BILL GATES REVELA: "Eu Estava Errado Sobre o Sucesso..."

This is a world where somebody can have over hundred billion dollar what is that these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless in a very smart way given back one of the biggest names in business Tech and philanthropy exploring and investing in innovative solutions to some of the world's toughest problems Bill Gates starting with Microsoft where I had monomaniacal Focus giving up weekends and vacation wasn't some big Sacrifice I loved it the idea that everybody would use computer was somewhat ridiculed so it was kind of fun saying no no this is really going to be mainstream if

you look at it from the outside you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition Envy jealousy what was it actually like he said we were the General Motors and he was Mercedes social networking we're still arguing about what the policy should be algorithms reward outrageous things even If they're not at all factual I've always underestimated how incredible my father was he would say hey I'm sorry I worked so hard and I'd say no no that was fine I feel lucky that he lived as long as he did it brings tears to my eyes because

he was incredible do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him the number one Health and Wellness podcast J shett J shett he won the only J there's so much conversation today I Feel about work like life balance do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time was necessary for the levels of success or would it have been possible in another way no I think for Microsoft to be successful even though we were the first we and we had a broader concept of software than the other companies we needed to be

uh what I would call hardcore and you know in that case the work is what I want to do it's it's not Like oh God you know I've got to earn a little bit more money it's you know this is the thing that throughout my childhood I was so lucky you know because of my parents and some early friends school I went to I had these exposures to computers that were very rare and so I had you know all these thousands of hours of programming experience and great feedback on okay how do you do it

better from the very best adults I got to see what was coming And the idea being part of making that real you know I woke up and said okay I I'd love to get to work my younger self could stay in you know days at a time I I don't do that now but then it was just in no way h a hardship you know because I I you know felt we were part of something that uh was would be very empowering and you know competitively I wanted us to to be the ones to make

it happen one of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is is you've said we Overestimate what we can do in one year and we underestimate what we can do in 10 years at the beginning did you over or underestimate yourself well people when they would hear us say a computer on every desk and in every home uh running Microsoft software they were like you kids are really out of it I mean every desk every home you know what would people do these things but because the chips were improving exponentially doubling every couple of years

it Allowed us to think of the Computing part as essentially being free and so the only thing that would hold you back is you know okay can you help people with photographs can you help them with documents can you help them stay in touch with people far away or find information and we knew over time uh that as these things got better it would would be part of the mainstream and so as people sort of came around to that they were like wow Whether it's at work or at home this is just part of how

how people do things uh and we wanted you know to get it out to everyone you know students everywhere you know even in the the countries that are are lowincome you mentioned your parents earlier and when I was reading this book I felt like they are such a big part of this book and the storytelling and the incredible experiences and memory and one of the things you mention is you say that they Felt that they accepted that you were different from your peers and I was wondering in what way how did you know that they

had seen that and accepted that well it definitely confounded them that sometimes I was pushing back in a pretty tough way you know as though you know we were in some competition uh they would hear from teachers and they were very good about staying in touch with my my teachers you know some teachers would say this kid Should be ski ah had one or two grades some teachers would say this kid should be held back you know so that kind of is what you know make up your mind you know I had one experience where

I worked on a a report about the state of Delaware and I ended up doing this 200 Page Report with the Greatwood cover well the other kids turned in you know five or 10 page reports and it was very embarrassing that I thought wow did I you know kind of overdo this thing and yet you know That ability to concentrate you know would hold me in good stad in terms of reading long books and applying that concentration and curiosity first to cards then to math and then finally to software and how would software change the

world uh but you know they never were quite sure what to do and you know sending me to a therapist actually ended up being brilliant uh and sending me to a very nice private school where the classes were a bit smaller and you know I could get I always got an unfair share of attention from the teachers you know we'd have like 15 people in the class but you know almost 20% of the teacher time in terms of telling me what to read or you know marking uh my writing up you know I I got

an unfair share partly because my curiosity or energy level you know did Mark me out in both positive and and negative ways yeah what what influence do you think Dr cresy actually had On you because therapy at that time and in your early age looking back on it now what do you feel it gave you what skills did it give you well it's a very it was a very rare thing in fact the other people coming to him were these couples that were having arguments and so in a I hope privacy appropriate way he would

kind of give me a sense of that he gave me a few IQ tests he you know had me read about Freud and all these things but slowly but surely he was saying to Me that fighting your parents really has no purpose I mean they really do love you they're on your side you should apply your energy uh towards other things and you know eventually he made me feel kind of foolish like yeah why was I taking these what I thought were kind of arbitrary rules or where my mom would say you should respect me

and I'd say well you know I don't know and a little bit as I figured out I could understand things like playing cards as Well are better than my grandmother or you know I could read books that had complicated things I was a bit showing off to saying because my cognition is good why should you be able to set arbitrary rules but anyway I'm embarrassed when I think about it now uh but Dr cressie was so encouraging to me in general and then got across uh he probably understood at the first meeting you know that

I uh had to Be convinced to make has change but he did it in this a super nice way and and so the idea that no my parents yes they're imperfect but wow they're on my side that that changed my behavior yeah and did he also had these beautiful ways of you said he never belittled you and I believe he used to mention to you you're going to win or or he wanted you to win and I feel like that's what what did those things do because it's almost like you're saying he made you have

this Almost this realization that you were wrong but it seemed like he did it in a very graceful elegant way like how did how did he do that absolutely they you know I thought oh I need to be so clever to win and I'm going to apply all this energy to win and so the idea when he says no you're going to win it's like oh I see it's not because I'm clever it's because it's us you know they they care for me and they're trying you know to help me and you know their main

concern Is am I ready you know to go out in the world and if I have capabilities will I develop those and use those and you know my mom always had a way of kind of pushing me to do more I said to her once you know you told me to go to the heart of school and she said no I never actually said that and I said to her well wait a minute when other parents would come over you'd say how bad they must feel that their kid didn't go to College or something like

