Triggernometry Meets Guilty Feminist

You wouldn't say Elon Musk or Donald Trump were far right. Definitely not. But he hasn't been saying anything positive about gay people lately, has he? Um, has he said anything negative about gay people? We killed them. Yes, we committed a genocide. Why were we able to do that? My visceral reaction to a white man sitting and saying to me, "And why were we able to commit genocide on them?" And Then just pausing, yes, is very visceral to me. It's interesting that you brought up my skin color because it's I thought that was the exact opposite

of what the point you're trying to make in the book. You're very reductive. I thought you're a lot more intellectual than this. I think this is very revealing. So, you're not reaching anyone who's listening to this conversation by doing that. My point. So, you don't know that. If you listen to what I was saying, it's Actually perfectly logical and reasonable. It's like controlling what you're doing now. Well, what you said was quite significant. It was quite It wasn't It's not that it was offensive. It was it's scared to me. Deborah Francis White of the Guilty

Feminist podcast. Welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you so much for having me. Well, this is a surprise surprising meeting of the minds because um I think it's fair to say that your Podcast is one of the kind of arch pillars of progressive thought in certainly in our space. Um and you reached out to us saying you have a book out, you want to come and talk to us. It's fair to say that we're not one of the pillars of the woke space in in our space. Uh so what are you doing here? Well, what a great

question. Um uh my good friend Johan Hari told me I should come on your show and I think um had it been with my book The Guilty Feminist, I Would have said probably not. This isn't the right space for it. But my new book is called Six Conversations We're Scared to Have. And it's it's about how I feel about the landscape now. I feel like the the political landscape now. I feel like progressive movements and people who are broadly on the left are fragmenting by uh constantly having I I would say being being obsessed with

trivial pursuits, small level slights, this use Of language, that use of language. Meanwhile, there's this huge polarizing gap that is increasing every day. And we've seen this, you know, in the last couple of months in America, and an extraordinary chasm has opened up between the left and the right. I feel like the far right, which is quite sinister, is is really making gains. And so my book is about how to have conversations better both with people on your side of the divide, but also Reaching across the divide. So I can't really then say you think

differently from me. I don't want to come and talk to you. I that's exactly what I need to be doing. And I listened to your podcast and I also felt like you guys were like reasonable who and I could have a good chat to you. What I'm not interested in doing is uh is you know when you go on the BBC and they say you've got to talk to this person for balance and there's somebody that is actually quite Um like for me someone who goes I don't believe in climate change at all. I uh

I think feminists are and witches. I'm like, well, it's it just would take too long in a 20-minute interview to get there. So, what are we doing? And then I think we're just doing glad gladatorial arena sports. So, but I want to talk to people who I think are intelligent, who think differently from me because otherwise, what are we doing? Just sitting there congratulating ourselves In our little group. Um, and ultimately the reason I wrote this book is because when I was 14, my family joined the Jehovah's Witnesses. And the Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult.

Um, uh, I say that because true, yeah, I it is true. A useful definition of a cult is any group that won't let you leave with your dignity intact. And it's a shaming and shunning group. So, if the elders come around and tell you, and the elders are just some men Who nominate each other in the congregation, um they have regular jobs. They're not particularly trained or anything. And if they come around and tell you your skirts too short or you've got an attitude problem, um and you don't listen, you can be formally shunned. It

means people will cross the road to avoid you, pretend they can't see you. Um it's a name shame shun religion. It's it's very patriarchal. It's run Entirely by men. And I lived in that. I had to get out of it. And I lost all my friends. I couldn't speak to anybody I knew and loved for many years. And I had to start over again. Um and then I wasn't in a cult for a long time. And then in the last 10 years, I have been feeling like I am in a cult again. Um because I

think the world is now a series of interconnecting cults where we're all in our own little group and in order to be part of this group, We have to say these things, repeat these things. If we have questions about these things or we think I don't think that part of it's right. Can I have a reasonable discussion about that? We're often going to be shouted down. And I see that on both sides of the political divide. I see that on the left and I see that on the right. Well, if you think that, you're with

them then. And so that's why I wrote this book. That's a very good point. And I think uh right Now uh that is clearly happening on the right as well. Like I experience this on a daily basis. There's there's a whole bunch of narratives that people on the right in America have about Ukraine. And anytime I'm like, well, factually actually, oh, you're with them then. I I see that a lot. And I think that's human behavior. What I found interesting is, and this is what I'd be keen to explore as part of this conversation, if

you don't mind, is you said in the blurb for Your book that you're not anti-woke. Um, I don't think I would have did I say anti-woke? I don't think I would have used the word woke, but maybe I did. Um, it says in the blur of the book, but we um I guess I guess I'm definitely not anti-woke. No, but I I What I was going to ask you is why is that? Why aren't you anti-woke? Um, well, I think what does woke mean to you? I that's my question. Well, all the very things that

you you said are the reason you wrote Your book. The reason that people would say we're anti-work I'm certainly anti-work. I have no issue describing it is I am anti the oh you use this wrong phrase. Oh, you made fun of this thing that I don't like. Oh, you're not sufficiently inclusive of this blah blah blah. Oh, you know, you're a man. You need to be quiet while other people talk. All of this stuff. I I reject this entirely. I reject the identity politics of it. I reject the censorship aspect of It. I reject the

um the obsession with with victimhood, which I think is damaging and it's making people into victims. That's what I mean by woke and that's what I'm against. Uh so I so I I think the reason I would describe myself as not anti-woke is because I think what a lot of people mean by woke and it's all it's a soup. It's a rich soup. So you can take out certain things and go that's woke. But I think a lot of people see it and go, well, woke is, you know, An idea about gender or an idea

about feminism that I haven't fully explored. It just sounds new or it just sounds, you know, like something that I don't have any particular uh knowledge of or empathy for. So that goes in the work basket because it's new. So, to name something that uh to pull something out of a a hat off the top of my head, um there's a lot of uh diverse casting now. So, I see people getting very angry when they see um a cast on television And they might there might be, you know, a couple of brown and black people

in the cast and they say, "Well, they don't need to be there or this is not historically accurate." And I get very very angry about that. And I I feel very strongly that we want our television to represent the people in our community. I live in London and I have very close friends, chosen family who are black and brown. Some of whom are actors and I want to see them on TV. They're brilliant. And I really notice that when it first happened, I might have noticed it. And then you you get into a show and

you you don't notice. So even if something's set in Victorian times and you think, well, they might not have been black or brown, you just stop noticing and you just see that it's a great performance. And then the other thing is if when you look a bit deeper, you find out of course there were black and brown people in Victorian London at That time. And sometimes people say that person wouldn't have been black or brown. Historically when you look into it, they actually were. So that's an example of something that I think people just go

woke and I think no that that needs more analysis surely fine but uh I I there's a lot to quibble with there which we can but I guess to to most people I I don't think your characterization is quite accurate. I don't think most people's View of what woke is is this thing that they don't understand but because it's new they don't like it. It's more like suddenly we all have to pretend that if you say something that about your identity now it's true. Like if I say I'm a woman I become a woman in

that moment. And a lot of people don't dislike that because it's new. A lot of people don't dislike that because they think it's in fact inaccurate. Sure. Well that's a very very big subject and There's a very very big um chunky chapter on that in my book and I think that's something that what's your argument on that? So what you just said there is uh is if someone says they're a woman, you have to accept it. Is that what is that? Yeah, that's been the line. Trans women are women, right? And if you say otherwise,

you're a bigot. Okay. So what I'm arguing in my book um is I am looking at the the the historical fight For two other sorts of rights that has happened. And I I say in the introduction actually um this is a book of ideas and I know a lot of people will go to this chapter first. It's called the conversation about gender non-conformity. And I say ideally read it in order because I'm building an argument. But if you do go here first and if you are triggered to use the the name of your podcast by

this if this is something that you feel very very Strongly about um whatever side of this wherever in this kaleidoscope of this discussion you're coming from please be aware this is some ideas in a book of ideas this is not the first first to last word this is not a new doctrine that I'm delivering for a new cult This is some ideas in a book of ideas. So this is a complex discussion. So anybody coming in and Going, "You're not a woman. That's the end of it. I don't need to hear anything more about that."

Or anybody coming in and going, "You're not allowed to ask any questions about sport. That's just the end of it." Both of those I would I would question and I would say this is a big complicated topic and in my book this is a book of ideas. This is a book of ideas and this is some ideas about gender. So what are your ideas about it? So I want to bed that down there. Okay. Okay. Um what I'm doing is first of all looking at how the brain works and why our brain is sort of

a prediction machine. It's it's the autocomplete on your phone really. It's always going through the world and it's looking for things that aren't as the brain would expect him to be. So, if you got on a bus and the bus driver was dressed like a clown, you would double take. Now, there's no Reason to suspect that clown is going to hurt you or that there's anything there's nothing porative about the bus driver being dressed like a clown clown. But you would notice if you got on the bus driver was dressed as a bus driver, you

probably wouldn't notice the bus driver at all. If you, you know, if you're in London where you get on off buses and you don't say anything to the bus driver, there's so many people and someone said later, "Who was the bus Driver? What they look like?" You probably wouldn't know. But as soon as they're dressed like a clown, your brain goes, "What? I've got questions." Now, the reason your brain can't do that every time, like a bus, you know, like toddlers go, "A bus, a bus driver." That's because they're still learning what's normal, what's what's

to be expected. So, we can't do that. Our brain's got stuff going on all the time, and it needs to save itself for all this Other work. So, if it's what's expected, it doesn't remark. Um, so if 30% of bus drivers dressed like clowns for a year, you would stop noticing. I don't think I would. No. You You I would continue to notice that they're dressed like for how long? For all eternity because I know what a bus driver is supposed to look like. Ah, interesting. That's So your brain works different from other human beings

then In that case. Uh, if if we accept your premise of how people's brains work. Yes. My my ass to you is that a lot of people have a standard that they expect that they learn at a certain point and they don't stop noticing things being different to that. Like if everybody started walking around naked, I wouldn't stop I wouldn't at one point go actually I don't remember a time when nobody You see what I mean? Uh I do but um I think there's a whole different bunch of Semiotics that go with nudity that don't

go with clown costumes. Fine. Whatever. Let's carry on with you. Please carry on. Okay. Here's an example. In 19 In the 1960s, Mary Tyler Tyler Moore had to fight really hard to be allowed to wear trousers on screen. Mhm. Because people double still double taking at women wearing trousers. When women first started wearing trousers, women were arrested in trousers. Now, and I'll tell You and and it's because that's a gender signifier and it repulsed people. Made it looked weird. Same as long hair. Um uh think about a Victorian man. Have you got a picture of

a Victorian man Oscar Wild in your mind? How long is his hair? Pretty long. Pretty long, right? Um why is short hair masculine? Um I Any ideas? Can you take us back to the trans bear because I'm not following the connection here. Okay. So, I'm I'm Taking you somewhere. Trust me. It's all right. We're getting there. Okay. Um, so the reason short hair is masculine is because in the first world war, men went into the trenches, had to have short hair cuz the lice and then other men who hadn't been down in the trenches wanted

to demonstrate they could be as masculine, they could have survived the trenches. By the 1960s, hair like Oscar Wilds, long Victorian hair, was so fem that when men walk down the street with That longer hair that came in in the 60s, um other men would shout, "Oh, gives you herburg love." And sort of sexist uh heckles. So that's how long it takes to get uh something to be normal or for something to be seen as fem or mask. That's why I say if in if for all eternity you continued to notice clowns as bus drivers

even if you you know you still had comments on them you would start to edit them out because that's because nobody now looks at a man with This sort of length hair and double takes or looks at a woman in trousers and double takes because as a as a society we get used to something. So, anything that's outside the norm, um, what happens is we notice it and each generation has those alarm alerts which is this could be dangerous cuz it's different. Mhm. And we have that with gender in you can see it again and

again and again and again. And we know it's arbitrary because women were wearing Trousers in Asia for hundreds of years when western women were that didn't look it's not it's not something absolutely normal or natural. So uh what we have to do then is look at is there any history of transgenderism throughout the ages? And I looked into this cuz I looked at indigenous societies and I I I thought well there will be some you know people fear what's different. So there will be Indigenous societies where there weren't transgender people accepted. And I looked and

