from Database of America that inexplicably didn't work either. Really? Database America? No, it was America business list, wasn't it? The dentist. Yeah. I don't know. That just seems very odd to me. Seems very odd to me. Yeah. Have you tested yourself in any of your campaigns? The ter cold lists? Sure. To the tune of 40, 50, 60 million pieces for lead generation purposes. What would make the difference? Well, Gary, you said I didn't do it right. Now, what did I do wrong? Well, first of all, it has a red

headline. That doesn't Well, no, it's right out of the magazine with on the Red Magazine has a headline. Yeah. I get them. They throw in red headlines because um like in in one of my magazines, I got exposed in red because I don't use the bingo card. So, because I don't use a bingo card, they throw in one color. So, we use the headline as red. And when we've gone to red headlines, it's jumped response. And they don't put the word advertisement at the time. This one, they didn't. They left it out by accident. And

they and you printed the back of the sheet. I mean, we're talking an actual issue. We had it reprinted. I mean, it looked like it came right out of the mag. And the edges were ripped up. I don't know. Folded like this with a post-it note sitting right on top and sent what kind of envelope? Just number 10. The mistake that was made was I told Kyle not to put a return address because when you're doing these, how did you get mixies? Because he did put a return address. So, in this case, it's good to

see that they actually got mailed. But I think when you're sending something that looks like, well, you didn't personalize it either. That's the whole point of the Post-it note. I mean, that actually just completely emasculates it. You know, the idea is that Joe thought you should see this, Gary. I don't know why that wasn't done because the last time he did these chair sheet mailings for us, they were personalized. I mean, and how did they work? I don't have the numbers for it, but I know we made a couple of sales, I think. And you

mail out how many people? Like 3,000. But the reason I'm doing it again because like an idiot, I didn't have my numbers before, which is the exact reason I'm doing this one this time is to find out if it works. I don't know. You know, I I think I want to tell you something that Sam might disagree with me on, but there's something that just lately I have experience makes me adamant about. I don't ever again want to let anybody take my mail to the post office, including my employees. Now, personally, I'm not in the

mail order business now. you know, I'm back to my copywriting business. But when you consider it, you don't think of a stamp as a paper coin, you know, and you guys are all business people. When someone makes a deposit in your bank, you get a receipt, you check it, you double check it, etc. But, you know, we let these third world people with minimum wage starvation incomes haul all this stuff To the post office. And even if the letter shop owner is very honest, it's not treated with the respect that money is. And it is

money. John did a promotion for me that didn't work. He absolutely couldn't believe it didn't work. And two years later, they found all the unmailed letters back in warehouse. So, I mean, seriously, you know, if a letter is worth half a buck, every two letters is worth a dollar. And I think if you're mailing 20,000 letters, you should take them to the post office and you should have that count verified to know they went out. Nothing is more expensive than bad information. Nothing more valuable than good information. And what you have here is questionable information.

It just does not compute to me. Mhm. I had a mailing once where Hanks did it and they never took the bags to the post office. The guy who was supposed to take them just forgot. We didn't find out until about a week after. And you know, there's a real simple thing you can do. Have the mail shop finish the letters and ship them to you. Yes, there will be a shipping charge, but that is not anything compared to him only mailing 80 or 50% of your mail. Have them ship it to you. Mailing houses,

that's how they make their income. Yeah. They hold back 20% of the postage. It's common. Mhm. And there's no way for you to know that. If you get a real low ball vid on something, doesn't sound like that's what they're doing cuz nobody ever checked. How does that piece of copy work in the magazines now? Well, last time I ran it was last month because I had taken it out for a while because I was using my Attack on Bait and switch publicity kit ads and it works. It's always been profitable. How much did it

cost to run the ad? 2001 magazine. Okay. In 2000, how many leads did you get? I don't know. I can't even begin to tell you. I'd all be guessing right now. I without having to I got the figures, but I don't have it in front of me. I don't know. Well, I mean like how many if you had to guess, what would you say? Well, you said my cost per lead in Clean Facts, which cost me 2,000 bucks, is 11 bucks a lead. So, how many leads would I need to get in order to equal

2,000 bucks at $11 each? That's the figure. Let's make it $10 each and cut it in half. 20 20 or 200 leads. Is that right? Mhm. If it cost you $2,000, you'd get 200 leaves at 10 bucks a piece. I don't have an answer to that. Yeah. You know what though? I mean, last time I did this mainly, I don't have the numbers that seem the same way, though. It seemed like they were just freaking dismal results, but we did make a couple sales, but part of this is a couple sales were not through the

mail. And part of them are calling up and telemarketing them and stuff. You know, Tony, I mean, we're talking a lot of work putting into these things. It's not just like we're out sending letters and getting How many carpet cleaners are there in the country? 33,000 approximately. How many of them get the trade magazines? 28,000 in one magazine is a subscription and 24,000 in the other. Okay. But Joe, okay. How many carpet cleaners are there? What's the list you mailed to? The 2500 I mailed to, that was just a list of professional carpet upholstery cleaners

that they compiled out of god knows where. Why would you have mailed to the magazine list? because I wanted to buy a list from these guys. And how many more names are there than they get? What I want to know is how many people subscribe to the trades and how many people there are. I've heard figures between 30,000 to 40,000 professional carpet cleaners. There's tons of people that are janitorial companies that 30 to 50,000 to stay safe. Let's say 30,000 carpet cleaners throughout the country. They're 30,000 that are really their business. And what's the circulation

of the trade magazine? 28,000 for one of them. 24,000. So, it's all of them. Close to. Yeah. Okay. Now, where did this other list come from? I don't know. Well, it couldn't have come from these magazines. Doesn't even make sense, does it? Probably not. Maybe the list is off. Mhm. Then these things begin to scream as companies by secretaries or Yeah, that's how the hell now this is a computer question, but how the hell do I do I get the list and merge them with mine and take out my existing customers? How do I do

that? They have programs where you can do a merge card. Yeah. I just I have my mailing list. They have real sophisticated programs that can So if I send a my disc to customers cuz what I'll do I'll just buy the magazine list. I'll buy the magazine list. And you do a merge purge of people who are So I'll have them do the merge purge. Oh yeah. It's an easy thing. Yeah. The people you got the list from tell you the total universe. I think they got 30 something thousand on their list. I think they

have 31,000. I can't imagine they have every single carpet cleaner in the country on their list. That doesn't make sense. I think they got 30. You get those on mag tape. But my consulting company could probably write a program to do that for you. Yeah. Really? But most direct mail has to have a program that automatically do. I could, but I I don't have the time. Post office is instituting some I think where you've got to match your name against the national movers list from the post office before you can mail a piece because they're

going to start cutting back on returns. What any marketing questions do you have for Gary Car? No, just ask him anything. How would you market a salon service? An inhome personalized salon service. The people could you do you do it in their home? You like you come home and come in this person's home and get to their home and you do. Yeah. I think it' probably be a really big market for that. Do you hate going to salons? I hate you. I mean so easy cut my hair and actually the way I would do that

really is a little lead generating ads for people call. Yeah, I really would. And I'd run them in high income areas. And a lot of times if you run it in a newspaper, you can specify the zip code you want. I would do that money. Uh why do you not like network marketing? I think it's inefficient. I mean, I think if you've got something that people really want to buy, why should you go all the trouble building the downline instead of when you can reach millions of people in a day with conventional methods? One guy

made a fortune off of the XL long distance. That's how they do it. They're a huge company though. That's all network marketing. Friends does them and try to get my sister in and she had me look at the stuff I based out of Chicago. Oh, are they? Okay. So, what's next? So, bestow with more intellect. Oh, master. Oh, I'll tell you something that might be useful for you to know. Let's say that you had a tested direct mail piece. You tested it to 5 or 10,000 names and that you knew that you were going to

be able to roll it out. And let's say that there were 2 million names on the universe that you could mail to, which at an average of 50 cents a letter would cost you a million dollars, which you didn't particularly have on hand. What you could do is you could get all of the million names and you could set it up so you mail 10,000 and as the orders come in, convert the orders to postage and use that to mail 30,000 letters. Use the orders from that to mail 60,000 etc. and literally end up mailing

2 million pieces of mail with no more investment than it cost you to mail 10 or 20,000. Know that you snowball it. A lot of times people think of mailing a list of two million names, they've got to have a million dollars or a million dollar credit line. You really don't. You just snowball that and it snowballs very fast. That's just something to think about. So then you can say, "What's my return on the money?" Well, I spent a million dollar by Well, in actuality, you may have only spent $10,000, you know, and you turn

the 10,000 into a couple million. Do you want me to just talk about things I think you ought to know in general? Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Are you going to do anything on the dustmite promotion? Um, well, my idea for the dustmite promotion is that one of the things that people dislike, especially women, who I would imagine make most carpet cleaning decisions, is the idea of having bacteria and viruses and germs, etc. And I think if you had headlines talking about new study determines Denver area infested with invisible germs and microbes that live in bedroom carpets

or something like that and do a whole story about it, you know, and just give facts which may be normal, but they're unknown. You know, like in every square foot of fabric or carpet there's 2,887 of this and 94 of that, etc., etc. And tell them that they can get a free test kit to see the condition of their carpets and never mention that it's from a carpet. You know, just by calling a free 800 number, you can get a testing kit or a pamphlet to tell how you've got that and use that as leads.

I think sell them leads. Yeah. What if we actually created a test kit or something that we could actually sell people that you could sell to buyers of furniture, I could sell to buyers of carpet cleaning and we do a JV on the freaking thing. What's involved in the test kit for Well, we'd have to create this. Who knows? Is it something you can be a little slob of pH? A little chemical that you put wet and then you wet it with the pH paper so you can uh test the pH level. Well, basically, if

you've got a carpet, you've got them, you know, I mean, you know, you got everybody in America. You just got to have something that once you take a carpet fiber and drop it into it that it changes color and it No matter what. Yeah. No matter what. Well, you could go to Dr. Whitaker's mailing list, which would be prime for that, and give them a free thing and say, "Call 18007 so we'll talk about the new process or what's involved in getting rid of it." You can mail people a square inch of carpet attached to

a letter and have it enclosed in uh some kind of airtight thing. And the reason you're doing it is because of 28 million microbes there. And you know, I didn't want to add any more, but your carpet has even more. That's crazy. But who knows? Actually, a bigger problem is people that have them in their mattresses, in their carpet. That's where they say a lot of the health problems come from. There was a a thing on NBC News where they said they have special bed covers uh for people who have all kinds of allergies. As

soon as they put these covers on the You know what I think really causes cancer, government reports about what causes cancer? Anyway, uh do you ever use tear sheets? Have you ever used tear sheets in a promotion or you just always stick to the the direct? My my payments. Have I ever? Yeah. Yeah. Time after time after time. Just nothing but a tear sheet. No, not a letter along with it. Yeah. The fact tear sheets are mailed without letters. That's the berry trim was Yeah. That's the whole berry trim. I mean, we mailed 30, 40,

50 million of those. Berry trim is what a diet product. Now, Georgetown Press uses it a lot. I'm sure you've seen theirs. They're the ones that do the speaker seminar or the speaker book. They got in trouble with the feds for the post-it notes. They're still mailing them anyway. Well, they didn't get in trouble with the feds. The feds don't like it, but there's nothing illegal about it. Okay. And so, you've done lots of those. So, that's why tens of millions. Tens of millions. That's why the thing here with Joe's not working is such a

mystery. You you know to tens of millions of these things that they work. Well, yeah. But you got to understand that just mailing a tear sheet doesn't make something magically work. There's a lot of elements that make something work. Let's talk about a tear sheet elements that you got to have to make it work. What are the things you look for when you're writing a tear sheet that got to be there? It's no different than anything else. The elements that make it work is number one the list, number two the offer, probably number three the

copy, and number four the presentation or the theater. Mhm. with the tear sheet. Joe's tear sheet. First of all, if I were doing Joe's tear sheet, I would have made it a full newspaper size tear sheet instead of the magazine. And that's in the works. And also, the whole premise of the tear sheet is to put a personalized post-it note on there. That's the whole thing is the idea is you got it from a friend, Joe. Here's something I thought you'd like to see, Gary. And it covered the tar sheet has more urgency than magazine

and and it's more valid to that it's printed on news printed on newsprint. Most of the tar sheets you use in newspaper all of them. All of them newspaper style newspaper and on news print and all of them personalized stock quotes on the back side. Putting news anyways. They're big runs. They got to be big runs to justify. No. What could I expect to reasonably get a test? Do a test. If I wanted to test a newspaper tear sheet, 70 cents a letter. 70 cents a letter. And where am I going to get those printed?

Who am I going to call? You call Kyle Hunter and have him do it. Kyle can do them. Yeah. Okay. And then for a tear sheet for me, say for instance, would I have it like a a J Arab style where you've got testimonials and some stories? And let me teach you something that'll really clarify things for you. Okay, this is the utopian thing that could happen for anybody who's selling something. Let's say that there is a reporter for the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Wall Street Journal or your local newspaper and

for some reason he comes out to your place of visit to do a story and he asks you all kinds of questions about you and he asks you all kinds of questions about your business and he falls in love with you and he falls in love with your business And he returns to the paper and he sits down at his word processor and he writes a glowing article about how wonderful you are, about how wonderful your product is, all the benefits of using it, etc., etc. And almost as a public service, he informs the people

at the end of the article how they can get in touch with you. Now, that is a utopian situation, which is unlikely to happen. So, if you want a guide for writing copy, you be that reporter. You be that reporter and you write that and then you have it set up and make it look as though it were an article that appeared in the paper. Ads that appear to be articles that are article like outperform ads that are obviously ads by a factor of about 5 to one. And so then the utopian scenario would be,

would it not, that someone read that and they knew someone that would be interested, they would rip that ad out on the paper, write on a post-it note, Jim, this sounds great, Gary, stick it on the paper, and hastily hand the address an envelope, and mail it to you. All right? And so since that's not going to happen unless you make it happen, that's the way you should make it happen. make it look like a killer newspaper article and write it from the third person, the reporter's point of view. And when I asked him, he

he was very open, shared his files with me, and I called at random 10 of his customers, and this is what they say. Glowing testimonial one, Glowing testimonial 2, etc., etc. So, now that I've taught you how to think about it, that can supersede a lot of other questions. That's the main thing that you want. One article. One article. The whole page. Do I make the newspaper tear sheet look like there's a number of different articles and then mine flagging the whole the whole thing? The whole thing is about you with photos and Yes. Sometimes

sometimes, you know, sometimes you want to put photos in. Well, it's just that one article on a whole. You seldom see in a newspaper one whole one whole page on just one article. So, I'm I'm struggling to envision because you look at a J. Abraham care sheet. It's all about J. Abraham and it's obviously it doesn't look like somebody ripped out of a newspaper. He said he used the newspaper. He's done them on newsprint, too. Yeah. He done Yeah. And I don't think you should model use Jay Abraham's marketing methods necessarily as a model, even

though they often work and everything. Just do it as I said it. You know, the reporter might put a picture in the article, he might not. If the picture is going to add to the credibility of it, you may want to do that. And I'll tell you something else you can do. I'll give you a really good secret. run that full page ad in the Key West Citizen. Talk with a guy named Randy and mention my name. The Key West Citizen has the advantage of being a very small paper, only 10,000 circulation, but it's known

all over the world. Therefore, you can buy a full page ad in there relatively cheap. Plus, they will print tear sheets extra for you front And back, you know, for a very nominal charge. They'll, you know, I don't know what it is now, 20 or 30 bucks a thousand. Then have your letters go from Key West. And you can say, "George, saw this in the Key West newspaper while on vacation. Thought you'd be interested, Jay." And the ad actually ran. And that makes a lot more sense. Add some validity. Now, now, um, wait a minute.