that's so okay it was indirect but you know it was kind of there so you know my mom certainly encouraged me you know and sometimes I felt overwhelmed uh by that but my eventual reaction to just okay try to outdo any uh levels she set and ended up working out well yeah what was something that you didn't value about your mom at that time that now looking back you say no I do value that well things like table manners uh I'm like well you know Okay I have to take the ketchup and put it in

a bowl and then do this and I'm not supposed to put my elbows on the table and you know she was just you know trying to make sure I was uh civilized a little bit you know uh what I would wear and they definitely got me engaged with adults you know my social skills were slow to develop uh with people other than a few boys like myself but with adults because they were having them over and I you know got so I could ask Those adults to talk about what they were doing that was really

valuable to me cuz I ended up through that and uh through one of my early friends having more of an Outlook of okay where am I headed at quite a young age um which uh was was super helpful yeah it's it's so funny as I was reading the book I was reminded of so when I graduated from college I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left to become a and my parents were they were very kind And accepting of my decision but my mother still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture

of me graduating wearing the hat and you know holding my certificate and I remember I was having the same feeling that you were where my mom would always may say to me oh when I go to my friend's houses they're telling me about all the jobs that their kids are doing and the apartment they just moved into and you're just there being a monk like you know she'd say that to me And it was always kind of feeling like that that sense of pressure to live up to something she wanted me to do even though

there was love and there was acceptance and I was wondering for you like you you said it yourself she was such a Powerhouse she had such high expectations when did you feel that you reached that or do you feel you've reached that well unfortunately my mom passed away in her early 60s she uh she got breast Cancer and uh so I had gotten married six months uh before she passes away so she never got to see that I tried to follow her example as a a parent uh she never got to see the foundation uh

get going my dad actually ran the foundation and got it off to a fantastic start so he was involved but her sort of dictate about okay if you are successful you have to give back it's a a shame uh that she didn't get to uh kind of participate and uh see that I'm f me what she said Uh despite all the times I I pushed back on her yeah do you still feel that today that it's almost like she her voice is in your head and she's present in that way oh absolutely the you know

the sense I have of okay I've got to do this and do that well that's you know really came from her my dad more set the example of being calm and thoughtful you know also great great values but much you know it wasn't through the the interaction he would you know leave Pretty early and if my mom had to escalate to call him in you knew you better give in uh because that was kind of the the ultimate thing but yeah so each in their own way he through example her through high expectations deserve a

lot of credit and you know part of this book is to really honor them and uh two of the young friends I had who set me on a uh a great path well it's pretty insane this is a world where somebody can Have over hundred billion doll I mean that you know what is that you know you don't want to just give that to children and create some Dynasty that's not even a favor to them sadly the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than uh you know the impact you've had philanthropically I have

a a good friendship both with uh Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg Elon stands by himself uh maybe that drives everybody else together I don't know I was wondering What was your biggest realization about your father from writing this book it's weird I've always underestimated how incredible my father was his his values even the exchange with my mom you know before they get married um his one of his dreams was to be a federal judge and he eventually that was offered to him and because his law firm uh would have had great difficulty he said no

I that would hurt my colleagues so I'm not going to do that and I had written him a Note saying gosh I hope it's not because you had to pay all that tuition that you're not getting to do this and I'd forgotten he'd written me back such a nice note so you know in digging through I'm amazed we end up keeping those things it was so touching to me now I you know I'll I'll spend my whole life trying to live up to to the example he set what was it like finding that reply forgetting

that he had replied I mean no well certainly it brings tears to my Eyes because you know he he was incredible and towards the end of his life we did get a little more direct you know where he would say hey I'm sorry I work so hard and I'd say no no that was fine to uh to be doing that you know and so instead of things being sort of through my mom when she was gone he had to build up that communication in a way it was far more intimate you know I I feel

lucky that he lived as long as he did how did how does That as that relationship evolves like it felt like when I was reading source code I felt like your father was there to always save you in these moments like he'd pick up the phone he'd be involved in you know talking to you and your friends like he was there in these very pivotal moments that felt like almost professional support from him of course based on his intelligence and background as well but it sounds like that evolved to a much more emotive intimate space

Like what does that what does that look like for a father and a son across all those years you know and when I was going off to college you know I'd call my parents every couple of weeks but you know you couldn't like text and send photos and so but I always knew you know that they were supportive and so I actually got into a little bit of trouble where I taken my colleagues into the computer center and done some of the early Microsoft basic work and the College as they filled position to supervise that

computer CER we're like wow did you break the rules and you know my dad was always so kind of wise you know when I ever was like oh my God I may have screwed up here I I better get on top of this you know that's a time where I call him in and his advice is very helpful you know then later we have a customer who's not paying us and our very first customer another case where my dad encouraged me to stay the course So it wasn't in those days that I talked to him

a lot but that when I was in trouble he was the one person you know who was so sophisticated and you know on my side that his advice really did uh help at a lot of uh key uh turning points and you know then later when we have a relationship where we actually talk intimately I I was able to to thank him for that do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him and Well he got Alzheimer's and he because he was such a nice person he was still like super nice you

know always worried did his caregivers get enough meals or you know eventually the fact he grew up up in the depression showed cuz he'd be worried about you know are we buying too expensive a meal you know even though he had as much money as he he he could ever need you know so you know we got back to his basic character which was just very Uh friendly and and thoughtful uh so yes I I feel like in his case we did have those conversations that that I I never got to have with my mom

there's the one phone call you described the three words he used of I hear you when he was talking uh to the school and that left such a strong imprint could you tell us why that was such a big moment for you at that time well I was in this uh contract discussion with this group I thought you Know owed me some computer time so that's the first time that my dad is pitching in to help and you know I thought what's he gonna do is he gonna you know threaten them or be tough on

them and no not at all the fact that they sort of gave their side of the argument and then you know he just simply said I hear you which was this very this way of saying you know I don't agree with that you know let's try and reach a compromise here you have your Point of view so just the way he said I hear you you know kept things really calm didn't acknowledge or attack their position so we could get on to the hey you know if you meet these guys halfway isn't that okay for

