Entrevista com Epstein #epsteinfiles #epstein

Do you consider yourself a stoic? >> No, I consider myself a hermit. Stoics are not very happy. >> You being a hermit then early 90s Santa Fe was funded for the study of complexity theory. >> It was stud math. So let's let's back up. So why did I buy a ranch in New Mexico 1993? So that's gives you some sense. So I would have funded it in 1990. U Los Alamos which was the high energy lab up in New Mexico was losing all its scientists >> in Los Alamos. It was where Oenheimer where the where

the a lot of the the nuclear weapons program the bomb >> that's where the Manhattan project >> Manhattan project was as Los Alamos. And you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that. >> Yes. because the scientists were going to be they cut the funding for high energy physics but the people who worked in Los Alamos would still be in the Santa Fe area. >> They cut that because the end of the this was the cold war dividend, right? >> I don't remember exactly why. It was because again people thought there was

that physics and high energy physics really wasn't that important >> because that was about nuclear weapons. >> No, it was because they were trying they decided was maybe not right. This was the same time that Murray Galman came up with the term quark. Q U A R K. He he picked it out of a old poem, the word quark. But it was something it was mysterious. So they were starting to understand in the '9s that the in the our world of the physic world there was things that were just unexplainable. They called it strange things.

You gave it a name. You gave it some characteristics. You called it had charm was one of the terms. It had a charm. It had a flavor. It had a color. But nobody really No one, Mr. Bannon, understood what it was, just like the financial system. >> And you wanted to investigate that. >> I I wanted to see if we could build tools so others smarter than me could help investigate it. >> And that was the beginning of your concept of the Santa Fe Institute. >> Yes. And Santa Fe Institute was founded to do study

in this type of >> can you can these areas of strange things be described by some form of mathematics. So that's what I'm trying to get at. The the the the foundational thought, the organizing principle >> of Santa Fe in the high physics lab at um at Los Alamos, which had created the been the the headquarters of Manhattan and the Trinity Project, right? The bomb. >> Yes. >> So you're talking about the the elite, the high priest >> of physics. >> Of physics. >> Yes, sir. >> Which high priest of physics, some subset of that

is also mathematics. >> Yes. They're both similar. project out. One of the tools you want to do is to make sure that in this complex system, the finance system, I'm doing a lot of this for philanthropy and a lot for the good of mankind, but also to be able to understand this complex system, the most complex outside of maybe our body of of the financial world. >> Yes. >> Did they create tools or were you a were you smarter in than the mid as 15 years later than you had been then because of work that

was done at Santa Fe? No, that was it was great. But in fact most of the money most of my philanthropy in the area of can you describe things that appear to be unexplainable by mathematics and can can you fund people who have new ideas and unfortunately when someone thinks they've been able to there was a man Steuart Calfman when they think that okay I figured out how to be able to predict the unpredictable what appears to other people to be unpredictable but my system in those days it was called genetic algorithms can predict the

what things will happen then they all want to make money so they use their systems to try to figure out they know they have figured out the way to make money because they figured out the unexplainable they try they go bankrupt and we start again so in with a cold view what I've come to realize is that the the attempt to mathematize formulize or what in your prior work to understand What really is in today's world still unexplainable is impossible. They're miracles. >> The uh your first head of Santa Fe was Christopher >> Langden. I

think >> Langden from from Austral the the the rock. >> Yes. He was the rock. He was a Nobel Prize winner. >> Yes. >> Yes. And and a wonderful guy. He came out and helped us with the biospher 2 project. He came with Chris Landon. Yeah. Chris Landon was the operating the day. >> Chris was doing artificial life. Murray tried to lead his own artificial life. >> Yes. >> When Chris came to Biosphere 2 for the for the first um big conference we had in 1994, he was one of the most impressive guys there among

all the world's elite. Q Gardens, the Lawrence Livermore Lab, the the the labs at Sandia, um you know, all the all the major universities, Lamont Dy, uh all the big earth observatories, Woods Hole. What set Langdon apart, I thought, and the reason I invited Santa Fe to be part of it was Langdon actually made a presentation that everything and he was making this to scientists, a lot of marine biologists, a lot of people that just beginning, Wally Broker and people were just beginning the study of climate change at that time called global warming. that he

