A Human Classical Pianist Composing With AI

When you see these companies being sued by the major labels I mean the major labels already are making millions of dollars it's the independent up upand cominging artists that need to be cared for I think and and somehow it's always the big guys making these things like the you know the fuss about it so and and um and for me for example like the way that AI benefited my career was insanely amazing that I just wouldn't Want anything to hurt these companies in a way because they have provided me a new source of um well

first of all this new project that I'm working on and and and in a way like I uh I am able to now generate new repertoire that was never written for the piano and actually play them on [Music] stage what's going on welcome to the new music business I'm your host Ari hurand author of how to make it in the new Music business the book Third Edition is out now everywhere all for hard cover ebook audiobook however you like to consume books you can find the book today my guest is Aisha Denise and she is

a classical pianist an incredible classical piano piano player uh she's performed all over the world most famously most recently at the Walt Disney Music Hall in Los Angeles she has also won the best contemporary classical composition at the Hollywood independent Music Awards what we talk about today actually we we we talk a little bit about the classical music industry at the start and kind of her upbringing and background but the second half of this interview is where we really get into the AI discussion and how she has used Ai and and let's just take a

listen to one of her co-composition with AI and herself [Music] [Applause] [Music] so that was a piece called Equinox 3050 and uh if you're watching this on YouTube you can see how how she kind of uses a lot of these AI programs from uh visual programs to of course the the audio programs this is a co-composition but we talk about you know she has this project called uh classical regenerated where she's using these music generation programs specifically udio and andso to create classical piano pieces that are Inspired by or influenced by or in the style

of I should say kind of showen and and Bach and Vivaldi and Mozart and she talks about how she does this uh specifically how she gets into it why she's citing it how she's doing it but the thing is is that's kind of setting her apart from everybody else using these Technologies right now is that she is a classically trained masterful professional piano player she is playing all of this so whenever You're hearing this music what we just heard and what you're going to hear throughout because we we play some of her some of her

works that's her actually playing the piano that is a real human being that is her playing the piano she's she's a uh incredible pianist that being said we we all know this technology can generate incredible music and she talks about these compositions that that the AI is creating and how there is an emotional Component to it and towards the end I I really encourage you to to stick around to the very very end I know this was a slightly longer episode than than we're used to but that's because we really got into it and uh

we have different opinions on the ethics of AI and and some of these AI platforms and how they are training their models how they should be or shouldn't be licensing the music that they're using to train their models and what these these programs can Be used for and how they can be used I find a very fascinating um her take on this so I would encourage you to stick around to the very end where we really really get into it and I I know there's going to be a lot of you that are going to

disagree especially if there's anyone from the major Publishers or major labels listening to this today because they're the ones that are actually suing these these programs that that she's using that we're talking about but as an Independent musician as an independent composer classical musician a real human musician I would argue that her opinion matters uh even if the major labels and the major Publishers vehemently disagree with it and there's a reason that they disagree with it and we talk about it so uh very fascinating conversation this is the first time that I have ever had

a classical musician exclusively classical musician on the show and really one of the first times that we've we've this Deep into the AI Music Creation discussion with an independent artist who's actually using it to create and perform and she's performing these creations on on uh quite quite big stages she performed and gave a talk at cogx which uh I would encourage you to look this up this cogx performance and and discussion where she she encourages the audience to vote on which piece was a human composition which piece was a showan composition And which piece was

the AI composition and it's it's really interesting she will be speaking at many more Tech conferences and in much bigger stages in the near future so so follow her wherever you follow artist it's Aisha Denise we will link to her in the show notes and you can find her on Facebook uh where she's built up her largest audience on YouTube on Instagram on Tik Tok on all the platforms uh you can find all of us that make the show happen at AR take on Instagram Tik Tok of course YouTube threads X all of that stuff

right now if you could pause this episode and leave us a festar review however you're listening to this on Spotify Apple podcast uh give us a thumbs up on YouTube hit the Subscribe button uh follow button if you want this show to populate your feed but right now pause this visit AR take.com sign up on the email list get on the email list that's how we can stay in touch and That's where you'll get uh all the updates on the new music business all right let's kick into the show Aisha Denise welcome to the show

thank you for having me um so you are officially the first classical musician that I have ever had on uh the show in over 150 episodes four years running this thing so uh I I guess that's a failure on my part for not having more classical musicians but I'm honored that it's you so uh thank you for for for Being that for for uh forging into these Waters that we've normally just laid within like this the Contemporary pop music industry and now now I I'm I'm so happy to talk a little bit classical you know

I was classically trained I'm a classically trained trumpet player and so like I I yeah I mean not not too many people know that because I don't I don't really play much anymore but I I did study it for a couple years in college back in the day but anyway it's nice to Nice to see you nice to have you on the show thank you that is crazy that I'm the first one I guess it you know it's normal takes a while for us to get out there yeah well and I guess and this is

where maybe we can start and maybe you can like help me understand because like I've always found that the contemporary music industry operates so like so far outside of maybe what the classical music industry functions as Like you have endowments and there are grants and there's like I don't even there's unions that people are actually part of that actually do stuff for the musicians which like in like you know in the the the new music business or whatever we call it in like the Contemporary the pop music industry you know the ones that's uh that

that you know we're always talking about here at least on this show and like you know variety and billboard and all of that Like it's a very different industry so I mean you've been a classic musician for a long time your whole life and and a professional one now for a while maybe just break down just how the classical music industry works from your perspective and your Vantage Point or maybe how you've worked in in it uh you know we'll get to all of the the cool AI stuff that you're doing in a in a

minute but I I'm really curious just in general because I honestly have no idea how the Classical music industry Works uh so yeah help me understand yeah well there's many ways um the most obvious one is a lot of people who graduate just end up teaching so that's like the their income um and and um and that is maybe 95 maybe 90% of my friends are doing that and then some of them who quit and found other jobs um or studied like in special you know got a specialty in like law or something um and

then there is um there is this like um like performing Career but that actually is such a low percentage I got to say like if it is for an orchestra that's much much uh more of a feasible job so if you play like a string instrument or a brass instrument or like whatever Woodwinds um you can join an orchestra you you know you go to the auditions and if they you're good then they will take you in like uh mostly as like a full-time or or a part-time uh player I don't really know too much

about it because I'm you Know I'm a solo pianist uh and all my life I had to actually be kind of like a startup um so it is very different than what other people uh have chosen um despite having some actually like a lot of experience in teaching that's not what I was um dreaming of doing when I was studying uh piano so I thought that um I would be happier um on stage first of all because I love like playing and and uh uh and and also traveling around the world for it and and

also um I got Into composing so that's a whole other world too where you know there's a lot of um opportunities when you compose music for uh TV uh movies or advertisements um but that goes into more of like the skill set you have so if you're really good with computers um then you can really uh produce music uh and and a lot of the uh you know the music that you hear in um TV shows uh or or films I mean aside from really big budget ones um they're Usually made on the computer like

