If net income is your ultimate measure in your particular private equity company, what's contributing to net income? >> And so revenue maybe, unless you're a commodity, but let's just use the small R revenue, not capital revenue, right? >> 100%. >> Small small R revenue. And then what's driving that? And it's some number. It's some metric. It's like deals closed. Yes. Whatever it is. >> And then what's the metric right above that? Let's say it's product demos. But then what's that percentage close rate in between? So now if you know that your average deal size is
a thousand and you know that the metric right right above it is supposed to be X. Yes. >> And you know that value and you know that close rate. You know the value of a demo. >> Yes. >> So every demo is worth $500. >> Right. And then you just do that backwards all the way up to whatever your marketing vanity metrics are. And you can actually place a penny, a dime, whatever it is value on every impression you get to your website. So you start at the bottom and you work your way up. And
that is your scorecard. Every single one of those little layers is the scorecard. >> And you're measuring them. And the math has got to work going down and it's got To work going back up back up. And that also gives you where the thing is broken. So all of a sudden when these two metrics aren't in alignment anymore or wow they used to be 10% of each other and now they're 5% of each other. Red flag like stop and think about what you just did. Did you just tweak paperclick? Did you just miss a month
of posting on social, whatever the thing was. And you can now start to diagnose what part of your marketing system broke because Every single one of these metrics that are in your scorecard are actually connected to each other. Hey everybody and welcome to the marketing blender show. I am Deacia Coffee and today Kate Hollowitch, one of our fractional chief marketing officers, is joining me. And Kate is so good at thinking on her feet that we had put out a call for marketing questions and challenges and that's what we're diving in today. So, normally I'm like,
"Hey, Here's the topic." But actually Monica's going to be headlining this one on what the topic is because we don't know. So, I printed out the list of questions and I am super super excited. Now, I'm going to let you get to know Kate a little bit, but a little bit of context because we'll start with, you know, who she is since you've never met her before and this is the first time. So, welcome. >> Thank you. >> But I already told you she's a CMO, but She actually has a really interesting background in additional
in additionally because she has served as a COO. So, she's incredibly processoriented and has worked for a private equity company. So knows a lot about scale and looking at a business differently than how a lot of us have. So Kate, welcome. And I am so excited. This is going to be so fun because our conversations have a tendency to be like bing bing bing bing. So this was the perfect format for us. >> Yes. And you and I both talk fast. So >> Yeah. So slow down. Take it off of 1.2. This is not the
show. >> They have to listen to it at normal speed. For sure. For sure. >> Exactly. Okay. I gave a very thin overview, but why don't you tell everybody a little bit about your background? >> Oh, I have such a robust background. I've worked in most industries. Most I did a small stint in healthcare, higher Education, construction, agriculture, oil and gas, direct to consumer, CPG. I there's I can't even remember them all. There's been so many. Manufacturing of course. And throughout all of that, I think marketing has been the functional thread that has pulled through
it. I've always been in the marketing team, the marketing department, but the way that I process information, the things that I do, I like to think like a CFO or like a CEO that I like to understand the business from those perspectives as well because that makes me better at marketing. And so I did spend 11 years in organic CPG for a long time which was a really interesting mix because it was also a dairy cooperative. So there was a lot of the agra business side and 2,000 plus farmer owners to deal with not just
one owner. And then also had the consumer channel to go with that and the consumer brand marketing. So that was a Ton of fun. And then most recently the last six years were in private equity and really getting to think at that higher level board level executive seat and doing a lot of functional work with strategy and pulling strategy down to execution which is where a lot of that strategy falls off. >> Exactly. I think that's also why you and I aligned so well like from the get-go when we were introduced was taking that financial
and leadership point of view And zooming out and saying okay marketing is my toolkit and I'm looking at the whole landscape like not saying like okay this is my only area of impact but what's impacting all of growth and if I'm thinking from an aligned strategic position it expands your toolkit expands your ability to ask questions expand your ability to really get some synergy and momentum with other leaders in the company and I don't care where a good idea comes from as long as It's a good idea and it's strategically which I think is so
it's like where the magic >> comes from. I know and I think one of the one of the ways that I aligned with you when I first met you was that we both look at marketing as revenue generation not as a cost center. >> Yes. And that pivots the whole dynamic of where marketing fits in the whole organization in the strategy why we are well suited to be at the strategic table And helping shift the whole dynamic of the organization. >> Exactly. It was like something we were talking about earlier you know at the round
table that we were in is you can efficient your way to growth like like sure efficiency is good to what end? Because if you were prioritizing it, efficient ad spend, efficiency, deploying AI to make people cheaper or faster, >> is that actually going to drive growth? Because a lot of times we do see like the tail wagging the dog when we're trying to deploy efficiency mindsets to marketing and growth principles. >> Yeah. You can only operationalize your business to a certain point. >> Yes. >> And then there's no more pennies to cut. And at some
point, you have to then be accountable for growth. Yeah. >> And actually go towards the other side. >> Go Yeah. 100%. Go chase it >> 100%. Okay, so actually it's I love this like such so funny. Our first question is perfect. I loved it. The person had put in how should a CEO think differently about marketing today probably than they have in the past. >> It is kind of the answer we already just gave that >> it is the growth engine of your organization. It is not a cost center. It is not just an expense
on the P&L below the line. Marketing is above the Line. And we talked about this earlier in the round tables that when you think about the whole funnel from marketing all the way down to sales, sales is actually a really small portion of that whole system, but marketing is held accountable >> unfairly, unequitably to more of that process than sales is. Yes. But the vast majority of the budget and all of the other benefits and all the things that go with it are Attributed to sales. >> Yes. >> And it's actually and marketing will be
the first to get cut, but they'll never cut a salesperson. I'm totally stealing your words right at the moment. >> But 100%. Absolutely. >> That's what I think CEOs need to understand that marketing is accountable for a larger portion of that whole process >> and held unreasonably accountable for It. But we also understand the levers of the business more so and to a different degree than I would argue the sales team does. >> No, I completely agree with that. And it's funny saying that like makes me go I think marketing is the most underleveraged tool
in a CEO's kit right now than and is and than ever before. So if marketing is how do you influence people at scale and the and and and I think that's important like we need to Like I want CEOs to be like what is the definition of marketing and I want them to think like that. How do you influence groups of people at scale because yes groups of people need to be your net new customers. They also need to be your existing customers and your positioning on cross-ell and upsell. So then sales and marketing alignment.