made this compelling presentation that everything's really mathematics. >> It's all just back to math >> and you have to all these experiments you do you're not one of the reasons they're not considered by the high priest in physics as being real experiments is that they don't have a mathematical basis to it and everything has a mathematical basis to it. Langden seemed like a radical visionary. What happened to that concept? You go back 350 years. So you have Isaac Newton, you have Linets. From move forward you have think people like Heisenberg and Gdell Ger and what

every one of those mathematicians and philosophers came to understand is that there's something with there's numbers can describe certain things approximate certain things. But in fact trying to put measurements and numbers on other things that are really unexplainable is folly. It's so 300 years ago they said that unexplainable realm was God. And people who attempted in fact to explain the unexplainable who said yes I understand the unexplainable were charlatans. They were the occults. They were the astrologers. They were the conmen. >> Alchemist. >> Yes. Well, no. Alchemist was in fact they believed that there was

a way to transmute one metal into another. In fact, they always wanted to see if they can create gold. There's no reason if you think about it. They recognized that one metal is different than another metal because it has some additional pieces to it. Has additional neur neutrons or protons or electrons. So because they thought it was a machine, they believed it was a machine. If I can take five protons and add five, that gives me 10. I should be able to get gold to move everything around inside these systems, the molecules transmute one molecule

into another. And if this molecule I've transmuted it into is gold, I'm a rich man. It's back to money. But this something strange happens. Isaac Newton says, "This is really weird. If if I want to push a ball on the table, I have to touch it. I could maybe I have to blow on it, but I actually have to push one side of the ball or the book to move that side. I'm pushing here." And obviously the this thing is what appears to us humans to be solid. So it moves as one thing. But the

only way to get something to move was to touch it or put a force against it. Okay, seems to make sense. Everybody has that experience. You know, I want to lift the glass, I lift it. If I want to push a ball, I push it. If I want to pull a ball, I pull it. But he recognized when the ball fell off the table, fell off the table, it went in a different direction. How's that possible? Nobody pushed the ball down. And he says, "This is crazy. Why did the ball go down?" I didn't push

it. I just let it go. So someone's pushing the ball because I know I am confident that the only thing that gets something to move is with a force that pushes. So there's a force that's pushing the ball down. In fact, he never he called it gravity. He measured how fast it was pulled, but never was able to explain why it happened. How is it? What is gravity? It's this. Everybody says, "Well, why did the ball fall to the ground?" Cuz gravity took it. But what's gravity? That's as Fineman would say, that's the name of

the thing. We have no idea what it is. This goes to Santa Fe. They were trying to put explain the unexplainable. Can we measure? Can we figure out a way to predict the stock markets using these types of chaos complexity? >> Before we get there, let's walk back through. Let's let's go let's let's go back to Newton. >> Pre-N Newton and then Newton. What did Newton solve >> that for millennia up to Newton had not been solved. Then I want to go forward all the way to Santa Fe. What they were trying to solve. Let's

start with just two or three of the basic guys. But let's go with Newton. What pre- Newton it was what? And then why is Newton such a >> a genius >> in such a in in the I think mathematically they told me one time I've seen there's been 115 billion people roughly that have lived on the earth. Uh and of that 115 billion new >> are you sure that's a number? That sounds very high. We only have seven now. >> I I think in the history of the earth I think I I'll I'll pull I'll

pull up the the stat for you but I think it's 115 billion people. They figure >> that probably is inflation. That's why you see have lived through have lived through the have lived on earth but he's one of the handful of the most important >> what did he solve for why is he so important for how we live today and then we want to go through lienets and the other two or three other major ones to get us to Santa Fe >> well that's a long it's a long journey >> it's this is the heart

of the this is the heart of what we're trying to do >> let me take a bit of a detour just a second >> what if you if you went to high school and the last year in your high school You took calculus. So Isaac Newton sort of invents calculus. Well, that sounds invathetician >> to torture to torture seniors in high school before they graduate. >> Yes, but obviously no. Yes, the answer is yes. Certain people can't could never do calculus. Uh >> why why is it why is calculus so why is that the dividing

line between you know to me people who can handle that and can go on to do certain things and people just hit the wall even if they know math it seems to me that there's that that calculus is the is the thing that changes it it it it bridges that's because it's about the the about the theory of change and the theory of how things change it it's a great question but in fact what calculus does is it's it's somewhat philosophical. That's why mathematics is is you know they used to Newton wasn't a mathematician. He

was called a geometer. That's what they used to call themselves. They understood geometry and and numbers. But there was an there's an old conundrum uh where it says if and during Pythagoras days Zeno's paradox it's called where they said well if I take if the wall is 2 feet away from me and I take one step that's halfway to the wall that'll be one foot away and if I take another step that's half again that'll be a half a foot away then a quarter of a foot. I could walk forever but never touch the wall.