And you want to do something else? Think about, and I've never done this, but think about it. Think about running in an English language newspaper in a foreign country. Think about sending it from over there. It's theater theater. Now, I should do something like that even though I'm talking to carpet cleaners just to have the advantage of having actually ran. Even though it's not even going to be no one in Key West is going to be at the least. Well, yeah. The point is you're not going to get customers from Key West that's going to

justify the cost of the ad. That's not the point. But it did run. This is an ad that ran in a Key West or you can use a smaller paper or whatever, you know, but I like Key West. You know, Key West gets like four million tourists a year and everybody knows it. And another thing nice thing about it's true. I mean, the ad did run. It just adds something to it. I think I'm very Didn't they get their mailing list by taking driver's license height and weight? Yeah, that that's how they got the that

that promotion worked so well that it just went worked to porkers in general. So what we did is we got came up with a formula and height and weight and you and you have the computer do a calculation from the file of 160 million driver's license kick out all the porkers and even that doubled the money. That was a good promotion. What's the next marketing question? So in lie of having going through and uh writing a utopian article or if I do can you just make up a by line? Yeah, you just make up a

name, right? Sure. Pending. Um, what do you mean? What's that mean? Well, go through the sequence of the importance of an ad. What is the first thing people read when they see an ad or or an article in the newspaper? That's what 80% of it, right? Yeah. The next thing is what if there's a picture of a person on there, the next thing they'll do is go to the picture of the person and then the copy of the picture. Yeah. And then they start scanning the subheads. So, you got to be able to tell your

whole story in the subheads. because they don't read the copy or nothing. You you ought to get a really good tear sheet ad. You ought to have a collection of them and use them as templates to create your own. Do you use templates when you create your advertising or you just have sometimes? Okay. Usually they're my own templates. But you you reference Do you have a swipe file or anything? Is it organized at all or is it just piles of crap throughout your apartment? It's organized now because I I sold a bunch of them. But

if you're asking am I likely to send it to you? Yes, I'd do it as a favor. Will I find it when I go back? God only knows. And one thing Gary does too is for to create headlines. He's got a bunch of headlines on index cards. Yeah. And you just flip through them. And I do that, too. I have hundreds of headlines. Yeah, I do too. I flip through them and those mark ideas on on I want those cards. You know, like Sam says, like 80% of it is the headline. Yeah. The headline. You

know, when when you got a headline that says, "Wife of famous movie star swears under oath her new perfume does not contain an illegal sexual stimulant," you got them. They're going to read it. You know, some other things that you guys ought to pay attention to, and I say this over and over, everybody that does it nearly makes a lot of money because they do it. Put a celebrity in your stuff. Why don't you do that, you know? Okay. Where do we go to get celebrities? One, you can call Don Campy. What's it And you

can call Engles Inc. I don't know the number. Is it I or Eg L or Marty? It's from Marty Engles. I think it's ING. I g L S. He's a comedian. I don't know if you remember. No. And that's in LA. I don't know the number there. Ask for him. Ask for tell them you're interested in putting a celebrity in, you know. And another thing you can do now, I'll tell you something is that's odd that just doesn't seem to make sense, but it does make sense. If you put a sexy picture of a woman

in your advertising, almost no matter what you're selling, it bumps up response. Yeah, we used a model from LA Raven Blue. She was in the uh movie Invasion of the Killer Bimbos. Uh we brought her in for two days, but after one day, we had to take her back to the airport. I have a huge I have a huge meatthead that I hired as a personal trainer. Big I mean, the guy's been on covers of magazines. He's been on Oprah before. Big dude. has no money. I could do plenty of shots and stuff, but this

guy could How would I segue that into my ads? I wouldn't I wouldn't put him in at all. It doesn't relate. Doesn't It's No. Okay. There's nothing I can do with a bodybuilder. Well, I don't know. But local people that live in Arizona though, but he's going national. He needs somebody that's recognized nationally from the love boat. You know, you got to get somebody that you see you recog somebody celebrity. I was just talking like he was talking about grabbers cuz see Dan always contrives these weirdass stories like me sitting on an army tank Joe

declares all out war on bait and switchers the Rolex ad where he's comparing you know a fake Rolex to you know me I'm the real Joe polish you know and Dan comes up with all these really interesting stories and I told Dan he forgot about it and I forgot about it till just now I said what can you come up with as a bodybuilder he's like well let me think of something and I'll come up with something and I was just out of curiosity I wonder what if you would do something with a bodybuilder but

anyway no big deal we can move back on the celebrities bodybuilders You have mass appeal. I was thinking put some muscle in your marketing or some that get away from that cute stuff. That clever stuff. What about show me the money? See, he's talking about going to the dust might thing. The tips you got here about the dust might. That's the powerful button. How about a bodybuilder with the dustmite on his head? Like instead of the bodybuilder's head, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Right. Say this little dust is going to beat this [ __ ] out

of you. He has peaked and we're now in the downhill slust is going to rip your head out. No, you don't want to just do that cute stuff. You know, you remember those campaigns for the burgers. Where's the beef? They didn't make any money. They were cute. The dust might make sense, you know? Right. And a picture of a sexy woman works. Period. So then it makes sense. Oh, so I get again that's mine. A woman says, "Who's sleeping in your bed?" Would you rather sleeping in your bed? Who would you rather sleeping in your

bed? And then we can put a picture of Gary there right in the middle. Most carpet cleaners know how to get rid of dust mites, right? Yeah. It's stain cleaning gets rid. See, people are not allergic to dust mites. They're allergic to the byproducts of the dustmite, the shell and the feces. But the dustmite is the thing that scares the [ __ ] out of everyone cuz they look like little miniature dinosaurs, right? But carpet cleaners when they clean your carpet, they get rid of it to a certain degree. Not totally. Not totally. But they

get rid of the byproducts, the allergens and all that. Yeah. So So that's automatic. There's no big So you're not walking around with your bare feet and dustite feces. I mean, you can do some pretty compelling stuff with copy about that. Well, you know, one of the things that there's I don't know if you knew it, but there was an article about dust mites two days ago. Literally had the same Picture you had. But one of the things they said is that you know there's three household products that people are using a lot now and

it has in effect according to the article in effect it gives the dust mites diarrhea. You're right it's not the dustmite it's dustmite [ __ ] It's the byproduct of it and it's kind of infesting things that'll get rid of uh yeah there's the byproducts for like 6 months or keep them or it'll keep them from uh reproducing the dust might [ __ ] I guess why don't you put it down? It's like powder stuff. Why aren't you signed up with one of these news search services that automatically clips all these articles for you? So,

you got these dust all over the place. Tell me how you should be cataloging these things. Tell me where that's a great idea. News search. Pauling uses one. Ask Paul. Paul. Ask Paul about what are they called? News searches. News info. News searches. Cipping service or the internet I'm sure has thousands. Lexus. I'm telling you, Joe, just have Laura do it. Mhm. Well, I've I'm already into her for probably like 400 bucks already. Yeah. But I mean, you know, I just hired her to get stuff on Gloria Estabbon. That was one of my calls. I

checked. She's got a whole But there's something you guys didn't catch just then. I told you about the article about there's three household compounds that are now Finding that in fact giving the dust mit. What are they? That's not true. But it it would be interesting if it were true, would it not? That's a way of thinking. Okay. Okay. So, you're just saying that to try to get me to I'm trying to get you to think in that kind of story form. Okay. Yeah. You say, "Do the dust mites in your home have diarrhea?" There's

nothing new about dust mites. They live everywhere. But now, because of the new chemicals, almost every household using the dust mites are depositing three times as much feal material as ever before. Bacteria lives and breathes in this feal material. And that's one of the reasons the people in Denver and other major cities are suffering near epidemic proportions of strange flu-l like diseases etc. And it's been proven that one of the most effective ways to get rid of this is to eat red meat and get your carpet cleaned regularly. And the other thing you talk about

is indoor air pollution caused by all the things people drag in from the outside. People will drag in. You know what would be interesting is to have me read one of you guys' ads. Okay. And u Yeah. Read it out loud. Hey, let's, you know, let me put my contacts. We'll have somebody read it out loud. No, no. Well, yeah. Have them read it out loud. Then we'll just interrupt every time it's bad or good or anything. HBAC contractors, read this only if you are not completely happy with your business's sales, profits, and new customer

flow, your take-home keep money, your daily work experience. That headline sucks. That is one of truly, no joke, one of the worst [ __ ] headlines I've ever read. Go from there. Colon subhead. That part's good. That's good. I wrote that part. If there were little known but proven and practical high-profit marketing secrets could transform your business, would you want to know about them or be left out while your competitors benefit from them? Sham, Illinois. My name is Jim Fleck and I'm kind of a marketing guru. But I'm not a starched white collar Harvard MBA

type guy with manicured fingernails. A Mont Blanc pen so sophisticated I can spell horse in seven languages but so dumb I'd buy a cow ride. Okay. That is not even worth critiquing. Do you think it is? No, it's not even worth I don't even want to comment on it. Why? What would be the point of reading that if you don't want to critique? That's real useful. This is real educational. Okay, let's learn about our ads today. Oh, that's so shitty. It's not even real. Let's go to the next hug me up with knowledge here, why

don't you? Okay, let me ask you something. Wait, wait a minute. Wait, hold on a second. What was his headline? What was it about? Well, it wasn't memorable. You don't even know what it said, do you? What did it say? Well, see, you don't know what it said. I'm asking. No, but it's not the point of what were the words. Did you have it memorized? What the [ __ ] did the headline say? You don't know, do you? No, there are no benefits. I mean, you know, that's just Jesus. And the opening paragraph doesn't say,

"What are you going to do for me?" It's pompous. Uh, here's what I am. Here's But they don't give a [ __ ] Nobody gives a [ __ ] about you. Only them. H. Well, you want to hear mine? Sure. Yeah. You want to hear my new exposed dad or my old one that I did the tear? Oh, let's do the tear sheet ad since it didn't work. I want to figure out if your income subhead or what do you call the thing before the headline? The headline. What's that called? Legion. Okay. If your income

is smaller and less consistent than you'd like and you're willing to admit it, I can help. Free report reveals. Headline in quotes. The big money is not in cleaning carpets. It's in marketing carpet cleaning services. And that discovery changed my life. Subhead. My system evolved by going from a $2,100 a month to $12,300 a month with only one band. Now I'm helping thousands skyrocket their earnings. By the original Joe Polish. Say original cuz it's knockoffs, right? Phoenix, Arizona. Here's the dirty little secret about making good money in the carpet cleaning business. It doesn't have a

whole lot to do with how good of a job you do. You can be technically the very best car in your area, use only the highest quality chemicals, know more about stain removal than anybody, and flat out do a super job and still starve To death. Underlined. You're busy one week and lonely the next, and always worrying where your next job is coming from. I know because at one time I nearly starve myself right out of this business by stubbornly believing that being good ought to be good enough. By getting better and better at the

technical aspects, I'd automatically make more money. Wrong. I also nearly went broke copying the ways everybody else seemed to get the customers, wasting money on all kinds of dumb advertising or trying the cheapest price approach in parenthesis, which is actually the worst thing that you could do. End of parenthesis. I survived by begging business from friends, neighbors, and by cold call prospecting and door knockocking, which is about as much fun as a tax audit. Two discoveries changed my life. They might change yours, too. Subhead: How to make more money each week than you now struggle

to earn in your business in your best month. do it easier than you can imagine and even enjoy being in business. The first discovery was that hardly anybody in the carpet cleaning business has any background, education, or savvy in marketing. So, everybody copies everybody else. The blind and dumb leading the blind and dumb, doing everything the hard way. My turnaround started when I turned my back on just about everything I saw everybody else doing in this business and went into an entirely different direction. That direction, by the way, was into what's called direct response marketing.

I sought out some world-class direct response marketing experts, learned their best techniques, brought them to the carpet cleaning business, and had breakthrough results like returns on ad dollars of 4:1, 6:1, and even 10 to1. Like a very simple strategy that delivers 11 or more new customers every single week as predictably as the sun rising or a politician line. Used to say Clinton line, but I got a lot of complaints. Like five changes to make in a yellow page ad that turns it into an unbelievable money machine instead of a Grudgingly defensive expense. That was discovery

number one. The second discovery was a 100% paradigm shift in thinking. I changed from being a carpet cleaner to being in the business of marketing carpet cleaning services. And that's when I went from grossing a pitiful 2100 a month working myself half to death getting it to a 12,300 a month with one van in one big leap. In the subsequent months, I kept making 10,000 to 12,000 a month. And frankly, I did it by being lazy. People now using my system who are willing to work harder are jumping up to bigger incomes. And already successful

larger multi-person companies are instantly increasing revenues and profits by 50% to 100%. When you learn and implement a true marketing system like mine, your phone rings predictably every single day with really good desirable new customers. That was big big bold. I should have mentioned that. I have now invested a lot of time and money to test prove and fine-tune an entire collection of advertising, marketing and profit improvements and referral stimulation strategies. If you get your hands on them, you're instantly light years ahead of all your competitors. Many of my strategies are poor boy marketing because

that's what I was. So, I'm not asking you to spend a lot of dough. Most of my strategies are simple because I'm no rocket scientist. Most can be put to use easily and quickly. And here are a few of the biggest benefits you'll get from my system. One, how to cut the waste out of your advertising. Two, how to target certain types of desirable customers and get them to call you. For example, how to attract upper middle class homeowners to call you. Three, how to escape price competition and avoid the cheapest price battle altogether. Four,

what secret ingredients to add to your advertising, any advertising, door hangers, Valpack coupons, penny saver, even dirt cheap direct mail postcards That cause a flood of people to call you. Five, how to double response to yellow page ads without getting a bigger ad. Six, how to dramatically increase referrals. Seven, how to target and get high-profit jobs and customers most carpet cleaners do not understand, are afraid of, and never go after, so you have no competition. Eight, never cold call again. Set up a true system that brings new customers to you every day like clockwork. Nine.

