Dudjom Rinpoche. Talk about Dzogchen. Guru Padmasambhava. Bardo. New York, 1976.

[music] [bell] [music] This is Lex and um we have have a very very special visitor in the studio with us this morning. his holiness Dujam Rimpache and u I think it's a unique thing on on the 200th birthday of the of the country very small young country that we would have the representative of the most ancient lineage of Tibetan Buddhism appearing live and directly uh speaking we uh hope about the highest teachings of mind and um his holiness is wants to say a few words in greeting and then I'm going to be asking him some questions. for here in the New York City of United States of America where at the insistence and the request of few of my disciples along with many other interested followers.

Yes. American And these followers are not only followers of Dharma but particularly in the line of Guru Padma Sambawa, the great tandric teacher And those who particularly adear to his path and teaching have uh requested me to come here. And it is very auspicious that this coincides with the 200 anniversary of the the founding of the America's uh birth of the country that uh I am very happy to be here to meet you in talking you to you like this.

for connected with that I have been able to uh talk a little bit about the dharma. Give them a little bit information about dharma as hearing is such an important thing in the meditation. The the noble quality of hearing.

And because of interest and initiated by that uh many followers took refuge and also started it with the practice of Mundo. And also uh there have been many who received initiation of guruatma sambawa and vajra satwa or doja sampaa representing all tantric deities. And as these initiations were given, the meaning and the symbolic symbolism that is connected with them are sort of taught and explained to them and I felt that uh it did have some uh sort of profound effect.

I I'd like to say that I was fortunate enough to take the initiation in Guru Padma Simbab and um it was it was very remarkable. His holiness gave a series of three public talks at the Community Church of New York and where he appeared um in a in a very plain Tibetan uh jacket and uh with his hair very tightly pulled back and he he looked perhaps a little bit like uh Dr Suzuki uh giving lectures on Zen at Colombia. And then when we went into the place where the meditation was held, which was a which was in a gallery in Midtown, it was very small uh room, very clear, clean room.

Uh he looked completely different to me. He was uh his his his his hair looked looked like kind of was like uh flowing in all directions and he had a he had a a beautiful white uh robe or or cloth wrapped around with this with a red border red bouquet border and it was a very remarkable experience. And how many people do you suppose were there?

I think there were about um 200 people. 200 people. I I want to thank his holiness right now for for [clears throat] having offered that.

I think one thing had to be said about the meetings at the community church hall was that his holiness first spoke on the general background of Buddhism bringing the followers gradually then he spoke about the essence of the ningma teachings and sort of secret and special teachings and then finally on the last day he spoke on meditation because it's very important for people to have a grounding. Can you thank this holiness now for for me for for the initiation of Padma and Baba in in the microphone? I'm very happy to find that there is a tremendous interest here in America and receptivity for spiritual teachings generally and not a uh just a mere interest but a genuine interest generated.

I'm particularly happy to find that and uh furthermore that there is a special link felt by many to Guru Patma Sambawa this great teacher who brought Tantri Buddhism to Tibet and made available to all. uh because guruatma sambawa is one who is specially apt in bringing or subjugating or almost calming us down in this turbulent or remedying in this speedy sort of turbulent period that we are passing through. And so as I am one in the line of guruatma sambhaba uh I feel especially happy to see this is happening because it's a right kind of thing.

In the case of of a figure like guru padma samba is that just a projection of one's mind and meditation or is is is he a real living figure that exists as much as we do? do guru samba is one with the dharmakaya or the primordial Buddha in essence and that therefore uh he is the essence of all Buddhas but He manifested in this world of ours out of compassion in order to help sentient beings. And for this purpose, the Buddha Amitaba, the Buddha of limitless light, who especially for this world of ours, because this Buddha is the one that transmutes our desire.

Desire being the root of all our problem in this world of ours. Um the guru samba is his soul incarnation that the essence of this Buddha Amitaba manifested symbolically in the dhana kosha in the letter C which is the symbolic of the seat letter or the mantra of the Buddha Amitaba and u out of that as the seat came out miraculously uh was born gurupatma samba out of Lutus as he's known as the Lutusborn Guru. The some some people imply that the chosen deity or the Yiddam is just a a projection of the mind that that that it's an illusory uh body just as our body is an illusory body.

But somehow it seems that Guru Padma Simbab is is more permanent than that more more real. So much that for this world of ours uh it will be difficult for us human beings to appreciate guruatma samba if it does not manifest in this human form the incarnate. That's why um as the embodiment of all Buddhas particularly of Buddha Amitaba he came down here in human form is an example but the essence or the um of gurupatma samba is without any limit or without any limit of lives or spheres or time.