with sample libraries so um so you don't even need to know how to play the instrument essentially you just need to know how to work the computer and the samples and you don't even necessarily need to even write down the notes so that is I mean you know there's a lot of aspects of what what it means to be a musician these days um does it mean you're good with computers it doesn't mean you play an amazing violin you know like like Like you know what I mean so it is like and there's yeah no

no you're absolutely right and not to cut you off is I I just saw um an artist I well I just saw um uh St Vincent at the Greek Theater uh last weekend and uh her first opener who's incredibly talented artist uh myam answerer she didn't have an instrument on stage like a real instrument for her opening set it was just her and like some you know P like she was doing some like live sampling live looping live Stuff but I want to say that might have been the first live performance maybe that I've ever

seen where there wasn't a physical instrument on stage other than maybe I guess like I guess DJs uh you know do that in like you know clubs and stuff like that but for but at like a at like a at like a venue a concert venue like that it was just fascinating to me but you're right I mean the definition of like what a musician is these days has dramatically Changed um these days now have you done much scoring or composing for film and TV is that part of so yeah that that is part of

uh why I moved to LA actually so um I was doing a lot of shows live live concerts around the world before the pandemic and then the pandemic hit and all my concerts got cancelled so um I moved back with my parents I was living in London at the time and then I um I was going in and out of La just to see whether I would want to live here uh but Phantom G and I got basically St stuck in a way um in in Turkey uh and and half of that time I was

in a forest chopping wood with like wild boes I mean it was kind of intense but um wait for real this is not like an analogy of something you literally were chopping wood with wild bores that's wild damn and and um yeah it was kind of hardcore uh and and during that time I was like you know I still had my fan Base online which was something that I had done and not a lot of musicians were working on like that's another divide I guess like with the Academia like the academic circles don't really or

didn't at the time care about social media or websites or anything and you would hear like an amazing musician on stage and they would have like a really bad even website like nothing on it or it was just poorly done and like they didn't have social media accounts and they Don't really post content and somehow like for me it was really important to keep in touch with people around the world who support me and listen to me I really really appreciate uh my followers and listeners and supporters um so uh somehow I had already invested

in that community so that I when when the pandemic hit I was like okay I still have access to to communicating with them right so I um and this was primarily over YouTube is that where Facebook actually Facebook um yeah so at this point I have over 250,000 um follow like fans on Facebook um and uh and that grew a lot in the pandemic so I started doing live streams and like just free concerts for them every day I did like 24 of them and then I got burnt out after but um during that time

I also created piano course um for beginners uh just to learn the piano from scratch um but also I um I was trying to make plans for what's going to Happen next like you know when everything is resolved like where am I going to live like what should my life look like and and I guess like in a way I was really depressed and I I was thinking maybe the Performing um maybe the performances would never even come back I don't know if you've ever lived through that kind of low state but I actually didn't

know what on Earth was happening like yeah you know whether we would get out of it or like like not Knowing is a really really tough thing to face and I'm sure a lot of people went through the same phase um and and so I was like I can't just rely on stages like performances because what if I don't have any other concerts so um and and I was I had started composing um some time before that although not for stage like it wasn't really something I thought I could do uh just because you know

being classically trained you can't really like you don't have the guts to Even show anybody your own compositions because the The Benchmark is so high that you're like I don't even want to like try because like you're you're playing like works of Betto and B MTI I mean like how could you ever even like you know it's almost like an insult you know like um and so I was like actually like in college I would write pop songs secretly in my dorm room like and I would never show those to anybody know it was my

guilty pleasure uh and And so um after after the pandemic I moved to LA and um there were a few reasons first of all um I I could move like I you know um for Visa I mean that's that that was like possible for me um because you know I have a Turkish passport and it's a it's been always like a uh I have a green card so um yeah it's it's like a long story uh but I didn't want to lose it and also I I always felt like um you know us has like

a lot of open minds and really it's like Whatever you do they say yes like it's it's like a yes world like right like this is where the dreams come true and like all all the opportunities are and and it's interesting that I was trying to make it on so I had so many followers already but a lot of companies I would want to Brand like partnership with they would be like where you base and as soon as they hear it's not the US they wouldn't want to cooperate with me um they wouldn't want to

send me Stu or They wouldn't it was interesting yeah um and um but as soon as I moved to LA like everybody was open to doing collaborations like it just was so much easier I don't know I mean there was even a Creator fund for Tik Tok you know that you can't access from other countries like everything like all these companies um they innovate in the US first and then maybe it reaches other countries so I think that's also very interesting um just because not Everywhere is clearly like in the world so that's that's a

sad truth um unfortunately um and so I was like okay well I want to really do some like scoring for TV and and film and I don't know how to even get started with this because it's so different than performing like the industry is totally different like you know I I have a brand and and like a name for performances but um nobody cares about that in the in the like film music industry or you know Like they care about whether you're a good composer and and whether you can can stick to the script or

you know all or all that stuff so um and um ironically as soon as I moved to LA I got uh an offer from a UK based company that does uh like that's the largest music production Library um they do live um live recordings like no samples ever used um really high quality recordings uh it's called audio Network and so they offered me to do uh to start like to Start albums for them uh for TV uh and so one is orchestral and so it's like piano and Orchestra like 22 piece String orchestra um and

then the other one is like a solo piano and um they essentially are selling my music at this point to TV shows so I get uh reports about where they have been featured and um recently I I learned uh my music was on love Island all right yeah so you know I get notified afterwards uh but it's pretty awesome um yeah it's like I Think there's also obviously other ways so like you can work with directors or like on on like like you've composed for specific movies I haven't yet done that um I I think

I would only do that if I really care about the film and the director and I think it's like a meaningful like artistic project yeah yeah I mean there are uh you know quite a few well that that lane uh where the composers kind of work uh they're hired onto it TV show or a film or something Like that and they are the composer for the show and you know they work with uh the director and uh the music supervisors and the editors and it's kind of like you know for uh like let's say you

know an hour worth of of uh television maybe there's 32 minutes of scored music and then there's going to be like 17 minutes of like needle drop syn licensed Know music that the music supervisor does and the composer like you said yeah I've sat in some of these Um rooms where a composer is kind of working they they usually have just like a you know a keyboard there that's like midi and then they program everything it's just them and maybe maybe they'll bring in if they need like you know some acoustic instruments here and there

but mostly everything is pretty much like you said programmed and samples and all of that and then they're they're you know the the the screen is right up there and the scene is there and they're Actually playing directly to uh you know if it's like a chase scene you know they got to kind of work with the tempo of the scene um and kind of work that so um yeah that is a so is that something that like in that capacity where you're kind of hired on is that something that interests you is that kind

of what what you initially thinking about no I mean um initially yes I was and and then I met with a lot of proposers and they were like I mean they gave me Interesting uh feedback uh because their complaints were that they are basically abiding uh or like obeying rules of whatever they were told so let's say they do a chase scene and then they come back and they're like oh we don't like it or like rewrite it or or um make it slower make it faster it's it's basically like um someone else has the

artistic upper hand and you have to be secondary uh so you don't really have that artistic Freedom unless you have a Very big brand I think in the name sure um and so I think um and also for for copyright like I I actually write music for myself to play on stage so if you think of like um in terms of dreams and goals like I would be like I would rather be like Ludi but a virtuo version of him like where I play my own music on stage and I don't have issues like like