both of you here which is is what uh eventually came out of it and so the idea of being subtle and helping to find that Common Ground I was young enough to that was kind of blew my mind yeah wow you can kind of uh hold your ground but without being Provocative what would you say is the one way your mother influenced your parenting style and then your father influenced your parenting style well this idea that uh is actually kind of school called love and logic where you make expectations to the child very very clear

and you make consequences very very clear and in an unemotional way you say no you're going to have to go to your room because we agreed if you did this that's what happens my dad Practiced that approach my mom probably wanted to but then if she was frustrated you know she'd be oh I'm so disappointed and kind of bring emotion into it so the intensity of how much my mom cared I you know I think that was was great and I think kind of that calm predictable hey the world uh Works in a clear way

and you know I'm on top of the world and here's what I need from you you know that very much came from my dad so I tried to be a little more around you Know my my wife Melinda did deserves all the credit you know that our kids have come out so well because she what really was around but I I tried to be that's the one thing I did a bit differently than my dad was was uh more more intense vacation time a little bit more of a direct communication not through their mother how

did you reconcile that towards the end about your father's style and how did you make space for that and accept that in that Generation you know my dad's career was a very big thing in fact having all all sorts of adults around for events you know was connected to his career and you know he did very well he was a a top lawyer in Seattle so I never resented the idea that that my my dad was very busy you know you had kids early you know the man's C is important later my mom also not

only is doing volunteer activities but as people wanted women on boards because she had the right Background she got a huge number of those opportunities and she uh got a little busy herself um you know I don't think the amount of time is the only the only key factor there yeah I'd have to agree I was I when I was reading it too I was thinking that and and this what I found so interesting bill when I was reading source code that even though you have lived such a otherworldly life in so many ways there

were so many relatable moments from a a parenting Standpoint and when I was reading it I was thinking about my father too who wasn't around a lot when I was younger he was working both my parents had to work and to the point you just made right now like my father wasn't there when I was playing rugby or he wasn't there when I was swimming for my you know local club or he he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering and for me that really allowed me to become the man I wanted to be and it

allowed me to have More freedom almost to not feel like there was this heavy expectation and I've always seen that as a positive thing because it allowed me to have a broader definition of what it meant to be a man what it meant to be a son what what it meant to go off and discover something that I was passionate about and so even seeing you kind of having your mother be the one who was almost you know pushing the expectation and what the family should be but then Having a bit of freedom it was

interesting to see how that impacted you to be able to push back to be able to you know even at one point like you said in that letter like parent him almost in his decision uh and and and played that role so it it was refreshing for me to read a book about you where I was where I was actually seeing parts of myself uh in certain relationships in a very relatable way did you did you ever anticipate that When you were writing it I was surprised you know so when I'm describing going on those

hikes I was thinking boy would I have let my son go off uh and we really are holding back children a bit more you know out of a sense of okay ultimate safety I guess but you know in that generation I was allowed to take trips and Hikes and and I think it benefited me and so writing the book I was like wow and you you've talked with people like Jonathan hey about this are we a Bit overprotecting you know kids so that they don't get to make you know mistakes or try themselves out or

mature the way that is is best for them do you think schools failing children if you have 30 people in a class it's it's pretty tough you're going to have some kids who are behind and some are are ahead you know even the best teacher has got a a big challenge with that education I wouldn't say is much better Or worse today than a few decades ago we've always thought okay when we bring the computer in you know will that helpful and certainly if you want to find information it's been great we're still working on

that now with the AI maybe a personal tutor will be encouraging and work on your level uh it's early days but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms people like Saul con with kigo that our foundation is is helping to support but Education uh it the the computer has not made it so wow kids learn a lot more today uh than they did did a long time ago and I I I still believe we can change that but it means if you're in one of those large classes you can feel lost and you

know we're we're missing you know great human potential you tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself the first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who Moved their family and they had kids and I was Like if I can't pay this guy's check this is rude you know he's got a real problem and I'm kind of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out uh so that scared me what is your favorite mental health habit this show is sponsored by better help we talk a lot about red flags

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download more and learn more where have we gone wrong well the key is is motivation if you have a kid who's super motivated then yes going to the con website and doing you know hours of math problems that's great but in a way that takes the kid who's in that top 20% and makes him even more intimidating to The other ones and you know people can come in if a kid in eth grade says is math a subject you have any confidence in if they answer no to that they're five times more likely to drop

out and so we do lose kids and it's more out of motivation and so most of the stuff we've done on the computer is about okay if you are motivated we'll help you out out and not so much about how you make it feel relevant to them and give them a Sense of success and maybe this time around with these AI personal tutors we'll we'll get that right but kids check out of no I'm I'm not one of those kids who's good at math even though for a lot of professions and you know for college

courses we require Algebra 2 uh tests to be passed in order to go on and you know even be a nurse or a policeman so we have we have work to do yeah uh but more on on the motivational side yeah I really I really appreciate you Saying that actually because I do think that we think about changing education is so theoretical and functional but it is the drive it is the motivation and I was thinking about how we put limits on ourselves when I finished sixth grade I remember before I went to high school

my favorite subject was math in sixth grade and my least favorite subject was art and then when I finished high school my most favorite subject was Art and my least favorite subject was math and it Was just fascinating to me how that completely flipped over a seven-year period And as as I've grown up in my own life I found that Art and Design philosophy economics are far more where I naturally gravitate toward but so much of that up until sixth grade was the limits or the things that were expected of me as opposed to what