How to make the breakthrough paradigm lifealtering shift from carpet cleaner to professional marketer of carpet cleaning services and multiply at least 10 times your personal take-home income. The in bold the decision you need to make now. The incredible promise that I'll make you. Are you happy with business as usual? Things as they are. If so, ignore what I'm about to say and the offer I'm about to make you. If you are somewhat frustrated, then you need to choose what kind of a business you want to be in. One that's really just a job, a drag

that you have to force yourself out of bed in the morning to do, or an exciting, highly profitable, rewarding business that you can't wait to get at every day. If you are open-minded toward and ready for transformational change, then I have a remarkable guaranteed free offer for you. How can a free offer be guaranteed? First, at your request, with no obligation, I will rush you a copy of my newest, updated, very provocative free report. What 99% of all carpet cleaners don't know and will never find out about marketing secrets of 100,000 plus yearly income. You

can get this report simply by calling my free recorded message at 1800 blah blah blah, anytime, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week in parenthesis. You won't have to talk to any pushy salesperson either, just my robot. Second, if you get this report, read it and honestly can say that reading it was a waste of your time. Write and tell me and I'll send you 10 bucks or I'll send you 20 bucks to your favorite charity. It's your choice. I guarantee that reading this report will not waste your time. Yes, it takes some pretty

big coonus to make that kind of an offer to tens of thousands of people that could bankrupt me. But I know from experience it won't because of the reactions from the carpet cleaners who've gotten my previous reports. Wait until you see what they have to say. I now command as much as $15,000 a day incredible in consulting and teaching marketing workshops to selected groups of carpet cleaners. But you don't have to Andy out to even a plug nickel to get a good look at my system. Just call and get my free report. Still, a whole

lot of folks will read this and won't call. Why? Stubbornness, laziness, apathy, skepticism, resistance to change. Consider this. Keep doing what you've always been doing, and you certainly keep getting only what you've been getting. In fact, the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again, but hoping for different results. Well, it's up to you. Joe Polish signed the original. P.S., It doesn't matter whether you're a little guy dragging one machine around in the trunk of your car, a one van operation, or a goodsized company. I've helped mom and popers as much

as triple their incomes in a couple of months. I've also worked with big companies to dramatically improve profits. My system is valuable even if you are a franchise. It works anywhere, anytime for anybody, period proven. And I'll send proof of my free report. PPS. Okay. When I started using these these strategies, I was barely grossing 2,000 a month. Some weeks I was starving. I was making it by running up credit cards and juggling one against the other. And the business I Was getting, I was getting ugly by cold calling, begging, occasionally getting a referral. And

I hated what I was doing. I almost quit every day. These secrets quadrupled quantum leads me to a 12,300 a month single van business. Why not investigate what all this can do for you? Just call blah blah blah. Don't procrastinate though because I'm not going to keep this free offer open forever. You got a lot of stuff in there, I think, to make the headline more powerful. Yeah, right. There's tons of stuff in there. True. Okay. World's greatest copyright. What's the headline? You're saying the income went from 2,000 to 12,000. That's the subhead. Okay. But

the headline is the big money. Okay. But what do carpet cleaners care about when they're running their own business? Money. Okay. So, you went you went from 2,000 to 12,000 in the same van. Yeah. Right. Two 2,00 2100 to 12,300 is the thing I'm saying. Without buying uh another van. Correct. Okay. And how about the amount of effort they had to put out to go from the 2,000 to the 12,000? I mean, I worked my butt off, but you know. Well, you don't have to say that. But I've always worked my butt off. You've been

doing this. But did you work your butt off to 2,000 a month? Yeah. As much as 12,000 a month. No. No. But the marketing that I was doing was about 10 times harder to get business. See, when I did actually implement systems, which is true. See, like most people that go into the information marketing business don't do any of this stuff. I'm actually a really I'm a product of my own marketing. I I was not using I didn't have any systems. All my business was acquired through, you know, personal selling. And once I learned how

to, you know, use free recorded messages and educational consumer awareness guides and stuff, it really helped build business. It really got me bigger jobs instead of small jobs. And you know, so all that's true, right? Gary's the Mr. headline prints of print. But I I would say my carpet cleaning income went from 2,000 to 12,000 a month using the same van with hardly any effort at all. You know, something like that. And then the lead in the amazing thing is I'm not working as hard or something like that, right? Cuz that that's what they they

want to make more money, but they don't want to work as hard to get it. They want to do it as easy as possible. So, I think the headline in that really doesn't lead into the story as well as the one you've got in there now. So, you've got it buried in the subhead. Okay. I'm sure Gary doesn't agree with that. Well, I don't disagree with it. I I think the headline should probably be the amazing money-making secret of a desperate man who almost lost his carpet cleaning service, right? Or something. Okay. The amazing money

making secret or something like that. See, that rolls off your lips like it's just nothing. Yeah. And he expects us to go back and do it. But that is, you know, that is a headline right there. That was just It's unbelievable. A desperate man who almost what? Lost his carpet cleaning business or lazy man was I like desperate cuz I desperate. Yeah. who almost went broke until he found an amazing secret that tripled his income overnight using the same and somewhere and the lead in headline should be now at last you can use it too

and then the headline below the headline what do we call those prehead quote dot dot dot head the amazing thing of course is how fast the money rolls in dot dot dot unquote well the amazing thing is how fast the money rolls in. The amazing thing, of course, is how fast this secret makes the money come in. Dot dot dot dot dot dot end quote. Now, let me give you a general copywriting tip. Mhm. Try and write your copy without adjectives and above all try and write it without not only not don't use cute stuff

but don't use stuff like faster Than a politician can lie that calls notice to your verbiage and that's not what you want to do. The best advertising messages the writing is actually unnoticed. what the people remember is the message and that is written with a lot of cliches and with a lot of analogies and stuff like that that are sort of clever and you don't want to be I thought you like cliches sometimes I do but I don't like them this way they're really obvious not in that context not not like this so you don't

want your cliches to be obvious cliches yeah but just forget about don't get into worrying about cliches you know what you want to do is write straightforward word benefit laden sincere copy. But this ad is not a terrible ad. It's just sort of an okay ad. I I mean it's what you guys need is better advertising. I I mean really better strategized and better. Now that's not all that bad, but that No, the the classic analogy is a dollar bill and a $100 bill are the exact same size printed on the same piece of paper,

but one's worth a hundred times more than the other. That's what it boils down to. So, how would he strategize? You know, what would he do to try to strategize this better, make it more effective? What what questions should he be asking? What should he be looking at? Well, there's a lot of good stuff in that ad. But, see, that's what somebody like Sam and I or John would consider the information that we're going to use from crafting to craft the ad. You know what? This is like what I call the fodder, you know, and

it's sort of thrown at the page. You got to make it easier to read. There's It gets too intertwined and too complicated. Yeah. This is all convoluted. And I'll tell you something else, too. You tell them too much about what it is to you put the people to work. It's about direct marketing. It's about this. These should be blind ads, these lead generators. And then I discovered this amazing secret once I started using and make it mysterious all the way down so that they wanted say after I discovered this amazing secret here's what happened cuz

you got a lot of people say this this guy's talking about direct mail or direct response I don't want to do that maybe tell that too soon yeah it tell it shouldn't tell it at all at this point right but it should tell the end result after yeah tell the end result here's what happened bullet bullet bullet bullet bullet yeah you know it's like when I I was in Bulgaria and you know I was shopping and I went off the main drag and I this little store. It was hard to even tell it was opening

because a woman was dimly lit and I went in there and I was traveling uh with a girlfriend and our relationship's history now but I remember she was always looking for ways to look younger and you know she was 45 years old and we were talking to this woman in there and she was she was astonishing. She was like a teenager. We Got to talking to her. We couldn't believe she was 59 and my girlfriend said, "How do you happen?" And she and she picked up this thing and and put on my girlfriend's and I

mean I couldn't believe it. I just made that story up. But do you see what I'm doing there? You know, it's you ever see feather spring with the secret of Hamburg, you know, or uh you know, but I walked in this store in Hamburg, etc. Or um you know, I was just about to throw away the I was in the carpet cleaning business. I was doing this and and that. This program continues with tapes. [Applause] [Music] I happened, believe it or not, that the museum of of natural art and uh he was a guy. He

was an older guy, had a white beard and we were, you know, we were walking through looking, we started talking and we ended up having a cup of coffee and the guy was, you know, relatively affluent. He, you know, he drove away in his Rolls-Royce and, you know, I go to the museum every time. The second time I saw him that we got talking, I said, "What are you doing?" He says, "Well, I'm retired." He said, "I used to be in the carpet cleaning business." I said, "You were in a carpet cleaning business? You own

a Rolls-Royce?" And he says, "Yeah." How the hell did you do that? And he says, "I'm in the carpet cleaning business." He says, "Well, I discovered a simple little secret. Actually, I learned it in Czechoslovakia, believe it or not. When I brought it over here, nobody else in America was doing it, and it told my whole life, Ron." And he said, "Well, you said, "Well, is it expensive?" No. Well, he said, "No, there's nothing to it. Why don't other people?" I said, "I don't know. I just never thought of it. Will you tell me what

it is? After we got to be friends, the guy told me what it was and I got so excited I couldn't even finish the meal. I just literally ran away from the table. I thought, "This is too good to be true. It is just too simple. This can't be real." But I decided to give it a test. It was only going to cost me $15. And I did it. And you know, 3 days later, three people called me. The day after that, seven more people called me. Within a month, I was getting an average of

56 calls a day and had to stop doing what this guy did. Do you see what I'm doing? Keep going. Your ad's not doing that. Desire. Your ad's not doing it. What about that whole emotional aspect of, you know, that emotional pull of what he's doing? One of the things that you cannot overdo is passion. Real genuine passion. You'll notice if I talk to you guys, I mean, I hope you notice I'm really trying to help you to the point where I'm not being political correct. I will bludgeon you to get it cuz I know

what I'm saying has enormous value to you. And you notice I will stand on your chest and you know metaphorically just smash you in the head till you get these certain things because they're important. And the paragraphs are too long too. Yeah. Does it look Yeah. upside down. You know, it's it's also the ads don't have eye relief. They look tedious. You put the reader to work. It's got to look like you look at it and you slide down through it. You know what John called the greased uh what do he call the greased shoot.

The greased shoot. It gets you in there and you just can't stop. And the story you were telling, it's like you how can you stop? How can you bail out of that? How can you bail out? How can you bail out of there? What's this guy going to say next? What's he going to do next? How did he get the Rolls-Royce? What is he going to say to me at dinner? You know, what happened when I went out and tried this thing? I mean, it's just like what? You know, you got to keep reading. Exactly.

So, you wouldn't actually go through all the specific strategies that he's teaching them. He would just talk about the end result. And I would talk about the end results. You know, there's nothing that makes people respond more than curiosity. That's why I don't use teaser copy on envelopes. You know, the number one reason people will open an envelope they get in the mail to find out what's inside. And if you put teaser copy on the outside, they know, at least in a general way, what is inside. You know, if it says half price off on

Time Life magazine, you generally know what it says. I never like to let them know. And what you want is people just dying to know what this is. And you're sort of telling them. And also you're telling them in a way that puts them to work cuz the purpose of that ad is not to sell the product. The purpose to get the call that's dead on the guy who sold more cars than anybody else. Everybody thinks he's a fool. Cal Worththington in California with his dog spot that's a giraffe or a lion or whatever. He

sells more cars at more profit per car than any other dealer in the world. and he said, "The only purpose of my advertising is to get someone who wants To buy a car standing in front of someone who wants to sell a car. All you want is a carpet cleaner to dial that number. That's all you want." Okay. Then, Gary, what would be the difference in running a like I said before, like it's like that tugboat theory I have. You know, a tugboat goes out and the ocean liner is in trouble and the waves are

20 feet high. He's got to connect this big steel cable. The cable's too heavy to get across over there. So they shoot like a nylon line. They put that on a winch that connects to a bigger line which is a bigger and pretty soon they've got this big thick cable that saves the ocean liner. See, you're shooting a pretty thick line there already. If your copy read like I just did and tell that story, if you were in the carpeting cleaner business, you couldn't wait to get to the phone. You got to know what that

is. You sort of told them you're giving out too much information. Yeah. But this is we know we know that the purpose of these lead generation ads have one call to get a pick and we get carried away too much into our proud what's going to happen to them after. Like you said my yellow page advertising instead of saying doubled you say my yellow paging advertising my response went up 247% and the ad stayed the same size instead of saying doubled. Be more specific in there. Those kind of things. But you're saying in there, here's

what you're gonna learn when you get my system. What you have to say is here's what happened to me. That's a very important point. [ __ ] that. Learn. Nobody wants to learn. Nobody want You're telling them here's what you're going to learn. This is what you're going to get. This is what you're going to get. This is what happened to me. Don't tell them they have to learn it. Just tell them what they're going to get. Nobody wants to learn anything. No. No. They don't want to learn. Well, I tell people that all day

long. What? They always use the word discover instead of learn. Well, you got it loaded in the attic. here's what you're going to learn or this is what you're going to have to work at before it happens. It's a lot easier to be critical of somebody else than it is to see it in your own, you know, I mean, don't you think it should still be copy intensive or I mean, sure it has to be. But his story was copy intensive. Do you hear the story? That's half of it right there. Then you keep going.