with because because like let's say like you write music for a film and and um first of all you would Need a lot of rights to then perform it live because you can't just play like someone else's score like even if you've wrote it I don't I think there's some other rights around it where you need to have the per performance rights to it um and then um and then also let's say like I I score like a Netflix documentary or like Netflix series or something and I don't I can't just start touring uh under

that name you know it it is just not possible Uh and then also um um well you know like there's this like branding part uh for me where like I want to really compose music that I like and not that like that's not something that was ordered for me too right yeah that makes sense yeah yeah but but I I would love to do it if it's something I care about as I said so if I like the director if I like the topic and if it's like if it's piano based because I really care

about um piano obviously being a concert Pianist and and uh I just would love to work on something I I mean actually I'll tell you like one of my favorite uh documentaries is called the mountain and the soundtrack is amazing to that literally it's like it it's like this like beautiful cinematography uh and this is like a documentary not like the the movie but U so there's two I think or even three in the same name but um but this one it like opens up with like Australian chamber orchestra tuning and Then like the narration

starts and then there's amazing cinematography and then it like the music is a really important part of the script uh and and you even see it on the on the screen too so you know you see the music and you like it's a very direct communication between the audience you know so I would love to do that obviously yeah yeah I mean well yeah sure and that sounds great so let's talk about I mean I know with your original compositions and how you love Performing I saw that you performed uh a couple of them at

the Walt Disney Music Hall uh last year how did you do that how did that come to be um so it it's basically a lot of these things are not really planned I mean whatever has happened in my life it's really like something that comes out out of some opportunity and I say yes and and I and that's the frustrating part is like I don't have control over my future I feel like often you know because like like Right when I feel like oh my God like you know what am I going to do for

the next two months something comes out from somewhere but it's like something you could never the life of a musician right yeah and I think like just like being on that roller coaster was definitely a choice I made but then I wasn't always happy I mean it had a lot of challenges and lots of ups and downs and there was always a plan B for me uh which I never did yet yet like we'll see but um but The so I as I said I worked with audio Network so we recorded um for the first

time ever my compositions were recorded with an orchestra and that was like a huge opportunity for for me um and when I um then I had the scores obviously you can't just like you know you also have to be ready all the time so like that is one advice would give like any musician is like you have to have your ducks in a row so that when the opportunity comes you can actually say yes otherwise you Can't really like because these things happen so fast um so for the Disney Hall one it was like maybe

a couple weeks before I mean crazy like that yeah they um they had invited me to perform um as a solo like a solo pianist um to do a few repertoire with this um Orchestra called la and um it was ESS no it's with it's like Los I think it's like Los Angeles American and Korean um pharmony phon philarmonic Orchestra so it is like Um so um yeah and it's basically like a lot of Americans and Koreans in the in the orchestra from various other orchestras so they they get together every year and do this

like a large super big concert and um and for for I was asked to play uh as part of that um and and as I because I had this own like the repertoire that I had composed I was able to then tell the conductor hey like would you be okay if we played two of my pieces as well so because it was part of A bigger concert so there was like opera singers in the end there was like Ry ream really like you know amazing piece of uh music um and there were some um tributes

like Korean songs and it was like also uh it was like a friendship concert between um turkey and Korea because like we have like um some really great stories from the time where I think turkey sent um troops to support the Koreans um and so they even raised the Korean um orphan they they built an Or like a a school there all the like the Turkish soldiers and uh for orphaned um uh kids and then one of them grew up in turkey and there's a whole movie about it too but so I think there was

was this like friendship um and uh and when I yeah so I was able to then show show the conductor whether he would want to have two of my pieces aside from the rest of the repertoire and he was like yeah sure and then he he's like a really hardcore conductor very very classical And so like these compositions are for TV that I wrote and they're not as classical as as you would expect like it's kind of more for like soundtracks right and it's a little bit more um like they had to be like three

to four minutes each because that was the length of the the compositions I had to do for the album so I was a little afraid of um being looked down on then and then until the end of the concert I actually had no idea whether he likes my feces or not And then afterwards he was like my wife really likes your composition I'm like okay it was like like you know like the the classical uh people are really hardcore I I literally grew up with this like it's almost um I don't want to say like

some professors are like dictators in a way like I had I had a professor was amazing like a like a like someone we all admired but he was so hardcore I remember he would like go on stage like put his hand on your neck literally like Shake you and like like in front of everybody else and they like what do you think the compos are meant or like or like like Whiplash oh totally I mean Whiplash I think was supposed to be for classic and they accidentally made Jazz like I don't know totally like literally

in my life yeah so I'm very used to like adapting to all these because we there's so much respect that we have to these professors they're like really like almost like Profits in a way like for us like we really look look at them and they somehow make the music sing to you and it's like in such magical ways that it's really enlightening um I'm like yeah so you know I was very scared yeah yeah no no it's it's great I mean it's great to that went well and they enjoyed it uh now did you

score uh the like all the parts for the full Orchestra like you know all the violin Parts all the like every every Part you scored out so it's interesting so the way that so I'm a very classical person I would rather write down the scores first but the way that um these production libraries want is reversed they actually want to hear it first they don't want like notes on the paper so what did was to um to put them on the computer like play them over it like like what you were just exactly like saying

but I'm not really good with um with these uh production tools so um I Like the so I sent them basically what it would sound like but um but then then uh how can I say like I knew because there because we're not going to use those specific sounds um and because it's going to be recorded live I didn't want to spend too much time on actually like doing the the mockups like you know so there's like you know the mockups right so like you um you write I mean for your listeners I guess like

uh there's a process like many different Steps um so first you I don't know like you you play or record something and then you put layers and and you or like different layers of Orchestra and like strings and whatever is is that you want in there uh and then um you use uh using uh sorry you use like sample libraries like various um sounds of other orchestras potentially but um if if you are if you don't have access to a real Orchestra afterwards then you make sure these mockups are amazing that they just Use those

mockups in the end as if that's the real recording but there but that takes a long time to produce um right so and and just so I understand as you're doing this so uh your first you're scoring the piece in a scoring uh program like a SE or finale or something like that right or um so normally that's what I would do yes so so that's so what I do is I write the piano for first and then I also write the score of the piano first uh so both I play record the piano Or

I do it at the same time where I'm like composing it and then writing down the notes and then and then either I uh record it first or I uh do so that's that happens at the same time for me so I work on the composition uh with the score of the piano and the recording of of the media of the piano okay and then I tweak things around between the two and then when the piano is final um or or during that time if I have ideas then I start adding layers of other Instruments

on top so I added the strings and um yeah and when you add the strings are you just playing them how you hear them how you want them or are you actually going into the notation program and putting in the notes one by one or playing them in the notation program with a midi keyboard one by one and adjusting them so they're actually like playable by a real uh Real Player so because they wanted to hear it first I kind of drafted a basic thing on the Computer so that was like I was right I

was playing in or recording the parts of the strings on top of the piano first so there were no notes necessarily being generated for this you were just creating the no it was just the piano score that I had initially that was totally like totally um done uh and then because then I have to learn how to play it because I was recording and playing all the piano parts with it so it's it's most all actually not most all of my Music is piano um origin so everything I first hear for piano and then I

add um because I still want to be like the the center of like the piano has to be the center of attention and the rest of the instruments don't really even matter that much in a way um they're supporting yeah support it yes they do matter obviously but not in a way I mean you could change the parts and arrange it and still like the piece would still sound like the same piece so I mean and I I would love to talk about that too it's like um what composing actually means like is it because