I looked and I looked and I could not find any. It was completely normal in most societies for this to be not a binary theme, for it not to be male and female, but for it to be more like a scale. So if you walk past a building and you know a bar and someone says, "Is it loud in there?" you understand that that person is saying, "Yes, it is loud in there." But they Mean loud for them because there's loud and there's soft. There's high and there's low. There's young and there's old. We're all

old to someone and we're all young to someone, right? We're all old to a seven-year-old. We're all young to an 80-year-old, right? So, we we there's very few things where we go, it's this or it's that. You might have heard of the American twospirit people and a Native American two spirit. You you guys heard of that? Yeah. Um that was created like around in the the '9s at a conference, an LGBTQ plus conference when indigenous people, Native American people were like, "We have to explain it to the Westerners cuz they keep using it was like

a a a sort of slur for indigenous queer people that was often used." And they said, "Right, they see it as this and that. So, let's say we're too." So whenever you hear that third gender in indigenous spaces, It's not really that's that's that's done through a western framework of two and therefore a third. But if you talk to people in indigenous cultures, it's usually it's like it's not a third for us because it's more like a piano scale. So if that is in indigenous cultures, it seems unlikely that there are no people in the

west who also fit somewhere up and down this gender scale. And I think what's happened in The west is the legal framework is you've got to say you're male or you've got to say you're female and that's it. So if I have to be in one of these boxes in order to get any rights, this is the one I belong in because that's the one that feels more like me. But if you take it back to its kind of human roots, we're so obsessed with our own frameworks that we really do think there's no truth

outside them. But one of the the lenses I'm looking at this Through is um I'm adopted. I was given away at birth. In any other time before now, I would have been an orphan. Um Oliver Twist had one living parent. It doesn't necessarily mean both your parents are dead. It means no one in your family can or will look after you. Um and I'm I orphan rights is a fantastic something I've written about in the book. If you look at orphan rights, it's absolutely fascinating. Orphans were massive scapegoats in Victorian times. If you adopt one,

it will infect your children with immorality. Uh they're not a natural child. uh they their mothers were immoral and poor and they will be too and so if you were lucky enough to be adopted in Victoria times you were Janeire so you had to say Mr. and Mrs. read you call them mom and dad. And so if I had been adopted even some decades earlier, I couldn't have said mom and dad and I wouldn't have thought of my Brother and sister as my brother and sister. I would have been constantly told I was a charity

case, I was a wife, I was a stray, I was a bastard, I was an orphan, and my parents would have been my guardians and I would have been their ward legally. And if my mom and dad had gone around saying to people, "This is our daughter," and people had found out I was adopted, they would have thought they were fantasists or liars because you can't argue with biology. Now, at Some point, society just decided that because orphans had such terrible so low self-esteem and 70% of the the um criminal population in the UK in

Victorian times were orphans and because of stories like Jane Air and Oliver Twist, yeah, social activism, all that just decided that children like me should be fully endorsed. And so we did argue with biology and we won. And that is why I have self-esteem and have had a good education and feel completely Endorsed by society. And I didn't even realize I was an orphan until I found my biological mother and found out that from that time some of baby newborn babies of my generation went to orphanages and I cried for like 48 hours because I

was just like I'm an orphan and I could have gone to an orphanage from birth and children who were in orphanages from birth have massive issues as you can imagine because they don't have that attachment and that made Me feel really really sad and really like oh I would be a totally different person and then you can parallel that with gay rights. If you look at the history of gay rights in the 60s, many gay men were broken. Mhm. You know, you watch something like The Boys in the Band, which is a play and a,

you know, it's been made into a movie about gay men in the 60s in New York, and how miserable they were and how much self-loathing there was and how they Kind of went went for each other because there were two options. One was be in the closet, be married, come and get hand jobs under the bridge. The other was be out and be giving the hand jobs under the bridge and that was it. And so the misery those men lived with and the suicide rate and the mental health breakdowns. And we've seen what's happened since

we've endorsed and legalized and for gay men who now live in our society freely and women, but It's easy to see with gay men because of criminalization and decriminalization. And so many, you know, your and my gay friends now will be, you know, running the PTA and, you know, uh, living their living their lives on the outside and being their full selves and not living in depression and marginalization. This doesn't mean there's no homophobia, but it means the legalization and the endorsing of language has functionally changed who is capable of being Productive, happy, whole members

of society. And that's great for society as well as the individuals. So I'm looking at trans rights from both of those those avenues and saying what would happen if we realized that our model is not the only model. There is absolute precedent for human beings to be uh fluid in gender and uh for for them to be gender non-conforming. just as much with orphans. Um, indigenous societies don't have many Indigenous societies they don't have the concept of orphan because the whole community will look after you and your aunt is also your mom type feel. And

so it's a western framework that delivers us orphans. Yeah. I do you see what I mean? I see what you mean but I don't agree. And the reason is that I'm not a western person by birth and Francis has experiences outside and the idea that male and female are western categories is just not it's not true. In fact, I Would not just western, but you see what I mean about indigenous societies. Yes. But indigenous societies are like 0.01% of the entire population of human beings on the planet. And the more east you go, the more

the traditional societies are. And the more the male and female rigidity is enforced. Actually, the west is actually pretty loose about them. The other thing that I don't understand about the argument is that I it sounds to me like we're confusing Gender nonconformity. In other words, a feminine man or a man who doesn't comply with the stereotypes of what we expect of a man and a woman who doesn't comply and wears trousers or whatever with claiming that you are the opposite sex. These are completely separate things. And the third thing is, and we've obviously had

a lot of people on the show to talk about this, um the gay rights model doesn't work very well as a comparison, not least because um it's Actually gay people that are the forefront of opposing trans ideology who and say if I had been alive today as a young person, people would have told me I'm trans even though I'm gay or even though I'm autistic or even though I'm this. And the fourth difference is that um decriminalizing homosexuality was about preventing the ill treatment of gay people. uh when we're talking about uh transgenderism, the way

that we've been talking about it in our societies Until recently until West Street banned puberty blockers is that because we have this ideology of compassion for people who may feel differently, we then would prescribe very significant medical treatments to young children who are not actually capable of making rational decisions about their long-term future. So for all of those reasons, I don't really see the argument that you're making. Let me introduce you to the people I Work with to protect my family against financial instability, inflation, and turmoil. For me, one of the best ways to safeguard

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real physical asset, we highly Recommend the Pure Gold Company. Click the link in the description or go to pure-gold.co/trigger co/trigger to get your free copy of their investor guide. Don't wait until the next financial crisis hits. It's not a question of if, but when. That's pure-gold.co/trigger. Take control of your financial future today. I think you can see the argument that I'm making. You don't agree with the argument I'm making, but you've made Four points there, so I need to take them one by one. What was the first one? So, the first Well, I don't remember

the order in which I made them. Uh I think the first one was that in the idea that the male female binary is a western concept. It's just not factually accurate. Okay. So stop there. Yeah. Um I'm talking about indigenous people who lived all over the world. Yeah. Until we had So when you when you say the trouble the trouble with saying it's not western Is colonization did bring a lot of more fixed ideas. So I'm hold No, hold on a second. Sorry. No, I'm not going to let that pass. Are you saying people in

in the duchy of Muscovi 2,000 years ago? No, no, no. But I only just started the sentence. So I said, for for example, colonization did export a lot of very Christian quote unquote Christian, not not necessarily Christian ideals around the world. So my example was I think it's hard to talk about the whole globe, But um my example was in Australia. Um, you may know Australian Aboriginals have the idea of brother boys, uh, brother brother boys and sister girls. And they are gender queer people. But of course, when you know, let's be honest, white Christian

colonizers came and turned up, they said that's not a thing, and you're not allowed to do that. And and said that that's that's wrong. And there was a lot of shaming that's gone on. Now, that obviously has infiltrated into the Aboriginal population. Now, there's still brother boys and there's still sister girls, but there's a lot of homophobia in the aberiginal population that didn't exist before it was imposed. But you're not addressing my argument. My argument is not that there aren't indigenous communities where these practices exist. My argument is that that is by far and away

a tiny minority of the global population of humans. I don't really understand how that matters Though because it's still the it's still the archaic way people people behave. 99% of people do something and 0.1% of people do something different. Do you know why indigenous populations are so small though? Uh, isn't it? The point I'm trying to make to you, do you know why they're so small? Hold on. Hold on a second. You're Do you know why they're so small? You're deflecting from the argument that I'm making. The Yes, you are. The argument that I made

to you is When you said this is a western concept. I gave you examples. For example, the duche of Muscovi or Russia 600 years ago. So when I say western, yeah, I'm speaking because that's where I'm having the arguments is in the west. Now obviously there are eastern places too, but I'm talking about, you know, western frameworks. It's unlikely I'm going to come in here in Kent and start talking about, you know, Far Eastern. I think you're I think you're misharing what I'm Saying. You made the claim that outside of the West in indigenous societies,

these things are very normal. And the point I'm making to you is while it it may be the case in certain tiny communities that exist hold on hold on a second that exist in certain tiny communities bless you Francis uh outside of the west there are also lots of other civilizations outside of the west where the gender binary that you were talking about as a western concept is actually Much more firmly enforced than it is in the west in the Islamic civilization in the Chinese civilization uh in in Russia all over the world in south

pretty much everywhere. So the bringing up tiny indigenous communities does does not prove the case. Okay. But indigenous communities tend to be I think more it's more archaic. It's more what it what it was before we brought in all these religious framework frameworks. You're still talking about the the the Muslim World. You're still talking about an Abrahamic framework. Okay. What about the Chinese? I don't know. I haven't looked into the Chinese enough 1.4 billion years. Sure. But if you have probably looked into indigenous Chinese culture, you know that archaic before we had a lot of

um you China now is not a great example. I think you'll understand why because of a fairly extreme regime with ex with not great human rights. So I don't I think what I'm trying to look At if you really look at what I'm saying is that there are other frameworks that are perhaps more human that are more less human well they're less they're less driven by control by controlling regime or controlling religions. I get it. But I don't I don't think that makes them more human. If 99% of humans do A, then it seems to

me that A is more human. You must know you're a bright man. You must know. You must know. You're a public intellectual. You must Know that 99% given the recent population boom of of of people under draconian governments under draconian religious binary religious ideals doesn't dwarf an indigenous culture that has been there. Australian Aboriginals are the oldest indigenous culture in the world. Do you know why there's so few of them? We killed them. Yes. We committed a genocide. Why were we able to do that? Why were we able to do that? What are You implying?

I'm just asking you the question. Are you implying because we're better? No. What are you implying? We're technologically far more advanced. That's what I'm implying. What? What's not clear about that? So, you're saying I'm saying we were technologically more advanced. What you So, you're saying we're superior to Australian Aboriginals? That's quite the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm not Saying we were superior. I'm saying we were technologically more advanced. So how how is that the opposite? Superior implies a moral quality. I'm not making any moral implication. You seem to be but what I'm saying is

I think most people would hear it that way. No. Again, you're a very intelligent man. How would most people hear that? Most people would hear what I'm saying for what I'm saying, which is they would. As somebody who comes my mother's South America and I have indigenous heritage, I don't see it that way. A lot of my my grandmother's ancestors were wiped out by the concistadors. Whether it's by they came in, executed them or it was disease brought in by concistadors. I don't interpret it that way if I'm being honest. So why what's the point

of this question now? The point of this question is is cuz we came in with our better gendered binaries and therefore we were able to work a lot better if you just Hear the point I'm making instead of getting I really cannot understand what it could possibly be other than we are better. Well, let me explain it to you what it could possibly be. What's it got to do with the gender binary? uh your argument. I'm we're just talking about the argument and you seem to get quite heated about this which is completely unnecessary. Um

you think it's necessary? U I I am I'm a bit stunned by what you're implying. No, You you're acting in a kind of passive aggressive way which indicates that you're not happy about genuinely be I'm being 100% authentic. My visceral reaction to a white man sitting and saying to me, "And why were we able to commit genocide on them?" And then just pausing, yes, is very visceral to me. Well, let's go back. First of all, it's interesting that you brought up my skin color because it's I thought that was the exact opposite of what the

point You're trying to make in the book. But anyway, let's come back to the argument. You haven't read my book, so you wouldn't know what the point is. You said that the point of your book is it's all about you can't say this as a this person and whatever. But anyway, doesn't matter. You're very reductive. I thought you're a lot more intellectual than this. I think this is very revealing. But let's come back to the argument. The Argument you were making was that the Aboriginal society and other indigenous societies as you call them were more

human because whatever reason and they were therefore models for emulation. I don't think I said more human. I said there is something fundamentally human. You said more human. Yeah. about there's something fundamentally of of how humans are before there's a whole heap of religious imposition and a whole heap of Totalitarian imposition. That's what I'm saying. I think we can learn a lot from indigenous societies. I don't think you can say there's fewer of them, therefore they don't count what I said when they were I didn't say they don't count. What I said is if 99%

of a population if if 99% of pandas eat bamboo shoots, it's fair to say that eating bamboo shoots is the standard panda behavior. It's the more panda behavior, then the 1% or the 0.1% They eat dog turds for a living. Okay. So, what what about if pandas had been in an artificial environment for a long time and couldn't get bamboo shoots and were eating something else? But I could show you that pandas originally and some pandas for thousands of years. Old the oldest pandas in the world live in Australia and those pandas still eat bamboo

shoots and always have done that would be something interesting for you as an intellectual, wouldn't it? Uh so the fact that pandas at one point ate but something other than bamboo shoots, I mean your idea that everything since the Aboriginals is an artificial environment, well those societies were artificial in their own way, too. Yeah. I'm not saying anything as as rigid as what you're imposing onto me. I am I'm talking through things and around things. Right at the top, remember when I said, "Yeah, this is some ideas in a book of ideas." Exploring your ideas,