How about future talent? Right? So, how do we influence like and position ourselves as the best employer, you know, and attract Aligned talent? But then whether you have a board, whether you have investors, if you're going to exit someday, like that influence mindset is such a big deal. And on top of that, >> I'm worried wondering what AI is going to do to culture. Let's play the doomsday scenario and say, "What if AI is gutting culture and kind of the boiled frog? It's happening without us watching or without realizing Is a better way to put
it." >> Well, what better place understands in your company how to deploy influence tools and communication at scale and yeah, maybe you should protect what you built and take those same, you know, pieces and turn them inward in additional. So, I think there's just so much that marketing has and we're not having the right conversations that allow like leadership teams to go, "Oh my gosh, we have boatloads of Opportunity in front of us and we just didn't name it." >> Right. And one tiny little nugget that you said about exiting and preparing for that exit,
your brand is an asset that can go on your your whole matrix. the IBIDA multiples. A lot of that is coming from the brand. >> Yes. >> And who owns the brand? It's not operations. >> No. No. >> So, who owns the brand? And if you're right, it's not HR. It's not sales either to be honest. It's marketing. Marketing has created the brand to find the brand. And we are accountable for integrating it into all aspects of the inside of the business and the outside of the business. And when you are getting ready to exit,
that brand is an asset on your balance sheet. And to your point, you know, when I think about the companies that have exit plans or when They're trying to attract recapitalization or, you know, other types of investor money, >> the number one thing I do is improve the brand. Now, if I am working with an entrepreneur that's trying to scale, I won't necessarily deploy brand first because I'm thinking pipeline, lead flow, optimizing, and I'm talking speed to revenue. But when we're talking speed to exit or speed to investor dollars, brand is first, >> right? But
even in that that that more startup or you're using the speed to revenue, but there is an aspect of brand awareness that you're still building on the side, but you just you're not attributing the revenue or the resources in a 50/50 split or even more so to the brand awareness, but you are still putting some element of your work in that in that bucket. >> So true. because it you have it takes a while to build up to a point where you Can measure brand awareness. So you've got to devote a little. >> And we
believe what we see. Like if you look mom and pop, I will not believe you that you're important and influential and interesting and trustworthy, >> right? >> Not in this year day and age, right? So how are you using AI in marketing? >> What are your favorite AI tools you're using currently? >> Are you scared of what AI is going to do To marketing in the future? No. No, not scared. Sorry, had to. But I do want to talk about that. >> I feel kind of like the CIO about this AI thing. I I geek
out about it and I feel like every time I turn around there's something new and I'm the I love just I'll try that or I'll see what that does. And I made a joke in one of our calls a couple of weeks ago that I just I spent a whole weekend rebuilding my empire in Claude. I got off of chat GPT Moved to Claude and I mean Claude was doing this co-work thing. Yeah, it it was worth it though. It's not like my empire was that big to move, but you know, I did it because
of the co-work clogged co-work. And then I realized, oh, I have to do it on my laptop and I was thinking, h, but sometimes I'm on a plane and I think of something and I want to just go in and go and then the answer's going to be there when I get back. So, I thought, okay, I'll figure That out. I'll I'll figure out how I navigate that. I think two days later Claude released dispatch >> that now as long as my laptop is I think it has to be like up and open. I don't
know but even if it doesn't I can at least put it into my regular chat stream and claude and it'll get picked up into co-work later and then it all kind of like marries together. It's fabulous. So we I use it for a lot of transactional processdriven elements. I believe that The part of AI that is never ever ever ever going to beat a human is critical thinking and human discernment. Never ever ever. >> And my clients are paying me for that. They're paying me for my judgment, >> my perception on it, my take on
it, my vast experience and wisdom applied to their situation or or whatever is happening. I will use it for brainstorming. I use it for small content generation on things that are Not, >> you know, it like the the barn's not burning down if I write 140 characters with AI every now and then, but I'm not using it for anything that has real meat or substance or value to the growth engine. And I definitely use it for spellchecking and things like that. Uh because, you know, we're all terrible spellers these days. So, it serves its purpose
for some of the marketing aspects, but it's really the processor Orientation. So I have it pull data from spreadsheets, not financial data, but lead generation spreadsheets or things like that and organize them in tiers of of hit these five potentials first, do these five next. These are your low levels. It'll write the highlevel subject lines or give me seven to choose from. So it's only as good as the prompt I'm giving it. If I say write me a subject line, it's going to give me a subject line. But if I say, "Give me 10 To
pick from," I never pick one as is. I like the first three words of number one, and I like the second three words of number two. And so, I'm still hodge podgeing them together based on that. But the time savings in the process, I think I was telling someone recently that one of the things I'm having it do now is scan all my receipts. Yeah. So when I go do anything for my business, I just take a picture of it and I just upload the photos to a file on my Desktop and Claude Cohort goes
in and pulls them all and categorizes them and dumps them into my Excel spreadsheet that goes off to my accountant >> and I'll have touch it and I don't honestly I don't even double check if it's right cuz that's what I pay the accountant for. So I'm you know we always are told to double check AI but I don't even have to do that. They have access to the photos and the spreadsheet and if something doesn't look right they Can go check it for me. But I've kind of removed all of that like expensing off