I I go more towards the classic way of composing where you have the notes and the melody and the harmony already set that for me is composing um a lot of and and I think production is when you're adding and like VAR sounds like let's say sound effects or like you're CH but like for me that is not composing in a way like if you're creating sounds um I don't Proding I mean it's it's similar to it's similar to like pop songwriting and production and when you make like when you song Write uh that's the

composition it can be it's like when you play it on acoustic guitar and you sing the lyrics and the melody that's the song whether it's then produced out into a full production that goes on a record produced by Jack antinoff or whatever that like has all these sparkly things all over the place it doesn't matter Because the composition is the composition the song is the song and at its core it's words uh and Melodies but I guess for for your purposes at its core it's still going to be the same composition whether it's played on

the piano whether it's played on a harps of chord whether it's played on a guitar or you know whatever it is it's that it's it's the melody it's the it's the Haron you know Harmony of all that exactly but I mean I guess my point was that there Are so many other genres where they do think that's just composing if it's like just some some random sounds of like sound effects that are attached together so I just like I'm a little bit old school so well no I mean it's a good point because you know

there are producers out there especially in hipop and in pop where they will say if I create a production to this uh then I want 50% of the publishing of the composition because this wouldn't be What it is without you know that and so that is a debate I guess in the pop World tot um but but you know in classical it makes sense but I think you're right at its core you know what is a composition and I think it's like you know it's Melodies it's the the the chord changes in that order and

how the melody uh interacts with with uh the count Counterpoint and harmonies and and all of that yeah so Soh so after that I actually sent the the rough uh mixes Like mockups I guess um to the company and then once they approved it um there was a copywriter um and orchestrator that helped me from the team to then and then write the the parts for the string instruments because I had to then fly I literally finished these like a day before my flight to London yeah it was kind of intense because like you know

I'm doing so much at the same time a lot of like composers don't actually perform uh and for me I was literally like and I I want to maybe like Max this like the next couple years I want to have like 10 times more recordings and like really like Max it out and I need to delegate some of those things that I don't have time to do so they were really really great in helping me out with um actually then putting all the notes down to paper so that the orchestra could record them um and

then when I was there I kind of fixed uh fixed what needs to be done um at the in the recordings uh and then I Was I was like playing obviously as well right um and then there was like a whole Orchestra with a with a conductor and there super nice and it was like a really VIP experience I got to say I had like assistants I had like nine people like checking on the work it was amazing yeah they even taped my scores all right it never happens yeah yeah right well yeah you get

to the Walt Disney Music Hall and right there it's uh that's nice a level of standard um Cool so um I I want to uh talk about kind of now what you've been doing in in uh the a realm in the sphere it's fascinating you have this um classical regenerated uh project where you're reimagining um chopan and Vivaldi and uh Mozart and Bach and and these these Legends of classical music that um so so tell me about this this this um this project that that you're doing and how this all Works yeah so um this

is kind of an interesting thing like I don't know like I don't really believe in callings in a way but but then I do have strong um opinions on certain things and and and and somehow for a long I mean since I ever ex since I was born um I always wanted to kind of um spread the music like The the classical Legends um and and communicate I guess like I let's let's go back to my childhood like I grew up in a place where like there I Was the only musician essentially like I didn't

have any friends who were musicians um and I didn't have anybody to relate to or communicate with um they were all listening to like rock music and and and um and I I thought that that was the fault of the classical performers because it was such a like they just performed in such boring ways I have to say like I would fall asleep when I was a kid like going to these concerts because you would see like the Orchestra members really hating their job like they're just like as if nine to five workers like it's

just there was no passion you know and and also the performers wouldn't even say a word to the audience and they would just bow play and leave and there was no communication and I just really was like why is it does it have to be that way and and then when I started reading about all these back in the time that was not at all the case I mean these These composer were like rock stars like Mozart Boven um France list especially like he literally was one of the first rock stars in music history so

I was like trying to change that somehow and so for a while it's so crazy that um a friend of mine had gifted me the bust of beopen and and I had opened an account on Instagram for him but like written as b b a e toen like B like right right you know and then and then I would take him everywhere and then I would imagine as If he's like alive basically and I would take his photos so like I would create like fiction fictional but like based on on facts uh like historic facts

like fictional um comments about him like I would I would create stories around him like he would as if he just came back it's fanfiction it's like uh fanfiction for Beethoven that's great maybe you're the first Beethoven fanfiction that's ever existed cute okay I was a nerd honestly and so you know I would take Around in like Hollywood or like on the airplanes and we go to exhibitions and he would make comments that scene in amaly where they where they put the where they take the gnome everywhere that they travel and stuff yeah that's cute

okay nice and so it was always in me to make it accessible like make classical music accessible somehow because I felt like people didn't give it a chance and I always had hard time relating to my age group and they would Never want to even go to concerts like their their parents or their grandparents would for them when I because I started with playing when I was like nine um and so I just remember like uh how they thought classical music was boring or it was like for sleep or I was just so so so

wrong I mean you can find like much more hardcore music in classical than like Metallica for or Nirvana like if you listen to some Poff or Shostakovich or even Zenus um and so I think um I was trying to kind of you know educate people in a way that is entertaining but also like something that is very deep in my heart um and and uh when this AI thing happened it was super random I actually wasn't planning on it but I ended up um going to a bunch of networking events for AI um because I'm

really just fascinated by Ai and I wanted to learn and um I was the only musician in in the room and everybody was introducing themselves uh and They're like oh like I had like 15 startups and like I'm an engineer I'm like a VFX artist like just like a lot of different um really successful people and then it came to me I'm like I have like I'm a classical concert pianist and composer and I have no idea what I'm doing here and they just like laughed and um like there was the CEO of a of

an AI conference called cogex um he was there and he's like do you want to play something uh and I was like well like do You have a piano and he's like well not here but we could like we could arrange something and so and and um and I I told them like I would I was interested in compositional tools uh for and maybe even stage the stage tools for music with AI uh and exploring them and he said well like okay just then in two weeks like play like play something that is with AI

and I said yes without actually even having anything in my hands um so I went home and I nothing Like a deadline to kick your ass right pretty pretty much and I was like I deep dove into like whatever was available with AI and music and piano and like I found a lot of different projects people develop but there were like nothing that you could use on stage professionally like it was maybe for example that I found a reactive piano where like you play a few keys but then it it's more for like non- pianists

