Raising Children With Hope

Well, good morning. It is really good to be together. I know that your minds and hearts are probably totally full from the last couple of days. And you're waking up this morning just in a bit of a daze, and you're about to go it for one more time and you're totally full. It's like when you're eating a meal, and it's done and somebody brings something that looks really good, like a conversation with these three sisters up here, and you're like, okay, I want that, but I don't even know how much I can take. So, anyway,

I hope, I hope this Will be, edifying and not overwhelming. So, we're going to have a conversation about raising children with hope for them and the world. So just a little bit of set up, just kind of the nuance there that we want to have a conversation about what it means, and not just in our homes, but beyond our homes. I don't assume that everybody in this room is a mom or a wife. I know that there are many single sisters who might be here this morning, but for us to think yes, in our homes

and then beyond our homes in the church, what does it look like to live, to see the next generation, love a great God and accomplish the Great Commission? To liv,e to love him with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, And live to spread his glory in the world, which both go totally against the grain of the world around us. So I, I told them as we were talking about this, this conversation, I just want to like, lob some things out there and let them just go. So I'm here to facilitate a conversation between three

sisters who I have much respect for. So Ann Voskamp down here, you know her from books she's written, let's give it up for God's grace, Ann Voskamp. Books she's written that have sold millions of copies. And, but far more important than that, and Heather and I have just had the pure joy and privilege Of getting to know Ann's heart as wife, as a mom of seven, and through the ups and downs of being a mom of seven and just praying together, walking through challenges together, and pressing into Christ together. So I have deep respect for

Ann Voskamp and highly commend all that she has written to you, including many books we've used in our home and discipling our children, as well as just encouragement in our own hearts. And then for the very first time, this mother daughter combination on stage together, Melissa and Emma Kruger. So Melissa is basically making this whole conference happen. And has, by God's grace, been willing to come to this breakfast, but, yeah, she leads discipleship and program and all the variety of other things at The Gospel Coalition and has written many books, including "Parenting With Hope," that

we kind of hijacked the, name of this conversation based off of, so sorry, I didn't know if that was copyrighted or if that was okay to do, but we did it. So this is Melissa and then her daughter Emma, who is our recent graduate a year ago from UMC Chapel Hill and is, okay, we've got a few North Carolina folks. Then, part of the Summit Church, has gone into nursing, has been doing a year of nursing so far, and a month from today will be getting married to her fiance, who is headed to Malaysia right

now. So we're praying for, good trip and a good return between now and a month from today. So, yeah, I just, all right, let's just dive in, and I hope, I've just prayed, we've prayed together and individually that this would be edifying to you and wherever you find yourself. I love how conversations like this, the Holy Spirit, just Trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide in different ways that will, I hope, just land in different hearts and lives and circumstances and situations. Some of you are going through great days when it comes to raising

up the next generation. Some of you are going through hard days, and great days and hard days are all represented up here on this stage. So I'll, I'll kick it to you Anne to start. When you think about raising children with hope for them in the world, what comes to your mind? That's like the biggest lob I can give for you to just take it and run. Well, the other great answer with is God's Word. So 1 Peter 1:3-5, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to his great mercy, he

has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time. We have a living hope in Jesus. There is, hope is a person. We are leaning into him. We can't, I don't know what you're facing right now in your ministry, in your home, in your family relationships, but you can't lose hope because hope is a

person, and he hasn't lost you. He's walking with you every step of the way. And I, I was born into a non-Christian family, an unbelieving home. I married the youngest of nine, and it was a very, actually they ran child evangelism fellowship, good news Bible clubs for 23 years in their home, 80 kids every Friday night, and on Darrell's mother's wall, there was this little plaque that said, "Only one life. It will soon be passed. Only once done for Jesus will last. Live for Jesus, Live for Jesus." At a thrift store, I found the same

little print. I have it on the wall in the living room, and pray that over the kids every single night. Hope really is about only one life will soon Be passed. Only what's done for Jesus will last. Live for Jesus. So to pray that over our children and trust that that God is going to take that seed and reap a harvest for all eternity. Yeah, when I think of that too, I think of, I think it's Romans 15:13. If I'm wrong, just correct me. But may the God of all hope fill you with hope. Yeah.

So it's because we have the source of hope that we can be filled with hope, right? It can't, we can't just, and it's the object that matters like you were saying. It's not just, you know, like at Christmas, It's like, be hopeful, be joyful, believe. But it's like in what? Exactly. You know it's because we serve a God of hope that we can be hopeful. Exactly, exactly. And coming back to Romans, I, I think of that verse, and I think it's Romans 5 where it says talking about a hope that does not put us to

shame. And I think about the world, and all of the hopes that are putting people to shame and are not satisfying them. I even was praying in the car the other day thinking about getting married, and it's like so hopeful. And you had this expectation and thinking, oh, even this, this thing that I'm excited for and planning for, it's not going to satisfy. And then to think that there is a hope that we have that will exceed every possible expectation we could have for it, and that that is a thing that the world does not

have. And so, when I think of even in our home trying to be people that we're hopeful of this thing, this person, who would always be enough and always satisfy. And then there is this need that we feel to go to a world that is being put to shame by the hopes of the world. So. I, wow, I'm just encouraged and convicted. We've not scripted any of this. We've got some questions we might dive into, but, one just being reminded as I'm listening and hope in a person that when it comes to children, teenagers in