Doesn't sound realist. Doesn't make any sense in our real lives of the physical. But what Newton understood is many problems were like that. Many things approached the wall or in his in calculus approached the limit but never really reached it. So he said it's okay. You don't have to reach it. We can do lots of the mathematics as if it was so close it was almost there. And we could do lots of mathematics almost being at the limit. And this is really important, Steve, for today because most of the science up until today was things

that are starting to approach the limit. this. You were taught in high school that if you had one divided by 0, what if you remember your high school algebra, you were told, "What's the answer to that?" Is there an answer to one divided by 0? No. If you were in high school, it's like stay away from it's the boogeyman. Uh you could write it down as it's undefined. It's not able to be determined. that there's a bunch of things but in fact one divided by zero is a strange things happen. It's a world of the

strange. And it what I'll explain to you after is that when you get one divided by zero, you get into a world we don't know what happens. The answer is it's not explainable. We can give it we can call it things like undetermined is what we can give have a convention to say it it's x y or z but in real life we don't know what happens when you are actually at the limit. So that's an Newton thought the same concept is that the limits were Philip God. You got close to God but you can

never be God. He had this sort of religious interpretation. >> Okay, I want to go back to Newton. Why is Newton such a big dividing line in mankind's history? What is it about Newton? What is about what he trying to solve? What did they not know beforehand? And what the because we live to a degree in a not Newtonian universe although I realized later sub sub particle atomic physics but at least for a while it was Newtonian. So what's the dividing line? Why is he so important? Why is he an inflection point in mankind's movement

from the swamp to the stars? >> That's a great question. The stars were by Kepler. What what Newton starts to allow us to do is to make predict accurate predictions. Remember that we've got talked about that with money about the things in our physical world. How cars he didn't have cars then how horse carriages moved how things how bowling balls moved. How pool cues and pool excuse me pool table balls. people tried to solve that before Newton. many >> Heracitis or or or you know Platinus Pythagoras had had these great that we hear about had

they try to solve the same problem not the same problem they try to again what Pythagoras did he starts to figure out this relationships in triangles for example everyone knows the A square plus B square is equal to C square that Pythagorean theorem which is basically says these shapes in a triangle each side of The triangle has a fixed relationship with the other two sides. That's strange. He knew again, but it was all numbers. This was a a system of things in the [snorts] physical world. And Pythagoras says we can start putting numbers on things

that help you predict how they will behave. You can add two triangles and make a square. Some different shapes. They were looking at geometric forms. Newton says, "Well, I want to know how planets move. I want to know how things around me move. Can we find formulas? Can I find formulas that explain what I see in the physical world? How physical things interact and how they describe one another." I again that the fact that two things, two solid masses for some very strange unknown reason unknown today attract one another no matter what they are. People

have seen the experiment you hang of something two little metal balls from a string they move towards each other. In fact there's a they move towards each other was a very I'm very specific. So when you drop the ball to the floor of this room. Newton says in fact the room came up a bit to meet the ball. The room moved. It's impercept. You can't really perceive that motion but they attracted each other with certain ratios. So he started to be able to measure things in the physical world and that was great advances. It also

now you wanted to move very quickly. Unfortunately, most people, especially in the 20th century, 19th century, said, "Well, like Newton, let's measure everything. Let's measure people's behavior. Let's measure their psychology. Let's measure their health. You go to the We could have my blood test. Let's measure everything. We measure [clears throat] Wall Street. >> Their their voting habits. >> Measure. Measure. Measure. Can we put a number on how much I care for my wife? Could I put a number on how I feel? And we tried unfortunately we ma tried to mathematize the finer things in life

and then recognized that there was things that unfortunately just fall outside everyone. Schroinger wrote a very famous book about what is life. He was trying to figure out a way. Can he describe the difference formulaically between things that are alive and things that are dead? The answer is no. The things that are alive in my world are miracles, not magic. Magic has a bad connotation. You don't believe in the spirit or the soul. That's what animates people is your spirit or your soul. That's what But you've have you ever seen someone die? When they die,