so like you play you press a few things and then it Responds back in a really much more beautiful way but it like you know so so what what would you even do like because I I already know how to play right it's like I don't need like it to like make my music better I want it to be like collaborating with me uh in a way um and so I started experimenting with uh a music generation uh tools AI music generation tools U for example yudo uh and sunno and yudo was very uh effective

so Uh I ended up generating maybe 50 different um excerpts of music and then I realized oh my God like there was one that was totally like chopan and and like and this was not even related to The Prompt at all like it was basically like reverse engineering um so I studied um I studied piano performance and literature keyboard literature in college so this was basically like part of my degree was to learn um all the important um pieces of music written for The keyboard instrument ever so from like Gregorian chance all the way up

to contemporary uh classical so so we would be asked to um to to basically uh how can I say like to tell the name of the composer fill in the blank notes and um like and and tell them basically what a piece of music was and what part of the piece it was in and and which century or which which uh which year was composed and which country was and all those details basically by like either Listening or having some like some sort of excerpt written excerpt um and and then somehow like I thought I

would never use that skill but here I was I was like oh my God like I can hear which how the data that was trains you know how these ai ai um outputs were trained so before I wait I I just want to stop you for a second because uh for someone who's never used an AI music generation tool before like an Oro uh how does this work when you say like specifically You're like I generated 50 pieces of music like step me through the process of what it means to generate a piece of music

and and how specifically how how are you doing this so it there really it's honestly like this was when it was very new so now they have more tools that are more specific because you can then have a little more control over what you generate um so they're trying to build like intros and outros in middle section So that at the time they didn't have those so um I was trying to prompt engineer it so basically like writing prompts uh about what instruments I want and whether there should be lyrics or no lyrics and then

I was just generating lots of lots of piano music but most of them didn't make any sense it's it's like H it's not as not not like the visuals I think the image generation tools were much better I would say much easier uh but this one like you just Have like random notes and they don't really make sense or or it would be like super simple like elevator music like you don't want to use that so for me it was literally like me figuring out which ones made sense so the prompting as I said was

so not even relevant it was like so generic like piano music like okay just like romantic piano yeah um classical just like just stuff like I mean those like I still actually don't really uh due to Prompting there isn't really that you don't really have that much control at this point about The Melodies and the harmonies you do have an option to upload now a piece of Melody and then it create creates the rest of it for you oh um but I'm not really interested in that either um I I I'm really interested in in

like how does AI like how can I use a meaningful music a seed let's say from an AI generated piece of music and then develop that into a meaningful long Composition that I can play on stage so okay um and and and funny enough like I I created this chopan for ludes which is I think still fascinating and then once I tried to do it again it I couldn't it's almost what do you mean you created a chopan Prelude what does that mean that you created aan I so you know amongst all the the excerpts

that I created I heard chopan in them and I was like this is so much like chopan alive like I can hear his his music and and I Could see like in with in certain parts I could hear his own Melodies but in a way where like reworked so almost like it's as if he came alive it was kind of a weird weird experience got to say kind of creepy um so I was like okay what like could I could I then like is this how he would compose if he was still alive and like

the question came to my mind and I was like oh my God that would be amazing to bring him back with AI and why don't I try so I I created like so I Extended it and some of the parts I kind of made it more practically possible for the piano to play cuz there was some like so it has like three parts the AI prud it's on YouTube if you want to listen to it um but it starts with this like Melody and the and it's like it's a singing Melody which is very typical

of chopan with an accompanyment in the left hand is this what is this the chopan regenerated the AI prel That's on your YouTube why don't we why don't we take a Listen to it so then we can talk about it because it it is fascinating I did watch it uh so let's let's let's listen to this one um and then we'll talk about it just so people have a good understand understanding of it [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] oh for [Music] Beautiful so for for um the people that that are not watching this on YouTube and

just listening to this uh Aisha Denise just just performed this piece you just played this piece and and I watched you play it and and um so so now that was you actually playing the piano right I'm not we're not witnessing an AI generated version of you that did something like okay that that you actually playing it so that was an incredible performance so tell me about Uh and the video is very well done but but so so yes step me through how that was created what what this piece is so the the piece is

a very very typical style of chopan work like and it is clearly trained on chopan so it's all all AI composed I didn't want to really intervene with it and and I didn't want so it's literally the first ever totally AI composed piece of piano music that is in the style of chopan um and and was the prompt of that like Saying compose a two-minute piece uh chopan piano no nothing at all it was literally just like me going around like just like you know as I said like just generating lots of lots of like

romantic piano music and then and then I spotted this one that was like the first 30 seconds basically that I had I was like wow this is a brilliant Melody and this is exactly like how chopan would write uh the only difference is like the ratio of the of the melody is a little longer Than normal U but that's totally fine I mean I I was also like I I'm very curious about what the AI it would do and also because it's like an emotional piece of music this was really fascinating for me to see

that it could create something so emotional and and romantic um because you know until that I was like in April that I was working on this like end of April so um early still um and and that that I mean I guess like even now people aren't really Um assuming that AI could create emotional music but it totally does like it's kind of we thought that being emotional was only for humans but um but because it is trained on human performances that are emotional then it is able to then um have a brilliant output um

and um so what I did was to extend it and so the extension would be like let's say I would generate a the second part of this music like the next 30 seconds let's say but then uh let's Say 50 more of that like and then I would choose the one that makes most sense so it's like you you keep generating until you find a meaningful um meaningful thing that complement it um and and it's interesting because like now I work a little differently I actually am working on like a multiart piece for piano and

Orchestra and I actually import different generations and then I edit them on in logic so I I create various parts and they don't Necessarily have to be done only through the AI um I mean I co-write and all that stuff too but but for this specific piece it was literally like all done in the system on you just me trying and trying again and again it takes actually a lot of time to really decide what should go next and how how can you take like it it I had no special prompts for this like for

anything really it is really more about finding the right U meaningful Melody that makes Sense and that will have a performance level um with it where I could do it's almost like a feedback loop right like it's somehow I end up finding things that I would even like I would love to play somehow yeah it's it's like it's a really interesting process and if I want to imitate it again it doesn't happen so I can't I can't really do that again kicking out uh just an audio file of a solo piano um and then but

it kicks out a bunch of or you kicks out one you're Like n not that you're refresh it it kicks out another you refresh it it kicks out another like that's that's it and you're like do the next 30 seconds do you get a two-minute piece of music then do you like download This MP3 and then are you transcribing this by ear or like how you are so you could learn how to play it wow okay yeah exactly so that I think um there hopefully there's going to be a tool for that because um that's

just like admin work you know it's like Just like transcribing something from ear like it's unnecessary waste of time I don't want to say waste of It kind of was I would I would like like learn how to play it and like actually like start working on it directly so I'm now actually I'm I'm having a bigger team now U to handle because I'm I'm doing like 10 10 times more of the repertoire now working on all the composers likeo schum ven so and so and I'm also composing my other album so I found uh