our home, in the church, like yes to point them to God's Word as his law, his commandments, his truth. But to make sure at the root of all that, we're pointing them to a person, so they don't just become moral. I do. I follow the rules. I do this stuff, and they miss a heart for Jesus and the process that it's not just about getting them to obey in certain ways or do certain things, but to love And be loved by Jesus. And then, the other direction my mind is going as I'm listening is, just

in my own heart, that my hope is not that my hope is in a person as well. It's not ultimately in how my kids are going to turn out or the circumstances in my parenting at any given moment because that that's a recipe for a lot of ups and downs if when it comes to hope, but to keep hoping in Jesus for my kids, or keep hoping in Jesus for the next generation, like that's that's really key to keep the focus on him as the person. What you just said I think is so important because

if we're hoping in our children, that is a huge burden to put on them. We can we can actually make an idol out of our children that they're, and we can realize that actually my identity is wrapped up in their accomplishments as opposed to my identity being in Christ alone. And to, to lay those idols down and to say that to understand that my parenting, our children aren't computer programs that if we program something, we get this outcome. Our children are persons created in the image of God, and it's not about an outcome. It's about

me coming to Jesus and praying for my children. So I just yeah, that parenting isn't a formula. It's about us being faithful, and what does that look like? We aren't about being a a picture perfect family, but is our family really a picture of the gospel of Jesus Christ? All right, so let me ask. Let's kind of drill down on a practical level, what are some practical things that happen in the Kruger or the Voskamp home to instill hope into, yeah, into your home? You guys have heard my mom talk a lot about the Kruger

household, and now you get to hear it from me. Now, now the truth comes out. Just tell us the real story, Emma. I was actually telling my mom this story last night. We were talking about this panel and talking about her talks on parenting and things that I remember growing up and a phrase that we would use in the college ministry I was in was, "More is caught than taught." And I think that both of my parents modeled that really well, but I specifically remember when I was probably 6 or 7, my mom, I would

watch her every morning sitting, reading her Bible, spending time with God, praying for us, Writing in this journal that was full of prayers for our family. And, she came up to me with this little spiral pink notebook, and she did not say in my every morning, you need to be up reading your Bible and writing in this journal, and I'm going to check you on it. It was this is what I do to spend time with God. And she gave me probably like a similar thing to the here method, like highlight what you see, and

go through it. But I still have that journal, and there are prayers that I wrote as a seven year old that I get to look back on. Some of that are really funny, like, I wanted to be an actress or, you know, but other really sweet ones that I was praying and she cultivated that, not in this way of doing more, But kind of just showing the way she was living her life. And as a kid, you're like, my mom is the coolest and still is the coolest, and you want to be more like them.

And so I just think even still, that's like the one of the greatest gifts as a kid to get it from your parents. So I then told her I had no memory of the pink notebook. I was like, "Oh really? That's great. Good. Good job. Okay, good." Wow, that's so good actually. I hope I've done something that I don't remember that would lead my child to say that one day like that would be awesome. I'm not going to hope in that, but that would be really awesome. It's good. Yeah, I think it's really beautiful, Melissa.

When the kids were all really little, we had six kids across ten years. So there were a lot, and we homeschool. So they were all there, all of the time. And I think it's really, I never wanted I never wanted my quote unquote quiet time to be compartmentalized behind a door. I wanted to do that in front of the kids so that, I mean, they would pull up with their little story Bibles or their little journals and their crayons. I wanted them to see that we don't, we don't compartmentalize time with God into this hour

over here. But like, we're trying to live a one his life where Jesus is in all the parts and pieces of our lives. So right there, you going ahead and modeling that this is how I press into Jesus. Our middle daughter, Shalom, is home from university, and I really like the kitchen table to be cleared, and there's nothing on the kitchen table, but I have found it to be such a joy having her home from university That she has her women's study Bible and her journal and her pack of all of her highlighters sitting on

the kitchen table. And she comes up at about 5:00 in the morning before she goes to the barn to do chores with my husband, to do her Bible reading and journaling. And I am so grateful for the stack of those books on our table. But I have no problems with those on my kitchen table at all. But to see that there's no greater joy to see your children, the think that when they were like this high with their little crayons that, you know, see them with their highlighters. So I think, yes, it's the, it's the

caught and not taught. They're going to actually, we can't instill something that we don't have in us. So what, we can't actually produce fruit in our children's lives. That is a work of God. Our job is to, how am I abiding in the vine myself that I am producing, by my surrender, Jesus is producing that in me? And I think so much of what parenting we can think of if I do, if I read my Bible, this will happen. It can be the same thinking like spiritual disciplines. If I do these things, this happens. These

things are means of grace that the Holy Spirit that Jesus Himself works through. So we offer this up as a means of grace, that God then can actually stir in the heart of our children to produce that fruit. And what I love about this, too, you know, we're talking about we're rooted, we're abiding that our parenting is actually not so much having a focus on our child. You know, I was thinking about, like, prayer time in your family. It can be like, "Hey, Emma, what's your prayer request? What are what are you going through?" And

that's what we're tempted to do as parents, so that they know we love them and we want to pray for our kids. But One thing I do know that we really try to do was pray for our missionaries. This is so simple, right? This is not taking them on big missionary trips. This is not traveling the world with them necessarily. But it's just saying, hey, who are in our church, our local church, who are some of the missionaries our church supports? And then when they come and visit and you get to say, "Oh, you remember,

hey, that's Phil and Shana from Prague." Okay. We've been praying for their church there, and then your kids feel like they know him and the missionaries when they get to hear, you know, a little seven year old's been praying for them, It's a way of loving them, it's connecting your child to the bigger picture, and it's helping them actually look to God like that, that we're a family on mission. It's wherever we live, we're family on mission. And we had the practice, which came from my husband's family, which actually is kind of they do it