He said that I have come here uh as the instrument or the the soul incarnation of uh Amitaba to help saint beings of all spheres. So wherever there is devotion, my presence, my blessing will always be around or nearby. There's no distance.

So one way you could say he came down to us in a physical form as an example as an incarnate but yet his wisdom form is everywhere and all the time in historically speaking he went away from us but wisdom wise or intrinsically speaking he's everywhere where there is devotion. Does his holiness feel any special presence of of Guru Padma Simbab in his own consciousness in his own awareness? It comes uh in different stages or different spheres or different ways.

Comes through the experience in a visionary form. Comes through through dreams. Wherever the devotion is most receptive, when help is most needed, there uh the presence of Gurbuche is made uh known.

Would his holiness invoke Guru Rimpache? Would he give a a brief invocation of of this deity? Generally everything can be summarized into two truths or everything exist on two levels of truths.

The relative truth and absolute truth. as we are on the relative level. Everything for us is real on this level.

In order to uh bring understanding on this relative level that guru sambawa absolute manifested as a reality in relative. But in in essence that uh all relative truth is condensed or or manifested out of our mind which is in nature void and at the same time clear and manifesting almost sparkles out. And so the understanding therefore is one the mind which is basically uh pure and uh void at the same time manifesting.

So the unity of the two must be uh seen because it's not a just an empty kind of void but a void which is always manifesting and clear. Gurui said that if you understand really truly that the true Guru Patma Sambhawa is is in the heart of everyone in the depth of understanding of this intrinsic nature which itself is manifesting and also uh for the sake of us on the relative level who see the manifestation part of it that he came down in this manifestation. So as long as we we have the mind we don't really have to invoke group or it's really equivalent to That's right.

So at the moment though the intrinsic nature of the mind is void and And manifesting problem with us is we do not recognize for the mind for what it is. But we hang on to or we follow we grasp after the manifestation almost the sparkle of this true mind and as a result we have all the problems. As a result, we also have uh the guruatma samba as someone external to whom we pray, us as devotey who pray and also a method of prayer and so forth.

But if we truly realize that that all this is but a mere manifestation of the intrinsic mind then gurupatma sambawa becomes one with our mind when this nature is truly realized. Can one begin right away from the non-dual position of regarding mind and as as pure even though one still has obscurations. Yeah.

At the moment we still have grasping. We still have problem with this manifestation. So as a result we have to tackle this first.

In order to tackle that there is skillfully gurum or compassionately gurum has manifested externally and through the prayer the following and devotion that with his presence almost externally that our defilement of this wrong understanding this grasping of manation manifestation may be purified and once that is removed then there is no necessity of linking because the intrinsic mind when realized that is guru is the intrinsic mind at rest or at play or both or neither foreignch. At the moment, yes, it is a play routine that stillness of the mind and the change or the play the interplay of the two between that we live and we exist. We think and uh so when we watch the mind and we watch the change and try to understand them, we may gain a certain amount of understanding.

But for that understanding or for the uh for it to maintain or for it to for us to sustain that require a long and arduous almost uh effortless effort to keep that state of mind for which we have to work. In certain texts it it indicates that the ordinary mind I think maybe tala uh the ordinary mind without anything added or subtracted is the is that perfect pure mind. Uh yes, in the zoka chamber treatment of this that the tama or the the the natural mind without any artificiality that almost uh naked the fresh mind itself is the mind.

But the problem is for us to realize that and to maintain in that state is almost impossible because the change becomes so violent like the strong waves of the ocean that we are overtaken. And this wave is the or this kind of turbulent wave is our grasping that we follow after these changes that makes it difficult for us to remain for any length of period. Um since his holiness experiences this natural mind, could he could he tell us what are the marks of of this natural mind?

By what characteristics do you recognize it? for you. For though our mind intrinsically is the void and or empty but yet the manifestation it has we don't see it as void or empty or as manifestation of the intrinsic mind but cling on to it and grasp after it.

Put it this way, we put our attention, our thought or concentration more on the sparkle or the manifestation of mind and we lack the uh or we do not pay attention to what we really are. We rather hang on to the the manifesting aspect manifest aspect of the mind more. That's her problem.

What are the characteristics of of the mind when it's not uh grasping? When mind is without any artificiality or without any uh tampered by any of our graspings, if let be in the state of natural selfless state and that it is clear. It is all pervading like the sky.

But then our manifestation and grasping onto it is like the cloud which obscures the sky. They say though that the the clouds don't have any intrinsic connection with the sky. So Fore!

Foreign! Foreign! Fore is [clears throat] though in intrinsically it has no base whatsoever.