my plate. So it's very Yeah, it's very good for process. >> Like for me, you know, I I zoom out because of running the company, you know, to more of a broad perspective. All of you are way more fluid with your adoption. And so I have a tendency to steal everybody's ideas and then mimic and copy, which has been great. Yeah. Um, you know, I think I did an audit With Kyle the other day and we had something like 70 or 80 AI tools running across the team that we knew of. >> Yes. >> You
know, which was really interesting because everybody I mean every other week it's like have you guys tried this? Have you seen this? Has anybody used this? I mean today we were sharing like did you know it could do this? like what are the implic imp implications of what it's going to do you know to web Browsers or to you know WordPress and all this and so so we're trying and testing everything I think like when I zoom out the ones that were really focused on >> I think we're realizing about like the the difference between
effectiveness and efficiency and also creativity yes versus quality right you know so I think I'm watching And I think we're having a lot of really healthy conversations about exactly what you said like what AI Cannot replace. So I'm really actually excited about that because the more we talk about what AI cannot replace, weirdly we get better and deeper in it because you you know and I'm seeing that with the team where they're owning you know I mean like Monica's a great example where she won't finish anything in AI like AI is never the end product
because she's like well if it is then why am I here right? And then it, you know, it adds this whole layer of nuance And thoughtfulness and human touch. You just said it with your content and even your thought leadership or thought partnership, excuse me. And I'm the same. No content starts or ends. I will use it for contrarian. But here's what I realized. The few times I'm like lazy or tired and I'm like I'm just dump dumping notes and transcripts in like tell me what I thought about this. I will read it back and
I'm like >> no, I do not think that about that. like That's absolutely because it'll start adding and I'm like no and that's kind of funny to see me be like >> you don't know anything about marketing you know what I mean but it's been >> interesting to sharpen like I feel like it's sharpening my perspective on marketing to watch something spit things out and assumptions out and what it's aggregating from >> the the massive mediocrity >> yes something else I noticed today we Played that game today with the drawing and somebody was giving us
directions and she said the word supine. >> Yeah. >> AI is never going to give us that word. >> It's a really good point. >> Never going to give us that word. So depending on the client and the writing and the language and you and I are both public speakers. When we're writing a keynote, >> a word like supine would maybe make its Way into a keynote depending on the context. But if you just ask AI to write your keynote, it's just going to it's never going to give you that word that invokes an instantaneous
>> sensation, good or bad, that the the depth of the vocabulary that humans have is never going to come out through AI. >> 100%. So, and like that brings me back to kind of like zooming out. So when I think about what tool, what are our favorite tools, how are we using AI, We're using so much. I can't even I I literally like by the time this goes live. >> The only one I could think to mention. >> Well, that's the thing. By the time this goes live, the list will have changed. So I'm like
I'm sorry you guys. I'm not posting the list cuz you'll laugh at me by the like a month from now. Yes. >> Trends. We're deep in the SEO GEO. So for any of you guys that are not sure like from a marketing jargon semantic SEO search engine optimization which most of us are familiar with GEO generative engine optimization so where is the future of web browsers go and how do you both deploy content for machines as well as for humans and how's influence changing so just that alone we are deep in the SEO GEO transition
and paying very close attention we're deep into reassessing buying behavior for our prospects, but More importantly for our clients prospects and breaking core assumptions about what are people buying now. And I think everything else arounds the efficiency and are we deploying tools? Are we deploying AI is kind of like duh. >> Yes, >> obviously. Obviously, obviously we're doing it. So, I mean, I I hope that did not come across like so snotty on this podcast, but we're very tech and innovation forward, and I'm super Interested to have seen how the team as an aggregate is
zooming on pattern recognition, on trend spotting, on impact, and like even I'm going to frame it as ethical deployment, but it's not really ethics, but it is highest and best use, right? Like what should be owned by humans? Why does that matter? M >> and then everything else, whatever. Give it to you. Who cares? >> Yeah. Exactly. Like stop stressing out if if AI is sorting your emails. Like Just let it do it. Whatever. >> Yeah. Exactly. And you know and so that's why earlier I was like no I'm not scared of what AI is
going to do to marketing because >> the number one rule remains if you are questioning how will I reach my target marketing remains. >> Period. strategic marketing and inputs are hard. Like anybody that's using complicated network of tools, >> they just not give you what you want Just because you tried a new tool. So inputs are really hard and so a human has to own the inputs has to be contrarian around the outputs and there's and while we don't know the definition of quality checking agentic AI, >> we're going to constantly be thinking about that
question which is the strategic human point of view. >> Yes. And I'll I would love to say something contrarian right at the Moment. Actually, I think that I' I've had a lot of clients that think their product is literally the only widget ever created ever, even though there's 20 of them out there that do exactly the same thing. And they're it's their baby. But they will also be the first people that say, "But I can just give all of my marketing to AI." >> Yeah. >> Really? But you those two truths cannot be the same.