You know, the only way that I could ever construct it well without like spending months to construct like a good story like that. You've got the story. You take it back and have it. I'm saying is to have like to put the go go go along with the whole thing because you know it's it's it's easy for him to regurgitate that stuff cuz that's what he's known for. Well, when you talk to somebody on the phone, what do you tell them? What steps do you go through? You have any set pattern or you just wing

it when it should just take it and then listen to it and the ones that worked out the best And the ones you got most respons what about your ad? What about my ad? Yeah, let's hear it. No, I mean it's it's great information story. I'm glad I Let's see now if I get way too much. Let's take it to the top and see if I get back up. You ready? Yes. Grand Rapids agent discovers a simple secret of earning $349,476 working only 40 hours a week. That's right. A 40hour normal work week. I'm home

most evenings and on weekends with my family just like a normal dad. Whoever made this stupid law that says you have to work 60 hours a week to succeed in real estate. Now you can earn the respect and income you deserve while still enjoying life to the fullest. My free report reveals how you can use the gold rush effect to position yourself as the real estate expert in any niche market you select. Grand Rapids, Michigan. Keep reading to find out how I went from dead broke to a consistent six-figure income for the past 12 years

and why I now have no choice but to reveal it to you. If you're really serious about learning the truth about making a six-figure income in the real estate business without selling or prospecting, then this will be the most important article you've ever read. My name is Terry Hunterfeld. I'm not a professional sales trainer or seller of how-to systems. I'm a realtor out there every day just like you trying to earn a living in the real estate business. But there is a big difference between you and me. I have an average of 247 calls per

week coming into my system automatically. Let me explain to you how this all happened. My first 10 years in the real estate business were a constant struggle for survival. Day after day, I came into the office to face the bone-numbing humiliation of calling Hundreds of people who didn't want to talk to me in the hopes of finding a few who did. After enduring year after year of grinding rejection, I found myself at the brink of despair, burned out. Keep your chin up, my sales trainer said. People aren't rejecting you personally. Just shake it off. Yeah,

shake it off. As if somehow I could forget being hung up on, cursed at, and being treated like I had the plague. I got into real estate because I wanted to help people, not to pester them for business. I couldn't sell. I hated selling. What tore me apart was being forced to use manipulative selling tactics to get listings or make sales. I bought dozens of tapes and books by famous real estate sales trainers, but they only taught selling. No matter how much I roleplayed objection handling techniques. When I got in front of a real life

prospect, I choke up and freeze. I just couldn't do it. God, how I hated selling. I found myself dead broke. I tried everything I could think of to attract new clients without selling, but nothing worked. I was barely hanging on. The stress of not knowing when I'd received my next commission check was becoming unbearable. I was drowning under a sea of bills. Then the newspaper refused to extend me any more credit to advertise my listings. Court officers served papers on my broker preventing me from getting paid on the few closings I did have. I was

forced to file bankruptcy and my wife of only 6 months had no idea of how deeply I was in debt when we married. I was ashamed and embarrassed because now she was pregnant with our first child and I was a financial failure. On one hand, I felt like finding a bridge and jumping. On the other hand, I wanted desperately to prove to Anne and myself that I really could do it to get money coming. And I was forced to take a part-time job helping manage real estate rental property. Then I discovered the Gold Rush system.

It all began one morning when my property management boss showed me his system to attract what he called a rush of inquiries for his rental business. It left me speechless. It was As if he'd removed a blindfold from my eyes after months of groping in the darkness. I was exhilarated, so excited I couldn't sleep at night. I realized I'd stumbled across an ingenious one-of-akind marketing method quite by accident. one that could be applied directly to attracting streams of real estate clients. I prayed that I'd found that one secret, that one missing link to success in

real estate without the struggle of cold prospecting. There was only one way to find out. Try the system in my real estate business. The Gold Rush system produced $7,928.32 in just the first month. The results were almost unbelievable. And just 4 days, the system had produced a sale. Only 12 days later, I collected a commission check of $2,841. The system then went on to produce three more sales that first month for a total of $7,928.32 in commissions. But here's the best part. All this cost me only $76 in advertising which I sheepishly had to borrow

from an four more sales resulting in commissions of $9,561.31. The following month was even better yet. Five sales resulting in $12,324.75 in commissions. And all this cost me under $100 in a month for ads. And I didn't have to borrow the money from Ann anymore. And here's what was so amazing. My system delivered all the sales automatically. No selling, no objection handling, no prospecting, no cold calling, no rejection. And these were commissions I never would have received without the system creating them all for me. I was ecstatic. Was this really happening to me? Had I

struck the bubbling crude, or was I just a fluke? People who knew me couldn't believe anyone could go from such an absolute failure to astounding success literally overnight. No, it wasn't just luck. I Continued to duplicate these remarkable results simply and quickly. anytime I wanted. My system creates a huge rush of business every time I use it. It reminded Ann of the uproar that the discovery of gold created in California back in the 1800s. So, she coined it the gold rush system. Thanks to Gold Rush, I now spend a lot of my time with my

family doing things I truly enjoy instead of prospecting. My system automatically motivates a steady stream of qualified, ready to act buyers and sellers to want to do business with me and only me. Now, I'm sharing Gold Rush with you. For years, I was able to keep what I was doing totally to myself. Anne always told me I was too selfish, but I do value my privacy. Despite my efforts to keep the system under wraps, the word of my success eventually started leaking out. Just recently, articles were written about me in many national and trade magazines.

Hundreds of agents requested information. They wanted to know the secret and begged me to teach my system to real estate agents who wanted to learn it. I was really hesitant to do this, but Anne pointed out that I really owe it to my profession to help other agents and the misery of finding sincere clients. I finally agreed, although we compromised. I would only share my secrets with agents outside of the Grand Rapids, Michigan area. The beauty of all this is that the Gold Rush system gives me the time to help you. Even though I'm still

actively selling real estate every day, I'll sell a ton of homes again this year with zero prospecting whether or not you get involved in the Gold Rush system. I've written a free report for you revealing how my Gold Rush system will help you double your income. Bullet one. Helping you double your income by giving you more clients in a week than you now get in two months. Bullet. Sell your listings for you in as little as one day. Bullet. show you how to end forever The rejection, misery, humiliation, embarrassment of traditional selling based prospecting. Bullet

enable you to spend your time only with sincere buyers and sellers who want to take action now. Bullet give you the one thing money can't buy time. Bullet reveal why if you keep trying to attract customers the same old way that you have been, you'll be broke, frustrated, depressed, and miserable. But once you discover the secret of automatically marketing your services and positioning yourself as the expert, streams of ready to act clients will call and ask you to help them. Paragraph. If you're like me and want to spend more time with your family or just

take time for yourself, but want to build a professional career, you'll love my gold rush system. If you're really ambitious, I shudder to think of how fast you'll be recognized as the number one agent in your area. I'm keeping my promise to Ann by letting you have this report for free. It explains everything you need to know in great detail with proof of everything I've told you and how to get your own system up and running. Just call toll-free 1800 8678304 anytime, 24 hours a day. You'll hear a recorded message and I'll mail you the

report. The call is free. elves a special report. So don't procrastinate. Call now. It's a great question. That's a good idea. Now, let me ask you something. Who uh Joe, who wrote your Dan Kennedy, who wrote your I did. Okay. There's the difference. Who wrote your Dan? That's a great end. That That's exactly what I just said to do. Like you're reading a novel. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know if I got too Ied about it. And Terry rewrite your That's what you should do. Rewrite his ad. That's a great ad. Read the headline one more

time. Look, I'm sick of this great ad [ __ ] Grand Rapids agent discovers the simple secret of earning $349,476 working only 40 hours a week. Let me see. That's that's a great piece of work. Mhm. Yeah, it is. Everybody's like a story. Let me show you a couple things. What you need is more ads as good as this. No matter how good the ad is, it will wear out. Starting to wear out. But that's a good ad. Now, something you can do to make this ad better is that is difficult to read, right? Yes.

Okay. So, now you notice that these are all justified. Justified means they're all flush left. You don't want that. Like my paragraphs are I got my paragraphs indented. You mean the headline, but not my headline? Did you do it that way to model what the publication does for their headlines? I may have. Sometimes the publications don't. But you see, you want to do it upper and lower case like this. And then you don't want it all flush left. And this is blocked, you know, sort of. It looks like kind of an official document, but maybe

you want something like this and then over here. And then make your subhead separate the paragraphs, you know, like. And then the the subhead should be like this. Notice how he's got shorter paragraphs in there, too. Easier to read. Yours is like I'll just knock his ad off. That'll be fine. Okay. This ad was months. I mean, just talk about over over over and over. This is the hardest work I've ever done in my life. Bleeding. Bleeding. Literally bleeding. I mean, hours on a paragraph and rewriting it and rewriting it and rewriting. Oh, over and

over and over until it just flowed. Yeah, it very well. Hardest work I've ever done. It's like a story. You know what, T? Okay. It's very See what I'm doing here? It's very nice. So, my these are the subheads. You got you got this centered, not not left aligned even with you got too much. You got too much. Let me tell you what I I I think Sam would agree to do this. If he gives you a disc, would you format that for him? Yeah, send him a disc with all that stuff and he'll send

it back to you the way it's supposed to look. Take about 20 minutes. Uh, you got too much crap right here, too. Yeah. That's all there's too much. It's well make it real easy to get. But you see what I'm doing here with these are all subheads. See, if you look at your ad, notice if you look at your ad, you can't tell anything. What Sam said, if you had the subheads, they would make you want to read it more. But that's a good job. On your laptop here, Terry? No, just give Sam a disc.

Yeah. Uh, use Did you do that? Microsoft. Yeah, I can convert it to port. Do you work in pagemaker or what? What do you work in? I've got both, but I work in port. What would be most convenient for you? I can convert Word into Quirk. Okay. I'll just reload. That's fast and easy for you to do. Otherwise, I can get it to you. I can get it converted first and get it over to you in court. Why don't I get to you? Just put it No, put it in. It'll just give me one stream

of copy and then if I can break it out. But send me Send me a copy of that, too. So, yeah. Okay. Well, thank you. Yeah. And one thing you might want to do also, you might want to make that a two-page ad. These guys would do better with multi- pages. Yeah, you could spread that out. Well, in order for Sam to do it, lead in above the headline, too. You got in order for Sam to do it, you're going to have to send it on a Macintosh, right? No, it doesn't matter. Okay. I can

cross read now, can't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'll cross read. And since you're showing a glimmer of not being completely brain dead, I'll now answer your question about what to do with all the guys. Okay. What you want to do is what we call the damaged set theory. And the damaged set was invented, I think, by Robert Collier. And he'd sell these people these sets of books. and you know he pitch them and pitch them and then after they wouldn't buy. Then he writes a letter and tells about they just got a new shipment

of books and they're perfect in every respect. They reveal all the information but the back covers are ragged and binding and torn. So he offers an incredible discount. One of the things Sam does is he says in a mattress sale, he can't sell the mattresses at full retail because the labels were sewn on back and then he gets the manufacturer to sew the labels on back. Uhhuh. Or like or like Carlton having to sell the video where he gets the guy come with the faulty labels and black them out and and and you know what

your tape duplicator made a mistake and the tapes have got all the information on but the labels are whatever it's just think of it as the damage set content. That's a good piece of work. What kind of discounts do you offer that work for that? Well, you know, nothing will work like a half price sale. I mean, it'll just not 50% half price. Half price. It'll just suck the money right out of them, right? That is just genius. That is genius. What is genius? Suck the price out of them. Half price sale sucks the money

out of them. How can you not? You know, how come all of a sudden you're you were thinking you were on the fence at $7.97 and all of a sudden now you can get it for $3.97 and you've only got 17 of these and it's first come first serve. Yeah. Right. And then when they call sold out and I'll have some in a month. Don't be calling Don't be calling me in a month and begging for it because they'll be gone. And you can do that with the prospects that have been sitting on the fence

for the last two. So hold on. When you do the damage set sale, should you include like a same real long form sales letter, same report, or should it be the same report with a different cover letter or a completely different name? Oh, the sales. I don't know. I see what you did there. Now, now let me tell you the bad part. You want to keep your business up, you got to do it again. And guess what? You got to do it again and again and again and again. Y John Carlton took this little market,

which could be your market. He wrote the first ad. It was well actually he didn't write the first one but you know he took it over from there had an ad as good as yours there and then he wrote another one and another one and another one there up to 20ome ads to the same Market. If I were helping you now what I would be doing is we say okay we've just about exhausted this story now we got to come up with another story you know. Mhm. And it might be a story about how somebody

met you, you know, or what happened. I've got I've got those guys. How someone met a story about somebody that I can write I can now I'll write the story about somebody else either in the first person or the third person. One either way. And see, but the thing is what you can't do is you can't stop. Can't stop. You can't stop. But I've got these guys. I've got a guy out there right now who was dying. He's already got real estate. He's in Florida and he was just about he was burned out. You bought

made $29,000 in the first 60 days. Well, tell his story. Tell his story. Now, should I tell the third person or the first person? Should I be Paul telling my story? Should be Terry telling the story about Paul. Well, no, it should be him telling the story. Paul, this is this is where I was and this is what I did. And I read Terry's ad and I thought, "Oh my god." You know, but something spoke to me in the ad and I thought about it and I went home and I talked to my wife and

I said no. But then I thought about a little bit more. So, I called the 800 number blah blah blah blah blah and I went from flat broke to 29. Finally, finally my my wife said, she said, "John, what have you got to lose? Even the phone call's free." You know, remember Charles Atlas says, "What the hell? I'll gamble a stamp." You Know, and so now you don't even What have you got to lose? Even the phone call's free. So I called the number and I got the report and that was and what you got

to do, you got to have that kind of advertising over and over and over. You got to have follow-ups that are different. It's work, but that's the work that pays off. See, your numbers are better than anybody else's in the room. Are they not? That's because he's When I was in the beginning of my market, my numbers were like his, too. Do you got your ad? I don't have the ad that the one that not the one which was my control for like two years, which I don't have that one because that's that one eventually

stopped pulling as well. Obviously, I'm surprised. You got some ads you can read. Yeah, I do have I have parts of two ads I would like to read. I don't have to read them all because I already know what's wrong with Oh, wait a minute. Let's hear. Let me make one observation before you read these ads. Sometimes the game is just over. Like if you were selling to buggy whip manufacturers and they invented the car, it's over. You know, and a lot of people go broke because they don't want it to be over. Now, I'm

telling you with RV dealers, when you got a bad economy, RV dealers are going down. I know about that. And that's just it. It's over. I'm not saying it is, but it could be. And if it's over, it's over. You know, that's what it is. And you got to accept that. There may come a time when it doesn't matter what you write to a certain group of individuals, it's over. And you need to know that. You know, you know, I get pissed off when everybody supports the plight of the American farmer. You know, basically there's

no need for all these farms anymore. They don't want that to be true. People who manufactured buggies didn't want that to be true either. But it's true. It's like the railroads. They failed to realize they were in the transportation business. Yeah. It's and a lot of them pay because they didn't get in there. All right, Pamela, let's hear this insane dribble you've been passing off this market. All right, you part of two caps. Let's do the headlines. Okay, first line. How a $7 investment can boost your commissions by as much as $60,000. Wait, listen to

Sam. It's starting off pretty good. What is it? Do it again. How a $7 investment can boost your commissions by as much as $60,000. Okay. Pamel Ellen's newsletter, the power prospecting success letter, is packed with powerful prospecting and marketing strategies for insurance and financial services professionals that produce exceptional profits. For example, quote, "One of your ideas got me 50 referrals from one attorney in one session, and it was unbelievably easy to do. I also personalized your pre-approach referral letter, and I'm now getting appointments with 85% of my Referrals." Then I've got his name and address.

quote, "I made one change in a marking letter based on your ideas. It has made a dramatic difference and helped me open a case that is about to net me $60,000 in commissions. Worth every single penny. I now have more appointments with terrific qualified prospects than ever before. Also, using some of your suggested referral language, I'm able to obtain an average of three to five referrals on the initial appointment. Your ideas have enabled me to meet extremely well-qualified, wealthy prospects on a very favorable basis. I wrote 116 lives and $82,000 premium my first year. I

bet I could have doubled my production if I'd had your help from the start. It works. This is great information for first year agents and probably even better for older agents. I've been in the business for 10 years and I've just recently enrolled in your program. Okay. Go past. Okay. Then I go, you could be using the insider secrets found only in the success letter to enjoy similar games. Here are just a few of the cutting ed money-making strategies covered in recent issues. And now, of course, I probably made the mistake here of giving specific.