Therefore, any illusion or delusion but or like holding on to this empty manifestation, clear empty manifestation almost empty-handedly. That's what our grasping is all about and that's why it's so futile. Um his holiness says that uh it tremendous manifestation manifests or sparkles and then our kind of grasping follows after it and uh that manifestation is directed onto something external and grasp and also recognize and see something which grasps it.

So therefore the dualistic uh distinctions that self the ego that grasps it and the object external that is to be grasped. So that almost the unexisting um relation between the two uh dualistics is uh illusionally created. is is the is the basic ultimate mind which is our natural mind.

Um when one perceives it is it is it flowing like a stream or is it absolutely still say like just like empty space or sky. for me. Uh, the Though intrinsically the mind is like the sky or pervading but in its manifestation our problem you know comes as his holiness has explained earlier.

That is why in order to realize the intrinsic nature of the mind that we have to respect the relative complication and that is why we have to uncomplicate this by the purification or by the practice. That is to say that first the refuge and devotion then the following of the practices which are a skillful means for removing this defilement and at the same time relating this almost the relative practice to the intrinsic mind by watching mind occasionally and kind of trying to understand it. So uh therefore the both the the both the practices must be combined that is to say uh respecting the relative aspect of the practice because it's so important because sometimes people forget uh the importance of that and try to just understand mind by sheer meditation.

That's not possible until that clouds of the defilement is removed. no intrinsic mind can be realized. So it has to be um first remove the clouds and then you can begin to look back.

But even while you're removing that cloud, we should always relate within ourselves. So not you know otherwise it become a complication itself if you just hang on to the external practice itself not seeing your intrinsic nature. So there's a relative practice and an absolute practice interrelated.

Um you say can you and both interrelated. So even someone who's a beginner uh beginning relative practice could at the same time in a humble sensible way begin absolute practice. Uh it is very important even for a beginner to understand what is the intrinsic mind.

Of course it's easier for us to understand but to maintain or to understand fully is difficult. But first there must be that understanding in the background of mind mind our minds that what really mind is and so that you can relate the even the relative practice in the light of that or see that in the light of that that makes all the difference. First of all, as a problem is grasping to the manifestation and all wrong motivations and our actions which are misdirected by these illusory or deluded uh motivation that we are plunched into the state that we are in suffering and uh complicated and this we that we call samsara or whirlpool out of existence and so in order to tackle first the relative part of our practice first and the most important thing is to turn our mind or to uh examine a self true self-examination with which truly kind of Turn mind inwardly for uh the understanding of the spiritual quality is important.

[clears throat] So the first when we the way to turn our mind towards dharma or the uh true spiritual uh path or insight is by devotion and by the help of the Buddha, Dharma and Sana. And this help we seek by knowing first of all the noble qualities of the Buddha, compassionate and also the wisdom qualities of the Buddha, Dharma and Sana. And by knowing their noble quality and knowing that they can help us that we gain trust in them and with trust we find our confidence of faith and devotion which is very important.

And with this uh as we are in this world of ours where we need so much help and where we cannot tackle or however much we want to come out of this problem we need some direction we need some help. So we seek we turn to Buddha Dharma and Sana knowing that they can help turning to them and in in receptivity in devotion we ask their help which is the true appreciation of help. One of the greatest blessings is the blessing of the llama's mind or the the guru's mind that they they evidently there's some possibility of mindto- mind teaching and contact.

Could his holiness explain that? The essence of the Buddhas is out of compassion and skillfully manifested or took form in the symbol of the llama or in the external llama as the example. And so by the help of that llama and in connection with him and through learning and through following that we develop our mind and ultimately through the help of that external symbol that we may gain insight to understand the meaning of that external lama by ultimately unifying that absolute with that absolute llama which is with our mind all the time.

G Buddha nature. Um could Rimpache say something about about his his own life how he began meditation practice as I imagine it was as a young boy and and uh some of the stages and understanding that he went through. that she is first of all that I was very fortunate to be born in a family which is spiritually kind of oriented or um has that u background.

And so I was brought up in the way of dharma and also was able to see many many great teachers and take to them and receive teachings from them in form of initiations and instruction and maya which is almost direct transference of understanding through guidance of the llama I was able to receive almost all of them I can say I've received almost all the teachings. But however, as I assume the responsibility of a llama um as a practitioner that uh one often get uh becomes very busy uh working with others and so forth. As a result, I didn't have that much time to uh follow my own practice.