I was motivated and driven towards and I was thinking about something you said in the book you you said that if you were growing up Today you would have been diagnosed with uh being on the autism spectrum and I was wondering how would that have affected you how do you think that would have affected you yeah I'm fascinated by that because for some people being given a label is a pejorative to them and you know almost feels shameful although we know you know being on the Spectrum gives you you know almost some superpowers of concentration

that if you find the right place it can be helpful Other people it they're glad when they get that because then it they say oh that's why you know my social skills were slow to develop and you know here's some strategies that people like me have used I'm not alone in this you know I I fit in into this and it's actually a uh reasonably common thing there isn't like some medicine ADHD you know which I probably also would have been diagnosed with uh they do have the Focalin ater all a Variety of things they

give kids for that and I I still wonder about that I haven't chosen as an adult to get a diagnosis or use those medicines I think eventually you learn to you know adapt I still kind of rock a little bit that when I'm thinking hard and without even knowing it and it does bother people sometimes and that's definitely kind of a what they call self simulation uh behavior that you know makes it pretty likely I I fit into that uh diagnosis do You think it would have changed your trajectory of success have you thought about

that or I I worry that I might have thought of it as pejorative it's it's really how you communicate it I mean if you say hey here's a kid who doesn't socialize at all and you're you know sort of destined to you know never be good at those things um you know obviously to create a company hire people motivate people go out and you know sell the the dream of computing I've had to even though I'm not a natural you know develop a lot of social behaviors and it might have discouraged me unless it it

was done in a a very tasteful way you know I think of that Dr cresy experience where he didn't make me feel terrible while enlightening me that I was wasting my time as well as my parents' time yeah did you did you continue therapy after that or ever go yes again uh most periods of my life I found it Useful to have a therapist where I'm talking to about you know what's confusing or or what's troubling I think you know I'm I'm very lucky to have that I think particularly if you have a life where

some extreme things happen that you know luck is a huge part of that to you know keep your you know keep you on the ground a good therapist can play an invaluable role there so yeah I I've benefited to this day from those kind of conversations yeah well I was thinking About in the book obviously you beautifully introduced us to Kent and obviously the loss of Kent seems to be a place in your memory that's naturally so difficult and and fuzzy and you talk about in the book how you're not quite sure what your parents

would have said and and how it all felt and I was just wondering if there were any did you did you have support at that time through therapy and other ways to deal with that grief no and I've been looking recently People like Anderson Cooper are talking about okay how do you deal with grief and you know a lot of what they come up with is that if you can keep talking about the person and you know what you got from them you're kind of honoring them you know Kent's parents obviously were the most affected

by this because you know they would never have this in incredible son and you know who would have no doubt gone off and done incredible things and I remember Spending time with them for like a year afterwards and then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy uh I didn't do that as much you know in the book I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father I run into him right as I'm uh starting work on the book and you know we can talk about what a great influence he had on me and

you know so I did I did think that was helpful but boy it took me a long time because death it was just such a shocking thing I have This idilic childhood other than Kent's death nothing at all traumatic and we're talking all the time you know a little bit I reach out to Paul to kind of feel Paul Allen who goes on to found Microsoft with me to step in and you know be that that super close friend uh but back then the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly hey buck up

you know get on with things which after a few months I I did yeah and also at that time you're talking About how he actually invited you on the trip he went to and like you're talking just before he goes off and then all of a sudden you're like wait a minute we used to talk every day or you know and and that it can feel so disassociated from yourself in that moment it feels like how did you revisit that when did you kind of turn towards working through the grief as you wrote the book

did it feel like you were revisiting it because definitely you know at the that high School when I I built a hall in his name and you know gone out there and talked a little bit about um the the role that Kent played in my Evolution you know so some efforts to honor him you know sadly you know Paul Allen also the other key friend in this book died I think about six years ago from cancer and you know he he also was very key at getting me on the right path and there wouldn't be

you know without those two friends you know there really Wouldn't probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft yeah you talk about how Paul was setting you little challenges and would ask you to you know try this or do that and then you'd go ahead and I was thinking how amazing to have a friend that could motivate and inspire you in that way and then I was thinking about what you just said when I was reading the book that it felt like you told so many stories of so many people in your life that are no longer

here now And so grief wasn't just about Kent or Paul it was there's so you know just so many individuals that you've had life with that you're having to process that with what has been helpful for you genuinely deeply inside that has led to some sort of helpful Direction with that grief of writing a book about all these wonderful people that you've lost well most of my life has been about looking forward yeah and okay let's get this Innovation let's do it first and you Know whether it's software uh saving children's lives which is the

the big Foundation thing and it is a little bit unnatural for me to look back because you have to say okay how do I describe my relationship with my mom in a open honest way and and yet honor her you know how do I talk about K where I don't know if he' lived what would have happened but uh you know probably you know something that he he would have Very much been a part of it and so it's it's awkward to look back because you you have to deal with these things and talk about

you know you know should have I have spent more time with this parents afterwards you know because eventually I I stopped doing that uh but you know this year I turned 70 I mentally don't feel like I think of a 70-year-old but you know it means you know I'm in the the final third uh no doubt of you know what i' I've been very lucky to to live And so you know I I really did force myself I know there's some lessons out of this you know telling people how lucky I was and maybe a

few lessons for them as as parents or how they uh navigate uh success and so once we got going on it I've enjoyed it quite a bit I have to say when I'm reviewing it and editing it I'm very slow because I'm you know reliving these things so it always takes me about three times longer to take some Pages and and edit than I I predict or if it was you know something like about climate or pandemics you know I'm I'm pretty fast there's no deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm uh editing

uh something scientific yeah what what was your favorite part to relive and what was the hardest part to relive well everything about the fascination we had and you're like what we see this thing these computers are going to be amazing and but no one else is saying that so we Must be wrong um that's crazy and you know that contradiction so you know Paul actually I helped him get a job out in Boston so he could be out there and and bugging me that okay should we go build a company and then finally when this

kit computer which is so limited but it's the beginning of the Revolution when that comes out then you know Paul's argument we should go and do something he he wins because we don't want to be left behind we want to want to be there From the very beginning and then we meet a few people although it was still very small move we meet other people like Steve wnac Steve Jobs who also you know have been infected with this idea of okay we're on to to something that uh is going to be huge that Paul I

mean the the research that you did to find in this book I was every time I was reading I was just like how do you have so much detail I was really Blown Away by the level of detail both in the storytelling Every moment but then even there's that note that you have that says Steve Jobs called was rude and I was just like you know even just having that back then I was I was laughing as I read it and and I was wondering like I feel like as from the outside and naturally and