their spirit leaves. >> Their soul leaves. No question. So in fact >> there's no question to you about that. >> No question. >> There's no question to you that there is some animating life force within us that leaves when you're dead. >> Yes. In fact I refer to the soul this obviously a certain the questions in the past even during >> people would normally think you were soulless. So have you just no but have you talk about you actually believe in it and have done some thinking about it is pretty shocking in its own right

isn't it? Well again mathemat linets and linenets thought >> you know Newton was at Cambridge and he was the head of the math department right he's a professor essentially >> but linenets who was lineness a German professor >> yes but what linets said is the soul is so strange that because God took chemicals which is simply the material like tables and he somehow made this material able to have a thought how strange changes that not only does it it have a soul but this some way it was put together that this material substance can is

able to think. So when you say to me it's obvious to everyone that there's such a thing as a soul. Now if you're part of the charlatanville you'll try to explain it to people. The soul I describe as the dark matter of the brain. Why is it dark matter? Because in high energy physics nowadays you hear terms of dark matter, dark energy. Again, terminology complicated term. Why is it dark matter? Cuz we can't see it. That's all. What? What do you mean you can't see it? Well, somehow we see something moving towards this area of

darkness. Something I can see this thing. This appears to me to be empty. It's just black. But I see it being drawn this way. So I say, well, I know if this were matter, that would follow that equation. If this was solid, it it would explain the way this particle moves, but I can't see anything here. So I'll just call it dark matter. And we'll say, I don't know what it is, but it behaves as if there was something there. The soul is obvious to everyone that there's something different between things that are alive and

things that are not alive. But we have no idea what it is. It's currently unexplainable. I believe we need an entirely different system of analysis to try to figure out. >> But no, with Newton, you know, with all his alchemic study, al chemical studies and and and and things he worked on, the spiritual side, Libnets that just talked about the soul, Schroeder talked about what is life. If a modern scientist or someone that you funded at MIT or Harvard or one of these things talked in those types of terms, they would be considered to be

a wing nut today, wouldn't they? They would not be they would not be on the path uh for tenure, right? >> Unless they were in the philosophy department. >> That this is exactly my point. We're talking about three of the greatest mathematicians in mankind's history that have really changed mankind. Talking like this, what happened? How do we get to a situation where they could not be in the high physics, you know, they could not be in the mathemat in the mathematics department or working in >> high energy physics. >> Good. It's an easy answer. Newton

was a combination of mathematician or geometry then and philosopher. And as time went on that those disciplines seem to move apart. We had philosophy who some of the philosophers can't do math and some of the mathematicians and again mathematicians often break into two categories. People that solve problems those are more like geometries and the old is just problem solvers and then there's thinkers theoreticians. They're more like the old movement towards philosophy. But neither one of those two groups have been able to figure out why something is alive as opposed to something that's not alive. No

one's been able to describe what the soul is, but we all know it exists. And my I I think um what we need is a new science is a bad word. I I think science only describes the things we already know about the physical world. In fact, there's an argument that the physical world that we see has been created out of our systems to be of mathematics. Mathematics, everyone knows mathematics describes the physical world much greater than it should unless you my view the physical world really comes out of conscious beings that have mathematics. So

they create it this table appears to you and I to be solid to a bat it or if because we have light that's bouncing off the table into my our eyes it appears solid. If instead of eyes that responded to wavelengths of visual light, our eyes responded to radio waves, the radio frequencies. It's not different. It's the same type of frequency as light with different um speeds. The table's invisible. We know that we our phone works in this room. So the waves are coming through the windows. The waves are coming through the walls. So the

walls are invisible to that type of radiation, that type of energy. The walls are I can see them because my eyes a physical system determines that the walls are there. you with with Murray Gel, you founded or with the original donor and what had the idea of Santa Fe Institute in 10 or 15 years later that effort to study the complexity of systems mathematically? >> Yes. Total failure. >> A total failure. >> Total failure. >> Why is that? It it's the failure of science because in fact if if to some extent science doesn't describe romance.