often in the Netherlands, Christian families, after they're done eating the meal, you don't get up and leave the table until you've read Scripture, which is living bread. Every all of their food is dead food that you have to keep in your fridge. But when you open up the Word that is living bread, living food. So we never left the table until we read Scripture, which sounds really holier than thou, but it was messy. There were kids that were all over the place, but it was our regular practice that is always what we did. But to

keep the the newsletters from missionaries in the Bible, so when we were done reading Scripture to to read those, we can actually David remember this really old what we called the Bible box. So all the kids had their little small Bibles and we were done reading. We'd open up the Bible box that we kept right there at the bench beside the table. They take out all their little Bibles we would read, and then we would read, And they weren't very old. And that was a very dog eared book by the time we were done, we

read "Radical" together as a family. So I really do think, like reading Scripture, reading biographies of missionaries around the world to see the sacrifices that people have made because Christ is so worthy, and then as they got older, they all read "Something's Got to Change" on their own. Pass that book around, kid to kid, and had those discussions. So I think being readers, and so it's not about getting on a plane necessarily and going somewhere else. And we have, we the nations we live in, We live in a world where the nations has come to

us in so many ways. So what does proximity look like to people in your own community that come from somewhere else, that look different than you? And if they're not projects, what are your friendships actually look like? If we really care about the nations over there, the nations are living around us right here. For us as a family, that meant we brought home to families, refugee families and lived in community with them over the course of two years. And it's so beautiful to sit at table with people from all over the world, and we get

to share Jesus with these people. So I think you're right. It doesn't look like getting on a plane. But what is it, what are your regular practices look like? That you care about the world, whether it's Joshua Project or Operation World, like it's praying for those people around the world. I love what you said because, especially, I want to highlight the missionary biographies because we do have the chance to set our kids heroes. And like, there can be a real negative about heroes and look, I know we're all fallen people, but like there is Hebrews

11. Yeah, the hall of faith. And so we can say, hey, these people made a difference in the world, and our world is going to put heroes before our kids and they're going to say, "Emulate this person because they look really cute on stage or whatever." You know, they're going to they're going to put them. So you get you before the world gets to them, put some heroes in front of them. And there are now so many more good children's books and picture books about people like Amy Carmichael and just things like that, that you

can set before them and say like, let your kids get to know these people because that's going to start them thinking, oh, what do I want to become? Who do I want to be? And it's just this picture of, hey, these are people that did amazing things for God. No one's perfect, but they honored God with their lives. Let's let's do that together. I wanted to buy all of the children books on missionaries in the bookstore. I don't have kids and I wanted all of them. But there is one that's actually in there that I

remember you guys giving to us. It was the ten women who changed the world. It was those little books that would go through so many different missionary women, and I remember reading that and thinking, I want, I want to be a missionary after reading books like that. And something that I love, that kind of both of you guys touched on is that I think that kids are never too young to start recognizing and seeing the state of the world without Jesus, the need for people to go to the nations. I think you guys would say,

you remember when I was first in kindergarten that hit home for me. I, I my school did missions week, and we talked through all these different Hindu groups, Buddhist groups, tribal, Hindu, unreached, Muslim, Buddhist. We still remember it. But I came home and told my parents, I want to be a missionary after that week. And I was in kindergarten, and it was the first time I think I'd really realized, oh, we've talked about Jesus in our home for all these years, but there are actually people that do not know Jesus. And I think even just

as an encouragement, it was amazing From such a young age to be made aware of the need, and not in this way of burden, but in this way of Jesus is calling us to go to these people. And then it led to some pretty weird things. I would go get Bibles to all the neighborhood kids and embarrass my parents, so be prepared for that. Can we tell the repent story? Okay, so you know how there's, we lived in a cul de sac, and I come home one day and we have sidewalk chalk like everyone has.

And Emma is in the cul de sac, and she has written Something in the cul de sac. Really big letters. And I go out and I'm like, oh, what's she written, and written in these beautiful kids letters is the word repent. It is the first word of the gospel. It is. So good. I was like they need to hear this. And we were like, oh, okay. Oh wow, this was rough. And then, and then even this neighbor, we have this neighbor He was he was living an interesting lifestyle, anyway. And he, he, I mean, yeah.

Anyway, he worked for a radio station. He was very into worldly things. Let me just put it that way. And he had the son, and Emma had given him a Bible and I was just like trying a little bit, like, sweaty about it and a little bit embarrassed. And he came up to me, goes, I just want you to know there are a lot worse things that your daughter could be giving my son than a Bible. I was like, thanks for assuring me. I'm the worst evangelist in the world. Oh, it's good. Man, I love

that on so many levels. Emma and Melisa like and that it was in a cul de sac, like, turn around, repent. Going the wrong way. It's just so metaphorical. Yeah, but I just want to, like, connect some dots just to make sure as I'm listening to this, just to make sure, like, one, I mean, they're all talking, they're talking about worldview shaping from the moment, yeah, a child is in your home. Or again, think church wise too, just I mean, I think about this all the time as a pastor, it's one thing to talk with

somebody who is 20, 30, 40, 50 about God's heart for the nations and what it means to live for the spread of the gospel in the world. It's like you're it's all new. When you're starting that at 3, 4, 5, 6 years old, that changes everything. So we shouldn't just start talking about mission when somebody can jump on a plane to go or do this or that, give, but start early worldview shaping that the nations would be a part of your prayer life and your home. That the nations Would be a part of the conversations