and you talk about this later on in the book how we see people as this like Slither of who they are and people have a public profile and that becomes their brand and If you look at it from the outside you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition Envy jealousy kind of like arch rival Nemesis kind of portrayal what was it actually like because it in the book it comes across much more um inviting them that as opposed to this kind of harsh rivalry well I had a fantastic relationship with Steve you know early

on I got to do the the basic which they called apples that went with every Uh Apple 2 computer uh so I worked with both jobs and MNC uh to get that done then later as Steve has a kind of small group inside Apple doing the Macintosh he invited Microsoft to write application software a spreadsheet word processor for it and so we actually had as many people as they did and we worked very closely on that project and he and I loved the fact that you know that ended up being a a key Apple product

um then he leaves Apple I talk to him about Next but I never thought that computer would do that well so he was disappointed uh but then when he goes back and he's un it's unbelievable what a great job he did because Apple went from being on the way to dine to being the world's most valuable company and Steve had really matured and it's was something and I you know we we helped write software for that then later when Steve uh is sick we had about five different conversations where we got to Talk about kids

and you know had computers done well and you know where he was pretty thoughtful it's amazing to me that Steve you know his skill set and mine other than okay you know madman leader you know drawing people in but he his taste in design and user interface and even his intuition about people he was just genius in a way you can't explain he didn't look at code and write code whereas you know my thing is hey I'm an engineer you know here's the code Let's make it faster and and smaller so actually that allowed us

to get along because you know what he was super good at I was not good at I envied those just incredible talents that he has in some ways he's more singular you know if you say to me are there other people like you who are great at writing code and conceptualizing yeah I can name a number of people including many who worked with me but I don't know somebody who's who I say oh yeah you know he he's just like Steve Jobs wow well that's very humble of you as well I mean that's it's beautiful

to hear what were some of those final conversations like that you had with him that were potentially I always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more so in those moments yeah we did one public appearance you know where we were being thoughtful about the Friendship uh Walt Mossberg had us had us on stage together which was definitely a fun thing and surprised People because Steve was very harsh uh you know he was a you know he said we were the General Motors and he was like the Mercedes uh uh but you know all

in uh it was all very fair well we you know we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education and we're both he and I had given speeches saying of course this will make education you know five times better and we're like wow uh we got that one wrong maybe you know maybe next round uh we'll deliver on That promise and you know how unusual it was even a little bit lonely that you know when you were so successful and then you're having doubts about okay are we making uh mistakes here um you know both of

us had had kids by then he was actually uh you know of course he not only did Apple he did the Pixar stuff and because that was a realm I I'm not in I you know could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did now partly picking people but that's you know kind Of amazing uh you know now part of of Disney and you know and both a sense of thankfulness although you know he was very and just hoping some new drug would come along and tragically it it didn't yeah was there a memor

memorable piece of advice or conversation where you said something to him or he said something to you that has stayed with you well the fact that you know why were we both so competitive and pushing ahead I I think both of us You know in his case he's an orphan so he has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his Zeal um I don't have any like that you know even though Kent died that's not why you know well before that I was somehow always you know pushing as hard as I could be um

and you know I think both of us you know being thankful for what we'd been able to work on I mean you know we got more of a front row seat and helped build this thing Steve never got around To doing philanthropy now his uh Widow Loren is doing great philanthropy so you know that's uh I'm sure he' he'd be proud of that but he didn't get to that stage and I was just getting into that stage so I shared with him a little bit about wow a lot of children die and we don't do

much to stop that and that kind of intrigued him but then he never got to pursue it yeah you're you're reminding me of something I read in Bob iger's book where he was Talking about how there was a time when Spielberg George lucus they'd all sit together and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback and they all felt very confident doing that because they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse and so they didn't feel threatened that oh well Steph's going to steal my idea or you know George Lucas is

going to steal my idea because they felt so confident and it sounds like even for yourself as Competitors to talk to have a relationship does that still happen today do do competitors talk do they pick up the phone to each other or is that very rare because it feels like it feels definitely now so less uh I have a a good friendship both with uh Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg Elon stands by himself uh maybe that drives everybody else together I don't know uh and you know over time I think Elon uh as he gets

older maybe he'll mellow out a Little bit and uh you know probably be a incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done but yes there is some good conversation you know Larry Ellison is now in a phase where he's doing some excellent uh philanthropy and we're all a bit more reflectable I mean hopefully by the time you get to 70 You' been you've been hyper successful you can you know relax and let your guard down a little bit and you know laugh about uh the things you Got wrong yeah what what was some of

the advice that you've given to Mark or especially earlier on his journey or even more recently yeah well you know Microsoft uh the one big challenge we had is we were so successful by the late 90s that we got into antitrust difficulties and in retrospect we could have handled that better and so I've been very uh open with Mark you know I used to brag that I didn't have an office in DC and I didn't you know what A great country that I didn't have to talk to politicians well that was a mistake uh and

you know now you know you've got all of them going to the inauguration and you know so they're not they're not making that mistake uh maybe they have they corrected too much in the other direction well you know his history will will judge so yeah I'm you know it's weird to be kind of an elder Statesman uh you know Saia who runs Microsoft has done such a a brilliant Job and you one of my great fears when I left Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would feel if it wasn't doing well and

so Steve Balmer did a great job and now SAA with this AI generation so i' that's another great blessing is that not only the value of the stock but also the fact I can just focus on okay what about polio and malaria you know knowing that they're they're taking the the company to new heights you know what what a great Blessing uh that's been for me yeah it seems like I love what you were just saying now that you know maybe there'll be a time when Elon turns to philanthropy and you talked about others and

it and it seems that that turning point for you is so key and I feel like you were one of the first not that it wasn't done before but one of the first to do it in a really big way to be able to move away from this big company that you founded world Changing um generation changing and then turning to that and that service element to me I was intrigued as to why do you believe that that's almost where every one of these people need to go like why is it that you believe that