I don't know why I'm attracted to somebody. I don't know people are attracted to each other and some everyone has the same feeling. They've seen someone walk in the room and they say, "Oh, that person gives me the a creepy feeling." Science has tried to describe science doesn't describe what creepy feelings means. They just know it's a creepy feeling. I think women, as I said the last time, have an intuitive sense. What is intuitive? They have intuition. They have feelings. And they're able to deal in the realm of things that men, especially men like myself,

find unexplainable. They have great women have intuition. Men see things a bit differently. They men want to measure everything. Women are not really that interested in measuring. in in what you're saying in macro terms, you actually think science, mathematics, maybe ultimately technology is moving to that more intuitive. I think science and math are old-fashioned. And unfortunately, people are still taught that they have to learn algebra in school and certain things in school as opposed to learning to give have. Is this what Larry Summers was trying to get at? Maybe he didn't say it perfectly enough,

but what he was trying to get to in that system, the systems we study today, the way mathematics is either taught or understood that women just haven't gotten up to the highest realms of engineering or physics or mathematics because of that. And you're you're actually implying that there's a either new branch of science or we've hit an inflection point like in Newton that's going to go in a Newton took mankind in a different direction because he was able to measure. Then you hit subatomic, you know, non-Newtonian physics later. Are you saying that you think there's

another developing field that's coming up that may take us I don't know how many decades to get our hands around, but that that's what's evolving out of this? >> Yes. Yeah. In in fact I think that mathematics it's not the end of science and every year someone says it's the end of we can't discover it everything there's lots to discover with relationship to the physical world but we know a lot already with in respect to the unexplainable world we almost know nothing women again sense it and instead of Larry Summers I just I won't digress

too much but Howard Gardner early on said there's not one form of intelligence. It's not mathematical intelligence. There's emotional intelligence that there's kinesthetic intelligence. You know, there there's this argument that I reject that black people are less intelligent than white people. It's not true. We know, for example, that if if I was in a in the forest and I had to run from the lion or figure out a way not to be eaten and my com competition is a local African, I'm going to I'm the one who's getting eaten because they have the intelligence to

deal with their local environment. So, it's just different. It's not better, it's not worse, but there's many differences amongst different types of people. And so people have different intelligences and they excel in some intelligences usually and less so in others. >> When did it come to because the world of high finance is a world of pure reason or is it is it a lot of emotion and gut checks and and and you know on trading desk and central banks when these decisions get made? Is it is it that high church like the high church of

science of of high energy physics or is it as much emotion that comes in as as much as the mathematics and the reason? >> It's a great question. I think if you talk to really experienced and successful traders and you ask them how they know what's going on, they can't give you an answer. They don't know. They feel it. They can feel the way the market's moving. They can feel the way the stock's moving. And that these are not very well-defined terms. It's not it's difficult to put in mathematics terms, how did I feel it?

You could look back and make guesses what I was seeing. But great traders feel it and then act on their feelings. That's the difference. Many people feel it but are afraid because they want a mathematical justification before they take that next step. When you first got on the trading desk at Bear Sterns in the late '7s or mid70s, were you shocked by how little actual understanding of mathematics that the traders comprehended? Yeah. Again, we had a Texas Instrument calculator. Most most stock brokers in the especially before 1975, if they were good stock brokers, could add.

That's about it. They could multip if you could multiply, you were already in the top 15% of stock brokers. Stock broker simply meant I there's a great there's a story when I went to the first person I I had no money and I said how much money do you make a year and he said $400,000 said impossible I'm I'm making $10,000 >> that's probably more in your family he had made in his entire existence >> yes and he makes it in a year I said what do you do and he said it's too complicated for

you to understand which is what the main thrust of Wall Street people. They they want to tell you it's too complicated because if if you understood that that person was simply he had a brother-in-law, in fact, in this case, who ran the pension fund of General Motors, his brother-in-law would call him and say, "Buy a,000 IBM." He'd hang up the phone, he'd write it out on a ticket and walk it to a window. That was his entire skill set. Hello. Write what my brother-in-law says, walk it to a ticket window. G give me an example

when you were on the trading desk in the early days of Bear Sterns of a time that you felt either complete uncertainty or you saw total panic where people something was happening that people couldn't foretell and that they were like in a in an airplane cockpit where it's going wrong. Walk us through that. >> In 1978 I think it was um across the news wires uh there had been a collapse of the currency in Thailand. on the other side of the world had no relationship to me. I wasn't sure where Thailand was. But the fact

that a currency, a country's money had all of a sudden dropped tremendously in value affected the rest of the world's markets. And people panicked because they never had they had never seen that before. a very small part of a very complex system had a shock throughout the whole system. So prices on Park Avenue apartments, the bond markets, the stock markets, every started to gyate. You know, there's an old mathemat mathematics expression that if a butterfly wings in Mexico make the wrong turn, it spins out and eventually when it by the time it gets to Canada,