Would you? In a way though, what you're doing is you're going, "Ah, you've said this thing and this thing isn't isn't everything." And so I would love it if we could genuinely talk. I'm trying and you could I'm trying to address your argument, right? I gave you four arguments in response to the things that you said and I we've only really got to one. Well, yes, because you got upset at me saying something about the Aboriginal. What were you meaning by That? What were you meaning by why were we able to I already told you

what I meant by that commit genocide? We were technologically far more and what's that got to do with it? Well, if a civilization is able to produce things like penicellin and the the ability for its children not to die in childbirth, I think that indicates that that civilization has something positive about it. The fact that the western civilization has created the incredible Material benefits and also other benefits of every kind that we now enjoy says something about the utility of that civilization and that world view which is that it is very good for human beings

which is one of the reasons that millions of people travel many of them risking their lives from other parts of the world to our societies today. Okay. So, so all okay. So, Aboriginals didn't need penicellin because they didn't have any of the diseases and they were living An incredibly brilliant nomadic life. So, that they would what they would do is they would use a certain area then they would move on and then they would come back. So, they didn't have any problems with holes and ozone layers, any problems with climate change, the incredible raging bush

fires across America, across Australia right now, they didn't have that. So, we brought in as uh more problems than we did solutions. Right. Uh well, I don't know. I don't know that that's true. It depends which indigenous community you're talking about. If you look at Native Americans, for example, they were doing they were just as brutal as Westerners in many ways. They had slavery. They they murdered each other on a regular basis. They went to war. All of these things existed and they had of course their own diseases. Completely different discussion. No, it's not a

completely different discussion. We Brought the diseases that required the penicellin. Well, I was certainly not invented when we committed genocide on Australian Aboriginals. I don't understand your point. My my point is we we were technologically far more sophisticated. So, this celebration of indigenous cultures as these possessors of all things of value from which we should now take learnings and apply them to our society and that's why we need to give 12-year-olds puberty Blockers is not a very strong argument in my opinion. It's not anything like what I said though, is it? Well, that was the

argument that I brought up. I really thought you were going to be open to me. I'm extremely open to it. But you have to make a rational argument that persuades me. Okay. So, I made lots of really interesting new arguments you'd never heard before. I have heard lots of those arguments. You haven't you haven't heard you haven't heard about you know Which arguments I've heard because it's because I live in this world and the adoption argument is I'm the first one making it that I am. I don't know that argument is not one I've ever

heard and I it was interesting but that wasn't the argument that I responded to. I remember I responded to your argument about native indigenous people having some kind of great wisdom that we should learn from. That was the argument we were talking about. Hold on a second. You believe that? I I don't. I do. That's fine. I don't. But look at look at the if you look if you go to if you go to Peru, it's the indigenous people who are who are who are looking after the Amazon and who are defending it from just

huge sways of it being destroyed. Sure. With all with all that they can. Yeah. Yeah. I should actually take back what I said in that I don't think we have nothing to learn from them. Uh but I think the implication that because They're indigenous we should learn for everything. But I'm I am suggesting this is something we could learn. It is not I'm saying it's not the only framework. The only framework isn't women men. It's not the only framework. So I'm I'm demonstrating to you through my research that there are other frameworks that you may

be interested in examining in case there's something interesting. So how is it that they woke up and felt like that? But nobody now in the 21st century is Going to wake up and feel like that. It's impossible. It's impossible that we all fit into one of these boxes. And the same people who don't like um trans people saying I'm a woman don't like the non-binary category, which is an attempt to say, "Hey, I don't feel like either of these categories." Go, "No, you can't be that either. You have to be in the one box we

put you in." I've never said that at all. I You may not have, but So, but we're having the conversation with Me, so let's just stick with that. The second argument I made was about you're unbelievable. Like what? You literally started by saying why am I not woke? And I said because people these are the kinds of things that people who say I'm anti-woke say. And you might not say that but you do know a lot of people who are anti-woke say non-binary isn't a category. They do. Uh yes definitely. So I am suggesting that

it is not possible that indigenous cultures that have Survived to this day, Aboriginals being the oldest in the whole of the history of the planet have people within it who have have a tradition of gender fluidity but nobody feels gender fluid today or nobody feels gender non-conforming today. Of course some people feel gender non-conforming. What are they meant to do? Of course. And if you remember at the very beginning I said that there is some confusion I think in in our discussion here between people who don't Fit into the stereotype of what a man should

be and a stereotype of what a woman should be and someone who claims to be the opposite sex. That's I think quite an important distinction. I don't see it as the opposite sex. I don't think there's opposites. I think that I think it is far more fluid than that. And I think you don't think there's opposite sex. So you don't think there's male and female? I I just think it is more fluid than that. And I and I trust People when they tell me that is not how they feel inside. And much like the idea

of an orphan, which again did not exist in the in the indigenous cultures I've researched, that just didn't that wasn't really a thing. It wasn't something you could identify as it. It you were taken care of by the community. It's our framework that requires I've got to feel like one of these two. And so some people have now said, can I be this third category? And then people go, "No, You've got to be one of these two, and it has to be the one you say you are. And that makes people unhappy the way it

made gay men unhappy to not be able to say who they were. It's making them unhappy. And I don't understand why we need to scapegoat people who say that they're telling. I don't I definitely don't think we should be scaping anyone. Uh at the same time, because we treat men and women in society differently, uh the claim that you're a woman has Consequences, not only for you personally, but also for the rest of society. It entitles you to certain protections that men don't enjoy. It entitles you to access to certain spaces that men don't have

access to. And that's really I think the big debate when it comes to adults. When it comes to children, there there is a question about whether children are able to make these decisions uh in a way that the decisions that they make which then have Lifelong implications particularly when it thinks it comes to medical uh which I talk about in my book that um uh very very very very few tiny percentage of uh of it's not children but of teens uh do ever seek medication and even a tinier percentage of those have have gotten medication.

Um if if uh puberty blockers have been given incorrectly, have been pushed on anybody um which they have, then that is malpractice and that should be stopped. That is that is malpractice. But it's a logical consequence of the claim that if somebody says that they feel a certain way, then they are that thing. It's not what the it's not what doctors who prescribe them have said to me. They they've said that they only give uh puberty blockers if that ch if that young person is absolutely adamant and on the cusp of you know self harm

and they just can't live any other way. If you it it's it is just we've had Hannah Barnes on here who did the BBC report into all of this and she was told that at the Tavveristock clinic some children were given puberty blockers if I'm not mistaken after two consultations. Yeah. Well, I talk about the Tavvertock comm um Tavvertock in my book. But what what I'm saying to you is it's a logical consequence. But that's that's is not a logical consequence. It's malpractice. Okay. Malpractice is two consultations and we give you No, it's not a

logical Consequence. It's malpractice. And if we find that there's a hospital near here and they there's been malpractice in, you know, hip surgery, we don't close it down and say no more hip surgery for anyone. We say we need more safeguarding. We need more training. We need to make sure there's no malpractice. Far more people regret surger hip surgery than they do surgery to transition actually. All right, we're About half an hour in and Francis hasn't said a word. So, how about you have this? Reminded me of my childhood. So, thank you both. Um, the

thing that the issue that I have with with wokeism is I think you're very accurate in the way you describe it as a cult. And by the way, like we've said before, we see the same things on the right, particularly when it comes to the right in America where some very ugly thing, very ugly things are starting to Manifest, things that we both feel deeply uncomfortable with. But let's just focus on wokeism for the moment. The the the thing that I have the most the thing that wokeism really makes me feel really uncomfortable is cancel

culture, which seems to be part and parcel of that particular ideology. And as somebody who has seen communism and the ultimate form of cancel culture, I find it deeply sinister and the fact that it's marketed as being kind or Progressive, I think is actually gaslighting. It's not kind and it's not progressive. I'll use an example. Joe Lyset, the very famous UK comedian, said that cancel culture has made the UK comedy industry a kinder and better place. has done none of those things to strip somebody of their livelihood and destroy their career and impact not only

them but their families, their children. I'd see nothing kind or better about that. So, I have a chapter about this in My book, um, a whole chapter on cancel culture. And, um, the problem I have with cancel culture is the same problem I had with being a Jehovah's Witness. Mhm. Um the wisdom is dispensed from on high. If you don't agree with it, you're told to listen to apologize. If you won't apologize, you kind of get marked. Uh if you continue not to apologize and you're even even though you know you're not really allowed to

present your side of The story and you can be completely shunned and that's the same model as a high control group. And then we have to ask the question, what do we do if we know we have a predator in our midst? If if you know, I'm on certain comedian WhatsApp groups and women look out for each other and they say, "Look, this happened to me. It was an unpleasant experience. I don't want to say anything about it. He's quite powerful comedian, but I just want You to know that if you are in a car

with him or you, you know, you might want to get a lift with somebody else." So that goes on all the time. We tell each other, don't want to say anything about it, can't prove it, but we give each other those heads ups. And because say Joe L is talking about the comedy community, the comedy community had has for many years before the Me Too movement, it was just a free-for-all. There was literally nothing you could Say. Even if you made a sort of mild remark about I remember doing it about things being harder for

women or there being no women invited onto this bill even though so and so and so was so were free and they're very well known to be good. You would be I mean I was basically shunned once in Edinburgh for saying something like that about an improv thing and people were would not talk to me in the bar because that that was the strangle hold. anytime you get a Kind of absolute power model that power will be abused and that power has been abused and it was abused. So I think the me too movement was

very important to address that. So what do we do when there's a predator in our midst and the law doesn't really want to do anything about it or they say well there's no evidence for that or there's no will um to do anything about it or you can't prove it. What do we do? And so that's what that's what that chapter is Analyzing. But ultimately we there's a there's a whole section I've got on jurist prudence and how um there's a there's a there's a lot of evidence that prisons are really there's sort of an

overhang from Victorian times when when we warehouseed people we didn't know what to do with. So you'd put children in the orphanage and you'd put poor people in the workhouse and you'd put people who had mental health issues into a sanatorium and throw away the key. And Prisons are sort of the only one left. And certainly there are some people who need to be taken away from society because otherwise they will really hurt people. But most people are better off with community intervention because otherwise what happens is you take someone out of the community who

was causing trouble in the community or hurting people in that community. You put them in a place that is totally lacking in empathy. And so their problem Was they were lacking in empathy. You put them in a place where they are brutalized, where they are, even if they're not physically brutalized, they're emotionally brutalized. Then you say, "Okay, you've done your time and we now, having made you less empathetic, put you back into that community." We know that community intervention is better and crime doesn't go up. So I talked to um a really interesting guy called

Jared Bartle who's a jurist Prudence expert in um Australia and he said in during CO they let a lot of people out of prisons and gave them ankle bracelets and you know did community intervention stuff instead and the crime rate didn't go up at all. People are pe most people are much better off in their own communities. And so what the problem with counterculture is is we go, we don't want that comedian in our midst anymore. So we shun him and he goes over there. Where does he go? He Doesn't leave Earth. So if he

is a predator, he's now going over there to do predator predator things. He's not left. He's just You've moved the problem on over there. But now he's getting more and more and more and more bitter and he probably hangs out with the two or three other guys who are in the same position. They exacerbate each other. They get less empathy, not more. what they needed was more empathy to go, don't do that. That's really horrible for them. And Then you've they get sidelined in the comedy community. So you make the problem worse, you just shift

it over there. So what we need in the comedy community, I think, is is community intervention. If someone's done something criminal, we need to act on that. But if someone hasn't done something criminal, they're just uh they're just making life awful for the people around them, then we need community intervention. Ask 10 people to define capitalism and you'll probably get 10 different answers. It's a word that gets thrown around constantly, but how many people actually know what it means? That's why I've been watching the free online course from Hillsdale College called Understanding Capitalism. In seven

lectures, it breaks down not just what capitalism is, but also why it works. I found the course does an incredible job of making complex concepts like the Market economy understandable. You'll learn about the role of profit and loss, why capitalism depends on private property rights and the rule of law, and why, despite what you might hear online, capitalism is a system that encourages morality, not undermines it. And this is just one of over 40 free online courses that Hillsdale College offers. You can learn about the US Constitution, the Book of Genesis, the Roman Republic, even

the history of the ancient Christian church. Go right now to hillsdale.ed edu/trigger to enroll in this course, understanding capitalism. There's no cost and it's easy to get started. That's hillsdale.edu/trigger to enroll for free. One more time, that's hillsdale.edu/trigger. But I think the problem is, and we've had many psychiatrists talking about this, when it comes to sex-based crimes, It is pathological. It's very likely that if you are a sex offender, you're a sexual predator, you're a rapist, it escalates and you will remain like that for the rest of your life. We had Dr. Steve Peters talk

about this. So if somebody is a rapist, I don't think that's the same as I'm not saying it. They're difficult. They're they're they're there were lots of men in comedy before me too and some of them still do, but who were kind of predatorial. I Think that's a totally That's what I If it's something criminal, we need to work on that. We need to we need to actually get that sorted and get that solved and that person does need to be removed. Uh and whatever rehabilitative work can be done should be done. I think that

our whole justice system is screwed in that way and our whole idea of prison making anybody get better is absolutely screwed on that. I think um but that's a whole dismantling of a system. But there are all sorts of things on the spectrum there. Again, it's a spectrum. It's not you are or you aren't. You're in or you're out. And so I think cancel culture, a lot of people who are abolitionists and want to, you know, don't don't like the way don't like prisons, don't like the way the police operate are really really happy to

have some quite brutal cancel culture moves made. And I think they they are at odds, aren't they? Yeah. to Me and this was my problem with me too, not at the beginning but where it ended up where I had a friend who was in the comedy community who was in the comedy industry. He's no longer in the comedy industry and I'm not using his name but he was effectively cancelled because women said that they felt awkward around him. Female comedians did because he stood too close to them and talked to them. He had autism. That's

what he did to everybody. That's what he did to me. And this entire campaign was then started. his reputation was destroyed. He nearly had a breakdown. He nearly lost his job because he's socially awkward. Well, if that's the case, that's terrible. Like, I I don't know that I don't know the details of that case or what else what else women were saying. So, I don't want to I don't want to overly, you know, you can't say his name and I I don't know the details, but if that's the case, that's terrible. And So, I the

thing is I I am a progressive person who's known to be a public feminist. Yeah. And I am I it got to the point where I couldn't do the kind of work I'm doing anymore in that space without saying what's going on with cancel council culture because at the beginning of me too it was really writing historical wrongs and drawing attention to something and shining a light but like anything any any tool in the World can be used as a weapon and will be used as a weapon. That's how human beings are. So someone can

have a, you know, great tool to get the weeds out of the garden or plant tomatoes or whatever, but that can be used as a weapon. And me too is an incredible tool that has been used for great things. Otherwise, Harvey Weinstein would still be out destroying careers and and sexually assaulting people. But like any tool, it can be Used as a weapon. And if we don't want the baby to be thrown out with the bath water, we are going to have to let the baby grow up. I agree. And then also there was this

and it still happened. Now let's take the case of Alfie Brown. Do you remember do you remember that case of Alfie Brown? So I I'll explain to you what happened to Alfie and then we can and then we can discuss it and I'm going to be factual. Alfie was doing a preview at A comedy club of his show. He did a number of jokes, basically jibes, very funny actually, jokes about Corbyn, the Corbynista government, insinuating that he was anti-Semitic. It then went on to Twitter. There was a back and forth on Twitter. People then started

to dig up old interviews of Alfie during in podcasts. They also an old routine was dug up where the premise of the routine was I think that if you wanted to have a Good slur, you needed a hard consonant. A good racial slur, you needed a hard consonant. That's why all the racial slurs had hard consonants in them. And he just went through all of them. And he said, and that's that is why all all slurs have hard consonants. M he didn't execute it particularly well. This was a routine that was over 8 years old.