Like there's an example of Two truths cannot be the same at the same time because you cannot on one hand think that your product is God's gift to man or other businesses and think that you can hand all of your marketing of said God's gift to AI >> because AI is going to slop it and it's going to generalize it and it's going to leave things out and all of the things. And so the human discernment of marketing on this amazing God's gifts widget that you made needs to be in the Hands of humans. Yeah.
AI is tools, efficiency. Yes. >> Somebody needs to steward your reputation, your innovation, your point of view, and that's marketing leaders, marketing strategists, 100%. I love it. >> Okay, we're gonna go in a super different direction if you're ready. >> Okay, I'm ready. What's a client red flag you ignored and regretted? >> Okay, this is kind of silly, but I have a very for some of my personal Consulting work, I have a very narrow ICP, ideal customer profile. >> Yeah. >> And I've always believed that it I I I've challenged myself to let go of
the scarcity mindset that if I narrow down into a target, I'm leaving opportunity behind. And that is true. But every time I've mathed it out, there's more than enough business to be had in what is remaining of this very tiny ICP that I've created for myself. And so I at one point took on a client that was just slightly below the criteria in only one category. So they checked the box in like nine of the 10 >> criteria that I set for myself of this is the ideal type of client I'm going after. And it
was the revenue one. They were >> slightly >> maybe 5 million below >> what you would >> what my minimum was. >> Nightmare. >> Okay. What do you think the difference like why did the revenue like what did you end up seeing where you're like that's what it represented >> on the surface right off the bat couldn't afford me. Like that was the first layer of the red flag was being just that far below. >> Yeah. I was just slightly too expensive for what they were thinking a fractional type CMO strategy consultant they were Willing
to pay for. We also know you get what you pay for. So there's this concept of they also might have been slightly then too small for the way I think and what I provide because the visions and the the the strategist in me that was providing this here's what I see here's what I'm looking at here's what I think you should do with your business they they could kind of sort of grasp it but on the other hand it really freaked them out. I think readiness is a Really important thing, you know, and you can
apply that to everything we've been talking about so far, but I >> that's so interesting. One other thing that comes to mind, it's kind of like a funny comparison, >> but you know, from a marketing strategy, you go, oh, okay, pricing is an indication of value. Cool, right? If you drive big value, you need to have bigger price tags because it communicates better than a billion words like what You're capable of and that other people pay that. So it's like oh it also predicts expectations. >> Yeah. >> So if that is a large percentage from
for them compared to a healthy percentage for a larger company it's it adjusts expectations and sometimes to an unrealistic level. So >> yes >> years ago you know I do not like to have car payments right? So I used to drive This cute old little Volkswagen Pat and I freaking loved this car. At one point in time in Texas, it had like the AC went out and I still love this car because you know what my expectations were? None. Because it was paid for and it got me to point A to point B and my
drive time was short enough that it didn't really mess up my hair or my makeup or mess up my my not enough to get too sweaty. >> No, 100%. Because that was like, oh, Financial freedom and progress to me. So, like my expectations around that pat. Fast forward a couple years, things have gone good and I actually got to buy my first luxury vehicle. It was a Mercedes. Everything about this car pissed me off. And let me tell you, >> right, >> it was amazing. It drove like a dream. So cute. Convertible. Can't even stand
it. Like the car was decadent. But my expectations because it was my first Experience of a luxury vehicle and that price tag represented so much to me since I did not come from a lot of money >> that I was constantly like you snotty little pain in the butt >> and I was literally mad at my car all the time. The weird noises that it made like the >> my fingernails do not fit around this little thing. I mean button it was the wrong spot. Yes, it was every little thing like, well, if I would
have Designed this car, it would have been here. Like, oh my gosh. But I think >> I think that match when you're talking about ICP, >> the psychological pathways have a lot of cascading repercussions, >> especially when we get predictably irrational. >> Yes. Yes. And I think that they had a lot of opportunity, that particular client had a lot of opportunity to get to the thing that we were identifying For them, but there was just it was just too big of a mindset shift for the CEO, the executive team, and the employees to figure out,
but how are we going to get from where we are now to there? Yeah, >> they wanted it like they wanted the luxury car. they wanted it but could not could not construct the pieces in between. And even when you as part of that that consulting you lay out, okay, but in year one we're going to do this and in year two we're going to do this. They couldn't because by 6 months into year one the execution was out the window because they were reverting back to safety and bad habits. >> 100% 100% >> because