you're having, and even to Ann's point, the nations where you live that you're really intentional about. Hey, we love all types of people. Let's pray for all types of people and who come from all types of different backgrounds or have different needs that are right around us. And that's part of what I love about the repent story is that talking about the nations and the dream to be a missionaries as a kindergartner led to passing out Bibles in a neighborhood. Like it's a both and we never, we don't have to choose either. Either I care

about my neighbors or I care about the nations like the spirit in me cares about my neighbors, and the spirit in me cares about the nations. And so to raise children and to pour into teenagers to say our students in the church, to say, hey, we care about people in our school and our neighborhoods, and we care about the nations both in. Yeah, yeah, I think I sometimes I got caught up in that dichotomy, David, where I'm like, oh, I care about those people over. We're doing so like the wealth here, the access to the

gospel here is so different. I care about the people who haven't had access to the gospel, but to really think globally and locally, so now it's always like, I'm going to go glocal. So it's global and local at the same time. It's, it's repent in the neighborhood, but also for the nations too. Glocal, glocal. Melissa, are there any other things? I mean, we've talked about things you've totally forgotten that you did. Is there anything else you remember doing at any point in your parenting that would be, helpful, just on a practical level, when it comes

to either loving a great God, accomplishing a Great Commission? I will say this, I, I can remember, when I was pregnant with Emma, and, you know, it's this first child, and I can remember what I was so assured of was that salvation is by grace alone through faith, not through perfect parenting. And so, I understood with this baby in my womb, I could do nothing to save her. And it was terrifying. I think and so just know and I say that even to for parents who are in here, maybe their kids aren't walking with the

Lord. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. It's not because of perfect parenting. Yes, we have a responsibility to think about our parenting. I'm not saying that, but I just want to say, I understood. And so I remember just praying. Praying that the Lord would save this child. And so that's something we start, but also praying, and I remember opening my hands and saying, "Lord, just please save her. Please save all my kids." I said this with every, every one of them. Andthey are yours. They're yours. But we you know, and just being willing

to send. So I think a posture in our heart, a prayerful posture, that this life is just a journey. This is not my home. This is not my kingdom. This is not where everything will be. And I can remember really in my heart of hearts, will we settle it as moms in our heart of hearts That Lord, you can take them wherever you want them to go and you can do with them whatever you will do. And just begging, but please just give us eternity together, because that's when we're home. I just desperately wanted to

be home with my kids for eternity. But on this life, can I just say you can do it every you will with them. And just that can we can we just go before the Lord in prayer and say, not my will, but your will be done with our kids? Because because we as parents, you know, we, we either can go ourselves, but we can always be sending And we can be praying that they would be sent to the nations. So I would just say a heart posture of prayer. It's good. I, I've shared before as

I've spent time on college campuses. It's fairly common to talk with a college student from a Christian home who's biggest obstacle to potentially going to the nations is actually their mom or dad. And, holding on to that, or even just like, you've got this education. Just get a job here with this. So, yeah, I think that's a really good word to trust the Lord With our kids lives. So along those lines, like trust in the Lord with our kids lives, like, what are some of the greatest obstacles that you see today in raising children with

hope for them and the world? What are the biggest challenges, and how do we think about overcoming them? Well I I just to your point, David, and to yours, Melissa, how have we held onto our children? That is in lots of ways a great obstacle because I think we've poured into them. We want relationship with them. We love them. I went to Iraq just like three weeks after the 21 Christian Egyptians were martyred in Libya by ISIS. And I was really scared to go. And it was my husband, Darrell, who said, "Ann, you are safer

in the will of the Lord in Iraq than you would be at home on the farm out of the will of the Lord." And before I left, I think our oldest, Caleb at the time was maybe 16. And he stood at the door, and he put his hand on my shoulder. He said, "Mom, just keep your head in your shoulders, okay?" But for I think it's about us parents really modeling, we are meant to go to that. We are meant to risk our lives. We are meant to lay down our lives. We are meant to

step out of our comfort zones. I think the greatest obstacle is that the comfort that we have here in North America that that becomes an idol that we become really lazy and sloppy in. And we talk about going to the nations, but we don't really know there's a cost in going, but really it is a great joy to be in the will of the Lord wherever that is. So, when we were talking backstage that you want to raise up children To go to the nations, which means releasing them. And yes, we're sad about it, like

Shalom talks about, "I know, mom, you would love for me to be live close, but you actually did this. You actually put this love of the world in me that I am praying, Lord, where do you want me to go?" And that to be part of their prayer life from the time they are little that I am not assuming that you are going to live in close proximity to me, but you are going to live in close proximity to Jesus Himself, who is going to call you anywhere in the world he wants to call you.

Yeah, it's just so not safe. It's so not safe. She was in India in November. What was it, November? Yeah. And she's like, "Well, you know, I'll tell you more about it when I get home." And she's riding these rickshaws, and she's like going to the red light district where the rickshaw driver is saying, "You ladies do not go down there. You ladies do not go down there." And that's where they're headed. They're like, "We just let him go away. And then we, we went down the street we were supposed to go to." And I'm

like, okay, she's totally safe. She's totally safe. She's in Jesus. Yeah, whatever. I mean, she's anyway, but it is, it's risky. It's risky. But it's supposed To be like it's supposed to be. And as parents, we're trying to keep them safe. But the gospel is dangerous because it transforms us. And so, like, we want our children in the Spirit to step into those things. And I think that, again, is another thing I just feel really grateful for in our home that, I feel like you guys did a really good job of saying to us like,