Go ahead. Okay. Four secrets that will turbocharge any marketing strategy. No. See, that's a good bullet. That's a blind bullet. You don't know what that is. That isn't four secrets that will make your direct mail or blah blah blah. That's a blind bullet. That I like blind bullets. Okay. How to get appointments with at least 70% of the people you talk to. Yeah, it's great. How to create a moral obligation for your clients to enthusiastically refer you to their closest friends and associates. How to blast through call reluctance. How to leverage your best clients and

contacts to target market the lazy person's way. This is good stuff. How to create a pre-approach letter that results in a 50% or more appointment ratio even with cold leads. The four magic questions top producers use to get showered with referrals. powerful communication strategies that guarantee appointments with friends and acquaintances, plus much, much more. To get a six-month trial subscription to the Power Prospecting Success Letter for just $7 to cover postage and handling, fill out the coupon and rush it along with your check to blah blah. Send today to start boosting your commissions. And we've

got a free trial certificate. Okay, let me tell you what to do. You've got some great stuff in there, and you've done it about 80% right. Now, let's make it all the way right. Okay, now I'm going to tell you something. And this has been tested. You can use the word book, report, folio, white paper, but nothing is better than the word book. So this I want you to be your new headline. New book reveals. And then what's your headline say? How a $7 investment can boost your commissions by as much as $60,000. Okay. And

just put new book reveals. And I'm going to change your headline a little bit. do both of them, but then put new book reveals 37 little known ways to earn higher real estate commissions. Now, I'm going to teach you all something. If you want to learn, want to write an ad, you got to do it instantly. You don't have any time to be creative. Here's something that works very well, and we'll just do it word for word. Black and White Press of Denver, Colorado, has just published a new book that teaches real estate agents or

whatever it is how to triple their commission income. Period. This book is amazing. Here is some of the secrets it reveals. Colon. All the rest of the ad is bullets. Nothing else. And then at the end now put if you'd like to have a copy of this book, it's easy to order. All you have to do is write your name and address and the words new real estate book on a piece of paper and send it with your check of only $7 to cover such and such. Don't make it a newsletter. Don't make it a

report. Make it a book. Don't put free up in the headline. You know, get these people reading. Now, there's people who make fortunes with just that's all their ads are is bullets. Like FCA is one of my subscribers. You know that guy up in Georgia that does the health books and it's all he does is you know FCA publishers just released the new book That reveals 112 unusual ways to save your health without going to a doctor. Here are some of the amazing secrets found in this book. Bullet bullet bullet bullet bullet. It's easy to

order. Yuck. That's it. So the book then is actually my special. Could it be my special report? Yeah. You should give them information in the book, but also it should make them want more. Deliver with the book, but deliver in a way that makes them hungry for more information. You know, tell them how they can do it, but then as a convenient say, but if you don't want to spend all this time doing it, I mean, I don't pitch much for copywriting jobs, but when I was like, if I'm before a group, I'll like I

told you yesterday, I'll tell them everything about writing copy and I'll tell them the whole thing. And I and I'll say or if you want, you know, basically I'll do it for you. Usually somebody will ask. And so you do the same thing. And you with your book, the book is what puts them to work. Do you get the difference? That's what puts them to work. But if you don't want to do all that, I'll send this collection of sales letters and ads and all you got to do is fill in your name, right, with

your company, etc. And you did it for them. So what you get is you get a group of people that want to learn about it. And then out of that group, you want people say, "Screw it. I don't want to learn about Just do it for me. You do it for me, which is about one out of 10, right? So, I wouldn't even give them a trial subs any No, you you you don't want to be in the newsletter business. That's not your business. Well, that's my business. You know, you don't want to be in

the newsletter business. Okay. Here's my reasons for being in the newsletter business because it allows me to get paid to communicate every month with my customers and have them and sell stuff sell a lot of [ __ ] to them while I do that. Actually, that's not accurate. It cost you more than $7 to capture that lead. You send these newsletters. Do it this way. You'll get more leads. Eliminate the newsletter. Well, currently giving the newsletter to my members anyway. They're getting it. But don't feature that in the ad. Make it a book. Look, newsletters

are the hardest type of information to sell. Only the hardest core of the hardcore want a newsletter. A newsletter says by implication, I've got a lot of good [ __ ] you should know and I'm going to parcel it out to you every month in increments. All right? Now, if you're real interested in whatever it is, that'll be okay. But basically, what the market wants is they want the answer right now. They don't want it parcled out. They don't want it delivered to them every month. They want you to hand it to them. Ergo, a

book, okay? Or a report. But call it a book. But call it a book. Call it a book. And a book. Jeff Paul calls it a book. But it is a book. It's bound like a little book. It's a book. Just take cut. What do you got? 11 by 17 or 11. You just cut it down. Philips Publishing called a book. They do magalogs and now they do bookalogs. Their advertising piece is a little book. Yeah. Looks like a pig. Is it okay to take my my report with which is nothing but a damn sales

pitch and put it into the form of a book or should I add No, there's a law against that section GL973 that was passed last Thursday at 2 p.m. says that Joe Polish cannot turn his free whatever it was into a book. No. Darn. That sucks because it sounded like a really good idea. So here I wanted to read the first couple paragraphs of this other unfortunate to see if I'm on track with this one. All right. Okay. Okay, here's my uh my headline. They all laughed when I started using these new marketing strategies. Their

grins turned to amazement and envy when qualified prospects flooded my lot. Well, that's sort of cute. The interesting thing about this ad is that it headline is 80% of it supposedly, but this ad has pulled better than any other ad I've ever run. It It's not as good as the other one, but it's What's the headline on that? Uh, they all laughed when I started using these new marketing strategies, but their grins turned to amazement and envy when qualified prospects flooded my lot. So, how would I uh you have any suggestions? It's actually not, you

know, that that's just a take off. They all laughed when I keep saying they knock that one off and get results with it. So, I figured I'd Well, you know, it's working. So, okay, did read read some of it. Okay. Oklahoma. Kim and Steve Bell of Bell Camper Sales enrolled in the RV marketers inner circle and began running direct response marketing techniques revealed in the program. Steve says, quote, "Our local competitors and all the advertising sales reps think I've gone off the deep end, but our new ads, sales letters, and promotions pull like crazy for

us now. We're having a great year, and most of our traffic and sales are coming from the unique marketing techniques we discovered in the 101 marketing secrets for RV dealers program. We're getting more response from these ads than from anything we've ever done. They're unconventional, but far more effective than the traditional marketing most dealerships do. There are lots of dealerships paying big bucks to advertising agencies to create campaigns that don't work anywhere near as well as these. We get 15 to 20 times the results While cutting our advertising expense by 35 to 50%. And we

got results even during this quote slow and quote time of the year. But the most exciting part is how prospects now perceive us. quote, "We wouldn't consider buying from anyone but you." That's what some of them say when they walk on our lot. And everyone sees us as an adviser genuinely interested in serving their best interests. I don't know a better way to tell our story and have prospects believe it. They don't see it as just another sales pitch. I recommend this program to any dealer who wants a breakthrough in sales. It works a zillion

times better than all the useless meto junk RV dealers have been taught to use. That's I wanted your feedback on the quote. From there, I go into who I am and what's in the program. But I I I you know, I pulled that quote out of these people. I think it's excellent so far. It's good. It's really good. Tells a good story. Yeah. So, what's the rest of it? My my thinking on here is we're in the um first paragraph running direct response. That's what I She starts out right Kim and Steve Bell of Bell

Camper Sales enrolled in the RV marketers inner circle and began running direct response marketing techniques revealed in the program. Yeah. You don't say what program some people go I don't want to do direct response marketing. Some people may I would change that but Pamela Yellen slightly you mentioned program but you didn't qualify with the program. What's the program? Uh I say later in the next paragraph I say uh 101 marketing secrets for RV dealers. Yeah. But you say in the first paragraph without having any reference to it before. Yeah. Okay. All right. And uh then

I go into uh I'm Pamela Yellen, CEO of the Prospecting and Marketing Institute, speaker at the 96 RVDA Convention Expo, and former sales manager for original RV publication. I've discovered 101 million dollar marketing and advertising secrets that will blow your competition away and turn your dealership into the cash cow you've always dreamed of. I put all the details in a free report that's yours for the asking. And quite honestly, the next four paragraphs are, you know, just like the same kind of stuff Joe puts in his ads. Okay. Uh, are you tired of dumping money

on scientifically on throw mud against the wall and hope advertising? Are you frustrated about by always competing against dealers who don't play fair, don't hold margins, and steal your customers by cutting corners on service and support? Do you detest cheapest price competition? I hate lowest price marketing, too, and I don't teach it. I can guarantee that I can free you from lowest price advertising and marketing once and for all forever. I'll show you how to seek out and attract customers who are not cheap price motivated, better quality, more profitable customers. Customers much more likely to

refer business to you. The hardest lesson for many RV dealers to swallow is this one because it seems so unfair. Being good has very little to do with how much profit you bank. Shockingly, this is this quote I took right out of one one of his letters. Shockingly, in Every field, including this one, some of the best, most knowledgeable, most skilled people are starving to death. Here's why. Even the best RV dealer in the world will struggle and suffer, even go broke, without a steady flow of new, good customers. Like it or not, making big

profits for your dealership is not about how much you know about RVs. It's how much you know about marketing. How can you transform an ordinary RV dealership in to a profit spewing machine? You can do it with marketing systems bringing in a steady, predictable stream of good new customers every week with no low price advertising or competition. You know, are are you going for leads with this, right? Correct. I just think you're way past I think you had them and you're starting to lose them now. You're starting to try to sell your product. Yeah. Right.

Okay. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. And the part here here's what's here's what can happen to you after uh after you get my report rather than here's what you'll learn. You know, you you've got it phrased as a question on each thing. Are you tired of uh I've got some of those. Do you detest cheap price competition? How can we transform an ordinary? So, you should just change that to eliminate price competition forever. Okay. Yeah. Instead of do you have price competition? Yeah. Tell them what's going to happen afterwards. So, you got to

go forward. One thing that struck me, And this hit on something John was talking about yesterday, is you don't know where the gold is, you know, to do the research. What did you do with the magazine, RV magazine? You said you were something. Oh, when I said I was speaker at the RVDA Convention Expo, and the magazine, you said something about a magazine. Oh, that I was a former sales manager for a regional RV publication. What was the name of that? Camporama. Here's just a thought. Write this one down. former employee of RV Trade magazine

finally reveals the truth. Some I'm I'm struggling here, but 101 Moneym Secrets. Well, I want to do something like that the magazine wouldn't published. Yeah. Only available to a small inner circle or something like that. Only available. Former employee of RV Trade Magazine spills the beans. Reveals facts. the editors were afraid to publish something. That's just to spur you thinking, you know. Yeah, I I see what you're saying. Um, reveals the facts. The editors were what? Afraid to publish. Afraid to because actually in my there I can probably play off of that because in my

letter I tell them about how I was a Salesperson. I made a lot of money doing it and one of the things is the dealers would always I would sell advertising to dealers who would always say to me, "I never know if the darn stuff is working." And I was always trying to come up with some sort of way that they could gauge their advertising, how well it was working. And I did my best and they were reasonably happy with it. But what I'm basically saying is that I didn't know [ __ ] about it.

When it came time to having this, I mean, I go I I don't even remember what the whole story is. But I mean, I basically, you know, totally raised advertising salespeople, myself being one of them. I say I just would never I mean, and try this variation, too. former employee of RV Trade magazine finally reveals the dirty little secret used by the most profitable dealers. Ooh. What? How can you not keep going to find out what you got? You got to know what that dirty little secret. You got to know. Almost illegal secrets. Yeah. What

wouldn't be an illegal secret, right? And there has to be a law against it. So it can't be a secret. That's a new uh you know Dan Kennedy's doing something real interesting. He writes ads, has them set up, sends them with an insertion order to the Wall Street Journal or somebody. They don't run. Then he says, "Here's the ad deal." Yeah. That's That's really clever. I wish I could take credit for that. Yeah. Yellow pages will not let you run consumer alert or warning ads. And so I guess you can use the same thing. This

is the ad the yellow pages wouldn't and send it and send it how send it. Okay, you got the this is the ad the yellow pages wouldn't let me wouldn't let me run and then you do it as a lead generator letter type thing or what or you run it somewhere else where they will let you run it or if you were doing it with a yellow page ad. Hey, you know what? If I have something, have something. One of the things that really helps is to know that something can be done and to know

how well it can be done. Like, who was Roger Banister? He's the uh guy that had problems with his legs, wasn't he? He's got broke the four-minute mile, right? Who else broke it? Uh someone a month after he did, I don't know. And a whole bunch of other people, but no one remembers her name. Yeah. All right. Okay. But what I'm going to do now, which I think is helpful, especially at this point in time, is to give you a glimpse of how well it can be done. Okay, I'm going to ask you to read

this. Just read it. Okay. Now, at last, you can have the best sex of your life at any age. World famous doctor reveals sex secrets so hot most People didn't even know they exist. Dear friend, with your permission and with strict precautions for privacy, I'm going to send you one of the hottest and most exciting sex books ever written. The book reveals breathtaking sex facts so powerful that they even astonish the doctors and sex experts who discovered them. Listen, my name is Dr. Ross Stewart, and I'm a licensed marriage and family therapists. My practice is

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check or money order posted 31 days ahead for $10 to name and address. By the way, checks and money orders should be made payable to Alagon Books and it is not a good idea to mail cash. Sincerely, Dr. Ross Stewart. PS. For extra fast service, you can use one of your credit cards and order by phone. The book will be sent to you in a plain unmarked envelope and there's no title on the cover. Therefore, just tell the operator who answers that you're ordering book number whatever. Here is a toll-free number 800, etc. A copy

of that, a variation of that ran as a full page in Miami Herald. We were selling a video tape for $69. We contracted the Sunshine Shine Answering Service to take the calls. They gave us 50 lines and we blew them out three times. They couldn't pick the calls. Now, there's some things in that ad that have some valuable lessons in them. First of all, who wrote the ad? A doctor, an expert. And and what does he tell you about himself immediately? That he's an expert. But what else does he tell you? Does he tell you

doesn't have his medical license? His license to practice number and the barricade. Now, you notice that this is an ad that is the exact opposite thing of the what Ross Jeff does. This is a palatable, dignified ad about what is usually, you know, a not talked about subject, certainly in print. That's a piece of work that's a Halbert and Carlton/Carlton effort. But we're about to launch that in a big way. And we've debated for a long time how to do it. I'm actually not doing it with John. I'm doing it with a guy named Eric

Weinstein. But, you know, we could sell right from the ad. We've proven that. But in this particular market, what's really valuable is the list. And so, what we're doing is we're making it a $10 book and the people call in and we're building this huge mailing list and we're going to sell them and the book is going to deliver, but then we're going to say, "But you should see how this looks on video." And then we send them and we give them an excuse. It's almost a responsibility to watch these adult videos. rationalizing it in

their mind. They other words helping them rationalize logically what they want emotionally. Yes. To get the videos. Exactly. Yeah. For medicinal and therapeutic purchases, right? And beautiful at the end. Double your money back guarantee as long as you're making an honest effort to try all these things and show proof right when they return. Did you write the book? I'm writing the book. Yeah. But anyway, I would say, you know, if I had to put up an ad that was really a great piece of work, that one is. It's a proven piece of work. And you'll

notice when John and I work, what we do is we write the bullets first. And you know, really and truly, the whole ad, everything you write should be almost a reason to get the people to read and believe the bullets. You either want what those bullets say. You want to know that seven secrets of taking a woman over the top or you don't? And if you do, then we've got you. Now, believe it or not, this is essentially the same type of piece of work. Let me take this. But you know what this is about?