Some great people to work uh on this project with me too uh and a visual team too so it's like very exciting but um but essentially you have to like write all the notes down by ear uh and then learn how to play it and then memorize it um and is it kicking out music I mean clearly you as a human were able to play this were there's certain uh were there certain pieces of music it was kicking out there you're like there's no way a human could actually play that yeah so If you if

you heard like the middle section gets really fiery like really difficult to play and yeah right towards the end of that it actually that was kind of impossible to even notate because it didn't make sense it was just like you know because it's like recreating sounds it's not actually playing the instrument so so the sounds didn't really make sense it was a bunch of sounds that were over each other and it's just like mumbling right so I had To then create something that was alongside of that message it's almost like um you know how um

I don't know if if if you had like musician friends who would imitate other musicians and or like or composers so like so they would pretend like let's say you have a Pianist friend and he's pretending to play rahmanov so there's a lot of ways he could do that and you could say that is rahmanov for sure but it's not but then he would be playing like half the Notes right wrong or it would even be like a non-existent piece so it's almost like that with AI where I'm like oh I know what you mean

and then like okay this is what it meant it's almost like I'm like the postman in a way how I how I play Rock mon andov is I just start banging on the the the piano with my full palms and I'm like that's that's my rock mon enough that's all I can do yeah if if you came to me with that and I I could actually write notes I know what You're trying to do there I I get it right okay yeah and then I would create something for you that sounds like raah with the

right nose but with the same gestures so it's it's really interesting it's like a very new process um and and um that is basically how it how I worked on it and and I really wanted to give credit to these amazing composers because it's not like I I really don't want someone to suddenly be like oh yeah I compose this piece of Music and it's mine and it's like it's not like I don't want AI to be this like tool for non-m musicians to suddenly declare they're like making music like you know I'm I'm still

like I I care about the rights the ethical uh rights and obviously like U with classical you don't really have copyright issues um but I still care about crediting the original composers that that's people who were trained so let's talk about that uh you Bring up the ethical component of this this is the biggest debate in the music industry right now the ethics both udio Ando that you referenced that you used are being sued by the music industry because they did not get licenses to uh to train their models based on some of the music

now of course with classical music uh the statute limitations at long expired in terms of copyright should say the copyrights have long expired um and so that is in the public domain so they Can train it on that that's that's that's clear-cut but when it comes to how it's trained you know for pop music and all that and in the court cases I mean you know how you recognize chopan and Mozart or Bach uh the lay ear is can also recogniz that it was trained on a Michael song it was trained on you know and

and it's it's so obvious and you can like you hear it and even you don't even have to say like do a Michael Jackson song it just like kicks it out and You're like oh my gosh that sounds just like a Michael Jackson song anyone would be able to tell and so there there's the ethics around that and um you know the the law isn't settled and and people the ethics aren't honestly aren't even settled people don't really realize so so I'm I'm curious like where you're Drawing the Line as and you say you want

to credit the original composers only you not I shouldn't say only you but like you recognize and acknowledge that Like oh this sounds like chopan because you studied this and because of your background and because you did those crazy quizzes in college where it's like a a Mad Libs but of of like the the the composers and like you know but you knew it and and like um so most people wouldn't know that and and stud in these programs aren't saying this is in the style of chopan because God forbid that then opens them up

to litigation because you can't say this is in the style of Michael Jackson I don't know use or the Beatles or whatever and then like you know Paul McCartney is going to come after them and start you know and and sue them but it's like so you recognize this isn't the style of chopan or Bach or Mozart because you know them so intimately but do you think that these programs should be citing the references and and should be uh citing exactly where they're pulling and and how they trained the model and what they're Kicking out

to you it's really interesting because I don't I honestly this might sound interesting but like you know when you're doing a Google search like I I feel like these it's not the job of these companies to necessarily take care of the licenses but the ones who are using it commercially or or or like or the ones who are generating the music in a way I feel like not even train the model you think that they Should yeah I think that's for public good honestly that's information and we're all trained in public data you can listen

to beetles album and then that you can be inspired and write a song it's the same I think there isn't really that much my issue is using those specific sounds that belong to them and and so if you're not if you're not re-recording it and recomposing and if you're using their their um voices for example uh if you're using uh and if It's under copyright I think that is an issue but for um I guess like that and that's why I don't I don't even play around with um that kind of commercial pop songs or

anything like I don't want to get into that world because um you know that needs to be sorted out but I feel like it's more the responsibility of the person because you could plagiarize if you wanted to anyway right you can just like take like so so it is on you as an artist and as an Independent artist for example you I have to worry about my own rights like I have to worry about what music I'm releasing and how to get get the rights for those so if I'm using yeah so I I don't

know like how eventually like how this could be even labeled like I don't know I think we're in such a great area that preventing technology to to not achieve its highest forms of creation is I think not a great way to go about it but I think maybe they I think there are Some um some licensing agreements that they've been making I didn't really follow it too much just because it's not my territory but I think they are going to come to some sort of agreement with regardless of like yeah regardless of of what the

license and and and what the labels and the Publishers and and you know the the tech companies whatever their agreements come to it's it's all I mean in the end that's all about money I I'm more so like around the ethics of This and just like Curious you know like how you feel so strongly that you should be showan and you should be cting these most people that are going to use these programs aren't going to recognize these references whether it's classical and some even pop or rock or whatever and so like you say maybe

it's on the responsibility of the user or if you want to release this commercially or something like that what if they just have no idea what if they're like you Know give me a rock song with these words and it's like oh wow that is identical to Sergeant Pepper you know Lonely Heart SC Band by the Beatles and but they don't recognize it because they're 16 and they're like I've never heard of The Beatles I've never heard the be oh and it like you know it's so so so clear to someone who who knows that

song that's like oh this is a direct ripoff of Sergeant Peppers but the commercially released person Wouldn't know that why is it on why is it their responsibility to to do that even though they didn't they're not the ones that are you know cuz it's different if like if I'm writing a piece of music and I so clearly rip off Sergeant Peppers it's because I know the song it's because like subconsciously I I'm like it's it's in there it's like oh whoops like yep I'm G to have to split the publishing you know with with

McCartney and lennin out because like oh Yeah I clearly did that it worked this way in there subconsciously no problem but now when you're talking about new users that have literally maybe never heard the Beatles before which is crazy but let's just say they've never heard the Beatles before they're 14 years old and they're using this program but clearly udio andso have ingested The Beatles or clearly they've ingested whatever and now this 14-year-old goes there make me a rock song Make me a pop Song and it kicks this out and then they release it and

now they're they're the ones that should get sued it's yeah I think so yeah because I mean yeah totally because if if you're releasing something it's like if you're creating a food product let's say um you're essentially you're the responsible for that food to be selling like if you if you add things that you don't know what's in it like it's your responsibility as a so I think from like A um consumer culture kind of thing like I yeah you're responsible for everything that you're releasing and if you're earning money from it I think it

should you should actually be responsible to get the information and and learn about it but also I think um the like I think actually a lot of people in the something not a lot of people know but like a lot of people don't even know how the AI comes uh comes up with a thing like with the Output it's not like it it can list you like specific things that were used in there that's by Design but you're right you're right yeah but that is that is the fault of these tech companies that didn't didn't