again, not these set of rules to follow, but kind of you are each individual children. So me and my sister are so different. We don't even look alike. And people are always shocked we're sisters. She's musically gifted. I am not, all these things. And they really, I think, did a really good job of pressing into those things with us when it comes to being missional. So even for me as a nurse for a long time, I was like, what am I going to do as a nurse? I can not do this job. And I remember

my parents kind of looking at me and saying, "Emma, think about what you can do with this job for the glory of God." And I think that it was just really beautiful that you guys, your thought wasn't, Emma, become the greatest nurse, Move up the ranks in the marketplace like it was how can we steward the ways that God has made each of you to then be missional in the ways that God has created you? So with my sister, that could be with music, with my brother, he's in engineering. Who knows what he'll do, you

know, like. Yeah, John went to Malaysia last summer. It was Malaysia, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He went to Malaysia last summer on a mission trip, and he came back, and one we were shocked. He went I mean he's kind of like, "I like North Carolina. Why would anyone leave?" And so, yeah exactly. It's got the beach. It's got the mountains. It's a great state. Move there. Don't move there, actually. Don't move there, too people are moving there. But he goes to Malaysia, and when he gets back I'm like, "Well, how was it?" You know, like,

you know, it's like, wow, maybe the Lord's going to send him out. And he was like, "Oh yeah, I'm totally not going to be a missionary." He's like, no way, no way. But we talked about it going gave him a better, better eyes for what what it cost and what it requires. And he will always be a better sender because he has been. And so there's something to remember of some will stay, but he understands now what it's costing a missionary to go. And I know, I mean like he the, you know, it's like Eric

Liddel, right? He said, "I was made to run. My son was made to build rockets." It's like that's what he's all into is building rocket fuel, blowing things up. But he can still have a heart for the nations. And he can still send, and so it's giving them these, this vision, and they can still see it, whatever they're called to. So it's not this pressure cooker of, you know, if you're not being a missionary, you're not like, you know, living in God's will. It's just saying, whatever God's called you to do, how will you steward

that to point people to Jesus? I love that. Again, just like connecting dots. Just making sure that we're catching some of what I believe is the Spirit helping us. Going all the way back to one of the first things Emma said, so much of what she has received in her home was caught rather than taught. So do your children or do the does the next generation in your church see in you a zeal for the spread of God's glory among the nations, and a willingness to give sacrificially toward that end, to spend time in prayer

toward that end, to potentially go to Iraq or wherever, the Lord may lead? I mean that what a testimony to kids to see their mom say it's worth it to follow Jesus into a hard place. Yeah, that's, that you're going to catch something in that practice. A lot, I, I received texts afterwards, very close friends that I had known for decades who were furious with me for going there. As a mom, you should never do that because what does that saying to your kids? That you could lose your life? And that's not being a good

mom. Whereas Darrell thought the exact opposite. We are saying that our lives are of no value at all in terms of what Is Jesus gospel mission actually? We're already dead. We are alive in Christ. So give our lives for the gospel. So you're going to get pushback on that. But really is it showing kids Jesus is so worthy of everything. That's that just wow, what that etches into what an amen. Oh yes. Yeah. It's. Yes. It's so good. Yeah. If you're, if our kids see us living a nice, comfortable Christian spin on the American dream,

Then really no matter what we say, they're going to kind of grow up with that's what it means to follow Jesus. Instead of if our kids, next generation, seeing us as zeal for God and zeal for the spread of his glory among the nations. I just, obviously it's not programed. They'll automatically catch that. But we're praying that they would catch that as they see that in us. And then I love what you're saying about John, your son, just shepherding each of their hearts. That's the beauty. I mean, I look around this room, every single one

of us has a unique part to play in this global mission God has given us. And every one of our kids has a unique part to play. And so not, to try to force, a particular picture of what that looks like, but to help them think through how to do nursing for the glory of God, how to do engineering for the glory of God, and to always be open to how that might, the Lord might use your gifts for the spread of his glory in the world, and to shepherd them uniquely toward that end. What

else comes to your mind when it comes to like different stages of life with kids? Like we've talked about, Kindergarten Emma. What about high school Emma or middle school Emma? Or just, weah, as you all think about different ages and stages of life with your with kids and what have you found helpful or challenging? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's going to it does look different at different ages and stages, but what, the seeds you start to plant when they're little, you start to see some of that fruit in God's grace and kindness. And we had

several sons as teenagers who would drive the two hours into Toronto. It's just one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world and actually just share the gospel on street corners and have conversations and talk. You think, wow, I grew up in an unbelieving home and got saved through Good News Bible Club. And your kids can go and share the gospel on the street, and not to be ashamed of the gospel in any way. So I think the verses that they're memorizing as little kids, the songs that you're singing, that really how are we stirring

our kids hearts affection for Jesus long term. And they catch that from us every day. Yeah. And, and on that one thing and you said this I think early on too, Even how we approach God's Word. You know, there can be and even family devotions and all of these things, like, I would just say, it can be so tempting to be fearful of the wrong things as parents and, and, you know, so we can be, like, fearful in a controlling way and like, oh, you're looking at them again, this is a problem of being too

focused on your kids. Of course, we all love our kids. But if you're like, so fearful and like, hold on, you didn't want to come to devotions this morning. Oh my goodness, this probably means you're not a Christian. Yeah. Remember, like, sometimes I don't want to come to devotions. Come on, y'all. I mean, like, just being sympathetic that like, hey, it's a journey. It's a long journey with these kids, and we can be so fearful at one little window if they start having doubts or they start wondering things or, yeah, they start getting a little