It was then dug up and it was then used to prove that he was a a racist and then it was then used to cancel him. His shows Got pulled, lost opportunities, blah blah blah. I have a real issue with that and people claiming that they were offended and that's the reason. As somebody who has been called many of those slurs, as someone who uh looks Jewish, I get more than my fair share of anti-semitism online. And as someone with a Latin American background, I also get that as well. Online, Twitter, X, whatever you want

to call it. Social media is accessessible as we all Know. And I have a real issue with that. I have a very very real issue with that. that suddenly you can claim to be offended by something by something that happened years before and then use it to destroy somebody's career just because you felt offended. Well, I'm going to go on a large limb here and say I don't think Alfie's career is is destroyed. Alfie's a working comic. He's doing all right. No, he lost a lot of opportunities at the time. Gigs were Cancelled. Sure. I'm

sure it was I'm sure it was unpleasant, but I don't think it's in the realm of in it's it's not in the realm of a Louis CK who is also back and has won a Grammy. So, I think that's the other thing we do need to contextualize. But that's an unfair comparison because Alfie did nothing wrong and Louis CK did do something wrong. But I'm that's what I'm saying. It's a spectrum. So, like let's talk about it as a spectrum. It's not a it's Not a it's not a kind of black and white. I think

if people are going to go back in time and dig stuff up and um uh you know with with an agenda um it's because they know what they're doing and that's a decision they're making and that is a that is a part of modern life um that it's unpleasant in terms of I'd say it's more than unpleasant Deborah. It's more than unpleasant. It is reputation destruction that is No, I understand what you're Saying. I'm just trying to think it through. I think fair enough. I think it's uh as I say, Alfie's working and Alfie's Alfie's

very successful. I don't think it's I think it's it's not as um it's it's not like a permanent cancellation. But I also think so I have a book I have a chapter in the book called Freedom of Speech in Comedy. Mhm. And one thing that I say in that cuz I I'm a I mean I think people always you Know sometimes the BBC will ring me up and say they can't you know uh they they uh maybe it's cold outside is being banned on the radio. Um and uh we want you as a feminist to

say that that's a good thing basically is what they're saying. And I'm like I'm not going to like what why do you think they want me to be Mary White House and I'm like I'm a Gen X comedian. I'm not in for banning stuff. It's just not who I am. But they misunderstand. They see feminist and They go, "You'll want to ban Baby. I won't want to ban Baby Scot." And when you look into it, it's not being banned. It's uh they've it's, you know, it was the Me Too era where they were like, "Let's

curate something else this year. Let's just do Jingle Bell Rock instead. It's probably a little tonedeaf at this particular time in history." Is all that's going on. Um but, uh I don't want to ban stuff. I don't want to dig stuff up on people. I also find it slightly Disturbing when I see ah but you know this guy's going to be booked on SNL but 10 years ago he did this tweet that was clearly an edge joke but it also I don't think that that man is genuinely gets up every morning is motivated by racism.

So, it's a it's it's a it's it's an area where I go I feel like it's it's it's it feels like a really unpleasant part of modern life that people are on line trying to be private detectives to try and destroy You over this because I really want to get you for that and I don't I don't like it. I don't endorse it. I also think comics, some comics say stuff that they don't really understand or care how how what they are saying might land as every tool is a weapon, right? So to a joke

can be a tool can also be used as a weapon. Um so I would say Jimmy Carr's joke. Did you see that big Thing about Jimmy Carr? So, in his big Netflix special in his Netflix special, it's called his dark material and it's specifically it's about being able to do dark material about edgy stuff. That's what it and he really contextualize it. He goes, "This is the joke that's going to end my career." And uh he I break down the whole joke in the book, but it's he goes um he's like um in the Holocaust.

Then he looks to camera like, "Yeah, I'm gonna go there in the Holocaust." And he he says, uh, people always talk about 6 million Jews being killed, but they rarely talk about the I can't remember what it is, but the the the hundreds of thousands or millions of, um, gypsies that were killed. And then there's a gap. And then he goes, because no one ever wants to talk about the positives. When people talk about the Holocaust, they talk about the tragedy and horror of 6 million Jewish Lives being lost to the Nazi war machine, but

they never mention the thousands of gypsies that were killed by the Nazis. No one ever wants to talk about that because no one ever wants to talk about the positives, right? And uh then he tries to explain why that joke is very clever, very funny, why it's educational, and why it's so good. And of course, it caused a huge fery. And even the comedians that kind of stood up for Jimmy on a basic Jimmy's my mate uh sort of basis, no one really stood up for the joke because the joke is not funny enough. It's

not it's not to be worth that that that level of nastiness when Amnesty International have said that Romney people, traveling people who Jimmy calls gypsies and um some people own that term and some people don't so I won't. Um that uh amassy says Romney people are the most disenfranchised, the most overly criminalized population in This country. They have the least protections. They don't have famous people standing up for them and famous rep they don't have representation. Now that joke we know will no doubt be used in the playground against a kid because Jimmy said it.

The audience has laughed because it's edgy. Mhm. And they've laughed in shock. They can't believe Jimmy said that. That's where the laugh's coming from and that's where Jimmy wants the laugh to be coming From. Jimmy doesn't want to hurt Romany people. Jimmy doesn't care about that. He just doesn't. That's not what he's doing. He's doing a shock joke and that's his joy and that's his bliss and that's what he wants to do. But what I'm asking is um I don't want anything banned, but I want comedians and I want broadcasters to ask about what they're

curating and to again like I say to the me too movement, if you're not going to throw the baby out with a bath water, Let it grow up because that will be used as a grenade for sure in the playground against you know Romany kids that are there. It's like, oh, we never want to want to talk about the positives. And then the teacher come along. They go, I was just saying what Jimmy Carr said, and if multi-millionaire Jimmy Carr in his Ammani suit standing on stage at the Hams of Apollo with a multi-million dollar

Netflix special can say it, why can't this kid? So, and and that kid may Come from a community where he hears a lot of racism about Romney people, right? So, I'm asking I'm not saying ban anything, but I'm just saying think about what we're saying because yes, we should be free in comedy to go wherever we want. That's the art form, blah blah blah blah blah. But we're also free to drive a car, but we also understand there are rules and and also conventions about not driving like an if it it's going to really inconvenience

or Hurt somebody else. We know that. That's that's understandable. A lot of comedians are better people driving to the gig than they are at the gig. And that just makes me go, hm, I wonder why you're doing that. I wonder why you're not choosing to be as funny about something else that isn't going to probably have a real world knock-on effect. So, I would say to Alfie, I bet you anything Alfie would go, "That joke wasn't good enough, and I don't know why I did it, and I was experimenting with being edgy." I doubt Alfie

would stand behind the joke or is still doing the joke about all the slurs and from 8 years ago he no longer does that when he was a younger man. And this is incredibly pertinent to the argument at a different time society. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is going to sound weird coming from me, but I think you on the on the most of it you're actually agreeing. So me playing Peacemaker here is is strange. But I I think actually what I'm hearing from Deborra is you agree cancelelling people is a bad idea. But what I

this is something Francis and I have said from day one, which is I think cancel culture, first of all, it's a human thing anyway. But also it emerges from the gap between what we can prosecute legally and what we know is wrong and immoral behavior that can't be punished through the legal system. The legal System does not cover all forms of bad behavior effectively, right? And so it was an attempt to deal with things that were sitting under the surface that couldn't be dealt with through the criminal justice system. sometimes just aren't like they the

you know let's be incredibly honest about the rate the the the conviction is so low most people won't even most women won't report because they just know their lives are going to be destroyed and they will not Get any satisfaction that's what primacy the play was about it's just so rare so yes there will be men for example in the comedy community who are you know criminals but there's nothing we can do about it because they're not going to be convicted or we can't prove it in a way that you know the court expects us

to and actually everyone also in in the British judicial system now has to watch primacy before they do a trial to understand that is policy to Understand how difficult it is for someone to come forward and then how difficult it is to go through that and how unlikely it is that they'll ever get any justice. So um you know we are We are dealing with an incredibly broad spectrum of from and this is the problem with it really. We all know that that man has been accused of a number of women but nothing is done.

Nothing continues to be done. And somebody made A really quite nasty, tasteless joke, but it was eight years ago. He doesn't stand behind it. He'd like to get it taken off the internet. He's happy to apologize for it. and someone's dug it up because they've got a different beef with him now. Yeah. And can we see the kind of the spectrum that we're playing in? And this is why I think we need we just need more nuance. And in all of these things, I just think we need more discussion because it's not either or And

it's not this or that. It's it's crunchy stuff that we want to think it all through. We want to we want to we want to really sit with it and go, what kind of society do we want to be? And we want to take into account all of these things. We do want to take into account how indigenous people lived and if there's anything we can learn. And we do want to take into account that comedy's crunchy and contravening norms is something that comedy has always Done. But but society has changed and now you know

it used to be that Lenny Bruce would say the unsayable and there was one space for that and it was a basement comedy club. And now look at the internet. What is unsayable? There's nothing that you're saying that's so edgy that isn't said every single day on Reddit. You do not need to perform the service of saying the unsayable every day anymore. People are saying all sorts of nasty stuff. And I Think, you know, the idea that that comedy is for, you know, oh, we've got to all be transgressive in this space. I'm like, the

most transgressive thing now is to be not transgressive. Actually, when you look at people's daily life and what they're looking at on Pornhub and and Quorum Cororum and Reddit and, you know, all of these different different spaces, if you if you're still on X, bloody hell, like everything is every unsayable thing is Being said all of the time. Well, the left did a thing about it obsessed with virtue signaling for ages, which is signaling how good of a person you are. What's happening on the right now is there's an obsession with vice signaling, which is

uh the the more transgressive the thing you say, the cooler you are. And so people are starting to say all this moronic stuff. Not even often because they believe it or anything else, not even if it's funny Or not. They're just saying it because it's transgressive and that's the only purpose of it. Um which is obviously totally pointless and and a giant waste. And it's made I uh it's made a lot of social media which I actually always always enjoyed. There's always been robust debate and all of this stuff and I I never mind people

having a go at me and whatever. Um but I think it's just made the whole environment very um first the most the worst thing about it is Made it very inauthentic. It's made it very inauthentic in the you're not actually talking to human beings. You're just talking to people who are trying to say something like that. But anyway, uh we've talked about two of the six conversations. We talked about trans as much as we could and we talked about cancel culture. What else have we not covered? Um so, uh the first chapter, there's some interesting

stuff in there about how modern life is, um modeling Cults. Um and one of the things that said a lot is just just picking up on what you said there is that people often say uh the internet makes us less empathetic or social media makes us less less sympathetic. And there was in fact a study done in 2009 that said people are getting less empathetic. And actually when you look into it and I've broken it down on in the book um it didn't really prove that at all. Um, but it it you know, you can

read about in The book. But what I'm arguing there's then there was another study. It didn't say that the internet had made it just posited that, but it didn't actually look at that. And then there was another study that looked into it and found that social media made children more empathetic. And uh so I started looking at that and I what I discovered and what I'm arguing is that every single day social media which we think oh makes you less empathetic trolls and keyboard Warriors every single day it demands that you be more and more

empathetic but to fewer and fewer people. Yes. Yeah. So uh I one thing I argued about argued against in 2016 when it came up. So I started the guilty femist in end of 2015. 2016 it was kind of in full swing and this men are trash hashtag came up and I was like guys what do you think a 14year-old boy who's just trying to figure out how to be a man just I don't know he's a nice guy he Isn't in his little self but he's probably just a little complicated person who isn't anything yet.