This is about endodonics. I worked with Sam on this. Is this the one that pulled all the money, Sam? That's the one that went private mail. I'm not going to have you read this aloud because it's it's very long, but it's written kind of to the same formula as the other one on a very different subject. It's written on endodonics. Actually, I can leave a couple of these with whoever needs them. That would be great. Here's the copies. I'll send it to everyone else with the tapes. Okay. You can't have the sex one. Really? You

can't have that. But this one? Yeah, that one. And then this one, that's that's the same. You could keep that. Yeah, people ought to have that. And do you want us to copy this now, Gary? No, no, no. You can you can keep that that one with uh we sent out 230 and we got what? 80 orders. Priority mail. 230. You got 80 orders. Now, what we're looking at here is a newspaper ad $1,300. This is what he's saying. And the total cost of mailing was 230 * $3 plus the printing cost, which was negligible.

About 1,100 bucks. 1,100 bucks. For what? To do that priority mailing that brought in uh 80 *300. So you mailed this oversized. No, this this one. Yeah. Okay. But the ad that you just read, can you imagine someone reading that and not wanting to know that stuff? That's what you've got to do in your advertising. Whatever it is that you're selling, it's got to be in there. It's just almost can't stop yourself from having to know. I've had people order things from me and call me up and say, "God damn you, you son of a

[ __ ] Everything you write, I buy it. You get me everything." And They're kidding. Half kidding. But and I also have people call me up and say, "I've bought everything you've ever written. Don't you have anything else I can buy from you?" And what you want to do is you want to make it addictive. Addictive. You know, you got to get that in there. And the stuff that you're running, Joe, is it's okay. It's adequate, but it's not the kind of stuff we've been discussing lately, you know, in the last session of this. That's

encouraging. Yeah. I mean, because you know, the worst thing you want a guy like me to say is it's great because where you going to go from there, you know, and like your ad, I mean, I might be able to do a little bit of tinkering, but I couldn't improve it. Like the only thing I could do is is do another one for it, you know, probably a lot faster than you could that would equal it and then do another one and another one. But you got it. You you put into it what you had.

What's the story behind this one? How does this work? And that does about $2 million over a 10day period of time. We're looking at the newspaper ad now that says local furniture dealer celebrates 42nd birthday. And you run you use this you send it as a tear sheet or you run it as the newspaper. It's a full page ad in a tabloid newspaper. I imagine not too many other because normally your your standard furniture ad is just a bunch of screaming with pictures of furniture and get this twin set and this is a whole different

style of furniture ad you can't run these time people catch on You got the same rate so at the same time as long as you keep coming up with stories to tell right or reasons for that I have variations of like 10 different stories that I've done in that format and I was able to run those over a 6-month period of time. So, we're going to get copies of these. Joe's going to send us copies of his and anybody who buys these tapes is going to get copies. Now, also we have Arthur Kather's junior DDS.

This is a letter that you and Gary collaborated on. Again, the numbers on this letter that will be had it's a six- page letter that was went priority mail to there were 230 guys who were interested in attending the seminar but never did. Okay. For one reason or another. So, we sent them this letter by priority mail after the seminar was done and it was all put on video and we offered them the home study course at the same price for an 11-day period of time because we were going to raise the price after that

and we got 80 buyers. You mailed 230 230%. It wasn't up past the mail. That's the whole point. We would have kept going on and on cuz we were making tons of money off the deal, but they didn't want to do it anymore. that basically were idiots. That's the whole point. I mean, we had a gold mine going here and they said, "Hey, we're not going to mail this anymore." He went off and bought $100,000 worth of titanium drill bits. You're in charge of those. Don't worry about it. But that ended up being the wrong

uh mislabeled wrong size. This is what I need. What? Right stuff. The other side. Yeah. No, the right stuff. The computer. He's talking about this. Oh, this is Oh, yeah. They've been talking about this for a while. It's a flat screen. They're only going to make 12,000 of them. I know. And it's big bucks. It's like 8 8 to 10 grand. What the hell is it for? It's the Super Mac. Super Mac flat screen. It's like 10 grand. I think it's a limited edition. Then they're going to go out of business. Not that one, the

other side. Okay. Ask me anything else. Shoot. Pam has some great questions that we want to give me. Go back. Your question. I thought I had a dustite thing, but maybe Pam has some questions here that I thought were great that we because you were wanting to get to the root of her problem. You didn't cover, but if you could I'd be interested to hear what you have to say on these. Don't end up. Okay. You start with this. When you're sending this priority mail letter, does it always go blind? For what? Priority mail letter

containing the book or the special report or whatever it is that you're using. Do you send is it blind? Is there a return address? I mean, do they know? Yeah. No, you just put your address there. You put your name and the address on so they know the company. Yeah. Everybody's going to open that so they know the company who sent it. Yeah. Okay. All right. Question came out of this. So, you don't go through the specific strategies you're teaching them in your lead generation ad, but in your sales letter, do you? Yeah, I think

you sort of do. It's sort of like the Jeff Paul book. You can't keep it blind continually. Okay. You do have to get specific. Yeah. This is one you may be interested in. You mentioned on the teleconference that you want to avoid minutia. How do you avoid dealing with the minutia? As you mentioned on the teleconference, you have little or no staff and you have a small, very small number of staff. I'll tell you one that really is just refuse to do it. Don't do it. You know, I mean, you probably gotten something while you're

here in that you you s talked about your ad that you sweat blood and put all this time in, you know, and you and you were thinking it's over. But nothing you have done in the last 10 years has made you as much return on investment as that, has there? Correct. All right. So in a now nobody lives in a perfect world and you can't only do the one thing but but that's got to be your number one priority that what you just did has got to be to get that done because if that isn't

done and done well there's nothing else that needs to be done. So you you really have to prioritize and uh do you know the covy way of doing it which is really a good Way of of doing it. Um it it's it's it's a system of time management. This is not unique to me, but it's it's really worth repeating. And is if you draw a square and then draw two lines in it. So you've got four squares there. And the upper leftand one is quadrant 1. Over to the right is quadrant 3 to quadrant 2.

Below one is quadrant 3. And over is quadrant 4. Okay. Now quadrant one is label that um urgent. urgent and important. Quadrant 2 is important but not urgent. Quadrant three is urgent but not important. And quadrant four is not urgent and not important. Now which one of those quadrants do you think people successful people spend the most time in? Important but not urgent. Exactly. And something that that would be an example of is uh doing your exercise every day and watching your diet. It's not urgent, but it's important. And if you're doing things in quadrant

1, which is urgent and important all the time, what that means is that you're not operating correctly. Because you know, an example Would be having a heart attack and you know, getting an ambulance to take you to the hospital. Had you been living more in quadrant 2, it's unlikely that it's not as likely that you would had to take care of that thing. And so you need you can divide everything that you do into that thing. But the more time you spend doing quadrant 2 type tasks, the the better uh the more success you're going

to have. Okay? And and you should what I'm saying is to answer your question, all that minutia, you know, where does it fall? Uh, I I personally don't do that much of it anymore. I used to, but I don't do it now. This was a question my partner wanted cuz he's doing some of that. I shuffled it off on him. Okay. Well, that's that's my answer to it. I mean, okay. Okay. Um, I think you're interested in this one, too. How what what are good ideas for step down offers? The damaged program was certainly one

idea. Well, you do everything that you can to sell it the regular way. And then some of the things that you want to do is sell it on credit, sell it on payments, sell a stripped down version of it, sell a damage set version of it, sell a portion of it, a piece of it, three sentences at a time. And and and somewhere along the line uh you would have the remnants of what wasn't burnt in the fire. Okay. All right. Um some I wanted some ideas uh for marketing boot camps uh whether you would

use just any I mean obviously some of these ideas we've already talked about can be used. I just wondered if you had any other Well, if you haven't I I I mean the the way the way to sell marketing boot camps is to is to sell them to people with whom you already have an association or a bond. It's pretty tough to get people to pay multi,000 to go to a boot camp, you know, until they've had a a taste of your wonderfulness. So, in doing that, do you use the priority mail packets and the

telephone? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a good idea to do that in most cases. Really, I do because you know you're if you're selling something for 2,3 $4,000, what you pay if you're mailing to, you know, if you're fishing in a pool where the fish already like you, the cost of each mailing is is almost inconsequential. We had a uh Dan and I did a a boot camp together to insurance managers and I mailed it just to my own database of of Customers. We picked out I picked out the uh like 70 people that I

really thought would be there and should be there and were the leaders in the industry and I FedExed all of those people the sales letter and that actually did work reasonably well. Um what does well mean? You said it didn't blow me it didn't blow me away. Uh we we got like two or three uh people signing up out of it and I would have thought we would have gotten more from that particular How much was it? Uh early bird discount was like $12.87. So, you had a $1,300 sale and you got three of them.

So, that's $3,900, right? Yeah. And how much did you pay to get that? Oh, you know, like the FedEx is where I got them for like seven or eight bucks a piece. And how many did you mail? 70. You So, that's $490 and you took in $3,900. And how many other people are on your list? Uh, 3,000. Why? Just forget it then. [Music] Well, I guess in my mind I'm thinking, well, if you've got this your prime pro I don't even know what I don't even know what to say. I feel like I'm talking to

K weather, you know. I mean, like, what's the problem? You're making seven times your money. Yeah, I would think there'd be a way to get an even higher percentage than that if they're your prime prospect. But I'm sorry to be pissing and moaning about it. How many did you mail? 70 to just the top people that we just absolutely knew would want to be there. And you know, you only got three out of it. To me, that I was surprised. I really was. I mean, I'm not complaining about the return on investment. I would have

thought I would have gotten at least a 10% out of that particular. Did you only mail one FedEx package? Um, one FedEx, right? Right. Then I did a I did a fax mailing after after that, but only one mailing. One fax one FedEx mailing. So, if you would have mailed 500 FedEx packages, how what do you think? I really don't know because I I I made the assumption that I should do it just with my best prospects and and just mail it to the rest of them. Maybe that was I got I'm sorry for doing

All right. I can handle it. All right. Listen, how many customers do you have? Depends on the market. How from that market? Oh, from that market. Um Okay. I had at that time about 350 clients. Now, you just said on that list, how many do you have on that list? On a list, 350 clients and about 3,000 prospects. Okay, here's what you do. You take every 10th client. That'll give you 35, right? Yeah. And how many prospects do you have? Uh, 3,000. 3,000. So you take every 10th one there. That'll give you Now that's too

much for you. Take every 20th one. That'll give you 150, right? I think so. So you have 185. Now you mail 185 of those and say it cost you seven bucks a piece and if not one single person orders, you will have lost 8 or 900 bucks, right? Mhm. But what if those 3,000 people male they come in at the rate only onethird of what your other one was and you were getting three out of 80. So let's say you only get one out of 100 and you got 3,000. So that's uh uh one time.