it turns into a a tornado. So these are part of complex systems. So yeah, Wall Street in in certain parts. >> Santa Fe Institute was supposed to actually come up with a formula [clears throat] for that for the butterfly wings. Wh why in 15 years did you reach the end of of at least that experiment? every attempt to that's why my that's why it's so exciting now because we I think certain people are starting to realize that there's so many things that are unexplainable that that we have to think about them differently. Music is a

great example. Just a it's a common man's example. You know, when you hear a certain song, it makes you feel a certain way. How does it do that? We don't know. We can't mathematize it. And even that music, Steve, nowadays, we compress music. When you have a violin, it's compressed onto your iPhone. So, what does compression mean? I'm taking lots of information and I'm cutting it into lots of pieces and squishing it together. And when I squish it or compress it, I have to take out lots of pieces. But I say that they're not very

important pieces. It's those pieces that we take out when we compress data to me are the most interesting parts of life. You just said a while ago part of this new search for science may have may go back to when people were actually talking about a soul and you said there no doubt in your mind that there is a soul. Describe for me what you mean by that. What do you mean by soul? What do you mean soul different than the physical analog body that we're we're seeing on film right now. It's it's it's difficult

to describe in words. I mean I I'm not a I'm not a poet. Poems get a little closer to what that really means. But we can even the concept of what is life becomes complicated when you deal with plants and seeds. Is a seed alive? I don't know. Certain people would say no, it's dead. When when you're a banana, my one of my favorite examples is the banana that's sitting on the countertop in your kitchen today. Is it alive or dead? >> What do you think about human life? When is what what is human? Tell

me about human life. >> But your banana is alive. That banana is breathing. It's on your you say that's impossible Jeffrey. No. >> Is the banana conscious? >> Um all these word these are words. So you're everyone's trying to fit a very complicated concepts into a very small box called cons conscious or alive. It's these don't fit in that way. So if you put your banana in a bag and put another fruit in with it, the fruit ripens faster because the banana breathes with it. That's how we don't understand most of those things. So you

asked the question >> you talk about the life. What about human life? >> What about it? >> What? Tell me what what do you think? What do you think human life is? >> It's a miracle. We It's a miracle. And when I say miracle, I can't I can't explain it and I make no attempt to explain it at the moment. This we don't know how to think about it. And anyone again another one of the Fineman quotes when he was talking about quantum physics. He said, "Anyone, Jeffrey, who says they understand quantum physics and quantum

mechanics and quantum behavior, you know they're lying." >> Let's talk about it. That's post Newtonian. Talk talk about what's the difference. Who founded quantum mechanics? Why is quantum mechanics taking Newtonian physics and taking it to the next level? >> It it's forms a much broader category. >> Let's go back to this desk. You you use the thing of Newton using this desk. What is sub? Why can't Newton's theory explain everything? Why did subatomic quantum mechanics or quantum physics have to come into explain explain this? Well, qu so let's let's go right back to square one.

Why is it called quantum physics? So quant is a word that simply means packet small amount. So it's quantized. So we recognized when we recognized that this this table appears appears another very complicated word solid to us it has it's really made up of molecules or atoms and atoms we we've given lots of names to what some of the behaviors when if you were in school when you and I were in school in the 50s the model was a little center thing in the middle and electron went around and around it it was seen as

a ball that went around and around it. And as we started to look at say, well, let's see what this ball looks like. I want to be able to examine that little thing called an electron. We found out there was nothing there. There wasn't the thing. It it was simply a cloud of energy that we can call an electron. So we already started to see mysterious things as we go into very super small quantities. Quantum physics. So quantum physics started to go into the very small and at very small distances we we see things that

we can't explain. We just cannot explain. How am I doing on time? >> Uh four minutes >> fine. Um and to summarize no sorry um let's go back to human life. When do you think human life starts? >> It's not these. So you see this is the question you're asking me to measure something again. It's the >> can't be measured. You're just you just hate making commitments say I'm I'm I'm peeling this onion back a layer at a time. >> All your and happy target can't be measured can be measured like that is that to

say measure makes it's a commitment. You don't even like a commitment when you answer a question. >> I don't >> there's a saying in golf commit to the shot. >> I don't know what it means to be measured. it. You do know what it means to be measured. You're one of the leading currency traders, uh, hedge fund guys or stock market financial wizards. You're in the high priesthood of high finance. You certainly know how to measure. That's why you're a billionaire. Any other answer besides that is total and complete And you know it. >> I

know very few things. >> You you know things can be measured. You measure every day. You weigh and measure every day. You weigh and measure people. You weigh and measure leaders. You weigh and measure economies. You weigh and measure politics. You weigh and measure. You weigh your whole your whole life in fact is measuring. >> It's that's so what you've now done is a great thing is you've used the word measure a mathematic term in a common vernacular and abused it. So I don't even recognize what it means. It's so abusive to my field. >>