He's just figuring out how to be a human being and how to be a man. How was that how was that landing with him? I'll be honest with you, Deborah, as someone who was in their mid-30s at the time and has always, you know, I'm not saying that I've succeeded, but I've always tried to be a good person and do my best. That really picked me off. It me off because I and what I was saying at the time was, okay, so there's there's again, it's not binary. I don't really believe in this sort of

it is that or it isn't that. We're all on a spectrum. We're all flawed. We're we're all we're all doing our best. There are some people probably on polar opposites who just get out of bed every day to make other people happy or some people who are blatant sociopaths and who um you know psychopaths who are not empathetic at All. But most of us are in the middle. We we we've got some love. We've got some fear and all the other emotions are those two emotions in costumes. Um that's what I think. It's just we're

all we're all trying to struggle through. So for me, a 14-year-old boy hearing that, just to use the most extreme example probably, I I I feel like what he's hearing is you can't be any better than you are on your worst days. And if you're on your best day and you're Really trying hard or you advocate for somebody else, um it doesn't really matter cuz we're going to see you as trash anyway. And I said at the time, and I said it on other people's podcasts, I was begging people to stop using it, begging feminists

to stop using it. And they I think they were kind of riding high a little bit on what was happening in the world. And you know, there was a time of, you know, a little bit of getting our own back. I Think that's what was going on at that time because women had felt not listened to, not heard. It was before me too. Um we all we'd had is a march. If we'd even had a march then. We had probably hadn't even had a march then. We did we have our March 2018 so we probably

hadn't even had a march. It was it was so it was such a time of kind of clawing for something but I was saying at the time that 14year-old boy that's what he's hearing and guys who are really bad who Hurt women when they are um caught I know this is true psychologists and also I had somebody in my show from the government where they specifically work on this problem. Um this is absolutely true. Men who hurt women when psychologists work with them truly believe that all men do it or want to do it but

just aren't man enough quote unquote. That's what they think. So when you tell men are trash, The ones who do hurt women are hearing that and going, "Yeah, all men are trash." So when men say to me, "Not all men." I go, "Yeah, we know 100% of the men I've been with have not killed me. I I know. I I live with men. I work with men. I get in a cab. I know it's not all men." I want men who are basically good guys who wouldn't hurt women to tell the other ones, not all

men. Cuz the ones who do hurt hurt women, they think it is all men. They're the ones you need to Tell. You don't need to tell me. I know it's not all men. I think it is the minority of men who are violent towards women. M and by the way male onmale violence is a is you know much higher than male on female violence. It is a male problem but the truth of the matter is if men stop killing killing would stop. Very very few deaths are from women and generally it's either women in self-defense

or in coercive control situations under the grip of a man. That Is the that's the fact. So it is not all men. Please tell the men it is it's not all men because I they don't hear me because I am the other to them. We'll get you back to the interview in just a sec. But first, imagine this. You're walking down the street. There's a giant billboard with all your personal details on it. Your passwords, your credit card numbers, your bank login just there for anyone to see. Sounds insane, right? Well, that's basically What you're

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Even when I'm traveling, I know I'm protected. Secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com/trigger. That's exvpn.com/trigger to find out how you can get up to four extra months free. One more time, expressvpn.com/trigger. Sorry. Do you have a point? No, no, no. The point that I was going to make was That the the thing that I knew was going to happen was there was going to be a backlash. There is only so long you can tell a group of people Mhm. that they are wrong, evil, stupid, disgusting simply through the fact that they have these

immutable characteristics before they turn around and go, "You know what? you and I see Andrew Tate as part of that backlash if I'm being honest. Well, because and people and by the way I am no fan of Tate. I want to make that Absolutely clear. But to me when people go this is awful. Of course he's awful. That is a symptom of a backlash. Tate isn't the problem. The problem is what is underneath that that has given rise to his prominence. I would suggest that we cannot blame feminism for the manosphere. the manosphere is is

far too I'm not blaming feminism. I'm blaming all men are trash and that kind of punitive vengeful those punitive vengeful movements have created a Backlash. That's my argument. I would say that misogyny is a deep and vast mine and I don't think you can really blame very recent feminist marches and some hashtags for it. It's much deeper than that. Andrew Tate is much deeper than that. It hasn't helped. I'll give you that. And I was saying it I was saying it all through that. was going we you know those 14-year-old boys now they were 16

then how old are they now going to be 24 25 And a lot of them are looking to Jordan Peterson a lot of them are looking to Andrew Tate and that to me again is a spectrum of manospheric ideas and then that bleeds into Zuckerberg going we need more masculine energy at Facebook I've worked at Facebook they do not need any mascul actually it's interesting you bring up Jordan and Andrew in the same sentence because I actually see the distinction between the two of them as very telling Jordan Peterson Was a a male role model

for men of our generation, some men of our generation, uh a very constructive figure who told them how to be better um and taught them certain values and importance of you know there's a clip we had somebody on our team who had a baby recently and I sent him a video of Jordans's uh talking about uh the most important thing when your child is born is to look after your wife. Uh that's your job. obvious your number one job. So he he had a very Positive impact on young men. Uh the next generation's male role

model is Andrew Tay. And I think that that difference and that negative evolution is precisely the point that Francis is making. I never really felt that the all men are trash thing was an attack against me. But there are a lot of young men younger than us who did feel that. And that thing you're talking about about vengefulness, it's the thing that we find very offputting about the right Nowadays, particularly in America. uh they're like, "Oh, now we have the power and now we're going to show them." And that's exactly what men felt when a

lot of men felt, especially young men who are not as advantaged as people like to pretend in our society. We've just had various reports come out about the fact that the gender pay gap now works the other way and all sorts of other things. I I I would like to see that, but you should look into I would like to see That. Yeah, you should look into it. So, uh, the point I'm making is that evolution from Jordan Peterson to Andrew Tate is exactly the thing that Francis is talking about as the backlash. I see

I do you not think Jord Jordan Peterson has missed the turnoff now? I've seen him say some really unpleasant things about women. Like what? Oh, just that um men can't control insane women, you know, that kind of thing. It's I I mean, no one can control insane women. That's For sure. I mean, do you not find that no one can control insane men either. Insane people are quite difficult to control. Well, yeah, but it's it's it's said in a context of, you know, that's what they like. You can find if you look if you Google

Jordan Peterson quotes about women, you'll find anyone's quotes, you can find things that you I have seen him say stuff that I I find unpleasant. I know Jordan very well. Uh I've been on tour with him. Uh I've seen 10,000 people turn out for his shows well-dressed. Uh who and I've seen him talk to the people who come to his shows afterwards and all of them to a person say, "You've made me a better person. here's the girlfriend I met because of you, etc. He's made an incredible positive impact on millions of people. He has

I'm not saying he has not said anything wise. I'm saying I I find it kind of a bit scarier sometimes when somebody has this sort of um Respectability element of look at all my well-dressed fans and then they can start to say almost anything because they have Jordan's done quite the opposite though. He's become far more considerate and careful over time. Maybe I missed that phase of Jordan and I'll I'll I'll look back into it, but I I have I've seen things that I've haven't gotten to hand and I don't want to be misquing. Okay.

Um so but I've seen things that have troubled me about Jordan Peterson. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. But but that doesn't mean he's a bad person. It just might mean that you have a different view of things. Right. It it like you and I have a different view of things. But I it doesn't necessarily mean that I come away from this conversation thinking you're a bad person or you hate men. Likewise the other way around, right? So uh what what I'm saying the point I'm making is not Jordan's human. I'm sure he said things That

you don't like. I'm sure he said things I don't like. But on balance he's someone who's made a huge positive impact on men. Andrew Tay I see is very much the opposite of that. Right. And the point Francis is making is I think there's a lot of truth to the idea that this constant the thing that you were against, the thing that you were speaking against is what's created that shift. So that now we've gone from Jordan Peterson to Andrew T. I think It's a lot more sinister than that. I think it's I I don't

think it's helped. And I've I opened by saying this didn't help. This did not help. And the constant uh them and us, the cult like them and us and I do see this on both sides. I see it. I see it across the board, across the political scape. And I feel like my side is the progressive left and therefore I want to keep my own house in order. And I also think the progressive left are meant to be Empathetic and helping other people up. That's the whole that's the whole name of the game for us.

What are we doing? Saying anybody is trash. It's deh it's dehumanizing. I don't know why we're doing it. And I fought against it for years. and I feel angry that it has ex exacerbated the situation. However, um I also think when you look at project 25 and the heritage foundation in America and the rise of the trad wife and the ex the increasing Um unpleasantness of far-right politics that is rising up and Elon Musk trying to buy elections across America for the far across Europe for the far right. I think it's just so much more

sinister. The Andrew Tate of it all is so much more sinister than, well, if you're going to say we're trash, we're gonna build a an uber misogynist. I think there's so much else driving it and going on. And I think it's a little cosmetic to say the fault of um honestly I uh I think um I had a really interesting conversation which is in the book. I've got it as an interview in the book with a guy called Neil Data who is the head of uh the European a forum for sexual reproductive rights um in

Europe. So it's European obviously in Europe and so it's basically a forum and he gets all the MPs that care that women have. It's really that women have um access to birth control, abortion and cervical smears, you know, for stop cancer and You know, just basically that kind of uh package. And um it it's uh basically he explained to me and then I looked into it and this does check out um that around 2012 um there was I mean I don't know how much I really want to say about this and maybe I should just

let people read it in the book but basically there was a there was some Christian farright nationalists who got very angry that they were losing Based on the fact that both the UK and France France um brought in equal marriage and it was around that time and they went okay if it's the mad scandies the Danes will marry a chair that's nothing to do with us but when it's the United Kingdom and when it's France we've got to we've got to do something here and they came over and they had a forum in um they

had a a sort of conference in the UK um around 2011 2012 that time and they said we got to stop Asking what what do we want and we've got to start asking what can we it because if we come into the UK saying no abortion, anti-gay rights, we'll we'll be laughed out as crackpots. And one of the questions they asked was, "What do feminists disagree on?" And you know what? They came up with trans rights. But there'd always been a little bit of a uh well, back to the 60s, is that gay rights? Is

that queer rights? Is this how does it say? Sorry, I don't follow. So, it's all part of the same um sort of bubbling up of uh this is this is not how we want it to be. And I think there's a real you can really draw a line between the um the kind of bubbling up of this extreme misogyny and at the same time that Heritage Foundation family values. Um, and there's evidence that the that the the Heritage Foundation are funding the triad wives. Like you know that do you know that um ballet farming but

Forgive me I'm genuinely not being I don't follow how Andrew Tate comes from that. I think it's just like a landscape. Well, here's an example. Andrew Tate has now been given the he was he was uh he was here somewhere in he was in Florida. Florida. He's been moved to Florida but he was moved No, he wasn't moved to Florida. He went he was granted leave by the Romanian courts and he's a US citizen so he went on holiday to Florida. I thought that was that that Was somehow given to him by Trump or No,

it wasn't my my No, no. I think Deborah is right. I think um the Trump administration put pressure on Romania to release him to be able to go back to what happened and that's I mean that's what I read and you know one must always check one sources on the internet but that's what I read and and I think that is accurate. Um, but and it just feels like a sort of rising tide to me. Okay, let me give you a different Version because that sounds a little wishy-washy, but actually what you're getting at I

think is not inaccurate. A right-wing person of whom I know many would say that what you're describing is an a reaction to progressive overreach. Um, now I don't think gay marriage is progressive overreach. uh but many of the things and by the way I think uh part of the part that we've talked about that's missing from this is the social media aspect which comes Along around 2014 and you see the rise of all of this stuff happening um but there are lots of other things that people will describe as progressive overreach to which they're reacting

and um Andrew Tay and all sorts of other social movements are certainly a reaction to that which is the sense that like you know uh you said it yourself you know we we we now finally have the opportunity to get our message across And there was a kind of crudness to That. There was a vengefulness to that. There was a a but that in itself is a respons patriarchal overreach which has been intact for a very long time. Like you know you can't expect people to have no voice for so long and be careful. Stuck

in this doom loop and then if not come out and have something to say about it. If no one wants to forgo vengeance then we are stuck in this doom loop. I think it's unfair to say that women took vengeance. They took some glee. I would Say some women took some glee but again this is some women feminists are this tiny group really when you look at the most people in this country are watching so the far right it's just some men it's just some men but it's some very powerful men some very powerful women

that hashtag was trending and it wasn't just a hashtag let me you cannot equate you cannot equate some power very powerful men some who's the equivalent of Donald Trump and Elon Musk who can Actually change our lives name me that woman and I'll tell you what it isn't it's not Hillary Clinton It's not Kla Harris. Who is that woman? Well, set aside those two. I I certainly wouldn't say either those of those two men is far right, but you wouldn't say Elon Musk or Donald Trump were far right. Definitely not. They're literally canceling everything, anything.