it required that they had to let go of sacred cows. They had to let go of clients that they had no business serving. Yeah. That trickle down. They're they were serving a portion of their ICP that was not a perfect match either and could not let go of them. Couldn't just fire those clients >> because they that that gap was too big. So that was kind of my first red flag of I ignored it because I thought it was going to be okay. >> I thought like the 8020 rule, well, they hit more than 80%
>> of my criteria. It'll be fine. It's never fine. >> Okay, on that note for red flags, I've got two quick ones. One of them, oh yeah, we've got brand guidelines. I Mean, we haven't looked at them in a couple years, but yeah, it's fine. It's fine. And we don't really care about brand has turned out to never ever ever have been true in the history of the world that people do not care what the visual representation of their company is. So right >> that that red flag. No, no, we do not believe people that
they do not care what things things look like. So I've had to really and we still we still Struggle with this when a client wants to go fast and we know they're asking for something that's going to >> slow down and create a lot of friction like how to help people >> understand what we know is coming. So the brand one that was like a big red flag that I'm like oh don't believe them when they say that. And then I mean it shows up in weird places too. Like no I don't care what the
social media looks like. Like we're just excited to get it Going and it's it always comes back around as a brand conversation. >> Then the second one is and this is so funny cuz like I used to use this phrase with my kids when I was raising my boys like all the time like I would tell them all the time people tell on themselves. >> You just have to be curious about what they're telling you, right? But if you see something or hear something that makes you go, that's a weird little thing to throw in
there. >> No, no, no. Stop on that. Stop on that. >> Yes. >> And what it helped me do, and I'll give you the example, like is it it helped me to slow down and ask deeper, more diligent questions in the moment and to start recognizing like that little huh like super early. So, for instance, like we had this one client, we're having this strategic conversation. I was not their CMO, so I'm kind of checking in with them and they're like, "We love What you're doing." Like all this glowing stuff. They were in a little
bit of financial stress, but they were about to come out of it and it was partially due to our work. So, we're having this really positive conversation, you know, and he's brainstorming about so excited what we're going to do next with you guys, all this other stuff. And he flippantly said something about what he had seen on social media about his CMO. and it was The CMO had posted something about a different client and he was like I mean they must and it was kind of like they must be getting a lot of attention or
something like that and I remember being like oh and I was like yeah I mean it was just that one scenario and I remember like the pause in my brain where I was like why wonder why he's bringing this up you know because it was so small >> in regards to like my understanding of Things >> hinds you know we end up losing that client despite an amazing scorecard and we lost him like less than a couple months later. And I look back on that conversation and I'm like he was telling me he was losing
confidence in whether or not he was getting the attention. And like whatever that little thing was, he was trying to tell me >> a fear that he had and I didn't hear it until it was too late. And so like while It's not perfect like from an account management standpoint and even a checkin and and even like kind of like a human maturity standpoint like a relational point where you go >> what is really going on the context of the conversation the context it's really hard to do when you're high efficiency fastmoving fast talker. >>
Yes. you know, to go, okay, wait, that fell out of left field and there's no reason >> that you would have just randomly thrown something in for nothing, you know, and so it's like those little things where you wish so bad you would have seen it, but you didn't, >> right? And honestly, now that you say that, it's something that I think >> kind of sneaks through the cracks in the sales force. They go into various parts of the process with a defined agenda. Yeah, I am going to ask them questions or Here's my agenda
and I'm going to show you this PowerPoint deck and we're going to do all the things and the potential client, the potential customer will do what you just described. They'll say a thing that is indicative or preempting or futuristically showcasing something that they're afraid of, that they're concerned about, whatever their particular burning platform is or their pain point. But the sales folks sometimes just kind of like, I'm going To just keep going through. Great. And they go right back to slide three where they left off in the deck and they just keep plowing through it
>> instead of feeling empowered to stop and say, tell me more. >> Yeah. >> Tell me more about that. >> No, that's so interesting. Why did you bring it up? Like, okay, tell me a little bit about that. What did you see? How'd that feel? You know, and obviously Not those exact words, but >> Yeah. Oh, I love that. >> Because there's something in there. >> That's such a good application. And you're right. That's so common. Yeah. >> Oh, so good. >> I think sometimes I do it, too. You're right. The fast talker, fast thinker.