So you got 30. You got a building gold mine there. You just got to do it. Yeah. You just you just mail every 10th one or every 20th one. But don't see you have made a decision that ruins salespeople sometimes and you have qualified yourself to a degree out of business there. You have made the decision that these people won't buy. You didn't give them a chance to prove it to you. You didn't bother with that. You just said that they won't. And I'm getting on you about this because I care about the people I

consult with and I want you to do it. Go back and mail a couple hundred of those people to your prospects. Go do it. It cost you chunk change. If you lose, there's almost zero risk. But what if you win? What if it works? What if you only What if you mail 200 and you get two signups? I I still Then you mail all of them, right? And then you call the people that you mail to and you use the dollar bill thing. You got a lot of money in that list right there. [Music] Um,

I have a uh a boot camp coming up that I I wanted to get more exposure in the RV market and I went to someone who Already has a a relationship with a bunch of RV dealers in a geographic area. I got him to sponsor me doing a boot camp to his people. He's going to send out the letters and he's going to mail to them and and even basically tell them, you know, I know I shouldn't even be be I mean, there's a part of me that really doesn't want have to even have her

speak to you because she's going to show you how to spend less on your advertising, which is going to cut into my lifeblood and get more results with it. But I feel I owe it to you because, you know, I want to help you grow your businesses. So, that kind we're going to do that kind of thing. And I wondered and I and if it works, I'd like to roll it out and do it in some other instances. No, no, no. If it works, you do the same thing you did with your FedEx mailing. You

drop it and go on to something else just like I do. No, I promise you that if it works, I will not drop it because when I know when I know it works. All right. I'm kind of stupid about it sometimes. I don't always know it works. See, I do this all the time. I mean, I I do it way worse than anybody in the room. That's a really good way to do that. The only thing caution I would make is I would if I could tell the tell the guy that's your host, let me

take care of the mailing for you. put take it out of his hands to make sure it goes out. Make sure it goes out. Yeah, good idea. Because it's probably not, you know, at the top of his priority list. Well, he's making money off of it, too. Still probably not. And, you know, and it's closer to the top of yours than his. And if you could get him to let you handle it, it'd be good. Okay. So, um uh All right. So, let's assume that let's assume that I'm going to handle the mailing. Would would

you recommend it, you know, it comes from him? Yeah. And it's a same thing. You just do it to make sure it gets done. But it does come as Yeah. And priority mail, I think, works about as good as I think you're right. It looks about the same. Yeah. Yeah. A lot cheaper. Yeah. A lot cheaper. Yeah. And uh and they'll they'll deliver on Sundays, too, I think. Yeah. Huh. Okay. So, um and it's okay. They can they know the package is coming from him. It's got his label on it, even though we're mailing it

out for him. It's not a blind package. And would you have it be just a cover letter from him and a sales letter from me or the entire letters from him? How many people is it going to? Uh about 150 dealerships. Um I I kind of have it all from him. They don't know you. Some of them would have seen my ads or maybe heard. Yeah. But they all have a a pretty close relationship with him, don't they? Right. All right. So, what's the next question? Uh, does it really matter you everyone's throwing napkins whether

you do um no. Okay, next question. No. Does it make a difference when you when you're doing renewals like you're doing inner circle newsletter renewals? Um how some we're doing it now and we all haven't had a chance to test it to see how well it's actually worked. Is that you know I my people are now all giving me the right to hit their charge card one year from the time that they sign up on a monthly basis after that to continue their newsletter and certain other benefits. Is there is it is there a formula

for whether that's a better way to do it than to just get them to renew right away for an extra year or whatever? Well, Kit Weathers has almost 100% renewals and that's the way he does it, but he sends a new Kitwathers is he sends it with the first newsletter. Yeah. But he but they almost have to have his newsletter. Now, what you don't want to end up is charging a bunch of cards and have those charges go south and get in trouble with your merchant account, right? So, I I don't really know the answer

to that. I um Well, what let's talk about newsletter renewals. You've been in the newsletter business for a long long time. What's a what's a good what's an acceptable mortality rate? I mean 90% is acceptable. 70% but what realistically Um pragmatically speaking um I sell people I sell somebody $800 my course they get my free newsletter for for uh 200 you know they get a $200 newsletter subscription for a year a year comes up I want them to renew. Okay. And Dan Kennedy points out and I think validly that it's not the content. I used

to think that it was the content of what I gave them for 12 months and you talk about that being addictive. Okay. I try to give them really good stuff. Kennedy says it's not so much the quality of what you give them. Well, it has to be good. But if it's good enough, it's more the offer that you give them, the willing to give away. Here's something I learned from Howard Ruff. There's something even more important than that. They sign up for what they think you can do for them. They renew because they like you,

you know, and it's the personality letters that that really go. I mean, people that read my newsletter know all kinds of things about me. Howard Ruff, you knew all about his kids. The guy with the retirement letter, you know, his dog Fluffy, you know, and you just got to put something personal into it. If the the word I keep keep saying is bonding if you're going to do the news, you want to be, you know, Joe is the champion of the carpet cleaners. That's what you want to be is the, you know, fighting for your

rights kind of guy. And you want to tell them personal stuff and snapshots of you and your family and all kinds of stuff like that. Okay. So, the personality letters Mhm. work and they renew because they like you. But that's not the only reason. I mean, you just can't write stories about you and your dog Fluffy. What's your renewal rate? Um, I mean, you don't even send letters to Rene, do you just let them expire, right? Or do you even keep track? It's probably not the right question to be asking you, right? Yeah. I mean,

how the hell do you know? Uh, that's a good point. I preach better than I practice. It's very high. 60% of my people are lifetime subscribers. Okay? You know, and that cost almost $3,000. And one of the things though, what you're going to find is what your renewal rate is and what all the rest of is how much you put into it. You want to keep the results you had before, you got to do what you did before. Can't can't go to sleep, you know. Okay. I'm thinking I I've been sending them now a a

four-page letter, the last with their last two issues. I I I a lot of ways now that I can strengthen that. What about what would you think about going to a four then we're starting four months before hitting them with a with a four four months um $160 if you're renew this month $170 if you're new next month 180 if you're new next month or 90 I personally I don't like discounting newsletters you don't like discounting at all because it cheapens it I think so okay well if you're if you're going to do that and

you should follow the the the wisdom that the best time to renew the person is right away you're going to get a much better renewal rate before they even get the first letter really if you f if you keep I save all of Philips publishing renewal letters and some of the other bottom line they're always trying to get me to renew 2 or 3 months or 1 month after I just subscribe I don't I I personally never take Advantage of that but that doesn't obviously work when Philips does it do they give bonuses for renewal

sometimes not free records or free books special recorder selection or a little better price if you do it right now Philips incidentally has somewhere in the vicinity of 50% renewal rate which is very good considering they have over a million subscribers overall. Yeah. Kennedy was saying Kennedy says 25% is good. Well, it is sometimes. It is sometimes, you know, there's a lot of um like if you're working the car dealer market or the market that you're working, there's a lot of people that are fly by nights. They come in, they go out, you know, they're

they're dilotants. They And so you you can't expect that you're going to keep those people on all the time. And also if you know if you work in the market like Jeff Paul is working you're basically working the dreamers and the wannabes and those people usually only stay in heat I think 18 months to to about 3 years and then they say you know what I'm just going to keep working at the Visco and and or whatever at the what? Oh that was where my grandfather worked the Visco. just the plan. He doesn't even have

a Kmart for that the GM or gives away 12 months worth and then Tried to get a paid one going because I got the sub subscription sales letter for it but then when I bought it sent back saying uh you know we're not doing it or something like that cuz obviously the test didn't work to go longer than the 12 months with the JPDK really 12 newsletters. Did you get that uh offer for that in the tip of the month? Yeah. And then cuz I already bought it, but they didn't crash the sugar cuz they

were testing it. Yeah, I did too. This program concludes with tank eight. [Music] Pamela Yellen was asking a question. Go Pamel. One of my another another one of my inane questions. Shoot them at shoot. I'm I'm working out this What's your question? joint venture deal with this agency manager who it has the potential of being a home run. This is that's why I want to do it right. He's develop he's a the top agency manager for his company and he's developed this entire I mean it sounds really boring and I've obviously got to make it

sound much sexier but basically what it does is it teaches the agents how to focus on a business plan that helps them grow their you know get a fast start in the business or if they're experienced agent and helps them double or triple their business with less work in about 60 days Or less. Okay. So I'm trying to figure out the best way to get started with that. My current thinking is to do it as a boot camp to the agency managers and sales managers. These are insurance guys. Yeah. And then sell the agency managers

on the idea of an agent business planning kit that's going to be, you know, four or 500 bucks or whatever for each agent and then market the kit to the sales managers and directly to the agents. But I wanted some thoughts on what's the you know, I've got this guy. He's got a great reputation. All the ads of course and all the sales letters would be with his image, his name, his, you know, we'll be writing all the copy, but it's going to be him. Any suggestions on what what are you trying to sell them?

A program that he's come up with to help. It's his pro that business plan program. Yes. Uh-huh. So, what's your place in it? Well, we basically did a joint venture with him because he doesn't know squat about marketing and so we're marketing the program for him. So, you want to know how to market his program? Most and he's got people that he knows, right? Well, he's known in the industry by some and certainly we could make him, you know, if they haven't heard of him. He's active in the industry. He's on the board of directors

of the association. Well, you know, John touched on this yesterday. The real question is how do you market a boring as dog [ __ ] product, you know? Exactly. And and what you do Is you just get into it and you just sweat blood and pretty soon you'd want to stop writing those things because even though they're profitable, there's no easy answer to that. You just the only thing I can tell you as a general rule is you got to focus on the benefits of it, not the product itself. You got to focus on you

ever call it a business, but they go that's going to transform my my life. Yeah. Right. You know, I addressed a huge audience in Chicago at the Drake Hotel and it's Puma, the Professional Insurance Mass Marketers Association. Those were the dullst, most boring people I have ever addressed. And how did you end up addressing them? I don't know they called and asked me to you know every speaker generally has a few things that are tried and true you know I mean you know I sometimes will pull out my cow story which is a true story

and by the time I get to the mood part you know lots of people are laughing or but these people sat there hundreds and hundreds of them I mean they just sat there didn't shuffle papers their expressions didn't change after a while I was standing up there and I wasn't nervous I wasn't frightened nothing and I just said to myself this is the shittiest group of people I've ever dressed. And I looked out at them and I says, I'm going to change the rest of my talk. I said, you know what? I've been doing this

for a lot of things and I think you were the most ignorant, marketing, illiterate group of dull people I have ever addressed. And I spent like 20 minutes just lashing. I got off and I literally had guys running after me down the We're not all that way. You know what I mean? Just get away from me, you know, but they are. I mean, maybe they're not all, but Jesus, the people I I work with, they're dentists. The ones you're talking about, they are, but the aspect of the industry I work with, they're not boring. They're

a lot of fun. They're interesting people. And I know how to make the program sound sexy. That I guess I I mean, I know it's boring and I know I can make it sound sexy, but I guess my question is, what' you say, son? They camp a lot. They go out camping. Yes. Is there what what's the best way to tell the story? Is it to you FedEx or priority mail all packets of the bear in the woods? The guy takes his wife, ties her to a tree and he wants to have sex with her

and he puts honey all over and then this bear attacks her and starts licking all the honey off and he blames himself for it. But you could take it from that almost out of the RV. But I had I had taken I got to tell you a story. I I I I had I showed Joe this and Joe, I think you kind of tried to you got us some ideas from this, but one of the most successful campaigns I ever ran was an endorsement uh ad that one of my agency managers did for this recruiting

program. Basically, I wrote the whole thing for him. But I interviewed him by tape and then I had a letter from him that he sent out to people and it made more money than anything I've ever done. But in the letter, so you probably won't do it again. Well, no, no, in the letter and even in the ad he had made a comment where he said it's almost as good as sex. And when he said that on the tape, I said, "I'm gonna put that in because I think it's really cute and it makes you

real and it's" and he says, "Sure, whatever. Whatever." He signs a release, right? So he So about a month after the ad comes out, he says, "You put that stuff in there. My company's got the ad and they're they're really upset. They want you to take that out of all your ads and your letters." So this is that kind of market. You can't really get away with, you know, that kind of stuff. I'm just making a comment. do it. You know how a lot of movie stars and Lloyds of London as a publicity stunt they

insure a woman's breast or her legs or something like that? You could send a picture of some big woman with a big chest and say this is what turned around one of the biggest insurance companies in the world. Tell them how they insured each breast for $400,000 and Lloyds of London got so much publicity out of now you may not want to go that far. However, you know, then you got it. That's which brings me to another point about creativity. One of the things that is an important thing to creativity is fatigue. And you know,

you notice we're starting to talk about ridiculous things. Now, but a lot of times this is where the gold ends up coming because what happens is your inhibitions and your barriers are down and you're more like you were when you're 7 years old, you know, and you're talking about insuring someone's breast or doing, you know, a bear in the woods covered with honey or whatever. And believe it or not, this is the kind of stuff that you got to get into. And one of the tricks is to remember that just cuz we're talking about it

doesn't mean it's going to be what appears in print. The worst kind of people you can have in a meeting like this is they're sitting there tense all the time and Sam will say well you know put you know a spear a bear with honey in the woods you my god they're going to put a bear in the woods and spear with honey. You can't do that. And it's mind freezing. You know, you got to get those people out of any kind of creative sessions because you got to understand what we're doing here is we're

just talking. None of this like Gary say sometimes to me, uh, what would it take to sell every single person you approach by direct mail or by newspaper and we talk about that and say, "But that's impossible. We could never offer that." And then you back it off from there and you keep backing it off and finally you get to the point where it's like, "Hey, this might work and we might make some money doing it this way." But you take it to its extreme. Yeah. Write write an ad that you wish were true as

though it were. You know, you're not going to mail it, but just say, "God, I wish this was the story, you know, and just write it. Write it as strong as you can." Don't ever edit your passion in the first. We talked about when I gave out the $20, we find we started at a hundred. Said, "What if we offered people $100 just to come in the store to look around? How many people do you think would show up out of a,000?" And I figured about a,000, right? And that would be too expensive. So then

we How many would come in if we gave him 50? We said it' probably be a thousand there. So then we said, "What about five bucks?" said, "Yeah, probably not that many people came in." And he finally settled at 20. Yeah. And we had about 200 people coming in out of a What did you project on that one? Well, listen what he said. About 200 people came in out of out of a thousand. So, you know, like in your thing, you might say, "I'll give you $100 if you read my report." How many people do

you think would respond? Everybody, right? So, then you start working back from that. You you go from the ridiculous or something that's farfetched and then you move back from that. Yeah. Cuz you're not stuck with the first thing that comes out of your mouth. Nobody's forcing you to print it like the magazine says, "You said that first, we're going to publish that." But that helps get you in the mindset rather than what do I want to give them, it helps what do they want? What would they automatically respond to? And then it opens your mind

and you start crawling out of your box. Yes. You don't get confined cuz I I found myself trapped in that. And Gary helped me get out of that. So I think about that whenever I make an offer. I say, "What's the most ridiculous thing I can offer that everybody will accept?" And they say, "I can't do that." It opens your mind to the point where you're more receptive to other offers that maybe you wouldn't have been before. So, you got to start thinking that way, too. Yeah. You got to really put as much passionate error

on the side of too much passion. You can always edit down, you know, Always just take it to its extreme and then you can act on even go beyond legal bounds. Yeah. What could I do that's illegal that I know is going to work? What if and think about what if the government said I could say anything I want to for the next month and it doesn't have to have a smidgen of truth in it. No one can sue me and no one can arrest me. What would be the ultimate thing and then write that

one? You'll be surprised how much that can liberate your mind. We get so confined with our upbringing and teaching and learning that we're confined in a box say oh you can't do that you can't do that. You know we sat in meetings and say oh that'll never work we can't do that. You know what the best example that you people represent of doing that? You've been sitting around for months wondering whether or not you should use direct mail and for about three or 4 hundred bucks, you could have known, right? You know, you just put

it and mail it out. You know, maybe you can't use direct mail. Who knows? Mail it out, find out, go to the next thing. Yep. Who knows? You know what I've been wondering, though? Can we use direct mail? No. Who knows? I'll get back to you in about six weeks. Yeah. Let me let me tell you one I don't know if it's a final thing, but we're getting pretty close to the end there. That there's one thing that one of I think that Dan Kennedy did you guys a good service cuz he gave you the