They're canceling they're destroying lives. Perhaps I perhaps we have a different Different definition of what far right is. What would you say? What's the definition of far right in your head? What What about them isn't far right is I would ask you what what is in order doing isn't far right. Yeah, I understand your question. In order to answer your question, we both have to agree on a definition of far right. They've literally said they've taken pause just pause for a moment. What is your definition of far right? It's it's far further than um fiscal

conservativism. Okay. It's uh it is social conservatism that says there is there is one proper way to live and that way is a a hetronormative family. 2.4 four children, women should be having babies. This is all Heritage Foundation values. This is all project 25 stuff. And this is this is well and also if you don't agree with this, here's an example of something far right that Trump and Musk are doing. If you don't agree with This, um if you go to if if if if um universities allow illegal protests, by which they mean protests, the

students will be instantly dismissed. This is what the American government are saying. If if say you you're at Harvard, you want to protest that government site as a legal protest. The students will be instantly dismissed. If they're foreign students, they'll be sent home. um they may be Arrested and imprisoned no matter where they're from. And if the if the university is allowed, all federal funding will be pulled from that university. Does that or does that not seem to you to be verging into fascism? Uh I no I don't think it's verging into fascism. Uh but

but so what what what would cause your alarms to go off? The right the right to protest is incredibly important. Um and if without it, what do we have? What kind of government do we Have? Hold on a second. I'm answering your question. the uh the right to protest is incredibly important. I think the the interesting thing about those particular cases that you're referring to is whether there is celebration, glorification or promotion of terrorism which is illegal both in this country and in the US. And I think that's probably where the dividing line is on

on that issue. Um but uh I I'm I'm a little bit confused. Please do not think For one second this isn't going to hit uh queer people, LGBTQ plus people. It is hitting them right now. There are states where they are arguing to take um take back the right to equal marriage and there are states which are putting in uh putting forward these sort of um I can't what they call them now but sort of some kind of um special trust marriages where we give you a tax break but the marriage is one from which

a woman cannot divorce a man basically Without these really oldfashioned like we're literally talking about the rights that women fought for that unless you can prove that your partner's been faithful or you can prove that they've been significantly abusive, you cannot divorce them. Yes. I mean, we are in we are heading into Gilead. I really that's not none of those are things that anybody here supports. But um I I'm just coming back to this idea of Trump and Musk being far right. Uh You initially talked about the Heritage Foundation, traditional marriage, tra all of that

stuff, and then we talked about fascism. So is your definition are you saying Trump and Musk are fascists? I'm saying that the the government is is making moves which makes anybody who is frightened of fascism which should be all of us very scared like I feel like saying if it's an illegal protest and what kind of protest does Trump like? You know Trump. What does he like? I don't know Trump. Well you know you've seen him in power before. If the students were all out protesting in a state where they were taking away equal marriage

and there were loads of gay student Trump is proequal marriage isn't he and Elon certainly I would imagine they're all pro while there's social capital in it but he hasn't been saying anything positive about gay people lately has he? Um, had you said Anything negative about gay people? I'm pretty sure. Which way is the wind blowing? Be honest. In America, about gay rights. And then who's in charge? Yeah. But this is the interesting thing because uh it's the worrying thing about the right now. Trump seems like a moderate compared to some of the people um

who are outside of the the holes of power. Well, then in that case, someone else is pulling the strings and he's Allowing them to be pulled because it is it is fast going towards I don't like neither does Francis a lot of the things that are happening uh in America in particular on the right. You don't need to convince anyone here of that. just I I'm I'm kind of a bit of a stickler for definitions because I think it's important and one of the things this is one of the big things that's happened uh that

really always worried me with wokeness and I think we're now Seeing unfortunately the tragic results of that which is when people throw around labels like fascist and Nazi and and bigot and all whatever irresponsibly as they did and they continue to do. Uh what then happens is there are now actual Nazis. actual Nazis, not people who who who say, you know, trans woman isn't a woman or whatever, but people who actually are doing Holocaust denial, people who are actually uh saying, "Well, Hitler was a good guy." All of This stuff. And we can't call them

a Nazi anymore and be credibly believed because the left spend years calling people a Nazi for, you know, thinking pronouns are funny or whatever. Do you see what I mean? I I think you can. And he has no effect on the right anymore. It has no effect because the power of those words got taken away. I don't really think you can blame some young people who like the internet is a vicious Place. David Lambie called the ERG he went on national television in Britain with Andrew Mah and said that the ERG the the basically a

group of conservatives who are proxit are worse than Nazis. It wasn't young people. It was the entire left. It was the entire left. We do know that Boris Johnson um is with Steve Banan who is a white supremacist. We do know that there are links between Victor Orban, Salvini, and others. I'm not backing off on this. Never will I back on off on this on behalf of my constituents and the BBC should not allow this extreme hard right fascism to flourish. And often the the side of it conservative, I don't care how elected they were.

So was the far right in Germany. They're often elected often giving a cover for the thugs on the ground. Look, I don't know that it was the entire left. I don't remember calling anyone a Nazi and I would say myself on the left. I think I Think we've all got a problem that we go on the internet and whatever the worst things that we see even though there's fewer of them than the best things and there's fewer of them loads of people most people aren't even on social media in that capacity they're just sharing their

holiday snaps and their their you know picture their grandchildren and we decide that's who society is and that's who the left is. That's true. But David Lammy and prominent left-wing Politicians and prominent left-wing activists and prominent left-wing campaigners and prominent left-wing figures all use these words and threw them around deeply irresponsibly in my opinion. And now we have lost the language to describe the things that are happening. Well, that may be the case. I'm not I'm not suggesting that people should have called people Nazis who were in fact uh who they felt a viciferous Disagreement

with or were perhaps in my opinion taking steps towards the space we're in now. But I don't think you can blame that for people if I hear somebody described as a as a Nazi it doesn't make me go I'll show you what a real Nazi is. Nobody becomes a real Nazi who wasn't. No, no, I understand. You're right. You're right. Seething with those thoughts. That's not my argument. I'm not saying we've created Nazis. I'm saying we now can no longer call out Nazis for being Nazis cuz the word Nazi no longer has the meaning that

it did because it got eroded. That's what I'm saying. But it sounds like you agree, which is fine. And that's why I picked up on the far right point because I don't think Donald Trump is far right. I just don't. The guy was a Democrat. He's if you look at his policies, some of which I like and some of which I don't like on the scale on the broad scale of it, he's a pretty moderate center-right Guy. I don't think Donald Trump has any ideology except more power and glory for Donald Trump. I don't think

I think we you we impose we impose far more intellectual rigor on that man than than there's just nothing there except more for me, more Elon Musk is the same. It's just more for me, more money for me. How could anyone need that many more billions and still want more billions? I think it's about money actually. And take a Chainsaw. No, but it's about what money represents, which is I'm the best. I'm the biggest. I'm the most powerful. Take a chainsaw. Like, lol, I'm going to cut all the literacy programs. I mean, when you have

that much in what like one thing that I think does point to fascism is who is Elon Musk? Why is he there? Why is he making these why is he making these? Was he making any recommendations? like this is well the steelman argument would be that he is a Very very very successful businessman who knows how to run and create things very powerful but an unelected man who is well it's pretty normal for governments to bring in business people to run certain things there's certain things and there's this is my right-hand Dr. evil. There's certain

things and there's what's going on now. And I I haven't met anyone on any side of the political divide and I am a pretty um I'm a pretty um I talk to lots of people From lots of you know I I'm open to all discussions. I'm here today. Um I haven't met anyone who's not scared of Elon Musk who isn't going, "Oh my god, that guy's unhinged. that guy is uh that guy is shouldn't be in the position of power that he's in. He's he's making fast decisions about things he doesn't understand. And the economy

is an ecosystem and you can't just go we'll cut every community center in America Because the government aren't funding that and they're not understand but the corner shop around the corner where the kids go and buy their coke is and their their you know their sandwich is now going to go out of business and the lady who lives across the road who does the manicures and so on that where the moms come when the kids are in the community center is going to go out of business. It what are they doing? What are they doing?

As I think everyone I know is Looking at that and going, "This isn't wise and this is insane and this is really going to cause uh an an inter a terrible collapse of the economy." And I don't know what an unelected person is doing at this right hand in the White House now apparently in charge of everything. Um, and the the way the wind is blowing towards queer rights, towards women's rights is is is scary. Women are dying in states where abortions are banned or now are Virtually inaccessible. They're dying. And women coming in, I've

talked to doctors about this. Women are coming in going, "I'm miscarrying. Please, can you and their doctors are saying, "We cannot do anything until it is life-threatening. And if we do it, we have to sit there and watch and wait till the point of life-threatening or we can lose our medical license and we can go to jail." And that's a very, very real fear for these doctors. doctors are Leaving the state because they're like, I can't do my job anymore and I don't want to watch women die and watch women bleed out andor have to

prove in court she would have died. So women are already dying in America. And that's this is why I would never say I was anti-woke because to me sometimes people what what people lump into wokeness is the concern that people have when people who are not they don't have representation in The big buildings that count for people like them. They don't have anyone in there going but people like me are dying. And that to me is why the word woke is misused to sort of like, oh well, somebody criticized me because I forgot Jenny's pronouns

is not the same as this is, you know, I mean, obviously use Jenny's pronouns. What's costing you? But it but it's not the same as we don't need to worry about women dying on tables of miscarriages because they're Not allowed to have an abortion. I've never heard anyone make that argument, you know. But that's why I'm saying I want to prevent people from having an abortion. But it's just people do categorize it. People do categorize it all as the same thing. It's all your kind your kind of values. When people say to me that I'm

woke, it's like you care about these things. The main things feminist feminism should be caring about. Is are are people's lives Appreciably worse or appreciably better? Are people is there unfairness? That's what feminism should be about. Is there can there be justice where there is unfairness? Sure. Agreed. Agreed. I I think what you when you're talking about how people categorize wokeness, I think that's people who don't actually understand what it means to be woke. I think that's people who just have a very surface level analysis of it and have a definition is going to be

different from Mine. I mean, I I anyway, let's get off the topic of because what we're doing is nuance of a word and that's what we're criticizing other people for. That's not the problem. The problem is we have two ways of looking at the world and then a million ways in between. Yeah. and and we are reducing and reducing and reducing to them and us. And we need to understand we are the human race and our world is getting hotter. My friend's house burnt down in LA. My I've got Friends in a cyclone in Australia

at the moment. The world is getting worse in so many different ways that we are at risk of war in Europe. We need to get on our own team and our own team is humanity. I also think as well, Deborah, and I we talk about this a lot on the show. I think it's also people need to show courage. I think for for too long we we've seen either side go off the deep end and a large part of it is because people don't say we're going off the Deep end. Part of the reason the

whatever you want to call that side of the left went off the deep end is because not enough people on the center left went hang on a minute. Can we can we just calm down a bit here? Maybe not all men are trash. Maybe we don't destroy someone for a joke they made eight years ago. This is not the correct way of doing it. And it's the same on the right. We need the people in the center, which I see you as broadly being Center left, us wherever we may identify as being. We need to

actually be able to hold that center. I'm pretty hard left. That's right. I was going to say, I don't think she is center. No, but I'm pretty hard left, but I'm but I also but I've been in a cult and I know when I'm in one. And so I I want I want to prioritize what's important by being in the center. I mean that not the these fringe little movements that I'm happy to be on the left. I just want to build Bridges to the right. And what I don't want to do and at least

at least not burn the bridges we already have. And I feel like we have we have suffered from burning some of the bridges we already had. Most people are just cracking on with their day and watching the traitors and getting looking at what's two for one in sainsburries and worried about where their, you know, what their kids doing at school and all of that. That's what most people are doing. And so for Me, it's those people in the middle where I want to say, hey, we are in danger in this country of losing our abortion

rights. We are like there are moves here to be anti-abortion moves and bring the weeks down and then bring the weeks down, then bring the weeks down. And they want it to be like America. And there are there are forces in this country. So I want to appeal to people for whom that would matter who are not politically activated right at the Moment because they're just cracking on with their lives and they've never had the time or the you know the you know it hasn't been a priority. That's who I think we should be talking

to. And I think we need to be building bridges. And I think if we if we want a fairer world for people who are gender non-conforming, for gay people, for women who do have different needs, then we have to start building bridges to people who are in the middle and not Immediately scold them because they've come online and said something with the wrong turn of phrase. Well, and I think we need to be really figuring out how to build bridges to people on the on the right that are reachable. Well, if you want to do

that, then I I have one suggestion for you based on what you've just said, which is I think the one thing that you will never reach people anywhere outside the hard left with is the idea that we want to build a fairer World for people from this community or this community or that community. If you want to reach people across a political spectrum, you should be talking about a fairer world for everybody. Uh and this is the problem that the left has made o over the last 10 years in particular, which is this obsession with

identity. Uh it's incredibly divisive because anyone who listens to what you've just said, what they will hear is you want a better world for these subsets of the Population. Okay. Well, I'm not one of the subsets of these subsets for the population. What does that mean for me? And they might, and I don't know, reasonably unreasonably, hold on, assume from that that what you want is to take something away from them and give it to these people. That's what it sounds like. Um, and this divisiveness along racial lines, sexual lines, it's just it's not going

to bring people together. It's it's the reason I'm against Identity politics is not because I want whatever my identity is to be well protected. It's because I know that when people disappear down these down these rabbit holes and only care about this group and this group and this group, uh, that's when everybody suffers. doesn't have to be only but but can you imagine a world in which gay people have the rights that they do in this country now that you agree with where gay people didn't get up and fight and say we don't Have any

rights and we're going to make that our focus. When you look at how gay people got rights in this country they had to say for now this is what we're focused on. That was identity politics. We just didn't call it identity politics. We didn't have that name. How would they have got them otherwise if they'd been like but also for straight people cuz straight people had rides fine then you're never going to reach the people that you're trying to reach What do you mean fine what do you mean fine what do you mean fine how

would they have got them you agree with them having them how would they have got them see you're demonstrating and early in the interview exactly the opposite of what you claim you're trying to do which is the moment I say something you don't like you become aggressive and highly emotional aggressive and highly emotional I'm just having a debate with you I'm I'm showing passion No, not Especially not at the beginning you weren't. But anyway, what I'm saying to you is I didn't like one thing that you said in a way that I I found unpleasant

and I did react to that. But if I don't So you're not reaching anyone who's listening to this conversation by doing that is my point. So you don't know that. You don't know who I'm reaching. I know I know I know audience pretty well. I know audience pretty well. Can I just let me just finish but but you're asking Me to sit here as if it's just entirely intellectual and and talk like this. Sometimes I feel I'm not asking you to do anything. What I'm saying is your claim is you want to reach people and