Yep. >> I've already moved like four chess moves down and and I So, I am guilty of that. So I can say that that people skip that part because I do it as well because I get like woo I'm follow I'm going on my thing. >> Exactly. 100%. 100%. >> Okay. Oh, this is interesting. So it sounds like this is written from a marketing manager and he or she said, "I can't get my leadership team to buy into the plan and budget I'm recommending and I don't know what to do. They keep changing campaigns to
technical content And I feel like they are asking for the wrong things, but I can't get them to hear me. Any advice? I know that's hard to answer without the context. Okay, but maybe the questions that come to mind for you might be helpful. >> Well, I'm going to have to make it a generic answer and people are going to have to just try to >> and what they mean by technical. I mean, there's so much I could pick >> 100%. Well, so we're showing one part of The problem. Ask more questions. So, always ask
more questions. Curiosity, curiosity, curiosity wins the day. Another thing AI cannot replace is that ability to hear something or see something, then ask a follow-up question. So, go back and ask more questions. And they're usually why why and keep asking because they have a belief buried in there somewhere about what they think you should be doing and where these pivots are coming from. And So you have to figure that out because also 100% >> if they don't know enough about marketing and I don't mean that in an offense but their job is a technical job
or whatever not marketing >> but they are trying much like the red flag you mentioned with that client they are trying to tell you something. So, there is something happening in their brain that they either think you're not doing or think we should be doing Differently or a point they're trying to make and they're using this method, this vehicle, this boat to get it in front of you. Yes. >> So, ask more questions to try to figure out what that is. >> Then the other side of that issue is that my favorite question of all
time is a two-part question. When that exact scenario happens to me, the first thing I ask is to what end? >> Yeah. >> And my meaning behind that is tell me how this links to our strategy. >> Yes. >> Our company, our department, whatever version of it you want to use, said we are going to be doing X over the next whatever. >> Yes. >> To what end does what you just asked me to do ladder up to what part of that overarching strategy? You're not saying no. that has officially gotten you out Of the
the situation where you have to tell a internal customer no. >> Yes. >> Because you're forcing them to justify the business case by they don't have to write a business case but just verbally they have to justify to you why that pivot makes business sense. >> Completely agree with you. And if and then the second part is once they do that and if it is a if it is a an acceptable answer and it does tie to Something then your next question is and what should I stop doing in order to do that because everything
has an opportunity cost. So, if my plate was 40 hours a week and I am full today and you just threw a squirrel at me, you're either justifying real or not real overtime, me doing more than what the company has budgeted for, or something has to come off and you're willing to let that go in favor of this new thought, new idea, new concept. But Same thing, you have not said no. You're putting the burden back on them of prove to me that this is worth my time and then tell me what is not worth
my time. I love it. Something that comes up for me when I'm listening to you is I'm curious if there's an accidental defensive posture here. Meaning like you're trying to defend your plan point of view and what you're advocating for is an open conversation where your ability to just be curious about what Are they saying to you lands you in a unified posture together. Like, okay, tell me what that looks like. And also from a practical standpoint, what do I stop doing where now you're problem solving together on both sides, you know, of the start
and stop. So, I really love that because I do think it it forces somebody to think differently about how they show up. >> I had a few questions slash like kind of more tactical things when I'm like Thinking about this scenario because I'm like, "Oh god, as a marketer, we have all been there if you've been in this game for long enough." Oh, this position. And I'm like I could feel my chest being like I know exactly what this feels like. So one of them immediately I'm like I wonder if the words that this marketer
is using mean the same thing as the people that are listening to it or like if they're using words that have emotional resonance or Strategic alignment, right? Like impressions versus leads or marketing qualified lead versus salesqualified lead. You know what I mean? Like those weird little things can be so dangerous. And it's the same advice that you just gave, you know, where it's like what do you mean by that or you know the questions. So that comes up to me like be careful of your semantics and do you have aligned definitions >> that Yeah. Oh,
that is so good. I I love That you said that because I have been in that scenario where on Monday the definition of a marketing qualified lead was X and on Tuesday the goalpost shifted >> 100%. when that you know when the when the blame then goes on the other side of the line the other side of the line shifts the gold back. >> It's so funny you were literally reading my mind. The very next one I wrote down was agreements. >> Right. >> Have there been any agreements with the leadership team that you're talking
about? Yes. >> And did you write them down? >> Right. Right. Right. So yes, I 100% and you don't have to be like but you said you know again like there's a very big difference to be like okay at our last conversation or >> or power move when you open >> you know a agenda mirroring back to them In our last conversation I'm looking at my meeting notes and here were our you know you had said this and this and this is important you know here's what I've been doing anything else but where you get
pre-agreement to agree that you did have an agreement. Ridiculous. No, I know. But it does. It's kind of ca, right? Because then even the postaggreement of thanks for a great meeting today. This was so helpful. Glad we're aligned on the MQL definition and The SQL definition. Here's how I captured it. Let me know what you think. You they and you have to keep nudging them until they reply back with, I agree. >> If it's not written down, it's not real. >> So, just because you sent it to them after the meeting does not also mean
they agree. >> Oh, yeah. I left you. Do not read their >> No. And you have to end with the call to action of let me know if you agree or Something. And if you don't get it, keep nagging until you have it. Because then what your tactic was also about, let me just recap. This is where we level set it. Are we still there? You now have all of this backup that is like, nope, that's where we agreed. We can move it. >> We can move it if we have to, but we both have