Why? Let's go to that. In in mathematics measure means and measure means what specifically? That's there there's no spec. It's it's a an approximation or give it giving something a number. If I Einstein said >> we're not asking you to go to the ninth decimal point on >> Oh, that you didn't say that before. >> No, you're not going to the ninth. >> I don't What if I say measure how how tall are you? >> You'd say in your case six foot, >> but is it 6' one inch >> give or take six between 5'11

and six feet? >> But what's that? But I want So the question is I want an accurate >> Zenos. I got Zeno's paradox. >> I don't even know what it means to measure you. Is that am I measuring the top of your hair, the top of your skull? Which and the the finer the more >> you're getting you're getting that's you're being rabbitical. This is like >> I I shaved my beard off. I used to be >> No, my point is isn't that what isn't that going through the Torah where you where you're you're you're

you're parsing every every uh every definition. >> No, >> you do you however we broadly define measure. Your life literally is about measurement, is it not? It's about get putting numbers on things so that I can try my best >> that you can call it whatever you like. If that if that makes you feel better, >> you know it back to your scientific inquiry. >> No, it even a number it it people don't a number is is a complicated. >> When did you come when did you come to this in when did you come to

this aha moment? was when it was in when it was in your solitary confinement when the biggest financial crisis in world history was going on in your 7 by9 jail cell with your metal bed and your and your two brushes cuz you were trustee with the brown uniform on trustee spelled wrong. Is that the moment of clarity that you had about science and and and Newtonian physics and everything that we can measure is really not going to be the way we go forward. It's going to be some more much more esoteric uh emotional intelligence thing.

Was that your Was that your moment of clarity? >> I wish it was because it would make such a great story for this interview, but it it's not. It's the fact that I lead such a privileged life to come across. So, >> when did you if it didn't happen then? When did it or did it happen before? I was going to hopefully get to the I I I'm in a privileged position to have some of the world's smartest people come to my house and tell me what they think about different subjects. And I finally realized

that the thing that they had most in common was there was this area, this area, no matter how smart they were, that when I asked them the questions, they said they'd have to resort to a 500 or a thousand-y old response to that question, which was, I don't know. >> You know who um who else found that out? in >> Socrates. That's what Socrates kept doing, right? Socrates kept asking all the experts, >> he would go through, you know, question after question after question and realize at the end they didn't really know under they really

didn't basically understand what they were talking about. And one of the things that people won't enjoy, it turns out that potentially one of the bad things to teach children is how to write. It's imp writing, reading and arithmetic was supposed to be everyone's supposed to be taught. But writing forces you into a very narrow channel of thinking you have to write certain in a certain form in a certain way in a certain linear pattern. So your thinking becomes somewhat narrow. The most interest the reason I brought up writing is one of the recent discoveries of

mine with respect to Socrates, Plato's and Aristotle is they never wrote anything. They spoke and people around who could write wrote. Socrates could think. So that that that was >> Jesus of Nazareth was the same way, right? Never wrote anything. >> I thought he was a carpenter. >> He he was a carpenter. >> Didn't he need like a little carpenters? No, I don't get that. >> But at least his written record. One last thing. Um >> thank you for having me to to your house. Um, >> vegetable juice. >> Let's go back with vegetable juice.