Uh by the way this is important point to bear this in mind. I think in western sort of situations when everything is playing black and white you know everybody is very direct and people often talk of their own attainment but this is a different thing in eastern like great teacher like his does not boast of his attainment or sometimes even doesn't talk that he has done practice for as he's saying at the moment. So I think you should appreciate this humility which is so lacking.

generally the uh if one follows the practices properly, the meditation and practice uh [clears throat] you know faithfully and properly that the uh effects it has almost side effects it are tremendous like uh one is able to almost uh fly like a bird you know gain almost sort of spiritual wink as such and also travel to long distance in no time or uh cross over rivers easily or almost untouched and uh uh can live on the rock and the things that we normally wouldn't imagine that we can eat and the things are that almost side effects of this experience can can be gained just because I think people and this is my explanation the translator is that people get hung on very much on to these side effects and they think how great it is but the reason why I say it's a side effect because the the practice is not done to attain or gain these uh supernatural powers but these are just symptoms which expresses what the encampment has reached. for is that all this is I'm telling all this just to indicate that what the practice can how it has uh take can take effect and particularly uh all practices all practices can be effective like this practice and particularly if one follows the in the line of guruatma sabha almost it has kind of extraordinary paths or effect of uh bringing this kind of uh you know symptoms almost of meditation and um he also mentions that um that Ewan follows the practice properly. One can when the time of death one can dissolve the ordinary the physical body with the spirit almost a resurrection and uh it can be a complete resurrection where you leave nothing behind or in order to satisfy some people who might think that well he may have just disappeared just to indicate that is not not just to disappear in another land but a true resurrection uh the nail and hair are left behind.

to show that it didn't just disappear somewhere else. So um that kind of you know uh science one can achieve. And to tell you uh us an example that my predecessor Duj had 13 disciples who attended the resurrection or this kind of spiritual attainment where the entire body is transmuted spiritually into rays of light.

connected to the fact that really the relative world is is our dream and that we can dream things into it or manipulate it by like we would our own dream. It is almost an yoga of illusion. And that is to say that to be able to perceive first understand not just uh perceive but to be truly understand that all phenomena external and internal are illusory and to assume or relatively all forms as the external forms as the mandala the internal beings as the deity and the body itself [music] also purified and thereby one and relate to all this almost like a play in the spiritual understanding in the depth of spiritual understanding.

So one could respect the relative and still know it was a dream. For instance, if I dream of a tiger, I would respect that tiger and run away but at the same time aware it's a dream. What does he do?

Uh as long as the relative sort of world or relative perceptions exist that we have to respect that is to say as long as the tiger chases we have to be aware of that is chasing us. Uh we can't just ignore that. We have to respect that relative till it manifests.

And m and the point is to be able to dissolve them as into illusion and almost gain and that insight and to be able to see them almost like a play like in the attainment it indicates. So till that point is reached, one must very very uh strongly and faithfully adhere to the relative and respect of. Is it is it fair though to practice in your dream say of for instance one reads in a text that if a tiger is approaching one should transform oneself into a ball of fire and and and enter into the tiger and explode it in the dream.

Uh is is this dream practice? And in the zopa chimbo or ati yoga teachings that all perceptions are dissolved into six or of paro states paro and that the the existence that we have at the moment is chu or the birth created or existence almost a pad state. So therefore we have for this world of ours the practice of visualization and practice connected with insight with which we dissolve the illusory external form and inner beings into the true essence that is for the this world of ours.

Fore and also the dream is treated as one state of pardo. And there is a special practice in to dissolve the dream into the intrinsics of nature. That is to say first of all there are practices to uh there are methods and practices to understand the dream the awareness of dream that you are dreaming which we often don't realize and then in recognizing to tackle it and to mold it in the way ultimately uh sometimes when you really gain control of a dream that you could uh go wherever you like in your dream to all the heavens of different Buddhas if you want to Well, you can direct in your dream and go in those spheres.

And also there is almost a parardo in the concentration as such in the concentration not concentration camp but concentration. What do you mean by bo for people who who might not sing in the something is neither here nor there you know it's it's in the middle of everything. So that is what is.

So in other words, it's BTO is the two is an indefinable uh level of experience which which neither is nor is not that that kind of thing. Something which is in the middle which is neither here or nor there exist between sometimes between existence and death or even in the existence also there is this end of existence that end and sort of in between as such that's what parto par is meaning middle so it's to is stuck stuck in the middle So different bardos are different are different kinds of dream states in a certain sense. Can you ask this holiness that that uh he says that there is a bardau of wake of of of there's a bau of this life there's a bardau uh between lifetimes uh but these are all characterized as kind of dream experiences that that could be uh that could be dreamed out of existence by the mind.