bored with church or whatever and just saying, yeah, sometimes I'm bored at church too. I mean, yeah, that or and willing to admit that was not a good sermon. I was not that was just not very good. And you just have this. Especially when you're the one who preached it just to be like, yeah, it was not. I'd have been bored if I were you to, yes. And you know, so just, you know, we go through don't be afraid to be fully, you know, I mean, the word gets over used, authentic in front of your

kids about your own faith journey, Yeah, I mean, you can have doubts. You can have questions. I think one of the best gifts my husband sometimes gives our kids, I mean, he's a New Testament scholar, and they are very unimpressed with his biblical understanding sometimes because he will say to them on a regular basis, "Huh, that's a really good question. I'm not sure I know the answer." Yeah, yeah. I mean, and so just know you can say, "I don't know. That's a really good question. Let's search together. Let's try to find it out." Like what

you're saying right there is the ground at the foot of the cross is all equal. And you are coming and saying, "Oh wow, I'm struggling too, And Jesus is holding on to me. I don't know. And I'm leaning in with you." like you really are saying, "We are both pilgrims on the way of Jesus together." You are an example, but you are not the example. Exactly. You know what? We cannot save our children or be a savior to our children. We are called to be like the Savior to our children. Write that down too. That's

good. So helpful. Man, I just there's so many things here. One thing that this it's all coming, coming back to also to, when we ask the question about obstacles and the whole conversation went to, obstacles in our own hearts. Like we can easily point to social media or this or that in the world, like if all those things weren't the like, but what we're talking about is like, it starts here. Like there's there's a lot of things we can't control in the world. And obviously, we want to be wise and helping create boundaries. And, I'll

tell a real quick story. We have like, stuff on our devices at home to keep bad stuff out. And we had put some, one of these programs on a laptop, and it messed up the whole computer. So we took it to the Geek Squad at Best Buy, and they were fixing it, and I'm picking it up, and this 20 year old kid, he's like, "We recommend not putting that kind of software on computers." And I'm like, "Well, I'm mean, I have six kids. I'm just trying to protect them from some things." They're like, "Well, we

would recommend you still not put it out." I said, "Well, what would you recommend I do?" He said, "Well, we would recommend you teach them to make wise decisions." For I was like, "Well, thank you." Man, what would I have done in my parenting without that piece of gold that you just gave me? I'll just go home, and tell Heather, "Wise decisions. That's what we're after." So anyway, what was I, Why was I even talking about that? I lost my whole train of thought. You were pointing out you were, you were talking about a good

thing. You were talking about the idolatry in our own heart. Yes, yes. And I would like to say that I mean one thing, one thing I talk about in "Parenting With Hope" is actually the whole second section is the battle. And I think we think the battle with our kids is outside influences: sex, drugs, rock and roll to use the, yeah, there's those are like old news now I guess, you know or whatever. But like, they're still all around. Yeah, Yeah, but but that used to be these fears, these outside influences. And I think something

we have to reckon with is our idolatry about certain good things are more dangerous sometimes. And, and I think we have to really look at our hearts and think about scholarship, success, social success, like, exactly. Those are all of those things that actually become the obstacles, the barriers, go ahead. Yes. And they're good things. And sports like these are the things. Okay. Do that again. Yes. Yeah. That's, we need that again. Write that down. Yeah. Right. The 4 S's. They are scholarship, social success, like their social acceptability, and then sports and activities as well. I

would say these things. And so we look those are good healthy things, right? Like we want our kids to play sports well. Our kids do well in school, but good things can often be idols. And we become so focused on getting our kids to every activity, you know? And so, that's a discipleship issue. What you're spending your time on is actually a discipleship issue, you know? And so when you're running to all these things, yeah. What's the heart motivation? Like really it's my own idol that my kid looks good because it reflects on me. Is

that the route under the the scholarship, the success, the sports? Look at my kid has become my idol on my mantle here. We're, we are y'all, we live in a society of curated children. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. And so this is this is my curated child We want to call well-rounded, but it's curated, and they are dying under the pressure. Oh. Yeah. We want to talk about anxiety. We want to talk about all these things. We are curating them. And so they live their whole lives thinking I'm not enough rather than, you know, I talked

about this yesterday looking at your child and saying this gift. And I'm sitting here with this gift, and it's been unwrapped before me as God makes them who he created them to be. And I get to enjoy and be part of the ride. Okay, that's our goal. But when we're, you know, when everything is about what we want to make them to be. It's different than when I want to give them opportunities, to help them do these things. That's fine. I'm not I'm not against any of those. My kids all played sports. I cared about

their school. But it's our obsession with it. And I think that idolatry in our own hearts is a place of battle for us in all of our parenting. Because really, what we're obsessed with is the optics of what we look like, as opposed To being, do people see Jesus in us? Are we, what are we really about? What do we want to be seen as? And to make the connection the caught rather than thought. We are passing on idolatry from one generation to the next. We're teaching them to value those things, to we wouldn't say

it, but to look to those things for their significance because they're spending so much time, energy on those things. It's our time, our money, and then I always say, "What do you think about when you're not thinking?" It's kind of like, what's your little dream factory for your kid, you know? And those are all the things that are really, really pushing. And it's I think too, you already have a world that is throwing all of those things at kids. So when they go to college, it's can you be the best student? Can you be the

most successful? Can you have the most friends? We do have social media. We have all of these things now that are already throwing that at kids to put pressure on them and to make them into something the world wants them to be. And so, I think then when the home is the place where that is different, and where there is no pressure to perform like I, it could make me cry thinking about how restful home has always been for me. And I think that the reason for that is they looked at me and my siblings