turning to a life of service and giving back is core for Elon whoever else it may be well it's pretty insane this is a world where somebody can have over hundred billion dollars I mean that you know what is that and it's Not you know you don't want to just give that to children and create some Dynasty that's not even a favor to them you want to give that back so these are unprecedented fortunes and if you're a great innovator and you know how to gather scientists together and think about problems then there are some

government is risk averse and particularly poor countries don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria or solving Malnutrition it there is something that philanthropy can have these outsized results in terms of lives saved almost like you know a great startup uh does on the S of innovation so getting those Minds to turn those capacities to equity to the poorest both inside the US and outside the US you know I feel that you know we've got the golden rule we're we're supposed to care about people there are times when it feels like sympathy for poor

people Outside the country is lower today uh than it's been but I know that'll come back around because of the the moral logic there I think uh I I believe is is is very very strong and I you know I found it so fulfilling you I created a a group called giving pledge of of people who've uh committed to give the majority of their wealth away and we learn from each other hopefully we Inspire each other and hopefully we change the societal expectations that if you have Even a modest Fortune most of it should combine

with your your talents and make the world a a bit more of a a a fair fair Place yeah I think I I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really fortunate when I when I went out and lived uh as part of my time as a monk in India we helped uh put together a well the monks were doing already but I got to be a part of it uh helped build a um daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million kids a day And it was all in exactly what you're saying

like to help the malnutrition children and now they're even trying to figure out how much protein into having it Lear like trying to figure out the actual composition as well and I remember seeing that so early in my life like I would have gone out there first time in my teens and then later on when I became a monk in my early 20s but the reason I raise it is because I think it goes back to what the point you made Earlier about motivation and one thing I've really been trying to figure out with the

right partner recently is how when I grew up I remember my dad used to read the rich list and he'd have the rich list like the Sunday time or whatever it was and so as a kid I would see my dad and on the back of it would be the rich list and I was thinking how incredible would it be if kids grew up with a service list and how would that change motivation because I feel we Reward we repeat what we reward and I feel like we've never really seen that case study yet up

until maybe you know your case study and and the people that are following with the giving pledge that service becomes a natural part of life at that scale I think we see it in smaller communities you see people with very little actually doing so much but you don't necessarily see it at that level and so I find that changing that drive and motivation early on which it Seems like your mother had for you your impact of Faith had in you I think that could be huge I don't know what you think about people seeing a

service list instead of a rich list or whatever the right word is sadly the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than uh you know the impact you've had philanthropically and part of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there you know I've tried to Think Through okay you know since we know how To save lives for ,000 per life saved wow we better you know use this money uh as absolutely best we can and I do think we're going to see a rise in philanthropy I mean you know these fortunes are

almost illegitimate unless they are in a very smart way given back if it's consumption if it's Dynasty I don't think Society should feel that good about it and you know I I sat down with Bernie Saunders and he said no he would outlaw billionaires I I think That's a mistake I think allowing in America in particular wild Innovation wild risk-taking uh is good but then on the backside of that there there should be a strong expectation and I think role models help a lot you know Warren Buffett in very different industry very different skill set

you know he's always been a role model and was the one who who even when I was uh still building the fortune said okay your mom is right you know and here's some books you Should read you know Carnegie Gospel of wealth the history of what rock of did and know because this this will be an important as as important a measure of your impact as as making the money yeah I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful one to pass on what I think it was Trump who mentioned recently that you'd asked to

see him to have a discussion did that meeting ever happened yeah I had a a very long and actually very impressive dinner in terms Of he asked good questions uh you know I talked about over 10 million people are alive because of us generosity uh with HIV medicines going back to uh President Bush in 2003 and you know I encourage him to keep that as a priority and to accelerate Innovation uh you know there's an idea that you might be able to cure AIDS that we're working on and he could help accelerate that I talked

about polio eradication and how uh his leadership and the US government Resources are very important there and you know I'm sure everybody's trying to meet with him the fact he gave me that long period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions you know somebody may come along later and tell them to cut that money but I make the argument as best I can uh that you know the moral purpose of the US and and how we're thought of and you know the fact that a cure is is on its Way that's worthwhile uh

you know so this Administration in in charge and you know trying to help them you know they're willing to cancel old things some of which should maybe be canceled some which shouldn't you know so they're you know helping direct them so they'll use their open-mindedness to do different things and try and make that come out well I you I think that's that's worth trying yeah what what do you see as the moral purpose of the United States and the way you mentioned it just now well we've been The Shining Light of not only being a

democracy ourselves and you know having political opponents respect each other and work well together but also you know saying that even though we're in this very powerful position we won't abuse that position and okay if we allowed ourselves you know to let other people spend too little on some things you know there's there's a balance there but if You become too much of a bully and you're not keeping democracy which you know requires reducing the polarization uh and bridging some of these divides and that's a little bit scary you know democracy is a a fragile

concept and particularly at a time when AI is coming along and the government will have to play a strong role and saying okay these jobs have been lost but we're more productive overall and therefore here's how we help uh those People you know how do we keep AI as a primarily beneficial Thing versus a uh thing that bad people use and it messes up these job markets that I expect the 2028 presidential debate AI policies will be the most important thing and I was a little bit surprised in this election that wasn't uh discussed hardly

at all yeah that's such a good point I I didn't actually think of that but you're right it didn't it didn't come up a tool yeah that's f What how I mean how do you prepare for something like that it would need need to be surrounded by the right people and having the parties well you've got to educate everyone you know you can't count on the technologist to shape these things you know social networking we're still arguing about what the policy should be and you know the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things that even if

they're not at all factual and AI heightens all of that and you know This is an era where getting the politicians to see the technology including all this good stuff personal tutors better Medical Care even making the government more efficient you know this is the most promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork you know AIS actually are pretty darn good at at reading and uh processing uh those kinds of things so you know we're on the precipice of the AI breakthroughs the reliability and uh Capabilities you know it's kind of an extension of what I