build it that way to be able to trace back to say this is 70% showan 10% boach and 5% Mard in this composition right I don't think it works like that because um you can't really it's it's literally recomposed like I cannot say um like I I wouldn't be able To tell you exactly which part of show because it's really an original work of music you know it is in the style of chopan but he didn't write it it's a totally new piece of music you know I mean you you say it's in the style

of chopan but but if if that's just because I mean that's obviously your opinion and your extremely educated opinion but like it clearly didn't just pull from chopan to create that work and it's clearly pulling from a lot of classical uh Composers to create that piece of music so like I I guess saying it's in the style of chopan is that actually even accurate because like is yeah I mean chopan was also inspired by other composers it's not like he was born and just created music on his own with like an alien like he was

really inspired by John Field for example um who was uh writing the first nocturns ever um and so know we all know this and and that's tottally fine so like why can't AI do The same right it's like because it is essentially so as I said I think my issue is if they are using those sounds like if but if someone is generating music um first of all I think they should say it's composed by AI like there there should be something to flag so I think that like I don't think it would be truthful

but nobody's going to do this but in an Ideal World in yeah in an ideal world like the musicians would be honest authentic and say hey this is An AI composed piece of music um and then if they were recording it with their own voices and with their own instruments and so not using this the sounds I think that could be fine because then you wouldn't be stealing um the sound of the Beatles let's say or Michael Jack you know what I mean like I think that could be a more ethical way to go about

it um if they're inspired by like some of the but I but but again this is going to be so impossible to Tell so I don't even know if it's like if there is even point in in discussing it you know but yeah yeah I I mean I'm curious because like it it's it's interesting to me to hear you say that you don't have a problem personally with these uh AI music generation programs like udio andso uh training itself on all of these licens or unlicensed piece of copyrighted music because you use the comparison which

I've heard the companies use and the tech companies use Uh a human could just listen to all this music and that's how we train ourselves right but we have to draw a line somewhere because like robots are not human uh and and like the the these programs these these computer programs the there no human can possibly intake that much material in our life In Our Lifetime it's impossible and there's no way that we could generate this much material at this rapid of a rate that is just not a human Capability and so like I'm curious

like why you think that essentially the AI programs or or robots or tech companies should have the same rights as humans even though they have far superior capabilities I guess I guess you know at the end who is taking advantage of it it's going to be humans right it's not like AI is earning money and doing its own thing it's literally the people who are exploiting it or the corporations that will be exploiting it Uh and the CEOs of these corporations that will be pumping out all of this music thousands tens of thousands hundreds of

thousands millions of songs and then there's two people making a bunch of money that run these companies but they're still human it's still the human you it's like you know so it's like it's I think essentially like we're discussing yeah until they not yeah I mean I do have a theory about that too like that's a conversation for a Different podcast but anyway but but again it's it's really falls on onto U humans making decisions and yeah I mean I think there should be laws and definitely new ways of training I don't think uh these

tech companies should be punished for advancing technology but there have there has to be new rules and and laws and regulations and for example like I think I forget who did this deal but they they did a deal where um I think maybe with voiceover actors where They the the people whose voices would be used in training could earn money from each time that their voice was used in AI so I mean that's a great deal right like I would love to provide some of my piano tracks for an AI company and I could have

a passive income I mean that'd be great so I think um and that's that's literally Happ there are there are U music companies and and that that to me is a more ethical way to license music where uh when a model is is Training itself when a model is training on pieces of music the music that it is being trained on those musicians or composers songers are being compensated for that that is now phase two so phase one where you say like they don't know like UD onso did it in in my opinion in an

unethical way where they're just like give me all the music let me train it just like a human could do this but phase two there are now in my opinion and this is just my opinion and and you Know in more ethical ways where they are compensating uh compans srit who are saying okay you can train your model on my music but justay me a license fee for the training which is but again like because I see it more of a technological experiment I don't I I don't really um I think we need to experiment

and really like Advance technology and then like and it's okay to make mistakes on the way but then the most important is to Actually fix those things right so I mean this does full on also corporations like you said and CEOs and like and like who's going to use this music are they going to fire a bunch of musicians and just hire like just AI generated m is that what's going to happen or or like what's the future going to look like and it has to be for humans right and that's our the priority um

and specifically when I and and I I feel like I am being um very cautious with these things like I I just have my own responsibility as a human being of what I how I uh portray a message and how I deliver a piece of music and for example like um I face a lot of like uh kind of criticism for even trying to re rewrite not rewrite but like create music in the style of these composers even even though it's not a copyright issue you know um they were like how dare you touch it

and like so there I I always feel like it is okay to try um and and advance and then it's And and then you get together and really decide on what's the right way to go ahead and I think there's going to be many many different music um tools that are happening there's so many startups working on this and um I mean I just was listening to a session um of three four of them U working on ethical uh music generation one thing though is um I do feel like you know like when you see

these companies being sued by the major labels I mean the major labels already Are making millions of dollars it's the independent up up andc coming artists that need to be cared for I think and and somehow it's always the big guys making these things like you know the fuss about it so and and um and for me for example like the way that AI benefited my career was insanely amazing that I just wouldn't want anything to hurt these companies in a way because they have provided me a new source of um well first of all

this new project that I'm working on and and and in a way like I uh I am able to now generate new repertoire that was never written for the piano and actually play them on stage so I have like completely new compositions I could create in two days um and and um and that means I could do like like if someone asked me to do a tribute concert for I don't know in the style of mopen I could literally go on the computer work on these like little like pieces of music and then and then

Put together a whole show like in a very short time uh without worrying about um I don't know just like so I guess the my perspective is in the classical world all everything has already been CL and every Everybody Plays the same pieces like you hear the same bethen son the same bethen like um Symphonies or you like like same chopan sonatas the same chopan Pras and you're just like afterwards you're just like okay well how many more times am I going to hear The same piece of music played by like 25 Other M pianists

right right right would you have a problem if if uh your counterpart if someone uh came out and said this is my original composition but it actually was created the exact way that you're saying these are created and how would anybody know yes I would know I mean yes it is I mean no but how but how would you but literally like how would you know because you said you you refresh it Every time you can never recreate or regenerate the exact same piece so it's not like it's it's a sample library or something like

that and like who knows it's just not a human that has been inspired by all of this and and you true I mean that's technically that's possible I wouldn't want to sue them for it I mean I would just say like that is inspired by XYZ and that's cool like I mean I I guess my problem is more about someone who doesn't know how to compose Claiming that they compose like I wouldn't want that to happen that's more of an issue for me because you know as a musician I I spent years like trying to

play the instrument and perfect it and even like and this isn't even about AI it's about technology and so when the media media like sample libraries came about you can literally pretend like you can write a violent solo violent part and nobody's going to know whether you actually play the violin or not right Like you don't even need to know how to play the other instruments and I think that's little cheating honestly like you you've never touched a violent in your life and then here you are composing for violent I think initially that was like

a shock to me just seeing all these people just on their computers writing for orchestra I'm like dudes like you've never even like touched these instruments and here we are like in the performance uh part of the Academia Where we're like working literally like 10 hours a day uh on the piano like trying to work on new reperat and playing it live and most of these film scores aren't even recorded live like it's it I think that is my issue more is this whole like Viewpoint of like like how honest can people get like I