to agree and let's talk about why that needs to move. And it just removes all of the defensiveness and the tension from those conversations >> that >> like get up and go talk to people but just document it. >> I totally agree. So then the next part for me and actually we're kind of hinting at it. I just want to name it. So you know we deploy messaging choreography and thinking through and teach our clients like how to navigate the psychology of influence and decision-m while marketing usually is referring to one to many communication. It's
the same freaking thing in a oneto one or one to small group. And in our in my book corporate caffeine, you know, we outline messaging choreography and you can literally build a deck >> in that exact mirror teaches early alignment, early buyin, early understanding, early collaboration versus I've got a point of view. I'm trying to shove it down your throat. And then all of a sudden you feel backed against the wall because you worked so Hard in that point of view but they you didn't give them the space to receive it be curious and align
with >> add to it. People support what they helped to create. >> Yeah. >> And if you are going to like this is my marketing plan, this is my agenda. This is my campaign. This is my idea. >> Yeah. You may get a handful of your leadership team that's like okay cool. But if you leave space for what is your Thoughts? What is your advice? I need your help with this. I'd like your thinking on this. Am I using the right words? >> You've invited them into the creation of it and they're going to give
you way less headaches on the back end. >> Yes. And then I wrote down one other comment on something that you were saying earlier when you're talking about asking the right questions and strategic alignment. I would say don't be scared Of numbers. I think in every marketing person's journey, there's a point whether this is natural or not native to you and your personality and strengths where you have to decide, okay, I need to understand what's going on here and you dive into the numbers and you get really in it and it's so healthy. And if
you're not being given sales pipeline information, if you're not being given above the line information, you are set up for failure, you know, but you also Have to be curious and confident enough and develop a point of view where you do realize like I don't have all the information and so can I have a more strategic conversation around that? So, I mean what I what I like about this question and like I don't know like I don't know if this person's going to be listening being like you kidding me but like if I had to
give you an encouragement >> when you solve this this is a career Inflection point for you where you're literally sitting in the precipice of who you're about to be and the real value you can bring to an organization. So like weirdly this is so frustrating but on the other side of this frustration is your potential. >> Yes. and the way you were going to handle because I tell you what, that situation is never one and done. No, >> it's not like, oh, I'm having this here and then I hate this company and I'm Leaving anyway
and I'll never have to. No, >> it will follow you. >> It'll follow you and every all the time. >> So once you get through this and think, oh my gosh, document how you got through it because you're going to need that again >> and again and again and again and again. >> 100%. and just add like you know we just unlocked a lot but I mean we're also talking about decades of experience and Like tissue no you know but if you can if you can do that like win or learn >> okay that didn't
go exactly but this part of the meeting did go good what would I have do differently and conversations are never one and done either if you realize there's a part that you should have asked a better question go back >> go back and ask it >> like you're still employed there still Your leadership team they still have the same goals Yeah. >> Yeah. Like it's not a oneanddone. I think too often like we think >> actually it's not a bad idea to leave something purposely unasked. >> Yeah. >> And use that as a tactic as
part of that CYA effort of okay here's what I heard. Here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? You're sending it back. Also, I forgot to ask you. And then you throw in Another >> question and now you have even more content from that individual back as they try to help you understand. Yes. And you're now like I just got a crap ton of insight into Bob. Oh my gosh. 100%. We've got one about should I stop my PPC campaigns now that AI is around? >> No. >> And then another Exactly. >> Nope. >> Hell
no. >> And we're just not going to tell you our reasoning behind that. So contact one of us and we'll tell you. >> Okay. Because I'm literally trying to limit and our our list of answers on why that is insane is too long to cover. Actually, we probably need to do a panel discussion with the digital team. That would be fine. >> And go and just do a deep dive on this one because >> that's for another another episode of The podcast and you'll answer that one. >> Okay. I think is our final one for
today. This one's interesting because it's very different and it's cool because it's aligned with your background. From a private equity standpoint, how should portfolio companies approach marketing and this say B2B marketing to drive faster, more predictable growth and enterprise value? And it's a lot. It's a big question. And what are the biggest red flags you see When evaluating a company's marketing function? >> Oh my gosh, there's so much to that though because private equity is not all private equity is created equal. You've got private equity that is burn and churn. Nothing wrong with that. They
buy with the intention of getting as much profit out of it, getting rid of it in 5 years. There's private equity that buys and builds. They want to buy portfolio companies and keep them forever. You Know, those are kind of two different parts of it. But then there's also private equity that just invests and are not operational private equity. >> So, I have experience with operational private equity, but then even within operational private equity, you've got ones that run marketing and maybe other departments as shared services. I'm so glad you brought up shared services >>
and some that don't. So, you know, depending on where you are in that Ecosystem, you may or may not have any ability to influence it. But just at at an 80,000 foot view, if you are a portfolio company and you have some level of control over the marketing, whether you're using shared services or not, but you have some approval type authority over what your marketing function is, then your goal is to >> technically it's maximize IBIDA because it's multiples of IBIDA that are looked at as providing the value of said Portfolio company. It could also
be a net income. It could your private equity company could look at net income versus IBIDA. And your goal is to maximize that return to the investors. Usually, it's 12 to 15% return every year that they want. So your marketing function when we started this episode of talking about marketing as part of the growth system your job is to maximize your marketing to impact that growth which is going to ultimately impact either that ROI to the Shareholders the net income number or the EBA number. That's kind of my >> see what I mean that's kind