and said, "We love who Jesus is making you to be, and we want to be a part of that more than we want you to be successful and more than we want." And it's so freeing as a kid. It is so freeing to not be shoved into these fears for for the ways of the world When the world is already throwing all of that at you. So. I just think as parents, our real work is not to take credit for our children or to take any condemnation for our children, but to keep taking our children

to Christ full stop. Okay, so along those lines, one, I just I want to pause and praise God for his grace and the picture of the two of you. It's just, it's beautiful. Like, I, we were, yeah, we were talking in the back, like, Anne and I were like, well, We would love to be up here with any one of our kids talking about loving a great God and accomplishing a Great Commission. Like what parent would not? Like, yes. So praise God for his grace that has made that better reality. We've talked about at different

points in this conversation how that you can't guarantee, that you can do all the means of grace, and be wise in parenting and all kinds of different ways, obviously, none of us are perfect, but, a child may not, and particularly I love what you said, Melissa, about, patience with seasons. Heather and I were having that conversation this week with one particular issue with one child, and our minds immediately went to, they're going to be like this for life. And we got to fix this now, and it's like, wait a minute, let's just like, get to

tomorrow. Like, we don't have to solve life right now, just today. So the patience in that and so knowing there are different seasons. So I'm sure that around this room there are many, yeah, around this room who have children or people in the next generation they love deeply Who are not walking with the Lord. You know, what encouragement would you give to, anybody in those shoes? I guess I take great comfort in the Lord himself, our Heavenly Father, knows what it's like to have prodigal children. And he's a perfect father. And we've been imperfect parents.

So you have a safe place to take all of those tears to. And I think we've mentioned it several times. Our parenting can't come from a place of fear or panic. God is working on long timelines. He's on the throne. He's not panicking at all. I spoke to a woman yesterday, and she shared a bit about a story of her son who he was an addict for several years, and her heart was broken. He is now saved walking with the Lord, but working in a facility that is helping addicts. You don't know why God has

them on the journey. I mean, look at all of us out of the most deeply, deeply painful parts of our stories that's where God is using us in ministry to comfort other people with the comfort we've received from himself, So we can look at our children saying, why is this happening? Well, wait, God, who is the Word, the author of the story. So the author has all authority. He is writing a good story for our children, and I mean, I can I can relate to the panic of wait, what? And as my husband always says,

"No, no, we, our job, our job is not to be so fixated on outcomes of our children, but our job is to keep coming to Jesus with our children and allow God, who is the good Shepherd, who is watching over our children when we are in bed wide awake, praying for our children, wondering where they're at, knowing that God's eye is on them and the good Shepherd leaves the 99 for the one. He is constantly pursuing them and coming after them." So in a bent and broken world, we need to be focused on where is

my bend towards? My bent is always supposed to be towards the cross of Jesus and living in a cruciform life that is showing the outreach to God and to the people around me. And trusting that the Holy Spirit is doing a good work. Yeah, and I would just say with all of our kids, I don't think you ever feel safe. And this is, this is what I mean. Like, we've all walked with with the Lord long enough to we see people, we've, Mike and I've had friends who I mean we did ministry With for years

who just leave the faith one day, and, you know, so, one thing we all know, like, I know we're on a journey, and I'm so thankful like Emma's walking with the Lord today and, yeah, I'm going into a theological discourse about, like, certain things. I'm just saying, but we've always, you see people. So I am, as a parent, always praying for my kids. Yeah. I mean, I feel like we're safe when we're all in heaven together, and we're all rejoicing around the throne of God. Yeah. And there's no arriving. Yes, God is the goal. Yes.

So, it's not a place we're trying to arrive at that where kids cross some finish line till we get home to Jesus. We're just leaning on him all the way. Yes and yes. So, you know, there's just this always this, you know, we're just prayerful parents, but I do think, so wherever your child is in the journey, be praying for them. Be praying that they know, that they would be whole as they would believe. I mean, I think that's the prayer, right? That they would repent and turn to Christ. That's not a prayer of when

they just come to Christ. That's a prayer when they've been walking with Jesus for 20 years, that they'd repent and come to Christ, that they'd repent and come to Christ. And so, I think our prayer life doesn't change. You know, wherever they are in the journey, that's what we are. But what I will say to a parent whose child is just walking in complete rebellion, the Lord, you know, when we are fearful time and time in Scripture, do not fear, do not fear, do not fear. The answer is not, "I'm going to make everything okay."

The answer is "I am with you." So when you're walking in that you're not alone, the Lord is with you, and that is part of your journey of faith. That is part of what God is asking you to hold right now. And that is painful, and that is suffering, and that is hard. And he is with you. He is with you. Yeah, it's sanctifying. That's, it's part of your sanctification. So your child story is not something for you to figure out and solve. It is something for you to walk with the Lord through. And that

is something he's asking you to entrust to him. And you pray, and you walk through it, but you walk through it with God, and you don't try to solve it. It's not yours to solve. Their faith journey is God calls people to himself. God saves people. And we keep holding out the message of hope to them. And I think it's walking alongside a prodigal child saying, "I'm going to, I'm going to be to you what Jesus has been to me," which God gives us witness and God gives us witness. I am the God who sees

you. So as we lean in with which I am with you in this, I see you in this, as God doesn't abandon me In the midst of all of my prodigal wanders. I'm not abandoning you either. I'm not here to be the Holy Spirit to you either. But I am going to pray that the Lord keeps speaking to you and just to keep praying, "Lord cause my child's heart to miss you most," and let the Holy Spirit keep doing that work. And how can I be, when they see me and experience me they see Jesus