think there was a letter that was viral for um I don't want to like misname it but I'm pretty sure it was for Game of Thrones where like nothing was recorded live for A soundtrack back in the time and this chist wrote a letter saying you guys are like this is the most famous like you know series and you have so much money can't you just hire real musicians like so that is something that is more of an issue for me just generally like how technology is is um coming in but I had to make

peace with that you know I had to make pece uh because that is also the fault of the industry because you know movies don't really have the budget for Live musicians if I wanted to hire live musicians like an orchestra it would cost me $20,000 like I don't have that Mone coming from Spotify it's like you know the way that the streaming platforms are so exploiting artists is insane to me like it it's like you know when iTunes was like first when it arrived you could sell a song like a track for a dollar like

it was like 99 Cents or and you could even make it like 79 I think or like or maybe 1.3 you had Like more control over each each download people would make and the streaming came and destroyed the entire thing so I remember like um I took off all my music from Spotify for a while literally everything I mean nobody care obviously it's like it's not like I'm Taylor Swift and somebody cares about this right uh so it made no difference but at that time I was just so angry because I my music was streamed

like a track 55,000 times and all I got was $150 no I I I get you know I I get your point um but you know I guess the uh the a similar argument that you were kind of making about um you know how you feel streaming kind of uh diluted or cheapened um you know or commod uh commoditized music uh one could make that same argument I guess I would say as um you know AI doing the same for composers as in like you know you're you're you know saying that taking you know and

just like the The chist Who the Argument to Game of Thrones if it was Game of Thrones uh like why don't you use real musicians uh at the time this this new show probably didn't want to spend the money when they when a sample library and one person could create the sound of a full Orchestra and it worked you know good enough for them I guess someone could make the same arguments it's like theoretically you're kind of taking a job away from a composer are you not absolutely yeah so there should Be regulations for that

I feel like if the uh bu for a film is over a certain amount I think there has to be a quot of minimum musicians like live musicians um almost like taxes like I think there has to be certain regulations if if you're like a huge corporation you have to hire a minimum number of musicians live musicians or you have if you're if you're um and and I'm pretty sure people are going to start to find loopholes with that too you know just knowing that Humans aren't always honest um or they don't really care that

much so I mean that still lies on humans right so um it's not necessarily the technology it's more about how humans are going to behave having access to that technology um so absolutely I think there has to be different things that we have to think about U for example I don't have $20,000 to hire an orchestra so I would rather have a an actually product to sell uh without having uh to wait um and and and Not you know what I mean like that would actually make things really good for me um and and so

so you know you have to think about Independent Artists and up and coming and emerging musicians for sure um so that's why I get a little bit like skeptical when all these huge labels start suing I'm like guys like you know this could actually benefit a huge like these like super lowbudget Movie Makers like that don't have the you know uh the resources um to create Um soundtracks for example or like you know just there's there's a lot of a lot of that like yeah you make a fair point there you know we can't really

trust that uh these major corporations of the major labels the major Publishers that have historically been doing uh the lawsuits conducting these lawsuits because they historically I would argue have been on the wrong side of history when it came to like yeah the Napster era where they were suing uh fans you Know teenagers for downloading uh you know quote unquote illegally downloading music over Napster when I I argue that was the wrong approach that they should have been working with this new technology to to monetize it and to help the the artist and like you

know yes musicians especially Independent Artists historically have always found ways to innovate with new technology and you know use the technology um even even back in the the you know peer-to-peer Napster era kind of using it like uh putting up their bootleg live performances and just like working with the technology was kind of like tape trading in the jam band era it's like why famously Dave Matthews was very in favor of Napster and famously Metallica was very against it is because like you have one band that kind of grew up on tape trading and the

live experience and and showing what the live show could be and the others you know not and so you Fast forward and so yes I I I fully agree that we have to be skeptical when it's like the major labels the major corporations uh trying to dictate what is right and wrong because they're not pure they're they're looking out for their shareholders and their bottom line and they're just trying to make more money this is you know they'll make the arguments this is looking out for artists and like I you can't ever trust that so

I I think it's I think it's a Very fair point and here's a case and point of Someone Like You an independent artist who's working with this technology uh to advance your own career and you have found ways to use it in really Innovative uh ways that you know yes I I don't think there's anyone else that kind of using it the way that you are and people are experimenting and um so it is it is fascinating now where do you see this technology and how you're going to work With it where is it moving

and what are you working on now so I am actually working on as I said like collaborative ways so I have various tracks where the AI and and and um yeah for me it's like a it's really fun fun thing to do so I have tracks where I'm playing with an AI pianist so I'm improvising on top of an AI um and then I I just did um this is really cool um last week I was in San Francisco at a conference and um I premiered a Mozart AI where I generated Mozart images uh and

then uh with a with a studio they actually animated it based on my conducting wow so I I did like a green screen conducting and the of music that was AI music but in the style of molart that I kind of built so it's it wasn't just me just generating but also putting together a whole um piece and response and somehow I found I I found a way to create a coherent piece of music that was in the style of Mozart and it was like Orchestra and piano so there is Piano solo Parts where I'm

playing live and and Mozart is conducting me at the same time so I'm looking at the video of Mozart conducting me in real like and then in real time I'm adap to his conducting and then the robots come and start playing and it was like awesome so I see more of this um more of a physical world where so like my my goal is to then have uh the pianos like that uh move like the keys will move uh and and I can have a show in 10 different cities And people can can have like

immersive experiences and they can learn about these composers too so I I like a big big part of big part of it is really to teach people like why these composers was so great and like learn more about them and then also to play their original works as well like so it wouldn't be just AI composed music of like chopan B but also in my uh one of my Beta versions I did like a little show which is kind of like a uh kind of Not public yet let's say I might Premiere it somewhere very

big soon so I won't talk about it but um it's essentially like uh it wasn't just music but it was it was like chopan came to life like he he actually talked to us wow so I I trained like an actual chopan AI um and he was talking about his compositions and like truthfully like like like you know the right places right time with the right people and he would just talk about those things and Even create stories um and it was kind of an interesting and creepy experience I I'll definitely um invite you to

the next onez that yeah that sounds wild I mean yeah the pace of of AI of innovation right now and development and and what is in the AI space I mean is just wild and and you know it's cool to see an actual musician an actual composer uh that has been trained uh and and studi this and and has the background you know work With these tools and with these with this technology and use it in these very innovative ways while paying homage and respect to the history and to these composers and and all of

that um very fascinating to see and to see where where it's heading um so uh this I we could we could talk for hours I I I do want to about all of this is so crazy um so I I um I appreciate you going you're going in uh and deep on this with me um but I I feel like we got to call it There um for now and but I uh I have one final question that I ask everyone who comes on the show and that is uh what does it mean to you

to make it in the new music business I would say is it's a to leave a legacy love it easy done Aisha Denise thank you so much that was great thank you so much today's episode was edited by Ari Davids with music by brassroots district And produced by all the great people at AR take