worked on as a a child you know personal computers then internet then cell phones uh and now ai but it's because it's it's super intelligence um it's of a different character and we'll it'll put us to the test on how we work together within the US and how how countries work together yeah it's uh interesting because as you talking about social media there I think Mark Zuckerberg on J Rogan was saying That they are taking away their fact Checkers and I believe ax is X is doing something similar what was your take on that you

know this whole thing of how you balance Free Speech versus not you know discouraging people from using vaccines when that would be beneficial for them or even extreme stuff like Holocaust denial or some bad things there I'm a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a clear prescription to how uh we Achieve both the goals free speech and yet uh uh reasonable discourse that's not misleading people I mean during the pandemic you know the negativity about vaccines some of which you know had me being some you know weird Mis behaving actor you know which

was a lot of craziness you know clearly over a million people died who should have benefited uh from the vaccine and next time you know whether it's an outof control AI or the next pandemic the Impact of of not getting facts out could be much more dramatic I mean the next you could have a pathogen that was 10 times or 20 times as fatal as covid was particularly once h comes along the fatality rate is actually reasonably modest and and mostly Elder people so politics meets AI uh is is where a lot of our Fates

will be determined even in the the next 10 years and how do you see a role in that well hopefully there's some things I I Really do uh understand about that and whether it's giving advice to Microsoft in my foundation work on education and health you know using it you know the place where you have the greatest shortage of teachers and doctors is in poor countries in Africa and so the fact that these things you know can give Farmers advice and give a pregnant women advice and look at what your kid is eating and say

no you need more protein in this diet and it's essentially free You know the way that Computing was free that I saw when I was young now we're getting into this even more radical thing of intelligence will uh basically be free you know that that's kind of wild stuff so I hope both with some specific ideas but then with the lessons of a past of you know where we've been able to shape things so far you know so that I think personal Computing has largely been an empowering thing you know I was reading This book

Nexus where Harari says then when the prin press comes along it actually is books about witches uh and how you find witches that are the bestselling so just thinking because we have new capabilities that we necessarily use them at first in a net beneficial way that's sadly a a naive concept yeah that I mean you've raised such a good point there even this idea I loved what you said that you said you wish your generation could have figured Out how to have not have these extreme polarizing conversations but actually find this healthy Middle Ground whether

that be through algorithms whether that be through how we use technology what is it that why do we keep doing that it almost feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across this Horizon of this new world new technology new ideas but then we always use it for almost the same thing or something that feels you know insignificant compared to What it could do where where are we going wrong why can't we get that right well it's kind of amazing how well human is done you know the you know the violent death rate over

hundreds of years have gone down a lot you know more recently we've gotten uh vaccines out to children and gotten the annual death rate from 10 million a year at the turn of the century down to about 5 million vaccines being the biggest uh part of that because we got them out to most of The world's children so Humanity for a a being that grew up in these small Hunter gather groups now you know we have big cities complex technology our ability to get along you know in some ways has been good you know nuclear

weapons that when I was young you know my greatest fear was okay there was going to be a nuclear war and I do worry the current generation uh doesn't have that exposure to it so you know the arms treaties and you know spending too much money on Building those weapons I do worry that we've lost uh track on that one but at least you know we haven't uh used those and you know we've done pretty well so far and you know will we this time I think this is is probably the hardest Innovation because you

know we do have human limitations they even I when I see an outrageous article against somebody I don't like politically I'm very tempted to click on it and have it tell me yeah he's even stupider than you thought or You know he this is a a mistake you know we're all uh subject uh to that and and we do like to form into groups but you know all of humanity ideally is a group where philanthropically and you know government generosity we can think of ourselves being part of that as opposed to much you know our

clan or uh race or Nation yeah I think on a global level it requires what you were saying and on a personal level it requires us to almost be able to evaluate assimilate assess You know have have self-awareness allow for self-reflection space for you know the things we don't have time for anymore you know I was uh looking into something called the third space Theory and how in the past you had your home you had work and then you had church or Temple or Community Center and how those three spaces that third space was a

place you could look back on home and work and say I could treat my wife a little bit better or I could have spoken To my colleague a bit better and that third space allowed that time and energy where it was all about reflecting on how you could improve but today we've lost three spaces into two into one where we work from home live at home and the screen is our third space and so that lack of having a physical body or building that gives you permission to step back from your whole life not play

a role there and and actually purvey what's going on in your life we've lost That yeah that's a shame uh you know the decline of religion is a a very strong Trend you'd hope there'd be a modern religion that takes whatever is put people off and yet preserves kind of this Golden Rule and this okay at a local community level we're supposed to help each other if you expect government to figure out how to solve things you know it's too bureaucratic the local church-based groups oh this person needs help I have extra time you know

is way More effective and so we expect too much from government in a way so I hope we can re-energize you know perhaps through a type of religious modernization or maybe just a community thing that is maybe spiritual but not not uh labeled as as religion that local engagement where you see other people that I think we need more of it absolutely absolutely Bill I've got you for a couple more moments and uh there's a few things I wanted to ask you one was you talked About how in the book how being the smartest person

in the room and that status was something that you may be hid behind and and your insecurities were hidden behind and I was wondering is that something that you've been able to put down that God and and take that away as time has moved on how how were you able to do that yeah I've mellowed a little bit uh you know to learn how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways you know Microsoft I had To get marketing salese at the foundation you know people who go out in the field and do

heroic work and so my you know sort of single view of okay math cap capacity is you know this this great thing I've I've mellowed and you know been able to bring in different skill sets but no I I I started off being pretty bad at that what were those insecurities that you were hiding well you you tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself and so when I Make a mistake in programming or math I'm very tough on myself and you know I'm like you need to spend more time you need to

work harder and it's kind of a tough love don't fool yourself uh thing and so my early management style worked for people like me but not as well for other people and so year by year you know I did grow with Microsoft a lot of entrepreneurs you know don't stay as as CEO and you have to bring in someone else I wanted to do that and so by Bringing in some other people I got better at that I would say moving over to the foundation was another level of how you you bring in uh different

mix of talent and so yeah I'm trying I'm still trying I I I'll be better a year from now well I was most excited that you said there's still two more books coming after this one to talk about the different areas of your life and I I really enjoyed this one so much I'm so excited for people to read it to to get To know you better to get to know the people that have changed your life for the better and allow you to do all the incredible phen Al work you do today and I