See the most important to understand the term parto parto meaning stuck in that. So if we in this life if you're stuck that is paro and so in order to unstuck ourselves so I mean this is the wrong right English to we need have the practice of visualization to dissolve and similarly even in dream we are stuck. So therefore this part so we need to dissolve the p state out loud.

Kuch's son is helping to translate here at a difficult point. Paro is the state between existence and non-existence. That is called a paro.

So I I I perhaps his holiness could continue with his explanation this point. I think I understand you understand. So the important point is about the the con the sometimes we get stuck also in our concentration.

something and that is the uh the past life in for instance this existence the we have taken can rebirth and the death or the end of life has not come. We are in the middle of it. And similarly even in s parardu that is the parardu in the state of meditation is the secession of the past thought the the future thought has not come that awareness of the present and there is also uh tackling of that part d resolving that inch and then There is the parardu which is often known in the west.

Parardu that is the the intermediate state between death after death and the after death and before one assumes a new life. And at that sort of death state that since our mind particularly at this state is very confused. So clarify that you know to almost like a mirror showing what our faults are, what we really look like.

So therefore uh almost bringing clarity in that state of mind is the or the death state. for and is the state when the kind of the mind or consciousness leaves the body. And as all the internal energies all leaves the body, it manifests externally into form of deities and you see them externally.

And when you you are not used to or when you have not the practice or the guidance, you see them as external things and find no recognition. But therefore there are practices to deal with those situations to tackle when such experiences come to be able to see them as the manifestation of the inner mind. It's almost like a child entering the uh bosom of the mother.

It's like uh One should be able to recognize the all the manifestation as the mind's own and entering like the uh the child recognize the mother and quite immediately goes into the uh womb and not not into into the bosom. And then there is the parardo or the parau that often we understand is that once you leave uh your once your consciousness leave the body and begin to travel before a Rebirth takes place that intermediate state is what is known as the sa problem at that stage is almost a break into lives and so we are confused if we have no link. So it is said almost like linking a pipe when broken in between.

So the flow of the water or the life made it smooth and even. So the teaching here is to connect the life before to the life after and linking it up in recognition. What about the possibility of we we always hear in the bodhicatta vow the implication is that one wants to be reborn again on the earth but uh it it seems it would be it would be it would be more helpful to be reborn in guru pabna sbava's realm and finish one's spiritual practice there and then from that state of perfection come back and be reborn on the earth if that if that is the bodhicattva for your Yes.

uh that would be a better way and uh and that is why if the devotees in this life can pray to gurum mache uh with confidence of faith and very strong devotion that at the time of death one may be able to transfer one's conscience into the world of gurupatma samba into the heaven of gurupatma sambawa whereby you're able to see him and receive teachings and already receive teachings that teaching that you've received you can clarify them make them effect in a certain sense I suppose we're in the heaven of guru saba right Wow. Yeah. for there is one can on a relative level there is a sphere of the heaven of gurupadmma Sambhaba that exists but uh also if our perceptions are ripe and clear then wherever we are that can be perceived and seen as the gurupatma samba was heaven or shingan but even in the relative sense there there is some sense of being being in his in his receiving his teachings at this point relative sense that is not in the not simply in the absolute sense but even in the relative sense there's this true continuing in this in the sense of of the of the relative relative practice it would be very wonderful if his holiness would give a final blessing, a perhaps a a chant, a prayer invoking Guru Padma Saba or whatever he feels would be auspicious.

Yeah, corridor. What was the meaning of that is uh I think I'll do a very rough translation is in the northwest country in the lotus out of the lotus Uh, you born miraculously and therefore you're known as the lotus born surrounded by the the retinue of many dhakinis and kandumas. I take to you and follow you and seek your guidance.

Therefore in order to bless us and inspire and grant us attainment do come admit us and guruatma samba do grant us your attainment or blessing in the form of attainment uh two kind of attainments ordinary for this life so that our circumstances may aid us into reaching enlightenment whereby all our impediments may remove before arising and helpful circumstances may gather and then ultimately the attainment is enlightenment itself. So sidu hung is uh invoking that hung is almost like the hook the invocation. We've been very honored to have with us a direct teacher in the line of guru Padma Simbab his holiness Dujam Rimpage and uh we'll be coming back in a few moments and announce there's going perhaps his holiness is giving some thought to starting a center here in New York and uh we'll um make various announcements uh in a moment.

Much thank you very very much for being here. I think at this point I'd like to say one word is that uh his holiness in fact is the direct incarnation and representative of gurupatma sambawa. I thought I I thought that the the eastern way was one of indirection and humility.

[laughter] We were try we were kind of uh uh skirting around that issue.