of my CFO marketing >> master course in 30 seconds. >> And you know what's cool about this is it makes your answers from earlier so much more important. So like strategic alignment is there strategic alignment because now we have a different definition because to your point now we are driving most likely IDA growth and So but then there's core assumptions around where is that coming from are there shifts in the business do we need to maximize different parts of the market or >> are there cross-ell and up there's so many nuanced answers when ibida is
the answer not growth where you can kind of go well maybe this maybe that you know where you can kind of broaden if you don't if you're not held accountable to that and so that Strategic alignment even more critical even more important to slow down ask questions and then scorecard now these are hard scorecards to build on the front end but even just starting with known and unknowns you know like how do you so >> but I don't think they're hard scorecards to build >> okay well I was thinking from a marketer standpoint but >>
no I don't think they are because again If let's let's use net income if net income is your ultimate measure in your particular private equity company. What's contributing to net income? >> And so revenue maybe, unless you're a commodity, but let's just use the small R revenue, not capital revenue, right? >> 100%. >> Small small R revenue. And then what's driving that? And it's some number. It's some metric. It's like >> deals closed. Yes. Whatever it is. >> And then what's the metric right above that? Let's say it's product demos. But then what's that percentage
close rate in between? So now if you know that your average deal size is a thousand and you know that the metric right right above it is supposed to be X. Yes. >> And you know that value and you know that close rate. You know the value of a demo. Yes. >> You can say every demo I'm making up the number and I don't do math in public. So Every demo is worth $500. >> Right. And then you just do that backwards all the way up to whatever your marketing vanity metrics are. And you can
actually place a penny, a dime, whatever it is, value on every impression you get to your website. So you start at the bottom and you work your way up. And that is your scorecard. Every single one of those little layers is the scorecard. And you're measuring them. And the math has got to work going Down and it's got to work going back up back up. And that also gives you where the thing is broken. So all of a sudden when these two metrics aren't in alignment anymore or wow they used to be 10% of each
other and now they're 5% of each other. Red flag like stop and think about what you just did. Did you just tweak pay-per-click? Did you just miss a month of posting on social, whatever the thing was. And you can now start to diagnose what part of your marketing System broke because every single one of these metrics that are in your scorecard are actually connected to each other. Well, I think you just nailed the heart of the question because you know when how do we evaluate a company's marketing function? It starts there because if there is
a clear scorecard with definable value, meaning agreed upon, we all understand what $500 of value, >> you know, then it's a very straightforward how do I evaluate? No, You can bring in people to find out other optimization places, you know, but now you're starting to think a little more strategically, but that should already be there. So then step one is how do you evaluate? You need to build that out. Yeah. And then there are knowns and unknowns like can we find the values? Okay. Where does it break? Where do we not have information? You know
that kind of thing. But you're right like it really especially from a private Equity value scalable repeatable growth engine. We are talking numbers. And I am telling you from a marketing perspective if you as the marketing person go into your private equity powers that be CFO. Yeah. with that explanation that I just gave, they are never going to look at you as the person who makes things look pretty. >> No. >> Ever again. >> 100%. 100%. >> And now you have that is actually the trick to moving marketing from a cost center to a revenue
generator. >> Well, and we've had three companies exit early in the past year. So exciting. And we already talked about the importance of brand. We had deployed brand very aggressively for them. But we documented this from day one. And so then we had a data narrative where they could see before marketing and marketing system. And there's going to be some people that Are going to argue, oh, you have to have two or three years of data and proof when because we're still with all three of those companies. We're just now at the private equity side.
Like when that private equity realizes that was 100% transferable value, they don't turn that system off. >> Correct. Correct. >> Yeah. I think Yes. Okay. statistically what seven years of data but I mean >> if you're seeing that pattern and it's Only variation in the two or three years that you do have is what one 2% you're probably >> you're probably on the plus you can trend it out because I know private equity firms are trending out the revenue on the other side. So you just trend out the same process to that marketing matrix scorecard
that you just built and it should it should >> correlate% if it doesn't then you would know ahead Of time that okay some part of the metric or the funnel that I made is not right and then you just fix it till it till it is >> exactly yeah I love it. Yeah. >> All right. I think that's as much soap boxes as we're allowed to cover today. >> We're so good at our soap box. I love it. Well, you guys, thank you. Thank you to those of you that sent your questions in. We love
this. Hopefully, you got a lot out. If you are like, "Wait, wait, Wait." Please pause. DM us. Reach out to us at the marketingblender.com. Hit us up in the comments. Normally, your comments and your feedback is what we are creating content based on. So, we're not randomly picking these topics. So, please let us know how we can go deeper. We do have some other questions. So, if you did not get your question answered and you did submit, we'll come back to it. And thank you so much. And the one thing I want to bring back
around, we Talked about a lot of strategy, but in this massive time of change, and we're on the precipice of the age of AI. There are things that AI cannot and will not replace. And guess what? They're the most human aspects of you as an individual, your heart, your culture, the parts of the business that you love the most. So, we don't have to be scared, but we do have to have a voice in the things that you want to protect. And that's why these conversations are So so important so that you feel empowered and
excited about the future because technology is bringing out the best in us as humans and not just us feeling like we're at the mercy of this massive change and movement that we're not sure about how we feel about it. So join us in optimism, right? And we'll see you next week onward and upward.