I honestly am so inspired by the work you do today and I I really hope that I can uh be involved in some small way so I thank you deeply well thank you it's been fantastic means the world Bill we we end every episode with a final five these questions have to be asked in answered in one word to one sentence Maximum uh so Bill Gates these are your final five the first question is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received you know Finding what you really enjoy doing uh and hopefully there's

some job that that has that uh as opposed to you know what jobs pay well or other people push you to if you're doing something you really enjoy that's hard to beat and you found that early oh I was super lucky on on that you know computers were there uh right When I needed them uh second question what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received people will tell you not to take risks and it's very well-intentioned uh but there are contexts you know when you're young you know like people say okay it must

have been scary to drop out not really I mean I could have gone back you know there's no Flesh Wounds involved uh in in Failure you know so failure's you know probably a better Teacher and and more of an okay thing and I think this whole safety thing physical safety you know emotional safety and many cases that we we've gone too far yeah did but did dropping out that at that time feel like a big risk no it didn't even the first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who Moved their family

and they had kids and I was like if I can't pay this guy's check this is rude you know he's got a real problem and I'm kind of implicitly Promising him I've got this thing figured out uh so that scared me yeah was that there's a scene in The Social Network where you're on stage p and Mark Zuckerberg's in your in the auditorium and then they leave and they say the speaker just said the next Bill Gates could be sitting in this room and then Mark goes that is Bill Gates is that true that is

absolutely true Mark and I have laughed about that a lot that our experience at Harvard dropping out of Harvard you know telling people that hey we saw something other people didn't see uh very very similar uh question number three what would you say is the most important problem the smartest people on the planet should be solving right now there's many candidates you know making sure we don't use nuclear weapons avoid biot terrorism climate change caring for the poorest which we're kind of losing that but I would say shaping AI has for Me uh risen to

the the top of that list I we need to do all those we can't just skip you know the any of those but this one is is going to be a very big deal in in in the next decade and what would be your advice to the biggest Business Leaders in the world in regard to that well I don't think you can count on them their competitive framework is to go full speed and so only government's in a position to say wait a minute slowed down you know for the good stuff you Want them to

lower the price and get it done sooner and so we can't although yes they should be part of the dialogue and they're humans and citizens too but you can't count on them because the metric for them is to go full speed question number four what is your favorite mental health habit you know it's a very big deal for me to get time reading and and thinking by myself whether it's on a walk or going driving when I was CEO of Microsoft I took two full weeks think Weeks one every six months where I would just

go off by myself uh and think okay is Microsoft on track what are the trends towards the end I'd write a memo which actually uh was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists and turns like when the internet comes along or you know software is not reliable enough you know I need that time to think even though I love quick thinking you know being in a meeting and spotting a mistake most of my good work come from The kind of slow thinking where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up with some nonobvious ideas

you know maybe it's a little bit my you know being on the Spectrum I I need that that refreshment you know when I I see my schedule with lots of social interaction for a week then I'll try and make sure the next week has a little bit less of that but you know to maintain creativity you have to have some calmness And be not behind if you feel like you're behind like you turn on your email like ah uh oh I'm late uh you know that that your creativity gets get squeezed out one one of

the first things and does that think we need to be in nature are you away from everything is it are you simply thinking are you taking books are you journaling or is it I'm taking books to read but I'm also taking very long walks um on your own and just thinking about things and I Love I take a tablet of paper and write things down quite a bit and you know I'm I'm pretty religious I'm not taking phone calls I'm not browsing the news you know the news can wait you know I'm off by myself

20 24 hours that whole time uh somebody can stick some food in uh but uh and and you know that's kind of extreme you know there's people like Harari who meditate kind of an unbelievable I almost Envy uh him I Don't think I would go that far but we should be more in his Direction than we are yeah absolutely uh and what what's the book you've gifted most actually I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader you recommend so many great books what's the book you've gifted to people close to you the most there's a

Stephen Pinker book called better angel of our nature uh that talks about even though in the short run we see how tough things are if we zoom out a Little bit and say okay 200 years ago to be a woman to be gay you know 30% of child children die you know lifespan uh is less than 50 years you know that's not saying there's a guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen but people are a little overwrought and saying okay you know this a approach to government is failing maybe we should try

something radical like not you know being fully Democratic I'm like whoa whoa wait a Minute here yes we need to feel bad about the the the things we're not doing but we also need to have a perspective the the system of scientific inquiry and democracy and widening our Circle of Care you know beyond our our family Clan Nation as as we discover new things and we can share more resources that really is working you know it sounds uh naive uh to say that but you know the Books that really go through that uh I I

find you know guide how I think about the world absolutely uh Fifth and final question if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it be well if you look at all these religious texts you know I'd say the the thing they all eventually come back to is is the Golden Rule which is to treat people how you would like to be treated you know I mean say that you're about to be born and you don't know if You're going to be born a woman or an Africa this

is a a thing that Warren Buffett taught me you know what you get to construct the world and how fair it is and then you we will randomly pick and you will be born in some place in some way and you know I think the construct that would guide the world you'd want for that is is very much going back to that Golden Rule not okay let's win Wars you know let's out compete or you know have have More money or resources than than other people and so it's kind of a it's one of the

few Universal truths that um we we should have that guide our Behavior I love that bill thank you so much for your time on on purpose today and genuinely so grateful for your time and energy it was thrilling to talk to you and I love getting an early copy of the book and being ah head of the world on it so thank you so much well you know i' I've loved our conversation so look Forward to more thank you if you enjoyed this podcast you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens

up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing and the four check-ins you should be doing in your relationship we all also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress if you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing this is the episode for you no wonder our kids Are struggling we have a new technology and we've just taken it in hookline and sinker and we have to be mindful for our kids they'll just be thumbing through this stuff you know their their minds never sleeping