I'm saying to you if you want to reach these people that you're currently probably not reaching, here's some thoughts I have about how better to do that. But then you what you can't do then is just go I just sit I just push to the side. You're an intellectual. You have to intellectually I'm not pushing anything to the side. I'm saying the method that you are using is not going to be effective for reaching this particular group of people. I don't really believe you. I think passion is passion is always loved. I I think what

people don't want to see people go yes I think people want to see people go no but how can you say that? I'm not against passion. I think you're misunderstanding What I enjoy debate. I don't find it I don't find it I don't find it offputting at all if I see someone go no but how can you say that? As long as they're being nor do I and that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is you become uh especially hysterical a hysterical woman. Is that what you're saying? Well, see, you're demonstrating again now. You're

trying to put words in my mouth. You're trying to put me onto a template that already exists, which is a man. Yeah, you are. But every joke is only half joke as we all know, right? So, you're you are doing the thing that is going to put a lot of people off. What I'm saying to you is if you want to reach across the spectrum, Yeah. across the spectrum. Okay. Well, look, let's be honest, right? You're very good at reaching people on the hard left and you're very good at reaching women and that's why they

love your show. But a lot of my people will turn in to see This as well cuz I'll tell them it's on and you're not trying to reach them. You already reach them, right? You claim you want you want to reach people on the other side, right? That's what you're saying. Now, I think it's fair to say that I'm probably better than you at reaching people who are on the center and center right. Would that be fair? Um, yes. Well, because you agree with them. It's not because I agree with them. because I articulate arguments

That resonate with someone. You seem really pedic I'm not I'm not even remotely pissed off. I'm just trying to make clarity on this issue. Right. So what I'm saying to you is if you want to reach those people who I know how to reach. Mhm. Right. I should agree with you. No, you shouldn't agree with me. I'm just saying the strategy that you are displaying with your behavior is not going to be effective for reaching. I I feel like am I am I I don't know, Francis. Am I shouting? Am I swearing? Or am I

just going, how can you say that? I didn't say that you were shouting or swearing. What is the behavior? It's just me le re leaning forward and going come on now. That's not that's not the way you behaved earlier in the interview. Anyway, well, what you said was quite significant. It was quite It wasn't It's not that it was offensive. It was It's scared to me. Okay. So, and so I that That did, right? That did. So, anytime I say something that scares you, this is how you react. Whereas if you listen to what I

was saying, it's actually perfectly logical and reasonable. Am I controlling what you're doing now? You're controlling the way that I operate in the interview space where I've done nothing inappropriate. I've just debated you most of the time I've agreed with you and agreed with you. I found masses of agreement and I found With you and where I haven't I may have shown some passion in a debate, but this to sort of say now I control your behavior. I don't control your behavior remotely. You made the claim that you want to reach people on the other

side. And what I'm saying is this is not a way that's going to work for the following reasons because identity politics is divisive by its very nature. That's what I'm saying to you. So, okay. But, but then I as I what I pointed out to you Was yes, the gay rights movement succeeded by focusing on gay rights. So, I'm asking you how could they have done it? I'm not talking about how they could have done it. I'm talking about how could they have done it otherwise? Because if you can't show me any other way, then

you're just saying it's divisive. So sit back and take what you've got. I didn't say. So what what's the other way? What's the other way is what I'm asking you. I did tell you what The other way is, which is to emphasize as much as possible our shared common humanity. That's literally what I did. I said we're all going to be on the same side. But what I I say I want a fairer world for this group and this group and this group. But I do I also want a fair world for men. For men.

And I've said that I've said that at other points in this interview. But there are I have I literally said I don't I I fought actively in my feminist Community, but I have argued on national radio many times that women and children first is what an odd rule. And what it means is if I'm in a a rescue situation and I'm in a dingy and uh out in the ocean and there's a 19-year-old young man who is got his whole life ahead of him and is probably weighs less than me and is about I'm not

going to open up another branch. Men and women and dead children first is exactly the right policy. Anyway, let's move on to Substack. I mean, say your final thing and then we'll move on to substack where we'll continue the conversation. Is he always like this? I am always like this. Yes, it's very controlling. Um, yeah, it's very controlling. Um, no, I produces laughing. I um if if if I'm if I'm if I'm if I am out in the ocean, I hope I would get out of the boat and say, "Look, you're 19. You you stay

in a boat. I'll drown." Okay. But It's hard to get out of a boat of privilege. And society tells me that that's my right. I don't have any children. Why am I in the boat? Why isn't he in the boat? I don't understand it. But it's hard to get out of a boat of privilege. And it's hard for men to get out of their boats of privilege or even see them. So there are spaces in which I argue for men's rights all the time. Men's rights activists always think women feminists don't do that. I Do.

I argue for men's rights all the time where I see that there's a disparity. And so I I am not someone who's going I'm only v I'm only fighting for this. I'm only fighting for that. But if you go out onto the street and say more for everyone and you don't say gay people can't get married, straight people can, it's never going to happen. The only reason we have gay rights in this country is because somebody got out and fought for them on a specific Platform. So there is also room for specific platforms. It is

just not there's just there's just not a a helpful way forward by going we only feel for each other and everyone else is dehumanized. the the argument with gay rights is different because what gay people wanted was equal rights with everybody and all you have to say today is I want equal rights for everybody. You don't have to talk about this community and that Community. You that's that that implies that all because gay people can get married all other rights are sorted. No, but if there is legal discrimination let's point it out and fix it.

Okay. So that's what feminism is doing. Abortion in America. Okay. and fight fight fighting to keep our reproductive rights. Abortion is never a case of equal rights because it's highly specific to one sex. Although as you say everything is a binary but um the it it Doesn't work that way. Okay. Because it's different because men can't have children, right? So therefore we need to fight for a community and that community has an identity. The more you talk about that, the more you push away everyone else, which is the point I made. Okay? So we can't

fight for abortion rights. We can't. I said the messaging ought to be as much as possible abortion is a different issue but on all the other issues that you're Talking about this marginalized community that marginalized community etc. The focus ought to be on the fact that we want everyone to have equal opportunities and equal rights. Sure. Sure. And where where it is a where it is a problem that all human being climate change that's all human beings would benefit from trying collectively to fix that problem. Right. Um but abortion is specifically about women and people

of Minority genders. So there are times when we do have to advocate. Yes. But but there are times when we don't and we have been DEI for example is a perfect example of this right when you push people onto we started this conversation right with with this very thing where you push people into certain positions to increase their representation often inaccurately. You make the point about London. It's true. uh you know BBC in the 1980s did not look like London today But BBC today doesn't look like Hastings today either right so when we talk about

representations it's much more complicated than people who live in big cities who have a particular vision of it um and my point is the more we emphasize our shared humanity and the need for everyone to have equal opportunity the less divisive things become the more we focus on individual communities the more divisive things become and that's just a fact you you May say that you need to fight for this group I may agree with you doesn't change the fact that it's divisive. Um I feel very strongly that everything is not there. We're not there yet.

We're not at a point when where life is so equal we can just say human beings for the win. I feel like there are still many many things to be fought for and lot we've lost stuff that we had. You know, you look at what's happening in America, they're losing stuff hand over Fist right now. And so, and to me, DEI was only ever about trying to write historical wrongs. And I feel like the gutting of it is really about supremacy for people like Musk and Trump. I don't really think it's anything to do with

the fact that we've overstepped. If we'd overstepped, the representation would be very, very, very different than it how it is. We haven't overstepped. And we're not talking about the casting of David Copperfield on ITV1. We're literally Talking about who's in the House of Commons, who's in who's in the who's in the who's in the Senate. So, I would I would argue against you want to end politics, fine. But it's just it's divisive. I I mean, you say things so categorically like it is and then but it's what it's everyone has to stop talking. No, you

don't have to stop talking. I'm just saying it's the logical conclusion of the thing that you're saying. You think DEI is about Writing historical wrongs. So, you want DEI. You think that certain communities don't have equal rights and you want to focus narrowly on those communities to bring them up to whichever position you think that they should be in. You want identity politics. That's fine. But you have to acknowledge that it's divisive. Could it not be more nuanced than that, though? That's what I was saying at the beginning. It's it's not it's not this or

that. It's it's a big crunchy squishy Huge thing where we need this, but this can cause this. So then we try and do that. We try and do that. It's you're very binary. you're very it is or it isn't and it is and there it is because some things are or they aren't like male and female and I I am going to go out on a large limb and say there are lots of things that are very nuanced that that they are very nuanced and one of those is people's people's gender identities and one of

those things is how we manage To fight for people like the history of gay rights how people fight and still manage to the hard work of creating acceptance, not just civil rights in their communities. It's a it's a hard long fight and the straight community has not really done a lot. The gay community's done most of the work to make sure there's an integration so that now most people in this country go, "Yeah, Paul and Jack next door, they're really nice. Um, Jenny's teachers are Lesbian and it's no big deal." That was a big old

hard fight and I just don't think we can minimize it by going it's divisive. Stop talking. It's it wasn't divisive. In the end, it brought a lot more humanity and and harmony to to this country. And now you've got Donald Trump and Elon Musk. So you're blaming you're bl I'm saying we talked about this with Andrew Tate. We talked about this with other things. Progressive overreach is why Donald Trump is in power. So you Would call gay marriage overreach? No, not at all. I'm saying all the things that happened. See, again, you keep putting words

in my mouth so that you can make me sound like I've said something offensive. No, no, I'm not saying you've said anything offensive. I'm trying to interrogate what you're saying, but sometimes you do a bit of a leap where you go, "So this," and I'm like, "Oh, hold on. That's that's way over there." The Donald Donald Trump was Elected effectively. Do you know what his most effective campaign ad was? H I think it was um it was it was the Caralas for them Donald President Trump's Donald Trump was elected because people propaganda it is propaganda.

Most people don't know an out trans person. Most people don't know a trans person. That was propaganda. That's that's exactly what I was saying before about the far religious right and heritage foundation and project 25. Most people In America reacted to that ad in a very powerful way which is why it was the most powerful ad. Right. The reason that it's happening, the reason that Donald Trump is in power is that many, many people have had enough of this identity politics, have had enough of the obsession with victim, who have have had enough about all

of this stuff that you are advocating for more of. And my point to you is if you carry on doing what you've been doing, you're going to keep Getting the results you've been getting. It's as simple as that. Now, I don't like much of the overcorrection that we're about to experience. And I've been predicting for many years and opposing the woke left for this very reason that this was inevitable. I I think there's something more sinister going on and which I've written about in my book and I did a lot of research. I was quite

surprised by what I found actually. Um overall what I'm saying in my book is We're all in a cult whether we're on the left or the right. We've got to break out of it. We do need to understand that we are being asked to empa empathize more and more with fewer and fewer people. That lack that erosion of our empathy is a lack of is is an erosion of our humanity. We need to rejig the rethink the cancellation of the past and instead figure out what we can learn from flawed figures in the past who

are never going to agree with us there in The past. I've tried to make a very human um uh I've tried to have a very human look at gender non-conformity and try and make some new arguments that I think haven't been made before. Um I am very interested in as a comedian in in um uh uh the freedom of speech in comedy and I do want freedom of speech. I don't want censorship, but I am also interested in how audiences do often know the difference between the punchline of the Joke and the point of the

joke. And I am broadly arguing that cancel culture has needs to needs to change. And um and then I've got a chapter about what we can do about it all. Um it is a I suppose a book from the progressive left that says we're doing a lot of things wrong and we need to do a lot of things right. I hope your uh we need a lot of things better. Great. I hope your listeners like it. All right. Well, thanks for coming on. Uh should we do like I we've Is this been two hours? Yeah.