and experience the fragrance of Christ. TAnd that's a sanctifying process. Lord, you have to make me more like you, that you are doing this work. I am not here to be your savior, but to be like the Savior to them. I don't know where Seth is. Are we recording this? I really hope I'm like, so mad that I'm moderating this conversation because I want to be writing down everything I'm hearing. So I really hope we're recording this. Like, thank you guys. You're, so we're we are getting close to time, and I want us to pray

not just to kind of formally close out this time, but to really just make no sense for us to talk about this and not, like, really pray. So I want us to pray. Before that, I want to ask each of you just to one word of encouragement That comes to your mind or your heart on anything, yeah, anything we've not talked about or even adding to something we haven't talked about, but just think through what is one word of encouragement you have to give to the sisters in this room. I think, what comes to mind

in seeing everyone here is, I don't know if any of you guys have read it. It's called "A Chance to Die." It's by Elisabeth Elliott, but it's written on Amy Carmichael's life. And, there is a part in the book. It's one of my favorite quotes. It's on the wall in my room and she is writing. We were talking about this before, when missionaries would leave, there's this question of will I see these people I love ever again? Nowadays, we can fly, we can FaceTime. But she is leaving to move to India, and she has a

father figure in her life, who has been a mentor, a friend, like a father to her. And she writes to him, and she says, "May God strengthen you to say yes to him, even if he asks something which costs." And she was saying that to him and him sending her out. And so I think that is true whether you are a parent sending out your children or if you are the child or the adult being sent, Whether it's to the nations or a city or a church. I think the prayer in leaving today would be

as we behold and believe Jesus, would he strengthen us to say yes to him no matter what it is? Will we say yes for our children to go? Will we say yes for what that looks like in our own hearts? So. When you were talking, I was thinking of a different missionary I heard speak one time. It was Helen Roseveare, and she came and spoke, and she was a doctor, and she was serving, and I can't remember where she was serving, But at one point, wherever she was, was attacked, and she was, the thing that

she kept saying, she would say, "Is this worth it?" You know, which is building this hospital, she's doing this, is this worth it? Yes, it's worth it. When she was being attacked, and she was attacked terrifically herself, and she heard the question, is it worth it? And she said, I can't answer it's worth it right now. But she said a different question, the Spirit brought a different question to mind. He said, "Is he worthy?" And she said, "I can always say, yes, he's worthy." And so, I think when we do this, we can always say

he's worthy. He's worthy. Not sure there's much more to say after that. My, I think just before we go to prayer, we just always prayed for the kids. Lord, make us dead to all ladders because it's to go lower to the least in the lonely and lost. I think so much of the obstacle is we are trying to strive to go up some ladders, as opposed to we are going lower, and that we would pray that all of the trials in our life, they would be but stones on a trail that take us closer to

Jesus' heart. And that was just always our our pray that the things that look like obstacles, now, the thing that's in the way Is actually making the way to draw you closer to Jesus, who is the way himself. All right, so I want us to go to Jesus himself. And I know, I want to make sure you got plenty of time to get to the, first session, but can we just get in groups of two, three, four, kind of turn to a couple of people around you, whether you know them or not. If you don't

know them, just introduce yourself quick. But then, here's what I would invite you to do, if you feel led to do something different, that's totally fine. But just to, Kind of conversationally pray just a sentence at a time, each of you, and just kind of as different things come to your mind, just one at a time, just pray a sentence based on things we've heard, how you've processed that, even for specific children or just follow the leadership of the Spirit, obviously. But just different ones pray, and just kind of go back and forth for a

few minutes, and then I'm going to actually ask after a couple of minutes, and you can keep going, but I'm going to ask these sisters to do the same up here with microphone and just sentences here and there. And, just for us to pray for you, after you've had some time to pray together. So, All right. Go for it. Just spend a couple of minutes, and then that will lead us to prayer. Does that make sense guys? So, in just a minute. Father, we thank you for this time together. Lord, may we behold your glory.

And may we believe. And may we pass it on to the next generation. God the Father, we know that you are a jealous God not to be trifled with. That you long for all of our affections, All of our attention, all of the urgency in our hearts, Lord. So please, Lord, stir our heart's affections for you, so that when we go home to our families, they see how you have our whole hearts and that that might ignite something in them through your Spirit. We pray this in Jesus name, the only one who's ever loved us

to death and back to the realest life. Amen. Jesus, we thank you. We thank you for rescuing each of us. Thank you for saving the women in this room. Thank you that we get to come to this place where we get to behold you, Jesus. I pray for each of the women here. Would we all be people that are willing to say yes to you? That you are worth it. You are worthy of it. And I just pray that we would go home from this conference living lives of just beholding your glory and walking in

a manner worthy of it. Jesus, we thank you for How you led this, started this conversation to focus on you as our hope. And we just say at the end of this time, we're so glad you're our hope. You are our hope. You are our strength. You are our peace. You are our life. We need you. We want you, and we trust you, trust you with our lives, Families, churches, children. We pray that you would help us to daily hold fast to hope in you. I pray for the women in this room. I pray for

deep rest in you. And your love for them, and in your love for kids that you've put on our hearts and you put in our lives. Rest in your love for them. And we pray that by your power, Colossians 1:29, your energy's Powerfully working within us. You help us to hope in you and pass on hope in you to the next generation and to the nations who have not heard the good news of your love for them. We pray all this together in Jesus name, and all God's people said amen.