>> When when did when did that >> the beginning of that was there any one aha moment in all these great thinkers? Did it happen before 2008? Was it after that came up over I know many years but when did you actually realize hey something new got to something new's got to be developed? Yeah, that's great. is that I've w because um again I'm privileged enough to have people around me who've given lots of philanthropic gifts to uh institutions of higher learning and when I said to the impact have you jud how do you judge

the impact of your giving and we sat down and said no new no really new ideas have come out and I realized that of course it hasn't come out because we've been looking at using science science and mathematics and it's the wrong tool. It's obvious. >> Institutions that are set up and try to put forward knowledge and and understanding and truth, should they take your money? >> Derek Bach at Harvard said taking money for good causes is a good thing. So if Hitler if Hitler took all the gold out of the out of the teeth

of the Jews and said I want to give this to H Highleberg University to fund the Libnets chairs uh so I can study high energy physics Derek Bach would say that was fine again it's these questions are questions where people good people on both sides like your Charlottesville could differ. I I don't I don't know the answer. So tell so so tell us tell us the two give us the two answers. What the one answer why it shouldn't be and then the one answer what Derek Bach says I'll take essentially take cash from anybody because

I got so many projects so many good guys and this is the way I'll do it. So I'm indifferent to where the cash comes. Money is money and if I got good guys I'm the producer says these are good people and this is good research. Okay, I'll take the cash from however from any source including you. What's the other argument? Let me give you that that I know in in my case I've >> Is your money dirty money >> if you live >> I just as a question is your money dirty money? >> No it's

not. So in fact >> why is it not dirty money? >> Because I I earned it my heart. >> But you you earned it. You earned it. We went back to this before. You earned it. You earned it advising the worst people in the world, right? That do enormous bad things. uh and just to make more money. >> So if I instead of asking me the question, should you take the money? Because I think it's a legitimate question. >> You think it's a legitimate question? >> Yes. No question. Because what I because I think about

I think you have ethics is always a complicated subject. But I can tell you that with the money I gave to help try to eradicate polio in Pakistan and India, instead of asking me whether that money was should be given to these children for vaccines, I think you might want to ask their mothers who who received the vaccine who know their child now won't get polio and ask them if Epstein should have helped these people. If we walked, if we walked in, you're you're a mathematician, you're a mathe you're you're a mathematician. If we walked

into that clinic >> where they're giving that money out to these people that are the most dire rates of poverty and and and sickness and told them that the money was coming from a what are you class three sexual predator? >> Tier one. >> Your was tier tier one's the highest and worst. >> No, I said I'm the lowest. >> You're the lowest. Okay. Tier one, you're the lowest. >> Um but a criminal. >> Yes. >> That the money came from them. What what percentage of people do you estimate I understand you don't like probabilities

do you estimate would say I don't care I want the money for my children >> I would say everyone said I want the money for my children >> did they know where the money came from >> if I think if you told them if I told them the devil the devil >> himself >> the devil himself said I'm going to exchange some dollars for you to your child's life >> do you think you're the devil himself >> no but I I do have a good mirror >> it's a serious question do you do Do you

think you're the devil himself? >> I know. Why would you say that? >> Because you have all the attributes. You're incredibly smart. You remember the devil is somebody knows what the the devil's brilliant. You read Milton's you read Milton's Paradise Lost. >> No, the devil scares me. >> This Satan is Satan is the is the he he he is the he is at the number one or two archangel. And the reason he goes to hell and leads the rebellion is because he can't be the top guy. >> And his thing is, I'd rather I'd rather

reign in hell than serve in heaven. >> I saw that in a movie once called American Dharma. I don't remember who said it. Okay, we have to go. >> Okay, good. Okay, that was good. Every week it [music] seems there are more disturbing revelations about the Jeffrey Epstein case. victims, collaborators, all kinds of evidence, pictures, and documents that all get into graphic detail about what Jeffrey Epstein was doing. Just recently, in the last few days of this recording, an article came out in the New York Times Sunday magazine talking about the very early stages of

Jeffrey Epstein's cons and the way he was able to amass a fortune which enabled him to carry out this human trafficking scheme. And we're hearing more from the victims, the survivors, including Juliet Bryant, who met Epstein in South Africa when she was just 20 years old. And she's got a harrowing story to tell, not only about the things she saw him do, but the experiences, including things that were never reported before, medical crimes, things that will shock you. And we're lucky to have Juliet Bryant take a seat with me now all the way from South

Africa. Juliet, thank you so much for having a seat with me. How are you? >> Hi Chris. Thank you so much for having me on. Um I'm doing well considering the circum circumstances. >> Yes, >> easy everything that I've been through as well as many of the other victims. And that's why I'm here speaking out for victims both alive and dead. You know, Juliet, and we're going to get into all of this here, but it begs the question, in some ways, it would be easier for you not to talk about this, to bury it, to

just to move on with your life. Why is it so important to you to continue to speak out about this, to share