safest, most likely to work model there is. Now, let me tell you this. Once you have a winner, what most people are guilty of Is not making enough mistakes. You've got your winner now. Now you start throwing everything at the wall you can think of and you keep going with that which sticks. Start throwing everything at the wall. I like that. It's like balls to the wall. Mhm. Okay. Day eight theme start. Yeah. I mean try the dollar bill letter. Try the FedEx. Try some direct mail. Try some tear sheets. You try different offers. Thing

is he taught you how to fish but he only gave you a certain amount of line. You're starting to run out of line. Yeah. And I mean, what you're doing now is you're fishing with the same old lure. You know, the fish are still hungry, but they're not going to bite that j. Gary, what do you think about sales letters on audio tape? Cuz I'd be I'm real good at talking. But you're going to say transcribe, but then when you transcribe, you lose all my personality, the tenonality, and stuff. What do you think of you

putting my sales letter on audio? Well, again, I think you should give it a try. That's not something I would bet on. I'll tell you why. I think the least effective way to sell somebody something is video. Second is audio and the best is print. And the reason for that, you send someone a videape, they've got a fine time, a VCR, etc. With an audio tape, it's the same thing, but to a Lesser degree cuz they could listen to it in the car. And then uh the point is when they read something, if they get

interrupted, they can go back and start reviewing and going over it again. Where with an audio and a video, it may be too hard. But with an audio, they are forced to listen to it in the order. They can't skip over things. Well, pay attention. Yeah, they're forced to listen in that order. But have you ever driven around your car listening to audio and then you get halfway through it and say, "What the hell did he just say?" I start thinking about something else. And the thing is is that they are not forced to listen

to it at all. They can ignore it. Here's an interesting statistical test that I did. I mailed out for my last $100,000 weekend where people come to my boot camp for a,000 bucks each. I had a list of 2,000 I was going to mail to. I mail all of them the same sales letter, but a thousand of them I sent an audio tape and I thought it was just a tremendous audio tape and that would just kick up sales because I mean I had these testimonials from the last one and I had these people saying

how it changed your life. Literally crying and this is just the most wonderful thing I ever heard. You taught me things you changed my life that kind of stuff. Okay, I put that in there thinking that the people I wanted to test it to see how much it increased response. Let me tell you what what it did. It dropped your response by 2/3. Yeah. By by half. Okay. Yeah. Significantly. I did that too. Okay. Now, why why did it jumped mine? Because you know what? Delay is the death of a sale. They read the letter.

They I got to listen to the video before I make a decision or the audio. And I never get around to listening to the side. Same thing. I did the same thing. Yep. This I was not stupid. So stupid. I just at least I tested it. But you because otherwise, you know, but all that was is a learning experience. Oh, tremendous. Tremendous. Cuz I ordered 2,000 tapes and I thought, "Oh, I'm going to send it a thousand of them." So I I'll I'll I'm so sure it'll work. I'll use the other thousand for the next

seminar while I'm throwing a thousand pages. Who cares? You know. No, no, no. This is what you do at the next one. This what you do with the included with this. This is what I did for mine and it it upselles. I took my testimonial tapes, put it in a separate envelope, um mailed them out to the people with a letter that said, "Oops, I goofed. I you were supposed to get this tape included in the big packet of information that was recently sent to you, but we forgot to put in the tape. Sorry, my

apologies, Joe. And we just include this tape and we mail it, but we mail it before we send the sales letter. And then a couple days later, no, because what's happening is they're calling the office saying, "I didn't get a big packet of information after they listened to the tape." And so a couple days later, they get the sales letter and they're already crying cuz they listen to the tape. And it helped my response. I mean, I had I had another 25 people at my boot camp in the the last one. You like the idea?

You want to know a great way to [ __ ] with people's minds? Sure. When you go on a trip and you're in Europe or somewhere, send them a telegram. Say, "Ur, you must ignore my first telegram." And uh do you know that there was um this is when people use typewriters all the time. If if like if you mailed a sales letter and you got a 100% response or whatever you got was 100, you know, that's the index and you followed that up with a carbon copy of that sales letter written on there. It

said, you know, this is a copy of a letter I've sent. you still haven't gotten a reply, you'll get 70% of what you got on the first letter. But if you send the carbon first before you sent the original, you get like 110% response, which is sort of a variation of what you just said. Say that again. No, I missed it. I just exact same thing. He's he's sending out the carbon first, saying, "Here's a copy of the letter that I sent you." But he's sending that letter first. He's sending the step two letter saying,

"Last week I sent you a letter. You didn't respond. Here's a carbon copy of it." Right. Most people don't believe in carbon copies anymore. But no, but I was thinking send carbon. There's a direct mail piece out there that a lot of people use that gets an 80% response. 80 to 90%. I want to send my letters on car. What is that? A wedding invitation. Works every time. Jesus. Well, you want to get You got to analyze that. Well, a wedding invitation. What do you got? What do you got there? See, he's taking you deeper

into this [ __ ] Oh my god. You know what? Why don't we send our letters disguised as a wedding? You got the ruler. You've got the rule of reciprocity there. Okay. You've got something for nothing. Well, but you got to buy a gift, but you're getting But no, really, it's really culture. It's a cultural thing there that you're obligations. You just read in everything. Rule of reciprocity. You just read in You just got to analyze [ __ ] everything, don't you? What do you think? I don't know. I don't think he I mean, you're

trying to figure this out. Why is it? Because if you can write something as as good as a wedding invitation, you're rich. You know what I think we should do? We should like make fake wedding invitations and then put a little show that says, "Read this envelope after you've read my wedding invitation." And then this little pitch that says, "It's like getting married. I figured, you know, I think it's a good idea. It's one of those fatigue things, you know, but you'll once you listen this, you'll Realize how brilliant that actually is to disguise your

sales letter into a wedding invitation. Or better yet, use a floppy disc. put your whole sales letter on and insert it into that wedding. Well, you want to know really like super effective but really down and dirty just barely legal stuff with that. You know, certainly June 11th, 1997. John Q. Ever 123 Elm Street, Mass, Ohio 44646. Dear Mr. Everett, I never thought I'd be writing a letter like this, but also I never thought I'd beat a woman like your wife either. I haven't spent a lot of time in Maslin, Ohio. I was only there

for about a oneweek period and that was last August. But I'll never forget what happened there. And the thing about it is I've always been trying to, you know, get in touch with you since. But let me tell you why. On the next page, I've decided to take a chance and tell you about my experience. Go and stop in the middle since go to page two. But you do this on your letterhead with your phone and there's no page two. What that guy's got to do is call, right? And then what do you say when

he calls? Let me tell you something that I actually do. I've been doing this for years. Every once in a while, you'll be calling somebody who's got a very efficient secretary who's guarding the gate, the gatekeeper. You can't go. And so I'll call and I'll say, "Uh, it's Mr. uh Everett there. Who's calling, please? My name is Gary Halbert. May I ask what it's about? I said, well, it's very personal. Do you have an appointment to speak with him? No, I don't. Well, Mr. Everett doesn't talk to people without an appointment. She said, "Unless he

knows what it is. He's a very Businessman." I said, "Well, like I said, it's personal." She said, "Sir, you have to tell me what it is or I'm afraid that I can't let you talk to Mr. Ever." I said, "Are you sure I can talk about this to you?" And yeah, what? She said, "What?" I said, "I want to know what he's going to do about my wife." And she says, "What are you talking about?" I said, "Look, the test just came back from the lab. They're positive. He's admitted he did it. He said he's

going to take care of it. Now, he's either going to take care of it or he's not. And if he's doesn't, I'm going to see my [ __ ] lawyer." Okay, now you know it. What are we going to do? You know, and I do that. You know what she does? Now, think about it. She goes in, "Excuse me, Mr. Ever. I think there's a call you'd better take." She doesn't tell him what it is. She isn't going to tell him that some guys talking about his wife. He said, "Hi, this is Mr. Ev. Mr.

Whatever. My name's Gary Halbert. You know, I've been hearing a lot about you over the years. I want to talk to you about and just go on, you know, just start talking because she's never going to go dare go back. What about what about that wife? My second. Of course not. We'll do a conference call. We'll call AT&T and they say, "We can't get you on for half an hour." So Gary will say, "We're all doctors. We're doing open heart surgery and we've got a cross country consultation. We've got to get on immediately." Yeah. And

they say, "Yes, sir." And they get us all connected and we start talking. I call it fine gold. Dr. Fine Gold, you know. Oh, did you? Yeah. And we get on immediately. No. I had a girlfriend, Laura, that was staying at a hotel in Orlando and it's this monster hotel and they, you know, and I'd call up and here's the way they answered. Monster hotel. Please hold. And before you even had about the seventh call, they'd pick up the phone by Dr. Fineold here. Medical emergency. Got a patient room. and they put me right through

it. And that's where I started inventing the art of fine golding. And you know, doctors are the best. Doctors get attention. You know, you can walk up to the client and say, "Excuse me, I don't mean to interrupt, but uh my name is Dr. Halbert, and I've got surgery scheduled for about, you know, in just about 20 minutes." And they'll just like put you right through. Nobody says, "Let me see your proof that you're a doctor." So, be a doctor. Get you conference calls. Say Tom. You know what else they get you? The lowest humanly

rate possible you can get on cell phones. They give it to doctors. So, make yourself a doctor. I mean, did you ever ask for a doctor for his ID? Well, my wife's going to be answering phones. I'll make sure if you ever call butcher true. Do you know I got there was the people pull a joke on me at Kitweather seminar that really worked and there was a lawyer I knew hated me and I got this guy came up to me and and mentioned her name and said he was suing me and I said why?

He says maybe this will help you understand. Pulls out. His name was Dr. fine gold and he was in a They put him up to it. They thought it was a joke. He's one of my subscribers, you know, and he actually is the Dr. Fine Gold. But I call that fine gold. And you know, it's like my mother died a while ago and a couple years ago and I found out how much easier her death made for me to get priority treatment. And my mother is, you know, I mean, she owned a biker barn. We

had a lot of laughs. She she wouldn't mind this. Sometimes I'm going someplace something. I I excuse I'm not thinking too clearly. my mother just died and I've got to get out of here. You know, whatever. All you're doing is doing things to get what the people should give you anyway, you know, which is now all the people on the tape are going to Well, plus you're snapping their consciousness. It is it's a paradigm change. You're just giving them a paradigm change. Sure. I need I need looks a lot like some of your letters, I'm

sure, part of it. All right, I'm out of here. I got some ad proof. It's 4:15. You scared? Did you learn anything? You want to go back home and just keep doing things the same old way or keep not doing them. That's better. You want some promotional stuff? Yeah. I want a picture of me here. Bye everybody. Bye Terry. And everybody on the tape, he said bye. We're going to end this tape. It's pretty much wrapped up for the day. And uh we're going to leave with Gary's carbonized [ __ ] theory. And what I'm

going to say is I was just telling uh Joe that we have way too many ideas and I mean that and way too much marketing and he shouldn't be going after anymore and that he should be taking like a vacation every 3 weeks to places like Jamaica where they don't know what marketing is and I'm very serious about that because there's a point where you just adding on and adding on and you know it I'll tell you what it reminds me of is information overload that people get when they become addicted to the internet you

know and they say oh god you know I can and they're sitting there in front of that screen gathering information for 14 hours a day or they're developing new ideas, etc. You know, you don't need a thousand good ideas and you can't implement a thousand good ideas. I think you're at the point now where you're starting to suffer from carbonized [ __ ] effect. And I'll tell you what that is. A lot of people don't know it, but when you are born, God or whoever is running schemes assigns you a little invisible angel with little

invisible wings that flutter around your your head and he has a little invisible mallet and he has a little invisible bag of [ __ ] which and the bag is porous and he's got that you know you can't feel it but he's got in one hand he's got that bag of [ __ ] on top of your head all the time and he's got the invisible mallet all the other and every time you're given misinformation, the little angel assigned to you whacks that bag with his little invisible mallet and the bag being porous, some of

the [ __ ] filters through the bag and your head being porous, it goes down Into your cranial cavity. It starts when you're young and you're crying for food. Mom says, "Don't cry. It's not time to eat." Well, it is time to eat when you're hungry. And so the angel goes, "Wap." a little bit of that [ __ ] filters down in there as you get a little older and you know you you're looking at pictures and you come across a Playboy magazine and you know maybe your mom tells you that's bad. You go whack

and a little bit more [ __ ] comes down. Then you go in school and they're going to take you to civics class and they say this is how business works and government works. You know whack whack, you know, cuz it all works on graft and stuff. And then you know you go to church and they they say that uh if you say 47 Hail Marys you can kill people and get away with it. Whack whack whack. And then the Republicans are going to save your ass. Whack. The Democrats are going to save your whack.

There comes a point usually when you're about 29 years old that there is a problem with this. And the problem is that there is your cranial cavity is a finite amount of cubic inches in space in there. But there's an infinite amount of [ __ ] that the angel little angel has that this little fairlike creature has to pound in your head. And so you begin to get what Arthur Haley referred to as a dense pack. The [ __ ] begin, that's the only way you can get more [ __ ] He has to pound

it harder. And there's so much in there. It gets denser and denser and denser until actually it hardens to a diamondlike hardness. And you can tell when this has happened to people. I can tell it with Joe. And you know how you can tell is you look at Their eyes and you see radiating out of it the gleam of what appears to be intelligence and enthusiasm and go get them. And all it is is light reflecting off [ __ ] that is so dense and hard packed it has the brilliance of a diamond and it's

throwing it back at you. Now to go any further in life what you have to do is give yourself periodically a mental enema. You have to begin with a stool softener. Now, I'm sort of a living stool softener. That's kind of what I did here the last two days, you know, is the first thing you do, but you need to work at it more now. And I mean, you really need to take vacation sort of as an in. But the thing is about this [ __ ] in there is in there are diamonds and pearls

and rubies and emeralds and stuff, but they're all packed within the [ __ ] Once you soften the brain stool and begin giving yourself a mental enema and it comes out and it's just and you oh wait wait wait you know there's a oh that's green that looks like enma and you wash the [ __ ] off of it and you hold it under a faucet and you put that aside and put it over here and then you keep going around through the [ __ ] till you find another one and you put it wash

on put it and pretty soon you have a beautiful necklace of a life which you are never going to have if you don't concentrate on getting the pearls by taking vacations and and instead continue your insane obsessive insanity driven madness of acquiring more and more information and expertise and ideas. All right. Well, it's been a lovely two days. It's all the listeners. Uh hope you had fun listening. Bye. [Music]