No, it's flown by, but that's cuz there's been a lot of disagreement. So, I think we just do the final question, mate, and wrap it up there. Okay. Uh Deborah, we always end the show with the final question, which is what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? Oh, what's the one thing we should I I planned something for this and now I think we've already covered it. Um, this Happens every interview. Does it? Yes, very much. Yeah. Um, okay. The one thing we should be talking about uh that we're

not is I think have you watched couples therapy? No. It's a show about with a New York analyst who's talking to couples and um basically, you know, romantic couples and I don't know why they've agreed to have their therapy televised, but it's absolutely riveting. It's fascinating. And she always asks uh sort of gets what's underneath that. So, One of them is saying he he's a child. He doesn't he I come home and you know the table's covered with stuff and um he's you know, been playing with the baby, but he hasn't done anything else, and

why can't he clean the bathroom like a grown-up? And then she will go, ex what's under that? What's the feeling? And sort of like, well, it's it's that I have to do everything. And what is that feeling? It's that I have no help. I'm Alone. I'm lonely. And is there a time in your childhood when you were lonely? Yes, I I my mom left me alone. I was allowed to kick it. And it will sort of she'll keep going underneath. That is what we are not doing. like the three of us here today. It's like

if you push my buttons and I go I lean across the table and go, "No, but how can you say that?" You immediately go firstly my buttons are pushed like what's this man telling me about the way to communicate? And so What's behind that? Well, behind that is I was in a very patriarchal cult where men told me how to do everything. I don't want to be told by a man that I'm communicating incorrectly just cuz I'm leaning across the table and showing some passion and that I need to, you know, calm down. Well, what's

behind that? It's the fear that I'm going to be controlled and I was controlled before and I'll never be controlled again. And then you get triggered and you go, you Go, um, I wasn't particularly triggered. Well, you claim that you're not, but there are times when you really get crossed. No, I get cross when people misrepresent what I say. That pisses me off a lot. And what's underneath that? Why? When why what's that feeling? I don't lie when people lie about me. But okay. So, but do you think I'm lying or do you think I'm

misunderstanding or or I I think that in being offended or upset by something that I've said, you Are then lashing out and trying to misrepresent me. Okay. So, you think I'm trying to misrepresent you rather than rather than you what you've said has landed with me in a way that I think that's what you've said. Uh I think that interesting. Well, the reason for that is is to win an argument, the easiest thing to do is to to effectively say that somebody said something else. For example, like when you said, "Are you being hysterical?" Now,

I know you were Partly joking. I was joking. I was smiling. I know, but well, not quite. But part of that part of the the thing there is when you do a joke like that, what you're really doing is you're hinting at a stereotype that exists in people's head, which is a man dismissing something a woman says because she's being hysterical, right? So, you're trying to push me into that box where I don't want to go. What's going on for you? What's going on for me is I don't Want to go in that box because

all I'm doing is exploring your argument. Why do you want to go in the box? What's wrong with the box? What's wrong? Because the box is not representing what I'm actually saying when I'm simply taking what's the emotion of I don't like being in a box. What's what's where's that a box? It's the box that you're trying to put me in, which is a man who's telling a woman she's wrong because she's being hysterical. So, so that box which is is You don't like things projected upon you basically. I don't like people describing me in

public in a way that's inaccurate. Okay. But that's a pretty reasonable thing to feel. Okay. So you're not really playing the game, which is what's beneath that? What's the human thing? So my thing is behind that there's you might try and control me. That's nothing to do with you, right? That's me vulnerably going I and if I went below that, I'd be like, why don't I like being controlled? That makes me feel unsafe and why does I why do I feel unsafe? That's easy for me. Look, as a public person, what people say about me

is what people will then go and believe, right? So people putting out false narratives about me is something that's necessarily something I'm going to be guarded against. Sure. Okay. So you're not really playing the game because the game is the sort of vulnerability piece. So it's sort of like it's it's I'm not Going to make something up to pretend to be vulnerable. I'm telling you that like I regard somebody misrepresenting the core of my argument, right, as something that is dishonest in an honest discussion. Do you understand? Is it is it clear to you that

there were times when I felt you did that to me? Uh that I misrepresented your argument. Yeah. Or you just misunderstood it and it I don't think I ever misrepresented your argument. No, I didn't do that. That's So interesting to me. So when I say something and if you you you take it in your framework sometimes you'll present it back to me and I'll go but that's not what I said or that's not what I meant. So when did I misrepresent your argument? There were a bunch of times if you watch a bad Did you

give an example? um you will you will like the thing about um uh indigenous people. Well, they're only such and such percent. They're a tiny percent. And I'm like, No, but that's not what it's about. It's not about the percentage. But that's not misrepresenting your argument. I don't think you can play this. I don't think you can I don't think you can get there. Watch the show, though. I think it it'd be really really interesting. I don't think you can get to the place that I'm trying to get. It's not about going over the arguments.

It's about how you feel like when you say, "Oh, I get really that." So, that's why I think what we're Not really talking already answered your question. When somebody misrepresents what I'm saying, okay, I'm naturally not going to like doing that. Okay, I didn't try and misrepresent anything. I had a feeling of that's not what I said or that's what you meant or that's it was a feeling so I pushed the ball back to you. No one was trying to misrepresent. You know what it reminds me of? We had this guy called um Imran Imran

Akmed Imran Akmed on the Show. Mhm. and we talked about online censorship and he made some very good points and we were agreeing for about 90% of the interview. Yeah. And then I said something he didn't like that he didn't agree and suddenly the mask came off and he instantly came out as just like no it started calling me names and and doing that's not nice all this stuff and your sophistry right now is both transparent and deeply disrespectful. And I warn you that most of your Listeners will think to themselves, "Actually, Constantine's being a

bit of a right now." And to me, I experience that a lot with people who are arguing from the position of high empathy. That happens quite a lot where um somebody pretends to be reasonable and they're having an agreement and whatever, but the moment I say something that makes them uncomfortable, as I said, with the indigenous people and us being sophisticated, suddenly they show A different side to themselves. Yeah. But that's that's normal and human. If somebody says something that that is is sort of feels um what I'm trying to say to you, the thing

we're not talking about Yeah. is what's behind all of this. And so online when people like you said this, you said this, you said this, you said this, you did this, you did this, you did this, I'm right, you're left, you're in that box, I'm in that box, I'm an Andrew Tate Fan, I'm a this. What's behind it all, I think, is I don't feel safe or I feel hurt or I feel I feel boxed or I feel projected upon to. And I think that's what we're not talking about. Really deep down, that's not what

we're talking about. So, I didn't deliberately misinterpret anything you said, but it's interesting you thought I did, but I didn't. I genuinely can tell you this absolutely honest place. I didn't. Deliberation is a complicated thing Though because sometimes people do things subconsciously. Sure. But consciously, I did not misinterpret anything. I I heard it and then either I felt like I don't know what territory we're going into here, but this doesn't seem great to me. Or that happened once or all the other times I was sort of like wanted to like passionately engage. Sure. No. And

I respect I and I know what's if I if I ask those questions of you know I'll ask you Francis when you Feel upset about you know I don't know what you might categorize as wokeness can you can you dig down and go what's the uncomfortable feeling for you? Oh absolutely yeah what's the feeling for you? Well, I'm half south. Well, my mother's from Venezuela. I saw the rise of communism. Yeah. BLM had the same slogans that Chavis's government used. A government that means that I will never get justice for my grandfather who was Murdered.

I had family members thrown into prison. Uh leaders of BLM did a black power salute with Maduro, who is a current dictator of Venezuela. I see I don't I see that side of wokeness as akin to socialism/communism which is what destroyed my country and means that my family now live in constant fear. So you feel like this is a very personal geopolitical experiential fear. Yeah. That you live with. So you may see other Things and uh link them together in a way that you think is human and understandable and that I think I think logic

I think there's a there's a political logic behind that. If you see the words abolish capitalism for example which was BLM slogan. I've actually seen capitalism being abolished. I've seen people been I've seen people be shot at during protests by people using the same slogans. I've seen Jeremy Corbyn openly Support Chavis's government. I have a very visceral reaction to that. So it's very interesting. So I mean this is too long but um but I think it's interesting. Do you think do you see now that capitalism unregulated capitalism has gone too far and it's not that

I think you do need to regulate capitalism. Absolutely. There needs to be checks and balances. Of course there is. There needs to be a monopolies commission to make sure that there's Just not one company in charge of everything. Do you fear what's happening with unregulated capitalism around the world now? Yeah, of course I do. So, do you see do you think that BLM could be having a response to unregulated capitalism? No, I think BLM are communists and they want to impose a communist order. That's why they say abolish capitalism. They don't want to regulate capitalism.

This the the meaning lies in the words abolish Capitalism. If you say if you say something, it's like if I say uh I believe the white race is superior, I will take you at your face value. You should take me at my face value when I say that. Just like when they say abolish capitalism, which to me is communism. And when they go on and take photos of themselves with Eduardo Maduro, a dictator who has effectively destroyed my mother's country and has imprisoned members of my family. I tick People at their face value when they

say such things. This might be a whole other podcast, I think. Well, for me it's exactly the same. I mean, uh, we were talking about one specific incident. My my grandmother was was born in a goolag. And what's more, I'm a first generation immigrant to this country. So, when I see all this racial divisiveness being stirred up, I I think it's quite natural that I would be concerned about it. When you antagonize people along racial Lines, we know what happens. If you actually read history, you know what happens, which is when people are encouraged to

go retreat into their identity boxes. They see each other as other and then you begin to have conflict. It's it's very though difficult though for black people in America who are suffering from a different level of state violence and have you know we it's Only a few decades ago that the civil rights movement happened and that there were hoses and dogs turned on them and they were up the back of a bus and not allowed to go to the same schools and not enough has been done to address that. So inevitably, inevitably there will be

uprisings because they are still, you know, huge communities of black people are still stuck in socioeconomic boxes. So can I push can I push back against That? No, I've not pushed back against that. I agree with what you're saying, but that doesn't mean an organization like BLM is a force for good. And I'll give you an example. Travis's government was elected in 1999 due to the fact that society was desperately unequal. white people or what the version of whiteness in Venezuela which is different to our whiteness but anyway uh were in charge there was a

whole sway of people who felt they didn't have access to Resources society was deeply unequal unfair if you were born in what was called lranchos the ghettos you're going to die there all perfectly valid criticisms he came to power and saying things like we're going to abolish capitalism and people thought that it was going to be better for them it wasn't it has made everything in far far worse which is what communism does. Just because people have been marginalized and they have concerns and they want Better outcomes for them all perfectly natural it doesn't mean

that an organization that purports to res represent them is in any way good or noble is my argument. I would suggest though if unless that the powers that be are going to create fairness, justice, space and allow socioeconomic growth and prosperity amongst those communities, there will always continue to be uprising. Do you not see that? That's Exactly what the far right is saying. That's exactly what they're saying. I word for word, you cannot word for word is what they're saying. You you literally cannot keep people suppressed without those people. That's why they're voting for Trump

and that's why they follow Andrew. Yeah. I feel like that there is a different um there is a different sort of uh marginalization for black people in America because of the not that long ago History of slavery. Definitely. Of course, you can't enslave people, bring them there, strip them of everything, strip them of their names, and then never let them get ahead and then, you know, in the 60s, we all know what happened. This is not when the 60s is living memory. Definitely, it's not that long ago. So, what are you what are what are

you suggesting those people do? What I'm suggesting is Martin Luther King was right. Yeah. Well, Martin Luther King Was a complicated figure. We don't have time to get into everything. I'm not saying he was right about his relations with women. I'm saying he was right about the core message of what he was saying, which is he dreamt of a place where everybody would be treated on the context. Sure. But that's not all he said. He also said that the silence of the moderate white was uh in some ways worse than the I don't know the

exact quotes, I shouldn't say it, but is you Know that that the silence the moderate white going everything's fine now. You've got what you've got you've got. That's not what people are saying. When when Francis says he has problems with BLM, he's not saying everything is fine. He's saying BLM is not a constructive force and it isn't and it wasn't. Okay. Your and it isn't and it wasn't. That's not debate. You can't just say isn't wasn't. That's not debate. That's not debate. That's not debate. It's my Opinion. My in my opinion and in France's opinion.

It isn't and it wasn't. That really helps me when you say it's my opinion. Okay. Because when you say it isn't and it wasn't the I'm making a truth claim. Absolutely. Yeah. And I feel like your truth claims close down debate. So like it makes you're afraid to say you don't agree. You just did. But I do and then you go it isn't and it wasn't. And that's it's slightly um it's it feels against the Intellectual ethos of this show. How so? Because you just go it isn't and it wasn't. And it's not like well

of course there are some ways in which and you can say whatever you want. The the intellectual ethos of this show since it's our show I can tell you what it is is you present a set of ideas. Yeah. We interrogate those ideas. We present a set of ideas. You interrogate those ideas. And we all and our viewers most importantly come away with a better Understanding of what you think and what I think. And it's not necessarily to create agreement between you and I. I don't think it's possible. What I think is possible is to

expose my argument in all its falsity and accuracy and to expose your argument in all its falsity. And that's why I'm making truth claims in the in the way that I invite you to make your truth claims. Okay. Well, thanks for the truth claim opportunity. I've enjoyed it kind of. Um, yeah. Well, it's hard, isn't it? In a book, you can be so nuanced and rigorous and you can argue both sides and then as soon as you're out freewheeling, you're like, "Hold on, but I didn't say that and now I haven't got time and now

we've moved past the argument." So, you've had more time than any guest we've ever had on the show. Well, that's very kind. Um, it's more it's I know it's my fault because I've written a book called Six Conversations For Scared to Have and there's six conversations and most people come with a book with one conversation that's that that's what they're talking about. So, I'm very sorry that I've taken up so much time and uh I hope that the There's absolutely no need to have to be sorry. Well, they might have tuned out by now. No,

no, no, no. If they have, they're not hearing your apology. So, you're fine. It's true. Yeah. And if we wanted it to stop, we would have stopped it. And it was it was it was Yeah, it was great. The intention was not to harang you about stuff, but what we do is we try to interrogate ideas and sometimes people interpret that as them being interrogated. That's not absolutely not the intention. Um, so on BLM since we you don't agree that are we done now or is this a post thing or we still recording? Well, I

think we should wrap it up. Yeah, I think we should wrap It up. I think I think we've all I think we've I think we've covered I think otherwise you end up going into this other whole big subject and I think we've both said something about BLM. My that was my feeling. I think we should probably That's absolutely fine. We're done. Yeah, we're done. We're done. Um do you need to say goodbye or anything? No. No, we're done. We'll leave it there.